CP Confirmation: NN de Langley, wife of Nicholas de Stafford

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The...@aol.com

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Oct 12, 2004, 12:10:30 AM10/12/04
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Monday, 11 October, 2004


Dear Cris, Hap, et al.,

Among the better known unknowns (or uncertainties) to be found in CP,
there is the identification of the wife of Nicholas de Stafford (d. ca.
1 Aug 1287) as being (probably) the daughter of Geoffrey de Langley of
Pinley and Bisseley, co. Warwicks. (d. 1274) [1]. A recent review of
the SGM archives, incl. references to the work of Dr. Peter Coss on the
Langley family, had not found any firmer footing to this date.

Two sources have now been found which will serve to put this
identification on firmer footing, and provide possible avenues for
further documenting this relationship:

1. Sir William Dugdale's Monasticon Anglicanum includes a group
of charters for gifts to the priory of Cold Norton, co. Oxon.
Among these, Number V records grants/confirmations by Ralph de
Stafford, 1st Earl of Stafford (d. 31 Aug 1372): most important-
ly, the witnesses to this charter includes the following
relations of the Earl:

" Hugone de Stafford filio et haerede nostro;
Ricardo de Stafford fratre nostro;
Johanne de Peyto consanguineo nostro, militibus;
..... " [2]

The relationship of the first two individuals (son and
brother to the Earl) are obvious, but the identification
of John de Peyto as a kinsman of the Earl was hitherto
unnoticed or documented.

2. The Victoria History account of the city and environs of
Coventry includes accounts of the manors of Bisseley and
Pinley, both holdings of the Langley family in the
13th and 14th centuries. In the somewhat tortuous
tenure of the manor of Pinley among the descendants
of Geoffrey de Langley, reference is made to the
acquisition of the manor by Sir Baldwin de Freville (d.
1375) in two stages, in 1366 and 1372. Following the
release he obtained in 1372, the account states that

" In the following year [1373] Frevill was involved
in a suite about the manor with John de Peyto, a
great-grandson of the Walter de Langley who died
in 1280. " [3]

These two sources provide further evidence which, while lacking a
direct statement to that effect, does support the weak assertion in CP.
There is no chronological basis to dispute the indicated kinship. The
relationship alluded to in the Cold Norton charter between Ralph de
Stafford and John de Peyto evidently was that of 2nd cousins 1x removed,
as follows [those individuals noted in/witnessing the Cold Norton charter
are CAPITALIZED]:

Walter de Langley
of Pinley, co. Warwicks.
I
I
Sir Geoffrey de Langley = Matilda
of Bisseley and Pinley I
fl. 1236-7, d. 1274 I
_____________________________I____________
I I I
Nicholas = NN de Walter de Langley Geoffrey de
de Stafford I Langley of Pinley Langley
d. ca. 1287 I d. 1280 of Bisseley
I I I
I I I
Edmund de Stafford John de Langley Edmund de
1st Lord (Baron) Stafford of Pinley Langley
d. bef 12 Aug 1308 fl. 1325 d. bef 1368
I I_______________
___I_____________________ I
I I I
RALPH DE STAFFORD RICHARD DE NN de Langley
1st Earl of Stafford STAFFORD = NN de Peyto
I < witness > I
I I
HUGH DE STAFFORD JOHN DE PEYTO
2nd Earl of Stafford < witness >
< witness >

This identification impacts descents non-royal (via the issue of
Ralph de Stafford, 1st Earl of Stafford by his first wife) and royal
(via his marriage to Margaret de Audley, great-granddaughter of Edward
I of England). The descendants of the latter marriage include many
current royals, over 20 of the colonial emigrants documented in
Plantagenet Ancestry (incl. ancestors of George Washington) and at
least a small host of SGM list members.

Should anyone have any relevant documentation, comment or
criticism in re: the above, that would be most appreciated.

Cheers,

John *

NOTES

[1] CP XII/1:172.

[2] Monasticon Anglicanum VI/1:421.

[3] A History of the County of Warwick, VIII:83-90. Documentation
cited [footnote 39], "Plea Rolls (Coll. Hist. Staffs. xiii), 98".


* John P. Ravilious

Cristopher Nash

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Oct 12, 2004, 5:15:07 AM10/12/04
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John, thanks loads for the heads-up about this, & I'll certainly look
at my Coss stuff (lettuce be sensible, after all). Thed Langley
Cartulary may help, tho it tends to be unhelpful on the early period,
& there's a lot of Coventry stuff of his that may have scattered
relevant goods (tho the Langleys there, like the Clintons, do show up
only patchily). Only snag - it's all buried in the boxes of 2000 bks
I've just moved here to Stratford, so there may be a short (many
days'?!) pause, if you'll forgive...!

