Thyra Danebod , queen of Denmark
Grethe Bachmann
Thyra (Danebod) , wife of king Gorm the Old of Denmark (-940), was a
daughter of king Aethelred 1. of the Anglo-Saxons(-871) ?? This means for
instance that she was a niece of king Alfred the Great (c 848-900) .
Other sources tells me:
a) - it was known that she came from another country and that Harold
Bluetooth inherited his royal power through her.
b) - she was the daughter of a Danish chief.
I really should like to know what´s the truth about Thyra!
Greetings
Grethe Bachmann
Todd A. Farmerie
> Can anyone tell me if this is right:
No, nor can anyone else.
> Thyra (Danebod) , wife of king Gorm the Old of Denmark (-940), was a
> daughter of king Aethelred 1. of the Anglo-Saxons(-871) ?? This means for
> instance that she was a niece of king Alfred the Great (c 848-900) .
This is found in one late scandinavian 'historical' source, while
contradicted by others. There is nothing in the historical
record to enable this ambiguity to be clarified, although I have
to say I find this connection to be most unlikely. Keep in mind
also that this death date for Gorm is not solid, so we don't even
know what the correct chronology for Thyra might be.
> Other sources tells me:
> a) - it was known that she came from another country and that Harold
> Bluetooth inherited his royal power through her.
This is problematic on several levels. Harald Bluetooth was son
of Gorm, who was a King in his own right, so he did not inherit
his royal power from his mother (at least not alone). Likewise,
if his mother was from some other country, how could this
transmit a right to rule Denmark to her son.
> b) - she was the daughter of a Danish chief.
Or king - usually identified as Harald Klak, but this is
problematic also.
> I really should like to know what´s the truth about Thyra!
Wouldn't we all!
taf
Grethe Bachmann
"Todd A. Farmerie" <farm...@interfold.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:3C8A8097...@interfold.com...
> Grethe Bachmann wrote:
>
> > Can anyone tell me if this is right:
> >
> No, nor can anyone else.
What a shame!
>
> > Thyra (Danebod) , wife of king Gorm the Old of Denmark (-940), was a
> > daughter of king Aethelred 1. of the Anglo-Saxons(-871) ?? This means
for
> > instance that she was a niece of king Alfred the Great (c 848-900) .
>
>
> This is found in one late scandinavian 'historical' source, while
> contradicted by others. There is nothing in the historical
> record to enable this ambiguity to be clarified, although I have
> to say I find this connection to be most unlikely. Keep in mind
> also that this death date for Gorm is not solid, so we don't even
> know what the correct chronology for Thyra might be.
>
The death date/year for Gorm is an about date.
> > Other sources tells me:
> > a) - it was known that she came from another country and that Harold
> > Bluetooth inherited his royal power through her.
>
>
> This is problematic on several levels. Harald Bluetooth was son
> of Gorm, who was a King in his own right, so he did not inherit
> his royal power from his mother (at least not alone). Likewise,
> if his mother was from some other country, how could this
> transmit a right to rule Denmark to her son.
Yes, I also thought this was problematic, but I wanted to bring it up.
Maybe something´s lost in my translation . It´s from a Danish source which
tells that he inherited his "kongeværdighed" after his mother, and I
couldn´t find a direct translation in my dictionary, so therefore I chose
royal power - in doubt about it myself because his father was in fact a
king. (Direct translation : kongeværdighed = dignity as king).
But it might refer to that Harold from his mother Thyra had more royal blood
than from his father Gorm - and then was chosen as king before anyone else.
Just a theory.
b) - she was the daughter of a Danish chief.
> Or king - usually identified as Harald Klak, but this is
> problematic also.
>
> > I really should like to know what´s the truth about Thyra!
>
> Wouldn't we all!
>
> taf
Yes it´s difficult to dig so deep down and back in history, when you have to
guess most of it! But thank you very much for your reply.
Kind regards
Grethe Bachmann
Phil Moody
> Thyra (Danebod) , wife of king Gorm the Old of Denmark (-940), was a
> daughter of king Aethelred 1. of the Anglo-Saxons(-871) ?? This means for
> instance that she was a niece of king Alfred the Great (c 848-900) .
PLM: As intriguing as the idea is, I think it may stem from what could be a
distortion of the facts surrounding Harald Bluetooth. There may be support
for an alliance of some kind between king Aethelstan and Harald Fairhair,
with Aethelstan's fostering of Hákon Haraldsson, but I know of nothing that
would indicate an alliance with the Danes, that might support this marriage.
I have my own unique theory that might explain how the Anglo-Saxon house of
Wessex, came to be associate with king Harald Bluetooth.
Harald Fairhair's youngest son Hákon was fostered by king Aethelstan
(Alfred's grandson), and Hákon became known as Athalsteins Fóstri. Hákon
became king Hákon I of Norway, and Snorri records that he had an only child
named Thora, but records nothing else of king Hákon's only heir, no
marriage, no death, nothing. Naturally, I find this puzzling; so I looked
for a solution.
