Courtenay & Rogers of Bryanston, Dorset

[Brad Verity]

I'm having a difficult time sorting out the pedigree of Rogers of
Bryanston, Dorset, and how it ties into the Courtenays of Powderham.

HOP, in it's bio of Sir John Rogers of Bryanston, MP
[1545,1547,1555,1559], says he was the son, born by 1507, of Sir John
Rogers of Bryanston (d. 1535/6) and Elizabeth, daughter of Sir William
Courtenay of Powderham, Devon.

According to COLLINS'S PEERAGE, there were three Sir William
Courtenays of Powderham, in succession.

The first was Sir William Courtenay of Powderham (d. 1485), who was
married to Margaret Bonville. Collins gives them a daughter
Catherine, the wife of Thomas Rogers, serjeant at law, but this is a
mistake. This Catherine Courtenay was sister, not daughter, of Sir
William, and was married first to St. Clare Pomeroy and lastly to
William Huddlesfield.

Was this Thomas Rogers, serjeant at law, a member of the Rogers family
of Bryanston, Dorset? He had only one son, George, by Catherine
Courtenay, but I believe he had two other sons by a first marriage.

Is it possible Collins confused two generations of Courtenay/Rogers
marriages? Could HOP be correct and Elizabeth, wife of Sir John
Rogers of Bryanston, was the daughter of this first Sir William
Courtenay of Powderham and Margaret Bonville? HOP's source for the
marriage was "The History of Dorset (Volume 1)" by Hutchins, pg. 250.

Or maybe Sir John Rogers' wife Elizabeth was the daughter of the
second Sir William Courtenay of Powderham (d. 1512) and his wife
Cecily Cheney? Collins gives them four daughters, but no Elizabeth.
Still, their son - the third Sir William Courtenay of Powderham (d.
1535) - was born by 1485, according to his bio in HOP, so it is
chronologically possible for Elizabeth to be his sister and have a son
(Sir John Rogers, MP) born by 1507.

HOP says Elizabeth Courtenay was the first wife of Sir John Rogers of
Bryanston (d. 1535/6). I'm guessing his second wife was Dorothy, the
widow of Sir William Fillol (d. 1527).

From the PRO database:

C 1/673/26 Edward Seymer, knight, and Dame Katherine, his wife,
daughter of Dorothy, wife of John Rogers, knight, and late the wife of
Sir William Fyloll. v. [The said Sir John Rogers, and Thomas Scherlye
and John Rowdon.]: Petition for the examination of these aged
witnesses to deeds relating to the manors of Harrynge and Sellinge by
Monks Horton, to land there and in Lympne, Estrynghanger [Ostenhanger
in Stanford], Horton, Burmarsh, West Hythe, Dymchurch and Aldington,
and to the manor of Steeple, late of the said Dorothy.

C 1/708/6 John Rogers, knight, Dorothy his wife, Edward Willoughby,
knight, and Anne his wife. v. Margaret Lewkenour.: Entries on the
manor of Southwick, held with those of Woodmancote, Thurle (Truly in
Edburton), and Goring by William Fylolle, knight, late husband of the
said Dorothy and father of the said Anne, and detention of deeds.

According to CP, Sir Edward Seymour (later 1st Duke of Somerset)
married before 1519, Katherine, daughter of Sir William Fillol, of
Woodlands, in Horton, Dorset, by Dorothy, daughter and heiress of John
Ifield, of Standon, Herts. A footnote says pedigrees of Fillol of
Woodlands are in "History of Dorset, Volume III(p. 152) and Vol. 4(p.
315)" by Hutchins.

If anyone can shed further light on the family of Rogers of Bryanston,
Dorset, I'd appreciate it. In the meantime, I'm going to try and
track down this 4-volume "History of Dorset" series by Hutchins.

Best regards, -------Brad Verity

[James R. Yeowell]

Brad,

As you may remember, some of this Courtenay information was discussed
around new year.

I have Thomas Rogers, of Bradford on Avon, Serjeant-at-Law as dieing 5
Oct. 1478.

He firstly married Cecily Bessils, of Bradford on Avon, Wiltshire,
daughter of William Bessils, of Bradford on Avon, Wiltshire.

They had two sons, William Rogers, of Bradford on Avon and John
Rogers, of Sutton Valence, Kent.