Yrs ever,

Cris


> ~ Cris, if you might have access to Dr. Coss' work or an extract
>thereof, I wonder if you might advise as to how this comports with
>his work - ?


--

Rosie Bevan

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Oct 12, 2004, 4:04:10 AM10/12/04
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Dear John

You might find the following information useful in constructing a Langley
pedigree. It comes from Peter Coss (ed), The Langley Cartulary.
Stratford-upon-Avon : Dugdale Society, 1980. p.x. Hope you can follow it.

1. Sir Walter de Langley
+ Emma de Lacy
2. Sir Geoffrey de Langley d.1274
+ NN
3. Sir Walter Langley d. 1280
+ Alice le Bret
4. Sir John Langley d.1326
+ Ela Lovel
5.Walter Langley
5. John Langley
5. Master Thomas
5. Geoffrey Langley d.1327
+ Mary d.1333 (married 2ndly Sir Wm Careswell, mother of
Peter de Careswell)
6.Geoffrey Langley
7. Joan Langley d. 1368
+ (1) Sir John de Charlton
+ (2) Sir John Trillowe
4. Robert d. by 1329
+ NN
5. Margery Langley
+ William de Peyto
6. Sir John de Peyto
4. Christine Langley
5. Eve
6. Beatrice
7. Sir John Worth d. by 1391
4. Agnes
3. Sir Geoffrey Langley d. 1297
+ Emma
4. Sir Edmund d. 1316
+ (1)Joan
5. Geoffrey d.s.p.
5. Joan
+ Roger de Ledecote, had issue
+ (2) Elizabeth de Bereford
5. John Langley, had issue
3. Nicholas
+(2) Maud de Brightwell
3. Henry Langley
3. Master Robert d. by 1280

Cheers

Rosie

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Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 5:10 PM
Subject: CP Confirmation: NN de Langley, wife of Nicholas de Stafford

The...@aol.com

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Oct 12, 2004, 7:36:12 AM10/12/04
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Tuesday, 12 October, 2004


Dear Rosie,

Thanks for that pedigree extract from Dr. Coss' work on the Langley
cartulary. That is a major assist (will not have an opportunity to
locate a copy for some time).

Without attempting to 'correct' the entire pedigree at this point,
the information you've provided amends the chart I posted previously
[illustrating the relationship of the grantor and witnesses to the
charter Num. V for the priory of Cold Norton] as follows:

Walter de Langley
of Pinley, co. Warwicks.
I
I

1) = Sir Geoffrey de Langley = 2) Matilda
I of Bisseley and Pinley : de Brightwell
I fl. 1236-7, d. 1274 : [see 1. below]
________I____________ :
I I :
Walter de Langley <siblings> NN de = Nicholas
d. 1280 Langley I de Stafford
= Alice le Bret I d. ca. 1287

___I_____________________ I
I I I I
<siblings> Robert de Langley Edmund de Stafford
d. bef 1329 1st Lord (Baron) Stafford
I d. bef 12 Aug 1308
_______________I I

I __________________I______

I I I
Margery de Langley RALPH DE STAFFORD RICHARD DE
= William de Peyto 1st Earl of Stafford STAFFORD
I <grantor> < witness >

I I
I I
JOHN DE PEYTO HUGH DE STAFFORD
<witness> 2nd Earl of Stafford
< witness >


A few thoughts related to the Langley-Stafford connection, and the
probable mother of Nicholas de Stafford's wife:

1. Edmund de Stafford, son of this marriage, was born 17 July 1273.
From online sources reportedly sourced from Coss' work, Sir
Geoffrey de Langley and his 2nd wife Maud/Matilda de Brightwell
were married before 25 Sept 1236. While unproven as yet, it
would appear most likely that the wife of Nicholas de Stafford
was a daughter of Sir Geoffrey by this marriage:
otherwise, Edmund de Stafford (only identified issue of the
Stafford-Langley marriage) would have been born to a mother
aged 36 (and likely over). Not impossible, but highly unlikely.

~ I have therefore shown the wife of Nicholas de Stafford as
a daughter of Maud/Matilda de Brightwell, above.