I noted on Tompsett's site, that Harald Bluetooth had a son named Hákon
by a girl named Thora, but her parents are not named. Harald Bluetooth's
support of the sons of Erik Bloodaxe was the deciding factor in bringing
down king Hákon I and it would be only natural for him to take charge of
Thora Hákon's daughter, considering that none of Erik's sons took her.
Another thing that puzzled me was how Jarl Hákon went to Denmark for
help, when his battles became to heavy with the sons of Erik. It makes
absolutely no sense for Hákon to run to Harald Bluetooth, when Harald set
his enemies on the throne of Norway, in the first instance, but it would
make sense if Hákon knew Harald's queen, Thora Hákonsdotter. Jarl Hákon's
father, Sigurd Hákonsson was King Hákon I's greatest supporter; so I feel
confident that Thora and Jarl Hákon knew each other from childhood.
I know this is circumstantial, but when you consider that Harald named
his first born Hákon, I think it is very compelling. Assuming for a moment
that Harald did marry Thora, the daughter of king Hákon I, then she would
bring to Harald a legitimate claim to Norway and a tentative connection to
the house of Wessex, through her father's foster father, King Aethelstan.
That is, assuming that Hákon I did not marry into the house of Wessex, which
is certainly not impossible, and thus give Thora a legitimate connection to
Wessex.
Now, as I understand it, Thora and Thyra are interchangeable, and it
would be very easy to confuse the facts surrounding Harald's mother and
spouse.
Best Wishes,
Phil
Grethe Bachmann
What you tell me is very interesting. I must have been blind that I
couldn´t see the link between Hakon and Aethelstan. (Hakon Adelstensfostre
in Danish) - (and Hakon Athalsteins Fóstri as you wrote). I really hadn´t
connected him with king Aethelstan - and now it seems so obvious to me.
I also think it´s important to follow the names. There is often a reason
for it, if a new name suddenly pops up in a family. I think your theory
about Harold, Hakon and Thora is excellent and logical.
It´s very exciting to research these legendary men and women - maybe also
because I have to guess and reason about it. The material is diffuse and
insufficient and fix certain limits. I like to follow my intuition - but
then I sometimes end up following my most intriguing theory. And then
someone has to bring me down to earth!!
Thank you for your good info.
It´s appreciated.
Greetings
from
Grethe Bachmann
P.S. What is Tompsett´s site?
"Phil Moody" <moody...@cox.net> skrev i en meddelelse
news:009d01c1c816$2aed1220$28fb...@tu.ok.cox.net...
Phil Moody
> I made an error in sending the letter to two places, but now I´ll try
again. What you tell me is very interesting. I must have been blind that I
couldn´t see the link between Hakon and Aethelstan. (Hakon Adelstensfostre
in Danish) - (and Hakon Athalsteins Fóstri as you wrote). I really hadn´t
connected him with king Aethelstan - and now it seems so obvious to me.
PLM: You can glean some useful information from Snorri Sturlason's
Heimskringla:-)
> I also think it´s important to follow the names. There is often a reason
for it, if a new name suddenly pops up in a family. I think your theory
about Harold, Hakon and Thora is excellent and logical.
PLM: It is good to know that I'm not the only one who thinks so:-) It was
late when I wrote; so I was concerned that I might not be getting the gist
of it expressed adequately. I have not seen this supposition before, but
then I can't read the language of contemporary Scandinavian scholars; so if
you find this theory expressed elsewhere, I would appreciate hearing about
it.
> It´s very exciting to research these legendary men and women - maybe also
because I have to guess and reason about it. The material is diffuse and
insufficient and fix certain limits. I like to follow my intuition - but
then I sometimes end up following my most intriguing theory. And then
someone has to bring me down to earth!!
PLM: I rely heavily on my intuition, also:-)
> P.S. What is Tompsett´s site?
PLM: It is a genealogical website, that has a vast amount of information,
but it is not always accurate. This is primarily because the creator of the
website, Brian Tompsett does not consider the veracity of the information he
puts in it. If he finds a genealogical link in a reference he includes it
without question and he has no desire to correct it, if someone tries to
correct it.
http://www.dcs.hull.ac.uk/public/genealogy/GEDCOM.html choose the "Royal
Family Genealogy" link. On this page choose "Denmark" and selecting Harald
Gormsson, you will find this page:
http://www.dcs.hull.ac.uk/cgi-bin/gedlkup/n=royal?royal05349
Best Wishes,
Phil
> > > Thyra (Danebod) , wife of king Gorm the Old of Denmark (-940), was a
> > > daughter of king Aethelred 1. of the Anglo-Saxons(-871) ?? This means
> for
> > > instance that she was a niece of king Alfred the Great (c 848-900) .
