Matilda of Mayenne
Richard Borthwick
>>Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:31:24 -0800 (PST)
>>Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 20:31:12 -0500
>>From: "ED MANN" <EDL...@MAIL2.LCIA.COM>
>>X-Accept-Language: en
>>Old-To: Jim Stevens <jste...@iquest.net>
>>Old-CC: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
>>Subject: Re: Matilda of Mayenne
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>>
>>Jim Stevens wrote:
>>>
>>> Does anyone have the ancestry of Matilda of Mayenne, possible wife of Hugh
>>> II, "the peaceful", Duke of Burgundy?
>>
>>What I've got:
>>
>>Descendants of Hugh de Cambour
>>
>> 1 Vicomte Hugh de Cambour aka: Sire de Quercy ref #: S156-34
>> 2 Vicomte Archambaud II de Cambour d: Aft. 993 ref #: S156-33
>> +Sulpice de Turenne d: Aft. 974 ref #: S308-33
>> 3 Vicomte Elbes I de Turenne d: 1030 ref #: S156-32
>> +Beatrice de Normandy d: 18 Jan 1034/35
>> 4 Vicomte William de Turenne d: Aft. 1029 ref #: S156-31
>> +Matilda
>> 5 Vicomte Boson I de Turenne b: Abt. 1050 d: 1092 ref #: (Ä105A-27)
>> +Gerberge de Terrasson b: Abt. 1055 d: 1103
>> 6 Vicomte Raymond I de Turenne b: Abt. 1080 d: Abt. 1122 ref #:
>>(Ä153-25)
>> +Matilda de Perche aka: Maud de Perche b: 1105 d: 28 May 1143 ref #:
>>Ä153-25
>> 6 Mathilda de Turenne ref #: (Ä105A-27)
>> +Duke Hugues II de Bourgogne b: Abt. 1085 d: 1143 ref #: (Ä105A-27)
>>
>>--
>>FWIW; AFAIK; IMHO; YMMV; yadda, yadda, yadda.
>>
>>Regards, Ed Mann mailto:edl...@mail2.lcia.com
>>
>>References:
>> Ä = Weis, _Ancestral_Roots_, 7th ed.
>> AACPW = Roberts & Reitwiesner, _American Ancestors and Cousins of
>> the Princess of Wales_, [page].
>> AAP = Roberts, _Ancestors_of_American_Presidents_, [page] or
>> [Pres. # : page].
>> BP1 = _Burke's_Presidential_Families_, 1st ed. [page].
>> BPci = _Burke's_Peerage_, 101st ed., [page].
>> BRF = Weir, _Britain's_Royal_Families_, [page].
>> BxP = _Burke's_Dormant_&_Extinct_Peerages_, [page].
>> EC1 = Redlich, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol I, [page].
>> EC2 = Langston & Buck, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol II,
>> [page].
>> EC3 = Buck & Beard, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol II,
>> [page].
>> F = Faris, _Plantagenet_Ancestry_, [page:para].
>> NK1 = Roberts, _Notable_Kin_Volume_One_, [page].
>> Π= Hardy, _Colonial_Families_of_the_Southern_States_of_America_,
>>[page].
>> S = Stuart, _Royalty_for_Commoners_, 2d ed. Caveat emptor.
>> W = Weis, _Magna_Charta_Sureties,_1215_, 4th ed.
>> WFT = Broderbund's World Family Tree CD, [vol]:[num] Caveat emptor.
>> WMC = Wurt's Magna Charta, [vol]:[page]
>>
>>
>
ES III/4:765-766 which sets out the relevant generations of the family of
Turenne does not give Mathilde, wife of duke Hughes II, as a dau. of Boso I
(d.1092). ES II identifies her as Mathilde de Mayenne but does not give an
affiliation. Bouchard *Sword, Miter, and Cloister*, p.259, identifies her
as the dau. of Walter of Mayenne (but see also ibid. note 12). As far as I
can see Bouchard gives no explicit evidence to support this affiliation. ES
XIII:133 which sets out the Mayenne genealogy does not give Mathilde a
guernsey either as a dau. of Gautier (Walter) who d.>18 Dec 1116 or of
anyone else in this family. Walter is the most obvious candidate for
Mathilde's father on chronological grounds. It would be interesting to know
if there are any documentary or other grounds for Bouchard's claim.
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> >>Jim Stevens wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Does anyone have the ancestry of Matilda of Mayenne, possible wife of Hugh
> >>> II, "the peaceful", Duke of Burgundy?