2. The acquisition of lands around Coventry (incl. Bisseley)
by Sir Geoffrey de Langley and his wife Maud/Matilda from
Henry de Aubeney ca. 1245 was evidently quite one-sided (a
typical Langley 'gift'), but did involve the exchange of
some of Maud's lands and prospective inheritance:

" in exchange for this gift, the said Geoffrey gives to the said
Henry and Christine 40 shillings of land in Wdeberghe co. Wilts.
together with the land and tenement which Cecilia de la Rivere
holds in dower in the vill of Wdeberghe [Woodborough, co. Wilts.]
due to the said Geoffrey and Matilda on her death, together with
30 shillings rent in the vill of Orchestone [Orcheston, co.
Wilts.] and 15 shillings rent in the vill of Bristoll'; to hold
of the said Geoffrey rendering annually a pair of gloves or one
penny at Easter;.... " [1]

Maud is stated (possibly in Coss ?) to have brought to her
marriage, as maritagium and/or inheritance, the manor of Turkdean
in Gloucestershire, with land and rents at Brightwell, Ewelme,
Haseley and Standhill in Oxfordshire, Hawridge in Buckinghamshire,
and Woodborough in Wiltshire - documentary evidence of her
rights in Woodborough is noted above. Perhaps these holdings
will further the research into her family origins, and possibly
provide additional evidence of the Stafford connection shown
above.

Thanks to you, Cris, Gordon and others who have already provided
additional documentation and encouragement.

Cheers,

John


NOTES

[1] A2A, Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office: Gregory of
Stivichall [DR10/1 - DR10/467], DR10/273.

_____________________________________________

Subj: Re: CP Confirmation: NN de Langley, wife of Nicholas de Stafford
Date: 10/12/2004 4:04:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time
From: rbe...@paradise.net.nz (Rosie Bevan)
To: The...@aol.com, GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com

The...@aol.com

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Oct 12, 2004, 7:43:17 AM10/12/04
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Tuesday, 11 October, 2004


Dear Cris,

The best-laid plans (and boxes) gang aft Langley,
so we'll await those finds another Brightwell day.

Cheers,

John

The...@aol.com

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Oct 12, 2004, 10:34:39 AM10/12/04
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Tuesday, 11 October, 2004


Hello All,

In the first post in this thread, I made the statement that there
are 'non-royal' descents from Ralph de Stafford, 1st Earl of Stafford
by his first wife (Katherine de Hastang). There is no descent from
Edward I of England by this marriage, but there are numerous royal (if
illegitimate) descents in fact.


1. Henry I, King of England = a mistress
2. Reginald, Earl of Cornwall d. 1175 (illeg.) = Mabel
3. Joan of Cornwall = Ralph de Vautort, of Trematon, Cornwall
4. Roger de Vautort, d. 1207 = Alesia
5. Isabel de Vautort = Thomas Corbet of Caus, co. Salop.
6. Alice Corbet = (1st wife) Robert de Stafford (d. bef 1261)
7. Nicholas de Stafford, d. ca 1 Aug 1287 = NN de Langley
8. Edmund de Stafford, d. bef 12 Aug 1308 = Margaret Basset
9. RALPH de Stafford, 1st Earl of Stafford, d. 31 Aug 1372
= 1) Katherine de Hastang
= 2) Margaret de Audley, Lady Audley


1. Henry I, King of England = a mistress
2. Robert 'de Caen', Earl of Gloucester, d. 1147 = Mabel 'filia Hamon'
3. Maud 'of Gloucester = Ranulf, Earl of Chester, d. 16 Dec 1153
4. Hugh 'Kevelioc', Earl of Chester, d. 1181 = Bertrade de Monfort
5. Mabel of Chester, coheiress = William d'Aubigny, Earl of Arundel
6. Nicole d'Aubigny, coheiress = Roger de Somery, d. 26 Aug 1273
7. Margaret de Somery = Ralph Basset (k. at Evesham 1265)
8. Ralph Basset, 1st Lord Basset of Drayton, d. 1299 = Hawise
9. Margaret Basset = Edmund de Stafford, d. bef 12 Aug 1308
10. RALPH de Stafford, 1st Earl of Stafford, d. 31 Aug 1372
[see #9 in first pedigree]


Several other royal lines (Welsh, French) also exist. Mea culpa.

Cheers,

John

Douglas Richardson

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Oct 12, 2004, 2:58:20 PM10/12/04
to
The...@aol.com wrote in message news:<1f5.b4640...@aol.com>...

> Tuesday, 11 October, 2004
>
>
> Hello All,
>
> In the first post in this thread, I made the statement that there
> are 'non-royal' descents from Ralph de Stafford, 1st Earl of Stafford
> by his first wife (Katherine de Hastang). There is no descent from
> Edward I of England by this marriage, but there are numerous royal (if
> illegitimate) descents in fact.
>
>
> 1. Henry I, King of England = a mistress
> 2. Reginald, Earl of Cornwall d. 1175 (illeg.) = Mabel
> 3. Joan of Cornwall = Ralph de Vautort, of Trematon, Cornwall
> 4. Roger de Vautort, d. 1207 = Alesia
> 5. Isabel de Vautort = Thomas Corbet of Caus, co. Salop.
> 6. Alice Corbet = (1st wife) Robert de Stafford (d. bef 1261)
> 7. Nicholas de Stafford, d. ca 1 Aug 1287 = NN de Langley
> 8. Edmund de Stafford, d. bef 12 Aug 1308 = Margaret Basset
> 9. RALPH de Stafford, 1st Earl of Stafford, d. 31 Aug 1372
> = 1) Katherine de Hastang
> = 2) Margaret de Audley, Lady Audley

> Cheers,
>
> John

Dear John - When you have a moment, perhaps you can post your
documentation which proves that Joan, wife of Ralph de Vautort
[Generation 3 above] was a legitimate daughter of Reynold, Earl of
Cornwall? Thanks!