He married secondly, Katherine Courtenay, about 1470. Katherine died
about 12 January 1514/15 and was daughter of Sir Philip Courtenay,
Kt., of Powderham, Devon, and Elizabeth Hungerford, daughter of Sir
Walter Hungerford, K.G., Lord Treasurer of England and Katherine
Peverell.

Thomas Rogers and Katherine Courtenay has a son, George Rogers, of
Luppitt.

Bradford on Avon is situated in the County of Wiltshire, which shares
its county boundaries with Dorset. This could suggest Thomas Rogers is
from the Bryanston Rogers (or the Rogers of Bryanston are from
Bradford on Avon Rogers).

I have an Elizabeth Courtenay, daughter of Sir William Courtenay, of
Powderham, Devon, and Cecily Cheyney - Visitations of Devon.

But as you say, chronologically it could work.

Perhaps Elizabeth Courtenay's siblings (if she is a daughter of
William Courtenay and Cecily Cheyney) may mention the Rogers in their
wills?

Regards,

James R. Yeowell, Wiltshire, England.

Brad Verity wrote:

bat...@hotmail.com (Brad Verity) wrote in message news:<8ed1b63.02071...@posting.google.com>...

[Richard Smith]

I appreciate I'm replying to a 12-year-old post, but I note the original
poster has been active on the newsgroup this week.

On Friday, July 12, 2002 9:47:30 PM UTC+1, Brad Verity wrote:
>
> I'm having a difficult time sorting out the pedigree of Rogers of
> Bryanston, Dorset, and how it ties into the Courtenays of Powderham.
>
> HOP, in it's bio of Sir John Rogers of Bryanston, MP
> [1545,1547,1555,1559], says he was the son, born by 1507, of Sir John
> Rogers of Bryanston (d. 1535/6) and Elizabeth, daughter of Sir William
> Courtenay of Powderham, Devon.

I've found surprisingly little evidence for the marriage of Sir John
Rogers the elder to Elizabeth, allegedly the daughter of Sir William
Courtenay.

There were two coats of arms in the east window of the chancel in the
old church at Bryanston, Dorset recorded as "pretty old" in 1644 in
Richard Symonds diary [p 127 in the 1859 edition]. One was Rogers of
Bryanston impaled by Stourton, the other was Rogers impaled by Courtenay
("three roundels, in chief a file of three points"). The first
impalement is clearly Sir Henry Rogers and Anne (Amy, Avice) Stourton,
Sir John's parents, and it's logical suppose the other is the next
generation as they're not Sir Henry's parents' arms.

Again at the old church at Bryanston, Hutchins records a gravestone with
the effigies of a man and a woman. [Hist. Dorset (3rd ed), vol 1, p
263]. Below the man are the Rogers arms; below the woman, the Rogers
arms impaled by Courtenay. Above figures was the text "Of your charitie
pray for the soules of John Rogers, esquyer, and Elizabeth his wife.
Which John … decessed the … day of … in the yer Mdx… and Elizabeth
decessed the first day of October, in the yer of our Lord Mdxxviii, on
whose soules Jhu have m'cy." W H Hamilton Rogers also recorded this
inscription [/The Strife of the Roses and Days of the Tudors in the
West/ (1890), p 81], and read the 'dx' in the two years as a 'd' with a
superscript 'c', so: 15-- and 1518 (not 1528).

The 1623 visitation of Dorset, at least as printed, shows John and
Elizabeth (with no further details) as the earliest generation. "These
names have been added in pencil." Surprisingly, the 1565 visitation (as
printed) contains no Rogers pedigree.

It's not until 1853 that I can find a source giving any more detail on
Elizabeth. A pedigree drawn up by George Harrison, the Windsor Herald,
for Richard Coxwell Rogers [Misc. Gen. et Her. vol 1 (1868), p 258]
shows "Elizabeth, dau'r of Sir William Courtenay, Kn't, died 1 Oct 1518,
bur'd at Bryanston. M.I." The only source given is a rather generic
"Records of the College of Arms", and I wonder whether this is anything
more than supposition. (Hutchins misquotes the date of her death as 15
Oct, and many modern sources follow that.)

But perhaps another source exists that I've overlooked. Have you found
anything since 2002?

> According to COLLINS'S PEERAGE, there were three Sir William
> Courtenays of Powderham, in succession.
>
> The first was Sir William Courtenay of Powderham (d. 1485), who was
> married to Margaret Bonville. Collins gives them a daughter
> Catherine, the wife of Thomas Rogers, serjeant at law, but this is a
> mistake. This Catherine Courtenay was sister, not daughter, of Sir
> William, and was married first to St. Clare Pomeroy and lastly to
> William Huddlesfield.
>
> Was this Thomas Rogers, serjeant at law, a member of the Rogers family
> of Bryanston, Dorset? He had only one son, George, by Catherine
> Courtenay, but I believe he had two other sons by a first marriage.

