grandfather of hugh capet's wife
Ed Dunscombe
First time posting so please excuse. Am trying to verify identity of
the maternal grandfather of Adela, wife of Hugh Capet. Have varying
sources stating Otto the Great or Rollo the Dane
Ed Dunscombe
Alan B. Wilson
Rollo was the maternal grandfather of the wife of Hugh Capet. See
Schwenicke (ed.) Europaische Stammtafeln, ii, 76 and 79; Weis, Ancestral
Roots, line 144A: 19-20. Here is a brief ancestral list.
1 Adelaide (Alice) of Poitou. Born circa 950. Died 15 Jun 1004. She
married Hugh Capet of France King, 970.
2 Guillaume III of Aquitaine Duke. Born circa 925. Died 3 Apr 963. I
Count of Poitou, Count of Limonges and Auvergne. He married Adele (Gerloc)
of Normandy, 935.
3 Adele (Gerloc) of Normandy. Died after 969.
4 Ebles "Manzer" of Aquitaine Duke. Died 935. Count of Poitou; Count
of Auvergne.
6 Rollo \ Rollon of Normandy Duke. Born circa 848 in Maer, Normandy.
Died 931. Count of Rouen. First Duke of Normandy. He married Poppa de
Bayeux, 891.
7 Poppa of Bayeux. Born circa 872 in Bayeux, France.
I'm not sure what was to be excused, but whatever . . . :-)
--
Alan B. Wilson
abwi...@uclink2.berkeley.edu
Damien Rauline
of Saint Quentin and according to Douglas, it is not reliable (cf. an
article about the origins of Rollo, of 1944).
Damien Rauline
NYCA2
>I believed that the wife of Rollo was unknowm. The only source is Dudo
>of Saint Quentin and according to Douglas, it is not reliable (cf. an
>article about the origins of Rollo, of 1944).
>
> Damien Rauline
>
>
Rollo had at least two wives one was "Poppa of Normandy" and the other was
Gisela. Gisela was the daughter of King Charles of France. William
"LongSword" decends from "Poppa". This is the best information I have been
able to find so far.
Alan B. Wilson
While the few messages which I have posted to soc.genealogy.medieval
have been promptly gated to GEN-MEDIEVAL-L, the reverse has not been
true. The message which follows was originally posted to GEN-MEDIEVAL-L
on 15 Sep 1997.
I apologise for any redundancy which this reposting will create
(e.g., it will surely now be re-gated to GEN-MEDIEVAL-L.)
Damien Rauline <rau...@urpei.polymtl.ca> on Mon, 15 Sep 1997 wrote:
[snip]
>
> I believed that the wife of Rollon was unknown. The only source for Poppa is
>Dudo of Saint Quentin, and it is not reliable according to Douglas (in an
>article of 1944 about Rollon)
>
> Damien Rauline
Poppa, dau. of Cout Berengar of Bayeux, is listed as the wife of
Rollo, Duke of Normandy, in Schwenicke (ed.) ii, 79 and ii, 75 [as rev. in
iii(1)]; in Weis, Ancestral Roots, line 121E-18; in Moriarty, Plantagenet
Ancestry, p. 11; in Winkhaus, Ahnen zu Karl dem Grossen und Widukind, p.
133; in Joannis and Saint-Jouan, Les Seize Quartiers Genealogiques des
Capetiens, i, 4.
Settipani in La prehistoire des Capetiens, discusses Dudon's work and
Douglas's (and other) critiques on p. 218. On p. 219 and in the table on
p. 221 he considers Poppa as possibly a daughter of Wido, Count of Senlis
and his wife, a dau. of Pippin of Neustria. However, on p. 228, where
actually presenting a firm relationship, he speaks of ". . . Wilhelm
(Guillaime), Ier du nom, dit Longue Epee, comte de Rouen, . . . fils de
Rollon, comte des Normands, et Poppa de Bayeux."
While the identification of Poppa of Bayeux may be uncertain, many
reputable genealogists continue to name her.
merville
I found This
Béatrice
http://pauillac.inria.fr:3218/famille?m=NG&n=hugues+capet&t=PN
Ed Dunscombe <pic...@spectra.net> a écrit dans l'article
<341A22...@spectra.net>...