DR

Gordon Kirkemo

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Oct 12, 2004, 4:50:05 PM10/12/04
to
John, Rosie, Cris, et al,

I'm wondering if it's possible that one of the wives of Geoffrey de Langley
was a d"Aubigny, perhaps a daughter of Henry? I did a Google search and
found the following sites (search on Langley):


http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=16015
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=16027
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=16020
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=16014

I can't help but see a suggested ancestor line for Geoffrey de Langley based
on the ownership of some of these manors that might look something like
this:

Liulph
Nicholas son of Liulph
Nicholas son of Nicholas
Christina daughter of Nicholas=Henry d'Aubigny
Daughter d'Aubigny=Geoffrey de Langley
|
|

I'm curious to know how you might interpret this information. John
mentioned a one-sided transaction, and the sites above call some of the
transfers grants. Is it possible the arrangements occurred because Geoffrey
was married to a daughter of Henry d'Aubigny?

Gordon

Rosie Bevan

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Oct 12, 2004, 5:31:37 PM10/12/04
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This is an interesting point, Gordon. The following record from A2A would tend to confirm this:

Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office: Gregory of Stivichall [DR10/1 - DR10/467]

Reference: DR10/267
DEEDS AND PAPERS

Creation dates: c. 1220

Physical characteristics: Parchment, 6˝ x 4ž ins.
Language: Latin


Scope and Content
Gift with warranty from Nicholas son of Nicholas son of Liulf to William Crude of his land in 'vico Comitis' [Earl Street] which he held of Nicholas his father lying between the land which Nicholas Carter (Carectarius) held and 'viam Balii' [Bailey Lane] in length; to hold the same of the said Nicholas free from toll of horses and rendering annually 12 pence of silver (4 terms); and the said Nicholas also grants to the said William the right of pasturage for two cows in his pasture with his own cows; and for this the said William gives one mark of silver.

Witnesses: Richard de Aula, Richard de Wigorn', Viellus de Folkeshull', Richard de Hundelan' Swan Parcar', Hugh son of Martin, William Fordwin', Roger 'Gardinario', Adam Herre, Nicholas Carter (Carectario), William son of Helewis, Richard son of Richard son of Siward, Adam Clerk and many others.

Seal on tag: circular, green, broken. A spread eagle. Legend: SIGILL' NICOLAI --- LVI.

Endorsed: i) Carta domini Nicholai filii Nicholai de Covintr' de terra Willelmi Crude [contemp]

ii) xiid. redditus Langeley [AG]

iii) Toll free [AG]

iv) Matilda heres Liulphi habuit exitum et fuit uxor Galfridi Langely [AG]

v) Family tree

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm assuming 'Matilda heres Liulphi' refers to Matilda de Brightwell. If you look at the pedigree I posted yesterday you will see that her eldest son is called Henry. However the fact that Bisseley descended with Walter is somewhat puzzling regarding the Langley pedigree.

Gordon Kirkemo

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Oct 12, 2004, 7:11:19 PM10/12/04
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Rosie,

Thanks for sharing this. It raises two questions.

1. Does the reference below to “Nicholai filii Nicholai Covintr’” suggest
that the senior Nicholas was styled Nicholas de Coventre/Coventry? One
reason for the question is trying to find the family line for Emma de
Coventre (wife of Philip de Orreby), daughter of Walter. I’m having trouble
finding any de Coventre’s, so I wonder if there is a connection?
2. Is it possible that Matilda Brightwell might be a daughter of Henry d’
Aubigny despite the apparent name conflict? I think there are precedents
where children took other names for various reasons. I suggest this given I
can’t find any early de Brightwells. If there is a de Brightwell family,
then my question may not be relevant.

Any thoughts?