> >
Grethe Bachmann
"Phil Moody" <moody...@cox.net> skrev i en meddelelse
news:004601c1c86e$2e2ad000$28fb...@tu.ok.cox.net...
> Grethe Bachmann wrote:
>
> > I made an error in sending the letter to two places, but now I´ll try
> again. What you tell me is very interesting. I must have been blind that
I
> couldn´t see the link between Hakon and Aethelstan. (Hakon Adelstensfostre
> in Danish) - (and Hakon Athalsteins Fóstri as you wrote). I really
hadn´t
> connected him with king Aethelstan - and now it seems so obvious to me.
>
> PLM: You can glean some useful information from Snorri Sturlason's
> Heimskringla:-)
I´ll do that.
> > I also think it´s important to follow the names. There is often a
reason
> for it, if a new name suddenly pops up in a family. I think your theory
> about Harold, Hakon and Thora is excellent and logical.
>
> PLM: It is good to know that I'm not the only one who thinks so:-) It was
> late when I wrote; so I was concerned that I might not be getting the gist
> of it expressed adequately. I have not seen this supposition before, but
> then I can't read the language of contemporary Scandinavian scholars; so
if
> you find this theory expressed elsewhere, I would appreciate hearing about
> it.
I will remember this. If I find something I will tell you. That´s a
promise.
> > It´s very exciting to research these legendary men and women - maybe
also
> because I have to guess and reason about it. The material is diffuse and
> insufficient and fix certain limits. I like to follow my intuition - but
> then I sometimes end up following my most intriguing theory. And then
> someone has to bring me down to earth!!
>
> PLM: I rely heavily on my intuition, also:-)
Cheers to intuition!
> > P.S. What is Tompsett´s site?
>
> PLM: It is a genealogical website, that has a vast amount of information,
> but it is not always accurate. This is primarily because the creator of
the
> website, Brian Tompsett does not consider the veracity of the information
he
> puts in it. If he finds a genealogical link in a reference he includes it
> without question and he has no desire to correct it, if someone tries to
> correct it.
I found this website, and it´s amazing. I think it´s okay that BT avoids the
usual overcritical view of historical data. (which can be quite boring).
Then you can sort it out yourself and compare with other material and make
your own opinion about the stuff. And I understand why he doesn´t correct.
It´s huge material.
I read the section about Harald Gormsson. It´s great - and much, much more
great and useful information on this Tompsett´s site. He´s a jolly good
fellow ! I haven´t seen anything like this about medieval genealogy
before.
Thank you.
Grethe Bachmann.
Phil Moody
so if you find this theory expressed elsewhere, I would appreciate hearing
about it.
> > I will remember this. If I find something I will tell you. That´s a
promise.
PLM: Thanks, I would appreciate that!
> I found this website, and it´s amazing. I think it´s okay that BT avoids
the
> usual overcritical view of historical data. (which can be quite boring).
> Then you can sort it out yourself and compare with other material and make
> your own opinion about the stuff. And I understand why he doesn´t correct.
> It´s huge material.
PLM: Exactly so!
> I read the section about Harald Gormsson. It´s great - and much, much
more
> great and useful information on this Tompsett´s site. He´s a jolly good
> fellow ! I haven´t seen anything like this about medieval genealogy
> before.
PLM: Yes, I'm sure it was a great deal of work putting his site together; so
he has my gratitude for that. I think it could be better documented, but I
won't belabour the point because I'm not one to look a gift horse in the
mouth:-)
Best Wishes,
Phil
> > > > > Thyra (Danebod) , wife of king Gorm the Old of Denmark (-940), was
a
> > > > > daughter of king Aethelred 1. of the Anglo-Saxons(-871) ?? This
> means
> > > for
> > > > > instance that she was a niece of king Alfred the Great (c 848-900)
.
> > > >
Jared L. Olar
On Sun, 10 Mar 2002 03:30:07 -0600 "Phil Moody" <moody...@cox.net>
writes:
> Harald Fairhair's youngest son Hákon was fostered by king
> Aethelstan (Alfred's grandson), and Hákon became known
> as Athalsteins Fóstri. Hákon became king Hákon I of
> Norway, and Snorri records that he had an only child
> named Thora, but records nothing else of king Hákon's
> only heir, no marriage, no death, nothing. Naturally, I find this
> puzzling;
Yes, I thought that puzzling too.
> so I looked for a solution.
> I noted on Tompsett's site, that Harald Bluetooth had a son
> named Hákon by a girl named Thora, but her parents are not
> named.
I've seen Harald Bluetooth with a wife Thora as well, but do not know
what source or sources back it up.
> Harald Bluetooth's support of the sons of Erik Bloodaxe
> was the deciding factor in bringing down king Hákon I and
> it would be only natural for him to take charge of Thora
> Hákon's daughter, considering that none of Erik's sons
> took her.
That sounds reasonable enough.