There's no evidence that this Thomas Rogers was related to the Rogers
family of Bryanston, although many people have guessed at possible
connections, some of which have been repeated enough to be have become
established as "fact". The Bradford family had an entirely different
coat of arms to the Bryanston family, not just the minor changes you
normally expect in a cadet branch of a family. I'm not ruling out the
possibility that they're related, but absent any evidence, it seems more
likely that Thomas's family had only recently risen from relatively
obscurity.

It's worth noting that there were two roughly contemporaneous people
called Thomas Rogers: the sergeant at law from Bradford on Avon, Wilts,
and a gentleman from Benham Valence, Berks. Many recent sources
conflate the two. Thomas of Benham Valence was undoubtedly connected to
the Bryanston family: he was the grandson of one of the early John
Rogers of Bryanston. The only question is which John? Sir Henry's
grandfather or great grandfather?

> Is it possible Collins confused two generations of Courtenay/Rogers
> marriages? Could HOP be correct and Elizabeth, wife of Sir John
> Rogers of Bryanston, was the daughter of this first Sir William
> Courtenay of Powderham and Margaret Bonville? HOP's source for the
> marriage was "The History of Dorset (Volume 1)" by Hutchins, pg. 250.

As I'm sure you've now found out, Hutchins, 3rd ed, vol 1, p 250 is just
a extract from the 1853 genealogy given in Misc. Gen. et Her.

I estimate that the marriage of John Rogers to Elizabeth Courtenay
happened sometime between 1485 and 1505, which suggests Elizabeth was
born between 1460 and 1490. The uncertainty is because we have no clear
idea of when either this John or his son John (with the HOP article)
were born. The older John's father was born in the late 1440s, and the
younger John's eldest son was born in the mid 1520s. This leaves about
20 years of slack in the intervening chronology.

I'm even less sure when the marriage of Thomas Rogers to Katherine
Courtenay happened, but probably between 1450 and 1480, bearing in mind
it was Thomas's second marriage. It's possible that Katherine and
Elizabeth were sisters, but as you say, it seems more likely they were
aunt and niece.

> Or maybe Sir John Rogers' wife Elizabeth was the daughter of the
> second Sir William Courtenay of Powderham (d. 1512) and his wife
> Cecily Cheney? Collins gives them four daughters, but no Elizabeth.
> Still, their son - the third Sir William Courtenay of Powderham (d.
> 1535) - was born by 1485, according to his bio in HOP, so it is
> chronologically possible for Elizabeth to be his sister and have a son
> (Sir John Rogers, MP) born by 1507.
>
> HOP says Elizabeth Courtenay was the first wife of Sir John Rogers of
> Bryanston (d. 1535/6). I'm guessing his second wife was Dorothy, the
> widow of Sir William Fillol (d. 1527).

According to Hutchins and the 1853 genealogy, Dorothy was his third wife.

Richard

[Brad Verity]

On Saturday, February 7, 2015 at 9:09:53 AM UTC-8, Richard Smith wrote:
> I appreciate I'm replying to a 12-year-old post, but I note the original
> poster has been active on the newsgroup this week.

LOL. I can't even remember writing the post. It's kind of mind-boggling to think I've been active on SGM for over 12 years - the time has gone by so fast.

> I've found surprisingly little evidence for the marriage of Sir John
> Rogers the elder to Elizabeth, allegedly the daughter of Sir William
> Courtenay.

I think the evidence you have found, Richard, is persuasive. The Rogers impaling Courtenay arms in Bryanston Church shows there was an additional Rogers/Courtenay marriage to that of Katherine Courtenay of Powderham Castle (c.1450-1515) and Thomas Rogers of Smallbroke (c.1438-1478), as Katherine is buried elsewhere (in Shillingford, Devon).

> There were two coats of arms in the east window of the chancel in the
> old church at Bryanston, Dorset recorded as "pretty old" in 1644 in
> Richard Symonds diary [p 127 in the 1859 edition]. One was Rogers of
> Bryanston impaled by Stourton, the other was Rogers impaled by Courtenay
> ("three roundels, in chief a file of three points"). The first
> impalement is clearly Sir Henry Rogers and Anne (Amy, Avice) Stourton,
> Sir John's parents, and it's logical suppose the other is the next
> generation as they're not Sir Henry's parents' arms.