Gordon

-----Original Message-----
From: Rosie Bevan [mailto:rbe...@paradise.net.nz]
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 2:32 PM
To: Gordon Kirkemo; GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: CP Confirmation: NN de Langley, wife of Nicholas de Stafford

This is an interesting point, Gordon. The following record from A2A would
tend to confirm this:

Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office: Gregory of Stivichall [DR10/1 -
DR10/467]
Reference: DR10/267
DEEDS AND PAPERS

Creation dates: c. 1220

Physical characteristics: Parchment, 6½ x 4¾ ins.
Language: Latin

Cheers

Rosie

<http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=16015>
> http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=16027
<http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=16027>
> http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=16020
<http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=16020>
> http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=16014

> From: rbe...@paradise.net.nz <mailto:rbe...@paradise.net.nz> (Rosie
Bevan)
> To: The...@aol.com <mailto:The...@aol.com> , GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
<mailto:GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>

> From: < The...@aol.com <mailto:The...@aol.com> >
> To: < GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com <mailto:GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com> >
> Cc: "Rob Lynley" < robl...@hotmail.com <mailto:robl...@hotmail.com> >;
< da...@hepworth1955.fsnet.co.uk <mailto:da...@hepworth1955.fsnet.co.uk> >;
> < royala...@royalancestry.net <mailto:royala...@royalancestry.net>
>; < c...@medievalgenealogy.org.uk <mailto:c...@medievalgenealogy.org.uk> >;
> < rbe...@paradise.net.nz <mailto:rbe...@paradise.net.nz> >; <
BromN...@aol.com <mailto:BromN...@aol.com> >; < ADRIANC...@aol.com
<mailto:ADRIANC...@aol.com> >;
> < louise...@staleyandco.com <mailto:louise...@staleyandco.com> >;
< c...@windsong.u-net.com <mailto:c...@windsong.u-net.com> >;
> < Claud...@aol.com <mailto:Claud...@aol.com> >; "Ian Fettes" <
fet...@st.net.au <mailto:fet...@st.net.au> >;
> < leov...@netspeed.com.au <mailto:leov...@netspeed.com.au> >; <
g.vi...@bom.gov.au <mailto:g.vi...@bom.gov.au> >; < roco...@es.co.nz
<mailto:roco...@es.co.nz> >;
> < jhigg...@earthlink.net <mailto:jhigg...@earthlink.net> >;
"Clagett,Brice" < bcla...@cov.com <mailto:bcla...@cov.com> >;
> < ss...@earthlink.net <mailto:ss...@earthlink.net> >

Rosie Bevan

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Oct 12, 2004, 7:39:21 PM10/12/04
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Dear Gordon

I think name Brightwell just refers to the land she brought to the marriage.
Coss, 'Langley Cartulary', p. xii says, " A second marriage, before 25
September 1236, brought him the manor of Turkdean, Glos., with land and
rents at Brightwell, Ewelme, Haseley, and Standhill, Oxon., Hawridge, Bucks,
and Woodborough, Wilts." This reference to Woodborough, in connection to the
other Gregory of Stivichall record John gave us, supports the notion that
Maud is the descendant of Liulph.

I'm not aware of a good source for a de Coventry family per se but perhaps a
search of the Monasticon Anglicanum charters for the religious houses in the
Coventry area might be worthwhile.

Cheers

Rosie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gordon Kirkemo" <kir...@comcast.net>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 12:17 PM
Subject: RE: CP Confirmation: NN de Langley, wife of Nicholas de Stafford

> Physical characteristics: Parchment, 6˝ x 4ž ins.

The...@aol.com

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Oct 13, 2004, 9:19:38 AM10/13/04
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Wednesday, 13 October, 2004


Dear Rosie, Gordon, et al.,

If Matilda 'de Brightwell' (wife of Sir Geoffrey de Langley) was in
fact of the family of Nicholas fitz Nicholas/de Coventry, it seems most
unlikely that she was the daughter of Henry de Aubeny and Christine
(daughter of Nicholas). The gift of Bisseley & c. by Henry de Aubeny
and his wife Christine includes a provision for

" the said Geoffrey to release Sir Henry de Albiniaco, father
of the said Henry, from prison at Sar' and to acquit him against
Robert de Totehal' for seven score marks by which
he was bound to him by an agreement relating to the marriage
settlement of the said Henry the son to the said Christine. " [1]

Besides the rather revolting picture this would otherwise paint of Sir
Geoffrey and his wife being convinced to set her own grandfather free from
prison, the chronological indication (this being dated ca. 1245; and Sir
Geoffrey having married his wife Maud before 25 Sept 1236) makes it far
more likely that Maud was a sister (or maybe aunt?) of Christine.

The account in VCH Warwicks. for Keresley (relevant portion only) is
given below [2]. Interestingly, this evidently references the same
document given in note [1], " B.M. Harl. MS. 7, ff. 95–96 " as the grant
of Keresley by Henry de Aubeney to Geoffrey de Langley. I will forward
the Bisseley/Pinley extract from VCH later.