It should be borne in mind, of course, that Harald's support of the sons
of Erik Bloodyaxe is connected to the fact that (according to Theodorich
the Monk) Erik's wife Gunnhild Kingsmother was Harald's sister.
> Another thing that puzzled me was how Jarl Hákon went to Denmark
> for help, when his battles became to heavy with the sons of Erik.
> It makes absolutely no sense for Hákon to run to Harald Bluetooth,
> when Harald set his enemies on the throne of Norway, in the first
> instance, but it would make sense if Hákon knew Harald's queen,
> Thora Hákonsdotter. Jarl Hákon's father, Sigurd Hákonsson was
> King Hákon I's greatest supporter; so I feel confident that Thora
> and Jarl Hákon knew each other from childhood.
But then we must weigh this against Harald being the uncle of the sons of
Erik. Would simple friendship between Jarl Hakon and Harald's queen have
been sufficient to overcome the ties of blood kinship between Harald and
the sons of Harald's sister?
> I know this is circumstantial, but when you consider that Harald
> named his firstborn Hákon, I think it is very compelling. Assuming
> for a moment that Harald did marry Thora, the daughter of king
> Hákon I, then she would bring to Harald a legitimate claim to
> Norway and a tentative connection to the house of Wessex,
> through her father's foster father, King Aethelstan. That is,
> assuming that Hákon I did not marry into the house of Wessex,
> which is certainly not impossible, and thus give Thora a legitimate
> connection to Wessex.
Yes, the sagas do not identify the name of Hakon the Good's wife or
consort, mother of his only child Thora.
> Now, as I understand it, Thora and Thyra are interchangeable,
> and it would be very easy to confuse the facts surrounding Harald's
> mother and spouse.
>
> Best Wishes,
> Phil
Adam of Bremen refers to a Danish woman "Thore" who is called "Thyra" in
the sagas, so there might be something to Thora and Thyra being
interchangeable.
However, as interesting as your suggestion is, I think it doubtful that
the story of the Wessex connection of Thyra Danebod arose as you suggest.
I think it is more likely that Gorm the Old was mistakenly identified
with the Danish kings named Gorm or Guthram who were active in England
about the time of King Alfred the Great, and thus a story was invented
linking Gorm's wife Thyra with the Wessex dynasty.
Saxo Grammaticus, writing in the early 1200s, is I think the first to
claim that Thyra was daughter of Aethelred. Saxo mentions a Danish king
named Gorm the Englishman, who was succeeded by his son Harald, a
nonentity. This Harald is then followed by Gorm the Old, whose wife
Thyra is claimed by Saxo to be Aethelred's daughter--Gorm is later
succeeded by his son Harald.
So we have Gorm, Harald, Gorm, Harald.
Could be an accidental duplication of names in an old kinglist that Saxo
used in writing his Danish history. Thus the first Gorm, who I think has
something to do with the historical Guthram who was Alfred's enemy, might
be a doublet of the second Gorm. The first Gorm would be the one who had
dealings with the House of Wessex, leading to the invention of a Wessex
connection for the second Gorm in the person of his wife.
That's my theory anyway.
". . . quoniam et Romano Episcopo haec est consuetudo."
Nicaea I Canon VI
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Phil Moody
> I've seen Harald Bluetooth with a wife Thora as well, but do not know
> what source or sources back it up.
PLM: Unfortunately, I do not know where Thora is found either, and Tompsett
has inadequately documented this assertion. If anyone can recall what
reference mentions Thora, spouse of king Harald Gormsson, I would appreciate
the information immensely.
> It should be borne in mind, of course, that Harald's support of the sons
> of Erik Bloodyaxe is connected to the fact that (according to Theodorich
> the Monk) Erik's wife Gunnhild Kingsmother was Harald's sister.
PLM: True, but I'm not sure what to believe at this point. Snorri has that
Gunnhilde is the daughter of Ozur Tote from Halogaland district and further
records that King Harald grafeld Eiriksson is his foster son, and this is
not likely if he was a nephew. I will need to study this further before
accepting either supposition.
> But then we must weigh this against Harald being the uncle of the sons of
> Erik. Would simple friendship between Jarl Hakon and Harald's queen have
> been sufficient to overcome the ties of blood kinship between Harald and
> the sons of Harald's sister?
PLM: Yes, if Eiriks sons were the nephews of Harald Blåtand, then it would
weaken this facet of my theory, but I don't see this as an insuperable
issue. Curiously, I found this in the S. Laing translation of the
"Heimskringla", online, while refreshing my memory; [Jarl Hákon speaking to
Gold Harald (Knut Gormsson, nephew of Harald Blåtand)] "Take first that
kingdom. King Harald is now very old, and has but one son, and cares but
little about him, as he is but the son of a concubine."
Could this be a reference to Thora and Hákon Haraldsson? Were all of
Harald's wives concubines, or more specifically, was Sweyn Forkbeard's
mother a concubine?
