Sprota de Senlis

[RMe...@aol.com]

Does anyone know if Sprota de Senlis, the wife of William Longsword, 2nd Duke
of Normandy is descended from Charlemagne, through his son Pepin. She is
listed that way in one book but I have never seen any other mention of her
ancestors.

Loyaulte Me Lie,
Rania

[Don Stone]

Rania:

Sprota is discussed in "Poppa of Bayeux and her Family" by K. S. B.
Keats-Rohan, _The American Genealogist_, vol. 72, nos. 3-4, July/October
1997. On page 192 she says, "Richard I was stated by Norman and
Frankish writers alike to have been the son of William Longsword and a
Breton concubine, who acquired the name of Sprota during the eleventh
century. One must probably accept that Richard was born to a concubine
and not to William's wife Liutgarde, but we certainly have not been told
the truth about Sprota. [new paragraph] For a reputable Frankish
chronicler like Flodoard, the information that William's concubine was
brought out of Brittany could easily have led to the assumption that she
was Breton--concubina brittana--but that might have been a false
assumption, since she could have been the daughter of a Viking chief
established in Brittany." On page 193, she says, "It may be that
Richard I's mother was a noble Breton of the family of Alan Barbetorte,
captured during William's vengeful campaign in Brittany in 931-33. The
birth of Richard a few years later perhaps helps to explain both the
timing of Athelstan's approach to William and the softening of William's
attitude to Alan."

-- Don Stone

[Todd A. Farmerie]

Don Stone wrote:
>
> Sprota is discussed in "Poppa of Bayeux and her Family" by K.
> S. B. Keats-Rohan, _The American Genealogist_, vol. 72, nos.

> 3-4, July/October 1997. . . . On page 193, she says, "It may

> be that Richard I's mother was a noble Breton of the family of
> Alan Barbetorte, captured during William's vengeful campaign
> in Brittany in 931-33. The birth of Richard a few years later
> perhaps helps to explain both the timing of Athelstan's
> approach to William and the softening of William's attitude to
> Alan."

While this speculation is certainly possible, the alternative is
likewise possible, that being that she was just some cute looking
Breton peasant that William took a liking to. That, however,
provides no opportunity for further genealogical research, so
tends to pale in comparison to the possibility of attaching her
to some noble house. My gut reaction is that, considering her
son Ralph was one of the main sources of the norman historian
Dudo, yet no such important connection was mentioned, she likely
did not have any hereditary recomendations when chosen by
Longsword.

taf

[Urania]

I agree with TAF.
I am inclined to believe that Sprota was a lady of humble birth. Her
name SOUNDS lower class to begin with and it is certainly not the KIND
of Christian name one associates with Breton ladies of rank at this
period. (If she had been called Judith or Ermengarde or Arembourg or
Berthe or Adelais or Alarun or Roiandrech I might have been of a
different opinion.)
Secondly, there is no mention of the connection in Dom Morice's
"Histoire" of Brittany which has extensive genealogical tables at the
end of Vol I. A good deal of his early work is now called in question,
but he was working from contemporary documents some of which are lost.
He is apt to make connections that later are shown to be incorrect
rather than the other way round, so if there had been the faintest
hint that Sprota was of aristocratic Breton birth (even if she had
been one of Alain Barbetorte's own bastards) he would have recorded
the fact.

Urania,

"Todd A. Farmerie" <farm...@interfold.com> wrote in message
news:3A332F85...@interfold.com...

[Jay Kotliar]

While it seems quite possible that Sprota was of humble birth, I am not
convinced that the name "sounds" lower class. Just because a name is
uncommon, does not mean it was never used. After all how many women of
noble birth were not recorded, at least on records that survive from this
period. Just in my own very limited database I came across that name
from the same period in nearby Normandy. Bernard, Lord Harcourt married
a Sprote or Sprota during the same period. (Well I think he married a
Sprote, my source on that one is the ever unreliable Royalty for
Commoners). Any rate I am not convinced that the name Sprote was not
used by highborn ladies, although I do think it likely that Sprota de
Senlis may herself have been a captive of humble birth. Anybody have
aconfirmation or rebuttal of the Sprote RC claims was married to
Bernard, Lord Harcourt of the 10th century and father of Torf? Or how
about records of other Sprotes?

[Todd A. Farmerie]

Jay Kotliar wrote:
>
> While it seems quite possible that Sprota was of humble birth, I am not
> convinced that the name "sounds" lower class. Just because a name is
> uncommon, does not mean it was never used. After all how many women of
> noble birth were not recorded, at least on records that survive from this
> period.

Your point is well taken, but your example flawed.

> Just in my own very limited database I came across that name
> from the same period in nearby Normandy. Bernard, Lord Harcourt married
> a Sprote or Sprota during the same period. (Well I think he married a
> Sprote, my source on that one is the ever unreliable Royalty for
> Commoners).

Unfortunate choice.

> Any rate I am not convinced that the name Sprote was not
> used by highborn ladies, although I do think it likely that Sprota de
> Senlis may herself have been a captive of humble birth.

It should be pointed out that the toponym "de Senlis" is
misplaced. It is based on the fact that Richard, her son, was
called nephew of Bernard of Senlis. It has been assumed by some
that this statement indicated the family relationship of his
mother Sprota. However, this is not the case, as elsewhere
William Longsword is likewise called Bernard's nephew, so the
connection must be through Poppa, not Sprota. All that is known
of her is that she was taken in Brittany.

> Anybody have
> aconfirmation or rebuttal of the Sprote RC claims was married to
> Bernard, Lord Harcourt of the 10th century and father of Torf?

This is in the pre-historic/fabulous perhiod of norman
"history". Torf is the oldest member of the family for whom any
mention can be found in the reliable historical record. As has
been discussed here before, the name Bernard is completely out of
place in a Norman family (it could, perhaps have been Berno, but
it is much more likely to be an invention from a time when
Bernard would have seemed appropriate to the less-than-critical
inventor. As to his wife Sprota, again, there is no historical
indication of her existance. Simply put, someone made these up,
in order to be able to assign names to the intervening
generations in the hinted kinship of Harcourt with the Norman
dukes. RC is again adrift in uncritical name-collecting here.

> Or how about records of other Sprotes?

I know of none, off hand, but this means nothing, as I can think
of other instances of unique names.

taf

[Aucht...@aol.com]

In a message dated 12/12/00 12:17:45 PM Eastern Standard Time,
farm...@interfold.com writes:

<< Jay Kotliar wrote:
>
> While it seems quite possible that Sprota was of humble birth, I am not
> convinced that the name "sounds" lower class. Just because a name is
> uncommon, does not mean it was never used. After all how many women of
> noble birth were not recorded, at least on records that survive from this
> period. >>

Hello Jay,

I often thought that of the Fugger family...

But alas they did have land and money despite their name. :-)

Maggie in Michigan