An interesting point as to Woodborough. This is apparently in Vol.
10 of VCH Wiltshire, so access to that information will hopefully be
forthcoming. Matilda/Maud 'de Brightwell' was already in possession
of part of Woodborough ca. 1244/45, and was awaiting the reversion of the
remaining 1/3 (Cecilia de la Rivere then holding same in dower), but how/
why Christine (wife of Henry de Aubeny) was excluded from holdings in
Woodborough previously is unclear. Maud's maritagium may explain it.
We know that Joan, 'mother of Christine' was still alive at the time, as
was Nicholas son of Nicholas (evidently Christine's brother, despite some
uncertain shown in VCH and elsewhere - see chart below). Perhaps Cecilia
de la Rivere was the widow of Simon, brother (possibly elder) of the
first Nicholas:

[CONJECTURAL CHART]

Liulf de Brinklow
(aka Liulf de Coventry)
_____________I____________
I I
Simon Nicholas = Joan
= ? Christine de la (d. bef 1244) I (widow ca. 1245)
Rivere I
fl. ca. 1244/5 _____________________I_ _ _ _ _ _ _
I I I
Nicholas 'II' Christine Matilda
of Withybrook & = Henry de = Geoffrey
Stretton upon Dunsmore Aubeny de Langley
fl. ca. 1245 d. 1274



Hopefully a bit more documentation will lead to positive placement of
all the individuals involved among the descendants (by blood or marriage)
of Liulf.

Cheers,

John


NOTES

[1] Full text of this 'gift with warranty' follows:

A2A, Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office: Gregory of

Stivichall [DR10/1 - DR10/467]:

Reference: DR10/273
DEEDS AND PAPERS

Creation dates: c. 1245

Physical characteristics: Parchment, 10¼ x 12¼ ins.
Language: Latin

Scope and Content

" Gift with warranty from Henry de Albiniaco son of Henry de Albiniaco of
Wycheford and Christine his wife to Geoffrey de Langele and Matilda his
wife and their heirs or their nearest heirs for their homage and service,
of their capital messuage of Coventre with husbote and heybote relating to
the said messuage to be taken in the woods of Coventre, together with 200
pigs free from pannage and with rights of common for their other animals
in the woods of Coventre, together with all the land, rents and a tenement
belonging to the said messuage together with the mills of Bissele,
[Bisseley], the park and the new mill and all the arable land of the said
Henry and Christine in Coventre and Bissele, and their meadows, groves,
moors etc. in the vills of Coventre, Stoke, Keresle [Keresley], Alspathe
and Stivechale with homages and services and the rents of free men,
burgesses and villeins, together with all the appurtenances which Joan
mother of the said Christine holds in dower in the said vills, and which
are due to the said Henry and Christine on the death of the said Joan;
which lands are to pass to the said Geoffrey and Matilda and their heirs,
or in default to the nearest heirs of the said Geoffrey, with no
reservation by the grantors or their heirs or the heirs of Christine;
together with all the lands, rents and tenements in Wydibrok'
[Withybrook], Ruiton', Stratton', [Ryton and Stretton-on-Dunsmore] and
Kyrkeby [Monks Kirby] which the grantors might inherit from Nicholas son
of Nicholas of Coventre, father of the said Christine, and which are to
pass to the said Geoffrey and Matilda without reservation; to hold of the
said Henry and Christine rendering annually one pair of gloves or ½d. at
Christmas in lieu of all customs suit of court and secular exactions and
paying all the rents and services relating to the said property due to the
chief lord; in exchange for this gift, the said Geoffrey gives to the said


Henry and Christine 40 shillings of land in Wdeberghe co. Wilts. together
with the land and tenement which Cecilia de la Rivere holds in dower in
the vill of Wdeberghe [Woodborough, co. Wilts.] due to the said Geoffrey
and Matilda on her death, together with 30 shillings rent in the vill of
Orchestone [Orcheston, co. Wilts.] and 15 shillings rent in the vill of
Bristoll'; to hold of the said Geoffrey rendering annually a pair of

gloves or one penny at Easter; and the said Geoffrey to release Sir
Henry de Albiniaco, father of the said Henry, from prison at Sar' and
to acquit him against Robert de Totehal' for seven score marks by which
he was bound to him by an agreement relating to the marriage settlement
of the said Henry the son to the said Christine.

Witnesses: Sir Paul Peyure, Sir Robert de Mucegros, Sir Henry de Bathon',
Sir Gilbert de Preston', Sir Nicholas Peyure, Sir William Trussel, Walter
de Coventr', William de Lit', Robert de Stokes, John de Langel', Geoffrey
de Wyllenhal', Richard de Pynele, William de Pynele and others.