> So we have Gorm, Harald, Gorm, Harald.
> Could be an accidental duplication of names in an old kinglist that Saxo
> used in writing his Danish history. Thus the first Gorm, who I think has
> something to do with the historical Guthram who was Alfred's enemy, might
> be a doublet of the second Gorm. The first Gorm would be the one who had
> dealings with the House of Wessex, leading to the invention of a Wessex
> connection for the second Gorm in the person of his wife.
>
PLM: I know Gorm is probably a contraction of Guthrum, but I don't recall
the East Anglian king Guthrum ever having a son named Harald, and IIRC,
Guthrum was succeeded by Erik. If Guthrum did have a son named Harald, then
your theory is plausible. Naturally, I'm still partial to my own theory:-)
Best Wishes,
Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jared L. Olar" <ardg...@juno.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 10:07 PM
Subject: Re: Thyra Danebod , queen of Denmark
Jared L. Olar
writes:
> "Jared L. Olar" wrote:
>
> > I've seen Harald Bluetooth with a wife Thora as well, but do not
> > know what source or sources back it up.
>
> PLM: Unfortunately, I do not know where Thora is found either, and
> Tompsett has inadequately documented this assertion. If anyone can
> recall what reference mentions Thora, spouse of king Harald
> Gormsson, I would appreciate the information immensely.
I've done some digging in _Scriptores rerum Danicarum_, which sheds some
light on the (reputed) wives of Harald Bluetooth.
First, in the _Annales Rerum Danicarum Esromenses a Nato Christo ad Annum
1307_, it says under year 943, "Nec mora, baptizatus est ipse HARALDUS
cum uxore sua GUNNILD & filio parvulo Swen . . . ."
That refers to a Gunnhild as a wife of Harald Gormsson (note that it does
not identify her as mother of Svein Forkedbeard--more on that below).
Also, in Petrus Olaffson's chronicle, _Petri Olai Minoritae Roskildensis
Chronica Regum Danorum, a Dano ad obitum Johannis Regis_, we read the
following: "HARALD BLATAN, filius Gorm, qui regnavit L. annis super
Daciam, Angliam & Alemaniam . . . . Hic habuit Geritham (Gyrde) filiam
Regis Svetie BYORNONIS in uxorem . . . ."
Here we find a Gyrith, daughter of King Bjorn of the Swedes, as a wife of
Harald Gormsson.
Finally, in the _Series Runica Regum Daniae prima_, we read, "Tha var
GORM Kunung Gampi sun. THYRI het Drotning hans. Tha var HARALTH BLATAN
Kunung, foerste Kristen Kunung i Danmurk. THORE het Drotning hans. Tha
var SUEN THYGHESKEG, Haralths sun, Kunung. THYRA het Drotning hans, ok
anner YMMA. Tha var Gamle KNUT Kunung. ALUITHA het Drotning hans, ok
anner YMMA. . . ."
That refers to a Thora as a wife of Harald Gormsson.
So, these sources (none of which can be regarded as unimpeachable, to say
the least) each mention a different wife for Harald Bluetooth--Gunnhild,
Gyrith, and Thora.
As if three wives weren't enough for King Harald, Gwyn Jones also
mentions this on page 127 of _A History of the Vikings_ (1968, 1984):
"Harald seems to have married twice, and the last of his wives, wed
probably after 965, was a Wendish princess. A runic stone found in the
west wall of Soender Vissing church, in mid-eastern Jutland, bears the
inscription, 'Tovi [or Tova], Mistivoj's daughter, wife of Harald the
Good, Gorm's son, had this memorial made for her mother.'"
So, that gives us four names to choose from: Gunnhild, Gyrith, Thora,
and Tovi.
If I remember correctly, I think it has been suggested that Gunnhild and
Gyrith were the same woman (though the abovementioned tradition of royal
Swedish parentage is unreliable). Be that as it may, it seems quite
likely to me that the Queen Thora of the _Series Runica prima_ is none
other than the Wendish princess Tovi or Tova--it would be very simple for
a scribal error to turn Tova into Thora, or Tovi into Thore.
If that is where Harald's queen Thora came from, that would mean Harald
didn't marry Thora, only child of Hakon the Good.
Unless, of course, Harald's wife Tovi is a distinct individual from his
wife Thora . . . .
> > It should be borne in mind, of course, that Harald's support of
> > the sons of Erik Bloodyaxe is connected to the fact that
> > (according to Theodorich the Monk) Erik's wife Gunnhild
> > Kingsmother was Harald's sister.
>
> PLM: True, but I'm not sure what to believe at this point. Snorri
> has that Gunnhilde is the daughter of Ozur Tote from Halogaland
> district and further records that King Harald grafeld Eiriksson is
> his foster son, and this is not likely if he was a nephew. I will need
> to study this further before accepting either supposition.