Yes, I agree.

> Again at the old church at Bryanston, Hutchins records a gravestone with
> the effigies of a man and a woman. [Hist. Dorset (3rd ed), vol 1, p
> 263]. Below the man are the Rogers arms; below the woman, the Rogers
> arms impaled by Courtenay. Above figures was the text "Of your charitie
> pray for the soules of John Rogers, esquyer, and Elizabeth his wife.

> Which John ... decessed the ... day of ... in the yer Mdx... and Elizabeth

> decessed the first day of October, in the yer of our Lord Mdxxviii, on
> whose soules Jhu have m'cy." W H Hamilton Rogers also recorded this
> inscription [/The Strife of the Roses and Days of the Tudors in the
> West/ (1890), p 81], and read the 'dx' in the two years as a 'd' with a
> superscript 'c', so: 15-- and 1518 (not 1528).

Thank you for this. It's great to know the source of Elizabeth Courtenay Rogers's date of death, and her place of burial.

It's interesting that the date of death for her husband was never filled in. That probably means he was buried elsewhere.

> The 1623 visitation of Dorset, at least as printed, shows John and
> Elizabeth (with no further details) as the earliest generation. "These
> names have been added in pencil." Surprisingly, the 1565 visitation (as
> printed) contains no Rogers pedigree.

It's so frustrating when a family skipped out on a Visitation. The Rogers of Bryanston certainly were prominent enough in 1565 to have warranted the herald's notice.

> It's not until 1853 that I can find a source giving any more detail on
> Elizabeth. A pedigree drawn up by George Harrison, the Windsor Herald,
> for Richard Coxwell Rogers [Misc. Gen. et Her. vol 1 (1868), p 258]
> shows "Elizabeth, dau'r of Sir William Courtenay, Kn't, died 1 Oct 1518,
> bur'd at Bryanston. M.I." The only source given is a rather generic
> "Records of the College of Arms", and I wonder whether this is anything
> more than supposition. (Hutchins misquotes the date of her death as 15
> Oct, and many modern sources follow that.)

No, I'm guessing that the College of Arms has a pedigree on file, that hasn't yet been published, that confirms that Elizabeth was the daughter of Sir William Courtenay. The problem is that there were three consecutive Sir William Courtenays at Powderham Castle in the 15th-early 16th century, and we need to work out the chronology to figure out which one was Elizabeth's father.

> But perhaps another source exists that I've overlooked. Have you found
> anything since 2002?

The Courtenays are a well-covered family, but what I've found is that there is much confusion in published pedigrees and peerage works as to the 14th & 15th-century generations, especially in the younger Powderham Castle branch. By the time we get Visitation pedigrees in the 16th-century, the younger sons and daughters of the 15th-century Powderham Castle Courtenays are not accounted for.

Here is what I've managed to gather on the three consecutive Sir William Courtenays and their issue.

Sir William Courtenay I of Powderham Castle, born c.1428, died 1485. Married Margaret Bonville (born 1426, died by 12 October 1487), dau of William, 1st Lord Bonville & Margaret Grey, and had at least 3 sons:
1) Sir William Courtenay II (see below)
2) Edward Courtenay of Wotton House, Cornwall, died 1 March 1509, buried St Michael & All Angels Church, Landrake, Cornwall. Married Alice Wotton (died 29 September 1533), dau of John Wotton of Wotton House. Issue: 1 son & 2 daus.
3) Piers Courtenay of Helset, died 1508.

Sir William Courtenay II of Powderham Castle, died 1512. Married Cecily Cheney, dau of John Cheney of Pinhoe & Elizabeth Hill, and had at least 2 sons and 6 daus:
1) Sir William Courtenay III (see below)
2) James Courtenay of Upcott (died 20 September 1546) married Anne Basset, dau of Sir John Basset of Umberleigh & Anne Dennys.
3) Margaret Courtenay (died after 1535) married (settlement 30 June) 1510, Thomas Danvers, Heir of Dauntsey (born by 1492, died 9 October 1532), and had issue.
4) Joan Courtenay (died 1554) married by 1505, Sir William Carew of Mohun Ottery (born by 1485, died 11 August 1537), and had issue.
5) Elizabeth Courtenay (died 1 October 1518) married by 1507, Sir John Rogers of Bryanston (died 9 June 1535), and had issue.
6) Eleanor Courtenay (died by 1530), married 1519, Sir John Ragland of Carnllwyd (died after 1530), and had issue.
7) Anne Courtenay married Thomas Gibbes of Venton, and had issue.
8) Cecily Courtenay married Nicholas Francis of Combe Florey