NYCA2
> Poppa, dau. of Cout Berengar of Bayeux, is listed as the wife of
>Rollo, Duke of Normandy, in
I have a source "FitzRandoph Family Traditions" written by L.V.F. Randolph
in 1907 and published by the New Jersey Historical Society which states
that Rollo also had a wife "Gisela" daughter of King Charles of France. His
case claims that this Gisela was mother to William, and therefore the other
Dukes of Normandy. I have found all of his other claims to be very accurate
although he does not give any source for this bit of information as it fell
out of the focus of this particular work.
I hope this is of some use.... I am also aware of the information which
indiactes "Poppa" as mother to William. As usual there is no difinitive answer.
Jim
Todd A. Farmerie
Alan B. Wilson wrote:
>
> Poppa, dau. of Cout Berengar of Bayeux, is listed as the wife of
> iii(1)]; in Weis, Ancestral Roots, line 121E-18; in Moriarty, Plantagenet
> Ancestry, p. 11; in Winkhaus, Ahnen zu Karl dem Grossen und Widukind, p.
> 133; in Joannis and Saint-Jouan, Les Seize Quartiers Genealogiques des
> Capetiens, i, 4.
>
> Settipani in La prehistoire des Capetiens, discusses Dudon's work and
> Douglas's (and other) critiques on p. 218. On p. 219 and in the table on
> p. 221 he considers Poppa as possibly a daughter of Wido, Count of Senlis
> and his wife, a dau. of Pippin of Neustria. However, on p. 228, where
> actually presenting a firm relationship, he speaks of ". . . Wilhelm
> (Guillaime), Ier du nom, dit Longue Epee, comte de Rouen, . . . fils de
> Rollon, comte des Normands, et Poppa de Bayeux."
>
> While the identification of Poppa of Bayeux may be uncertain, many
> reputable genealogists continue to name her.
Yet another possible lineage for Poppa is found in the work of Lot,
where he attempts to identify Berenger, Count of "Bayeux", and father of
Poppa, with the Count Berenger of Rennes, grandfather of Conan Berenger
of Brittany.
taf
DavidBotts
Hi Alan et all:
Thanks for setting the situation on Hugh's wife straight. Last night I was
working on that section of the Botts database and found all potential spouses
named. When there is an unresolved tie like this, what do you all do? My
present thought is to label her \Wife of Rollo\ and give alternative names in
notes. In such a case, I would drop all theidentified ancestors to each
alternative unless they tied to other relations in the database.
BTW: We are looking at the kins down from Plantagenet as below:
Boone<Morgan<..<Plantagenet>..>Randolph>Botts
V
...
V
Rice
The families of RICE, BOTTS and BOONE all connect through various cousins cc
1700-present. As of this week, it seems we can now kin all you distant
cousins of Botts to the first wife of Howard Robard Hughes, Jr., Ella Botts
Rice. No chance for any money though, as she divorced him almost 60 years ago
and died herself a few years back.
Todd A. Farmerie
Nathaniel Taylor wrote:
>
> In article <3433BD...@po.cwru.edu>, "Todd A. Farmerie"
> <ta...@po.cwru.edu> wrote:
>
> >Yet another possible lineage for Poppa is found in the work of Lot,
> >where he attempts to identify Berenger, Count of "Bayeux", and father of
> >Poppa, with the Count Berenger of Rennes, grandfather of Conan Berenger
> >of Brittany.
>
> forthcoming article by K.S.B. Keats-Rohan in the next issue of The
> American Genealogist.
I just happenned across what may be one of these in the Journal of
Medieval History 20:3-37, where, in an article entitled "Two studies in
North French Prosopography", Keats-Rohan briefly discusses the work of
Hubert Guillotel, whose reconstruction of the Breton succession includes
the relationship in question. It would seem that he shows a Berenger,
Count of Nuestria, who had two daughters. One of these was Poppa, the
wife of Rollo, while the other (unnamed) married a descendant of Erispoe
and was mother of Berenger, Count of Rennes (922-58). This adds two
generations to the Breton side of Lot's hypothesis (made without solid
dates for the Count of Rennes, and, it would seem, confusing two men of
the same name, grandfather and grandson).
This article, by the way, is a must-read for anyone interested in either
Maine family (both the early Rorgonids, and the later house which gave
rise to Hugh the Great's wife and the mother of Helias) or the House of
Belleme, with several other interesting tidbits (Mortain and Poitou to
name a couple) mentioned on the side.
taf
Stewart Baldwin
"Todd A. Farmerie" <ta...@po.cwru.edu> wrote:
>Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
>>
>> I just happenned across what may be one of these in the Journal of
>> Medieval History 20:3-37, where, in an article entitled "Two studies in
>> North French Prosopography", Keats-Rohan . . .[snip]
>> This article, by the way, is a must-read for anyone interested in either
>> Maine family (both the early Rorgonids, and the later house which gave
>> rise to Hugh the Great's wife and the mother of Helias) or the House of
>> Belleme, with several other interesting tidbits (Mortain and Poitou to
>> name a couple) mentioned on the side.