As far as I can tell, the Ozur Toti story is just a part of the bad
reputation Queen Gunnhild had in saga tradition--giving her an origin in
Halogaland made it easier to turn her into the apprentice of two witches
from Lappland. Of the two versions of her parentage, I personally find
Theoderich's more believable.
> Curiously, I found this in the S. Laing translation of the
> "Heimskringla", online, while refreshing my memory; [Jarl Hákon
> speaking to Gold Harald (Knut Gormsson, nephew of Harald
> Blåtand)] "Take first that kingdom. King Harald is now very old,
> and has but one son, and cares but little about him, as he is but
> the son of a concubine."
> Could this be a reference to Thora and Hákon Haraldsson? Were
> all of Harald's wives concubines, or more specifically, was
> Sweyn Forkbeard's mother a concubine?
In that passage, Snorri is alluding to the account found one of his
sources _Jomsvikinga Saga_, where Svein Tjuguskegg is the illegitimate
son of Harald Gormsson's by his concubine Aesa or Saum-Aesa. That saga
also tells of the conspiracy of Jarl Hakon and Guld-Harald against Harald
Gormsson. Since Snorri got the story of Guld-Harald's conspiracy from
_Jomsvikinga_, in all likelihood it is also from _Jomsvikinga_ that he
derived the above remark about Harald having just one son, and that by a
concubine, a son for whom he had little love. That is the precise
depiction of Harald and his son Svein in _Jomsvikinga_.
But just because the sagas made Svein into the son of a concubine doesn't
mean he really was born of a concubine. The saga-writers had to explain
why Svein turned parricide--why he rebelled against his father and
brought about his death on the battlefield. The motif of an unloved
bastard son lashing out against his father was perhaps an easy
explanation for them to latch onto. For all we know, Svein was a
legitimate son of Harald.
On the other hand, knowing what we do about pagan Scandinavian kings and
their apparent harem-building proclivities, it's not impossible that
before his conversion to Christianity Harald Gormsson had more than one
"consort" in addition to his chief wife or Queen. In that case the
saga-tradition of Svein's birth may well have been grounded in fact.
> > So we have Gorm, Harald, Gorm, Harald. Could be an
> > accidental duplication of names in an old kinglist that Saxo
> > used in writing his Danish history. Thus the first Gorm, who I
> > think has something to do with the historical Guthram who
> > was Alfred's enemy, might be a doublet of the second Gorm.
> > The first Gorm would be the one who had dealings with the
> > House of Wessex, leading to the invention of a Wessex
> > connection for the second Gorm in the person of his wife.
>
> PLM: I know Gorm is probably a contraction of Guthrum, but I don't
> recall the East Anglian king Guthrum ever having a son named
> Harald, and IIRC, Guthrum was succeeded by Erik. If Guthrum
> did have a son named Harald, then your theory is plausible.
> Naturally, I'm still partial to my own theory:-)
>
> Best Wishes,
> Phil
I don't think my theory depends on the historical Guthram having had a
historical son Harald (though it's not impossible that he had a son so
named). All I need for my theory is for the legendary Gorm Anglicus to
have a legendary son Harald.
As for a possible historical antecedent for Gorm Anglicus' legendary son
Harald the Niggard, I suppose it's not impossible that the Icelandic
sagas might be correct to make Thyra Danebod the daughter of a Danish
king named Harald. The sagas say Thyra was a daughter of Klakk-Harald of
Jutland (or of Holtsetaland), but I suspect that might have arisen from
confusion with the legendary Thyra, daughter of Klakk-Harald, who is said
to have married the Norwegian kinglet Sigurd Hjort. As for the tradition
that Thyra Danebod was the daughter of a Harald, perhaps she really was
the daughter of some Danish kinglet named Harald, a figure who was later
(despite the chronological problems) merged with the more well-known
Harald Klak.
It's a conjecture, and one that is admittedly incapable of proof, but I
thought I'd throw it out there in case you found it a little helpful.
At your service,
Jared
Stewart Baldwin
wrote:
[much snipping]
>So, that gives us four names to choose from: Gunnhild, Gyrith, Thora,
>and Tovi.
Of these, two rest on good authority. Tovi is mentioned in a
contemporary runic inscription, and Gunnhild is mentioned by Adam of
Bremen, writing less than a hundred years after Harald's death. While
Adam does not explicitly state that Gunnhild was the mother of Svein,
he states that Harald was accompanied at his baptism by his wife
Gunnhild and his son Svein. All of the other sources giving the other
alleged wives are MUCH later, and open to serious question.
>As far as I can tell, the Ozur Toti story is just a part of the bad
>reputation Queen Gunnhild had in saga tradition--giving her an origin in
>Halogaland made it easier to turn her into the apprentice of two witches
>from Lappland. Of the two versions of her parentage, I personally find
>Theoderich's more believable.
While Theodoricus Monachus did refer to Gunnhild on a number of
occasions, I can find no place that he mentioned her parentage.