Seals: i) on tag: circular, green. An eagle rising. Legend: S' HENRICI
DAUBEONI

ii) On tag: fragment of circular green seal. Fleur de lis. Legend:
---E FIL' NICH---

Endorsed: i) Carta Henrici de Albiniaco; Coventre [contemp]

ii) Carta Galfridi Langley de diversis terris et tenementis in Schorteley,
Coventr' et alibi [AG has added: Stivichal', Keresley, Alspathe, Stoke]
Whytemore Thes'; Johannes Leedecote quondam tenuit [14th c.]

iii) Nicolaus Peysre de Coventry demise lo Heathe mylne 25 H 3. Nicholaus
filius Nicolait de Coventry, Johanna uxor que tenuit Stivechale in dotem
habuerunt exitum; Christianam uxorem Henrici Dawbenii qui habuerunt
exitum, Maltildam uxorem Galfridi Langley [AG]

iv) Godyva comitissa tenet Aelespede et Coventry in libro Domus Dei. Post
conquestum Hugo comes Cestriae cuius una heres Mabilia filia Ranulphi uxor
Hugonis Dalbaniaco comitis Arundel de quibus Cecilia uxor Rogeri de Monte
Alto, Isabella uxor Johannis filii Alani, Mabilia uxor Rogeri Somery.
Feodum dominorum de Styvechale: Allispath tenetur de manerio de Stivechale
per servitium militis per finem levatam apud Wilton, pasche xxxiii regni
regis Henrici iii et per incuisiciones de anno xix Edwardi secundi et
xxxix Henrici tercii per Kington, Segrave et omnes alios. Redditus
burgensium omnium et villanorum de Coventr' regargan' capitali manso de
Stivechale, howsbot et heybot in vastis de Coventr', pannagium quietum
pro CC porcis, communiam omnium animalium de Stivechal, videlicet pro
xxiiii virgatis terre. Liberi tenentes de Stretton, Boughton et alii.
Essex sectatur pro Ruiton' et Stivechal'. Fenton' Dudly Murdack sectatores
pro tenementis in Coventry et Simon Arden' cum multis aliis pro terris
ibidem. [AG]


Related Material

See F.F. i, 616.


[2] A History of the County of Warwick VIII:77-83 (The City of Coventry:
Keresley):

Keresley was first mentioned in the early 12th century, when it was among
the chapelries granted by Earl Ranulf de Gernon to Coventry Priory,
(Footnote 26) and the same earl included land in Keresley in a grant to
Liulph of Brinklow. (Footnote 27) Later in the century Earl Ranulf de
Blundeville gave 280 acres of wood and waste in Exhall and Keresley to
Coventry Priory. (Footnote 28) In 1250 Roger and Cecily de Montalt
retained the service of the heirs of Robert Tuschet in Keresley when they
granted the remainder of the district to Coventry Priory. (Footnote 29)

Liulph's holding does not seem to have remained subject to the manor of
Cheylesmore. It descended to his son and grandson, both named Nicholas,
in the late 12th century, (Footnote 30) and to Christina daughter of
Nicholas (probably Nicholas (II)) and her husband Henry d'Aubigny
(Footnote 31) the younger. It was granted by Henry to Geoffrey de Langley
of Shortley in 1244, (Footnote 32) and descended to Walter de Langley in
1274. (Footnote 33) Walter's estates seem to have been broken up about
1280, (Footnote 34) and thereafter there is no direct descent for this
Keresley holding.

NOTES: 26 Cal. Chart. R. 1341–1417, 102, 103.
27 S.B.L., Cal. Gregory-Hood Docs., no. 1.
28 Cal. Chart. R. 1341–1417, 104.
29 Ibid. 105.
30 B.M. Harl. MS. 7, ff. 121v, 122–122v; see p. 84.
31 B.M. Harl. MS. 7, ff. 95–96.
32 Ibid.
33 Ibid. ff. 194v–195; see p. 84.
34 See pp. 84, 85.

The...@aol.com

unread,
Oct 12, 2004, 4:39:34 PM10/12/04
to
Tuesday, 12 October, 2004


Dear Doug,

The 'primary' sources I've used re: the Valletort/Vautort family of
Trematon, Cornwall are:

1. Todd A. Farmerie, <Re: VALLETORT c.1536>, SGM, 19 Aug 1996
[based largely on Devon and Cornwall Notes and Queries].
The essence of that post re: this Valletort family
(primarily the second section given below) follows:

===============================

Root of family (highly speculative)

1.Godfrey, fl.1084, dead 1086
?A.Hugh, founder of Somerset Branch (see below)
?B.Reginald (I)

2.Reginald (I), of Somerset and Devon, fl.1086
A.Reginald (II)
B.William

3.Reginald (II) fl. 1121
?A.Robert

4.Robert m. Alice
A.Robert, founder of the Clyst Branch (see next)
?B.Joel, fl.1172
?C.Ralph, founder of the Trematon Branch (see below)
?D.John

....................