>After giving the first half of the article a more thorough read, I
>should add that she alludes to a manuscript which she was preparing
>(perhaps it has appeared by now?) on Breton nobility, which includes a
>suggested descent of the houses of Fougeres, Mayenne, Dinan, and Dol
>(and if one follows Round and his successors, also Fitz Alan and
>Stewart/Stuart) from the Rorgonids, and probably on to a Roger,
>contemporary with Charles Martel. (Banquo indeed! :)
If I recall correctly, the Stewarts are descended from the stewards of
Dol, and the supposed connection to the counts of Dol is no more than
a conjecture. Thus, it may not be relevant to the Stewarts.
Stewart Baldwin
Todd A. Farmerie
Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
>
> I just happenned across what may be one of these in the Journal of
> Medieval History 20:3-37, where, in an article entitled "Two studies in
> North French Prosopography", Keats-Rohan . . .[snip]
> This article, by the way, is a must-read for anyone interested in either
> Maine family (both the early Rorgonids, and the later house which gave
> rise to Hugh the Great's wife and the mother of Helias) or the House of
> Belleme, with several other interesting tidbits (Mortain and Poitou to
> name a couple) mentioned on the side.
After giving the first half of the article a more thorough read, I
should add that she alludes to a manuscript which she was preparing
(perhaps it has appeared by now?) on Breton nobility, which includes a
suggested descent of the houses of Fougeres, Mayenne, Dinan, and Dol
(and if one follows Round and his successors, also Fitz Alan and
Stewart/Stuart) from the Rorgonids, and probably on to a Roger,
contemporary with Charles Martel. (Banquo indeed! :)
taf
Todd A. Farmerie
Stewart Baldwin wrote:
>
> If I recall correctly, the Stewarts are descended from the stewards of
> Dol, and the supposed connection to the counts of Dol is no more than
> a conjecture. Thus, it may not be relevant to the Stewarts.
Yes, that's correct. I had in mind an NEHGR article from many years
ago. Perhaps Keets-Rohan will cover this (but then, it's been a couple
of years, so perhaps it has already been published somewhere)?
Back to the title of this thread, I was reading an article by Constance
Bouchard over the weekend on the naming patters for Medieval women (it
was in Medieval Prosopography, vol. 14, no. 1, pp. 1-?). She stated
that Adelaide, wife of Hugh Capet, is of unknown parentage. She was not
from the Poitou/Aquitaine family, that resulting from the misreading of
a document. She remains unidentified (although the names Adelaide and
Gisela (given to her daughter, and not a Robertin name) might suggest a
link with the later Caroligians - this is my own speculation, not
Bouchard's). Thus the identity of Poppa is probably not relevant to
Hugh Capet's wife.
taf
Alan B. Wilson
In article <344BB8...@po.cwru.edu>, "Todd A. Farmerie"
<ta...@po.cwru.edu> wrote:
Christian Settipani in "La prehistoire des Capetiens" (1993), pp.
415-419, discusses questions raised about the identity of Adelaide, wife
of Hugh Capet. He explicitly comments on Bouchard's article, "Patterns of
women's names in royal lineages, ninth-eleventh centuries," Medieval
prosopography, ix(1)(1988), pp. 1-32, as well as other objections by her
and by others. He concludes, I gather, the the objections are wanting,
and that William I of Poutou [III of Aquitaine] is Adelaide's father (as
in ES ii, 76).
A relevant paragraph (without diacritics or footnotes) reads: "Pour
en revenir a Adelais, la 'preuve' finale de sa filiation, ainsi que l'a
note A. Lewis, est peut-etre contenue dans un diplome de Lothaire
confirmant en 982 une donation qu'elle aurait faite au monastere de la
Trinite de Poitiers. Dans cet acte, il est precise qu'Adela, femme du duc
Eblo (sic), cousin (consobrinus) du Roi, etait la fille de la fondatrice
de la Trinite, Adela, qui avait effectue sa donation avec le consentement
de son fils le marquis Wilhelm. L'acte n'etant connu que par un vidimus
de 1377, l'editeur a corrige naturellement, 'Eblo', qui n'offre aucun sens
ici, en 'Hugo'. Si cette emendation etait fondee, nous aurions la preuve
finale du fait qu'Adelais, femme d'Hugues Capet, etait la fille de Wilhelm
III d'Aquitaine et d'Adela de Normandie, la soeur donc de Wilhelm IV. C.