However, he does say that Harald Gormsson proposed marriage to her as
a ruse to lure her to Denmark, which would make no sense at all unless
she was NOT Gorm's sister. I believe that Historia Norwegiae is the
only source to make the claim that Gunnhild was a daughter of Gorm.
Stewart Baldwin
Grethe Bachmann
I have one _ crazy_ question! I´ve got a source in a genealogical key
telling me that the Wendic princess Tufu/Tovi Mistivojsdaughter is the same
as Gunhild. It really sounds odd and doubtful, but I thought I would ask you
anyway.
Kind regards
Grethe Bachmann
on Mon, 11 Mar 2002 23:43:10 -0600 "Phil Moody" <moody...@cox.net>
So, that gives us four names to choose from: Gunnhild, Gyrith, Thora,
and Tovi.
If I remember correctly, I think it has been suggested that Gunnhild and
Gyrith were the same woman (though the abovementioned tradition of royal
Swedish parentage is unreliable). Be that as it may, it seems quite
likely to me that the Queen Thora of the _Series Runica prima_ is none
other than the Wendish princess Tovi or Tova--it would be very simple for
a scribal error to turn Tova into Thora, or Tovi into Thore.
If that is where Harald's queen Thora came from, that would mean Harald
didn't marry Thora, only child of Hakon the Good.
Unless, of course, Harald's wife Tovi is a distinct individual from his
wife Thora . . . .
> > It should be borne in mind, of course, that Harald's support of
> > the sons of Erik Bloodyaxe is connected to the fact that
> > (according to Theodorich the Monk) Erik's wife Gunnhild
> > Kingsmother was Harald's sister.
>
> PLM: True, but I'm not sure what to believe at this point. Snorri
> has that Gunnhilde is the daughter of Ozur Tote from Halogaland
> district and further records that King Harald grafeld Eiriksson is
> his foster son, and this is not likely if he was a nephew. I will need
> to study this further before accepting either supposition.
As far as I can tell, the Ozur Toti story is just a part of the bad
reputation Queen Gunnhild had in saga tradition--giving her an origin in
Halogaland made it easier to turn her into the apprentice of two witches
from Lappland. Of the two versions of her parentage, I personally find
Theoderich's more believable.
> Curiously, I found this in the S. Laing translation of the
At your service,
Jared
Nicaea I Canon VI
"Stewart Baldwin" <sba...@mindspring.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:3c918d00...@news.mindspring.com...
Stewart Baldwin
Baldwin) wrote:
>However, he does say that Harald Gormsson proposed marriage to her as
>a ruse to lure her to Denmark, which would make no sense at all unless
>she was NOT Gorm's sister.
oops.
Obviously, I should have ended the sentence with "not HARALD'S sister"
(or "not Gorm's DAUGHTER.")
Stewart Baldwin
Phil Moody
> First, in the _Annales Rerum Danicarum Esromenses a Nato Christo ad Annum
> 1307_, it says under year 943, "Nec mora, baptizatus est ipse HARALDUS
> cum uxore sua GUNNILD & filio parvulo Swen . . . ."
> That refers to a Gunnhild as a wife of Harald Gormsson (note that it does
> not identify her as mother of Svein Forkedbeard--more on that below).
PLM: I am unfamiliar with the provenance of this source; so can you tell me
a little bit about it, Jared? Is it a contemporary record and how did they
come by this information?
> Also, in Petrus Olaffson's chronicle, _Petri Olai Minoritae Roskildensis
> Chronica Regum Danorum, a Dano ad obitum Johannis Regis_, we read the
> following: "HARALD BLATAN, filius Gorm, qui regnavit L. annis super
> Daciam, Angliam & Alemaniam . . . . Hic habuit Geritham (Gyrde) filiam
> Regis Svetie BYORNONIS in uxorem . . . ."
> Here we find a Gyrith, daughter of King Bjorn of the Swedes, as a wife of
> Harald Gormsson.
PLM: I was aware of this marriage, but I had her name asd Gyrithe, or
something to that effect (it is on my other PC). However, I have never seen
this text you quote, and I find it very interesting; so thanks for that! Is
this saying that Harald was also king of Angliam and Alemaniam and what
teritories are ment? Naturally, East Anglia springs to mind, but it could be
referring to England as well.
> Finally, in the _Series Runica Regum Daniae prima_, we read, "Tha var
> GORM Kunung Gampi sun. THYRI het Drotning hans. Tha var HARALTH BLATAN
> Kunung, foerste Kristen Kunung i Danmurk. THORE het Drotning hans. Tha
> var SUEN THYGHESKEG, Haralths sun, Kunung. THYRA het Drotning hans, ok
> anner YMMA. Tha var Gamle KNUT Kunung. ALUITHA het Drotning hans, ok
> anner YMMA. . . ."
> That refers to a Thora as a wife of Harald Gormsson.