> >>
> >>What I've got:
> >>
> >>Descendants of Hugh de Cambour
> >> 6 Vicomte Raymond I de Turenne b: Abt. 1080
> >> +Matilda de Perche b: 1105
> >> 6 Mathilda de Turenne
> >> +Duke Hugues II de Bourgogne
Except that Matilda, wife of Hugh II was daughter of Walter of Mayenne,
so the whole line gets tossed.
> ES III/4:765-766 which sets out the relevant generations of the family of
> Turenne does not give Mathilde, wife of duke Hughes II, as a dau. of Boso I
> (d.1092). ES II identifies her as Mathilde de Mayenne but does not give an
> affiliation. Bouchard *Sword, Miter, and Cloister*, p.259, identifies her
> as the dau. of Walter of Mayenne (but see also ibid. note 12). As far as I
> can see Bouchard gives no explicit evidence to support this affiliation. ES
> XIII:133 which sets out the Mayenne genealogy does not give Mathilde a
> guernsey either as a dau. of Gautier (Walter) who d.>18 Dec 1116 or of
> anyone else in this family. Walter is the most obvious candidate for
> Mathilde's father on chronological grounds. It would be interesting to know
> if there are any documentary or other grounds for Bouchard's claim.
This has been discussed here before, but a preliminary search of the
archives failed to turn up the exact citation. There was an article by
J. Richard in Annales de Bourgogne (I think) in which he discusses the
wives typically assigned to the various Dukes of Burgundy, and
replaces/revises several of them. In the case of Mayenne, if I recall
correctly, he cites a donation to a church in Mayenne made by the
Duchess of Burgundy, and naming her mother, Countess (whatever), which
matches the name of Walter's wife. This is solid work, and I suspect is
the source for Bouchard. I will see if I can find it again.
taf
ED MANN
>
> Does anyone have the ancestry of Matilda of Mayenne, possible wife of Hugh
> II, "the peaceful", Duke of Burgundy?
What I've got:
Descendants of Hugh de Cambour
MTaHT
You seem to favor Mathilde de Turenne over Mathilde de Mayenne as the wife of
Hugues 2 duc de Bougogne.
There's been a lot written on this conflict, but I'm still undecided
(confused?). What are the reasons for your choice?
Best wishes and thanks,
Mike Talbot
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> Dear Ed:
>
> You seem to favor Mathilde de Turenne over Mathilde de Mayenne as the wife of
> Hugues 2 duc de Bougogne.
>
> There's been a lot written on this conflict, but I'm still undecided
> (confused?). What are the reasons for your choice?
After two years of promising to to it, I finally looked up the critical
article. Having refressed my memory, I must revise what I posted
yesterday. It is:
J. Richard. Sur les alliances familiales des ducs de Bourgogne aux XIIe
et XIIIe siecles. Annales de Bourgogne 30:37-46 (1958).
In this article he addresses several Burgundy wives, but relevant to
this quesion, he documents that Matilda was called in three contemporary
charters called Mathildis de Meduana or Mathildis de Magne. There are a
couple of chateau with this name, but the obvious conclusion is that the
bride was from the County of Mayenne. The necrology of Beaune names the
mother of Duchess Matilda as Aelina. As this matches the name of Aline,
wife of Walter, Count of Mayenne in the immediately prior generation, it
is then reasonable to conclude that Matilda was de Mayenne, daughte rof
Walter and Aline.
Apparently the Turenne identification was a hypothesis of Chaume based
on the passage of the name Raymond into the Burgundian house, but such
suppositions cannot stand in the face of the documentation that we have
consistant with the Mayenne connection.
taf
Cristopher Nash
>Finally we have Hugh II. In two contemporary documents, his wife
Matilda, traditionally a member of the Turenne family, is described as
being of Mayenne. In addition, one document names her mother. These
allow her exact parentage to be established.<
The full text of this message should be available in archive under this
date, or I can re-post it if desired.
Cris
-----------------
"Todd A. Farmerie" <ta...@po.cwru.edu> wrote on 6/3/99:
>Richard Borthwick wrote:
>>
>> >>Jim Stevens wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Does anyone have the ancestry of Matilda of Mayenne, possible wife
>>of Hugh
>> >>> II, "the peaceful", Duke of Burgundy?
>> >>
>> >>What I've got:
>> >>
>> >>Descendants of Hugh de Cambour
>
>> >> 6 Vicomte Raymond I de Turenne b: Abt. 1080
>> >> +Matilda de Perche b: 1105
>> >> 6 Mathilda de Turenne
>> >> +Duke Hugues II de Bourgogne
>
MTaHT
>Apparently the Turenne identification was a hypothesis of Chaume based
>on the passage of the name Raymond into the Burgundian house, but such
>suppositions cannot stand in the face of the documentation that we have
>consistant with the Mayenne connection.
>
>taf
>
mother, "Aline"?
Best wishes,
Mike Talbot