Bouchard lui a cependant objecte le caractere conjectural de la
restitution : 'Hugh' pour 'Eblo', et la confusion du document qui aurtait
pour principaux acteurs Eblo et Adela, parents du duc Wilhelm III,
lesquels etaient pourtant decedes en 982. On comprend mal cette
objection. Le seul duc d'Aquitaine, dont la femme s'appelle Adela et qui
en eut un fils nomme Wilhelm, est Wilhelm III, epoux de Gerloc ou Adela de
Normandie (la seconde femme d'Ebalus etant bien surnommee Adela mais
n'etant pas la mere de Wilhelm III). De plus, on voit mal comment Ebalus
pouvait etre cousin de Lothaire. Sa lointaine origine carolingienne par
les femmes ne lui donne un ancetre commun avec Lothaire qu'en la personne
de Charlemagne. En outre le texte distingue entre l'epoux d'Adela, titre
'duc' et le comte de Poitiers Wilhelm, titre 'marquis'. Enfin,
contrairement a ce que dit C. Bouchard, le texte est parfaitement
coherent, une fois adopte la correction de nom. Lothaire confirme le don
fait par Adela, la femme de son cousin le duc Hugo, a la Trinite fondee
par la mere de celle-ci, Adela, avec le consentement de son fils, le
marquis Wilhelm."
I note that in his summary descent of the Robertiens, Table 11, he
lists Hugh Capet's wife as "Adelais d'Aquitaine."
I should appreciate an assessment by someone who can both read French
and weigh historical argument--skills in which I am sadly wanting.
Todd A. Farmerie
Don Stone wrote:
>
> Alan B. Wilson wrote:
> >
> > Christian Settipani in "La prehistoire des Capetiens" (1993), pp.
> > 415-419, discusses questions raised about the identity of Adelaide, wife
> > of Hugh Capet. He explicitly comments on Bouchard's article, "Patterns of
> > women's names in royal lineages, ninth-eleventh centuries," Medieval
> > prosopography, ix(1)(1988), pp. 1-32, as well as other objections by her
> > and by others. He concludes, I gather, the the objections are wanting,
> > and that William I of Poutou [III of Aquitaine] is Adelaide's father (as
> > in ES ii, 76).
> >
>
> Bouchard's 1988 Medieval Prosopography article; I wonder if it has any
> new arguments that are not included in her 1981 Speculum article.
>
> F. Lot proposed some years ago that Adelaide, wife of Hugh Capet, was
> from Poitou/Aquitaine. Bouchard (1981, note 17) argues that there is no
> convincing primary evidence supporting this and that there is good
> reason for believing that Adelaide was not related to the dukes of
> Aquitaine, namely, the marriage of Hildegard of Burgundy
> (great-granddaughter of Hugh and Adelaide) to William VI (VIII), Count
> of Poitou, Duke of Aquitaine, a marriage which would have been
> consanguineous within three degrees if Adelaide was the daughter of
> William I (III), Count of Poitou, Duke of Aquitaine. However, Settipani
> and Van Kerrebrouck (1993, pp. 415-419) don't find this argument
> compelling and ultimately are persuaded by the relationships given in a
> diploma of Lothair dated 982 that Adelaide is indeed the daughter of
> William I (III). (This requires substituting Hugo (Hugh) for Eblo in
> the diploma, but everything else fits.)
In the Medieval Prosopography article, Bouchard does not mention the
later marriage at all. It only mentions the 982 charter. The problem
she has with it is exactly the last one you state, that the original
document referes to Eblo and Adela. She points out that it could as
well be misdated, and that it is refering to Ebles, William I's father,
and his wife Adela, and has nothing to do with Hugh Capet at all. (Note
that this is a throw-away comment, without any serious analysis in the
MP article. I don't know if she has covered it in more detail
elsewhere, perhaps in her American Historical Review article?)
If we set this diploma aside (which I think we have to seriously
consider doing, since the original never names Hugh) what other evidence
is there for Adelaide, wife of Hugh Capet being from Aquitaine?
taf