PLM: Very interesting, Jared! You appear to have proven my assertion that
Thyri is the same as Thora; so thanks:-) I also received Hollander's
"Heimskringla" and "The Saga of the Jómsvíkings", which I had ordered before
this thread began, and I note Hollander makes Olaf Tryggvason's wife Thyri,
daughter of Harald and sister of king Swein. She was also known as Thora,
from other sources I have seen; so that matter is resolved, to my
satisfaction.
Jared, would it be asking to much, if I asked for a literal translation
of the above quotation?
> If I remember correctly, I think it has been suggested that Gunnhild and
> Gyrith were the same woman (though the abovementioned tradition of royal
> Swedish parentage is unreliable). Be that as it may, it seems quite
> likely to me that the Queen Thora of the _Series Runica prima_ is none
> other than the Wendish princess Tovi or Tova--it would be very simple for
> a scribal error to turn Tova into Thora, or Tovi into Thore.
PLM: This is certainly possible, but I will wait until I read more on the
Gunnhild = Tovi hypothisis before drawing any conclusions here.
> If that is where Harald's queen Thora came from, that would mean Harald
> didn't marry Thora, only child of Hakon the Good.
> Unless, of course, Harald's wife Tovi is a distinct individual from his
> wife Thora . . . .
PLM: Putting the Tovi and/or Thora question aside, there still remains the
apparent fact that Harald named a son Hákon to be dealt with. I have
considered that king Harald and Earl Hákon named one of their sons after the
others family, out of mutual respect, but I find this somewhat of a
superficial explaination; so I don't give it much weight:-)
Another thing to consider is if Gorm did marry Thyri of Jutland, then
one must consider Snorri's assertion that Erik Bloodaxe was the grandson of
a certain king Erik of Jutland, and therefore, Harald Gormson would be
related to Harald Fairhair's Jutland wife, on the maternal side.
> On the other hand, knowing what we do about pagan Scandinavian kings and
> their apparent harem-building proclivities, it's not impossible that
> before his conversion to Christianity Harald Gormsson had more than one
> "consort" in addition to his chief wife or Queen. In that case the
> saga-tradition of Svein's birth may well have been grounded in fact.
PLM: Why suppose that Harald put away his concubines when he became
Christian?
> As for a possible historical antecedent for Gorm Anglicus' legendary son
> Harald the Niggard, I suppose it's not impossible that the Icelandic
> sagas might be correct to make Thyra Danebod the daughter of a Danish
> king named Harald. The sagas say Thyra was a daughter of Klakk-Harald of
> Jutland (or of Holtsetaland), but I suspect that might have arisen from
> confusion with the legendary Thyra, daughter of Klakk-Harald, who is said
> to have married the Norwegian kinglet Sigurd Hjort. As for the tradition
> that Thyra Danebod was the daughter of a Harald, perhaps she really was
> the daughter of some Danish kinglet named Harald, a figure who was later
> (despite the chronological problems) merged with the more well-known
> Harald Klak.
>
PLM: I see that Saxo has your same line, Gorm the Englishman, Harald, Gorm
and Harald, and also the Thyra, daughter of Aethelred supposition. If a Gorm
did marry Aethelred's daughter, then Gorm the Englishman would fit
chronologically and not Gorm the Old.
Best Wishes,
Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jared L. Olar" <ardg...@juno.com>
To: <moody...@cox.net>
Cc: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 11:06 PM
Subject: Re: Thyra Danebod , queen of Denmark
> On Mon, 11 Mar 2002 23:43:10 -0600 "Phil Moody" <moody...@cox.net>
> writes:
> > "Jared L. Olar" wrote:
> >
> > > I've seen Harald Bluetooth with a wife Thora as well, but do not
> > > know what source or sources back it up.
> >
> > PLM: Unfortunately, I do not know where Thora is found either, and
> > Tompsett has inadequately documented this assertion. If anyone can
> > recall what reference mentions Thora, spouse of king Harald
> > Gormsson, I would appreciate the information immensely.
>
> I've done some digging in _Scriptores rerum Danicarum_, which sheds some
> light on the (reputed) wives of Harald Bluetooth.
>
> First, in the _Annales Rerum Danicarum Esromenses a Nato Christo ad Annum
> 1307_, it says under year 943, "Nec mora, baptizatus est ipse HARALDUS
> cum uxore sua GUNNILD & filio parvulo Swen . . . ."
>
> That refers to a Gunnhild as a wife of Harald Gormsson (note that it does
> not identify her as mother of Svein Forkedbeard--more on that below).
>
> Also, in Petrus Olaffson's chronicle, _Petri Olai Minoritae Roskildensis
> Chronica Regum Danorum, a Dano ad obitum Johannis Regis_, we read the
> following: "HARALD BLATAN, filius Gorm, qui regnavit L. annis super
> Daciam, Angliam & Alemaniam . . . . Hic habuit Geritham (> That refers to