Tremeton Branch

5.Ralph (see Root) married Joan, dau. Reginald Earl of Cornwall
A.Roger
?B.Ralph, nephew of Joel (I) 1172
?C.Joel (II), fl.1188, founder of North Tawton Branch (see below)

6.Roger m. Alesia
A.Reginald fl. 1233/8 dsp
B.Ralph m. Joan, she m2. Alexander de Oxton, and was mistress of
Richard, Earl of Cornwall and King of Germany
i.Reginald
C.Roger
D.Joan m. Henry de Pomeroy
E.Beatrice m. Thomas Corbet of Caus

=====================================

Some of the above has been corrected since (e.g., Beatrice
shown as wife of Thomas Corbet, was actually Isabel).


2. Todd A. Farmerie, <Re: Valletort>, SGM, 29 Sept 1999
The salient portion of this post (re: Isabel vs. Beatrice
de Valletort, and the Joan of Cornwall connection) follows:

" First, Beatrice vs. Isabel. Go with CP here. It is possible that
either my source (Benson in D&CN&Q) made an error, or that I made an
error in entering the material. I have much more faith in CP.

Second, the earlier Valletort/Earl of Corwall marriage. This was
specifically addressed in the running debate over the later
Valletort/Earl of Cornwall relationship. Specifically, a claim to the
Cornwall arms (three red circles on gold, with a spotted border) came
down to the Champernowne family. Their use of these arms was cited to
support the Cornish paternity of Joan (Okeston?), wife of Richard
Champernowne. Benson argued that the source of this heraldic connection
was not through this descent (Joan being illegitimate would have removed
any claim to the arms anyhow), but through the marriage of their son,
also Richard Champernowne, to the heiress of Hugh de Valletort, who
descended from the marriage of a Valletort to the daughter of Earl
Reginald. Benson was able to prove this derivation of the Champernowne
claim to Cornwall arms by his discovery of the seal of Beatrice de
Valletort, sister-in-law of the second Richard de Champernowne. This
seal not only showed the Valletort arms differenced by the Cornwall
border, but included on the reverse the arms of Valletort and that of
Cornwall undifferenced.

What we know from this is that the Valletorts claimed (through heraldry)
a descent from the Earls of Cornwall that predated Earl Richard (who
used a lion with the spotted border of Cornwall). This points to
Reginald. (I do not recall if any further support was offered.)
Discussions that I have seen regarding the children of Reginald, Earl of
Cornwall, have been uniformly mute on this issue.

taf "


I recall that Richard Borthwick had noted elsewhere that Joan
of Cornwall, wife of Ralph de Valletort, does not appear in the ES
tafel for that family: at the same time, I also understand that ES is
somewhat weak when it comes to French/English families....

* By the way, will be reading your posts on the family of Geoffrey fitz
Piers in detail later, with interest. Great sleuthing!

Cheers,

John

Douglas Richardson

unread,
Oct 13, 2004, 1:51:42 PM10/13/04
to
Dear John ~

Thank you for sharing your source for the alleged Vautort-Cornwall
connection. I've encountered Mr. Benson's work in the past and find
it good in many respects but lacking in others. Does Mr. Benson give
the source for the seal he claims he discovered for Beatrice de
Vautort? Also, were the Vautort arms quartered or impaled with those
of Cornwall? Your post didn't say.

Inasmuch as the evidence at present is sketchy, I recommend that this
line be put on hold until further particulars can be gathered which
might support it or disprove it. If the line is sound, I have no
doubt that additional evidence can be found to prove it.

Thanks again, John, for sharing your information with the newsgroup.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

The...@aol.com wrote in message news:<c4.174afde...@aol.com>...

Todd A. Farmerie

unread,
Oct 13, 2004, 2:57:50 PM10/13/04
to
Douglas Richardson wrote:
> Dear John ~
>
> Thank you for sharing your source for the alleged Vautort-Cornwall
> connection. I've encountered Mr. Benson's work in the past and find
> it good in many respects but lacking in others. Does Mr. Benson give
> the source for the seal he claims he discovered for Beatrice de
> Vautort? Also, were the Vautort arms quartered or impaled with those
> of Cornwall? Your post didn't say.

If you read his post closer, you will find that for this descent he
refers entirely to a post of mine, and not to Benson's original
articles. Thus he cannot answer your questions, but I can (sort of).
Does he give his source? yes, and even illustrates the seal ("claims he
discovered"? - do you think he made it up?). IIRC, the answer to the
second question is neither - both are shown individually. For more
details, I recommend you consult the Benson article directly. D&CN&Q
can be found on FHL films 0962106-10 & 0962141-7. Again, IIRC, the
discussion in question is found in DCNQ xviii:108-112, and xix:319-321
(and perhaps preceeding and succeeding volumes.

taf

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