Sir William Courtenay III of Powderham Castle, born by 1485, died 24 November 1535. Married 1st by 1506, Margaret Edgcumbe (died by 1512), dau of Sir Richard Edgcumbe of Cotehele & Joan Tremayne, and had at least 2 sons:
1) George Courtenay, Heir of Powderham Castle (born about 1506, died 1533) married Katherine St Leger, and had issue.
2) Sir Peter Courtenay of Ugbrook Park (born about 1508, died 20 May 1552) married Elizabeth Shilston, and had issue.
Sir William III married 2nd by 1512, Mary Gainsford, dau of Sir John Gainsford of Crowhurst & Anne Haute, and had further issue, at least 2 daus:
3) Gertrude Courtenay (1521-1566) married Sir John Chichester of Raleigh (born about 1520, died 30 November 1568), and had issue.
4) Mary Courtenay married Christopher Copleston of Warleigh House (died 27 November 1586).

> There's no evidence that this Thomas Rogers was related to the Rogers
> family of Bryanston, although many people have guessed at possible
> connections, some of which have been repeated enough to be have become
> established as "fact". The Bradford family had an entirely different
> coat of arms to the Bryanston family, not just the minor changes you
> normally expect in a cadet branch of a family. I'm not ruling out the
> possibility that they're related, but absent any evidence, it seems more
> likely that Thomas's family had only recently risen from relatively
> obscurity.

Thank you. Yes, I agree that the heraldry is evidence the two Rogers families were not related.

> It's worth noting that there were two roughly contemporaneous people
> called Thomas Rogers: the sergeant at law from Bradford on Avon, Wilts,
> and a gentleman from Benham Valence, Berks. Many recent sources
> conflate the two. Thomas of Benham Valence was undoubtedly connected to
> the Bryanston family: he was the grandson of one of the early John
> Rogers of Bryanston. The only question is which John? Sir Henry's
> grandfather or great grandfather?

I don't know about Thomas Rogers of Benham Valence. I have the husband of Katherine Courtenay of Powderham Castle as Thomas Rogers of Smallbroke (c.1438-1478), son of Thomas Rogers of Bristol. I believe it was either Louise Staley or Sheila Yeo who gave me the particulars of this Thomas Rogers. Both Louise and Sheila, excellent researchers, were SocGenMed members who were so helpful to me when I first looked into the Courtenays in some detail.

> As I'm sure you've now found out, Hutchins, 3rd ed, vol 1, p 250 is just
> a extract from the 1853 genealogy given in Misc. Gen. et Her.

I didn't know this, Richard, thanks. I'll take a look at that 1853 Rogers pedigree.

> I estimate that the marriage of John Rogers to Elizabeth Courtenay
> happened sometime between 1485 and 1505, which suggests Elizabeth was
> born between 1460 and 1490. The uncertainty is because we have no clear
> idea of when either this John or his son John (with the HOP article)
> were born. The older John's father was born in the late 1440s, and the
> younger John's eldest son was born in the mid 1520s. This leaves about
> 20 years of slack in the intervening chronology.

I think Sir William Courtenay II of Powderham Castle (see above) works best chronologically as Elizabeth Courtenay Rogers's father, but it's just possible, as you point out, that Sir William I was her father.

> I'm even less sure when the marriage of Thomas Rogers to Katherine
> Courtenay happened, but probably between 1450 and 1480, bearing in mind
> it was Thomas's second marriage.

I have them married about 1472, and their son George Rogers of Langport born about 1475.

> It's possible that Katherine and
> Elizabeth were sisters, but as you say, it seems more likely they were
> aunt and niece.

I've realized since they can't be sisters at all. I now feel they were great-aunt and niece.

> According to Hutchins and the 1853 genealogy, Dorothy was his third wife.

I currently only have two wives for Sir John Rogers: Elizabeth Courtenay & Dorothy Ifield. Thanks for the fact that there was a third - I will definitely look at that 1853 pedigree.

I haven't had a look at the Courtenays of Powderham Castle in awhile. Thanks, Richard, for sharing the further research you've done.

Cheers, -----Brad