Richard Rich again
lostc...@yahoo.com
purported to be the son of Richard Rich. Various responses and my
continuing research found that the individual in question was not
Edward but Richard. Having found the information I was looking for, I
would like to offer a connection between Richard Rich and some early
American colonists by way of the son Richard.
Richard Rich was the father of another Richard, born about 1550-died
about 1600 in London. The younger Richard's mother is unknown but the
fact that she was not the elder Richard's wife is mentioned. The
younger Richard married Jane Machell (c. 1550- c. 1630) on or about 13
December 1574.
The daughter of the younger Richard Rich and Jane Machell, Jane Rich,
married Thomas Grimsditch, born 1600 at St. Giles, Cripplegate, London-
died 1695. Their daughter, Frances Grimsditch was born 16 June 1621 at
Cripplegate and died 1716 in Port Royal, Bermuda.
Frances married Richard Hunt, the Governor of Bermuda, born 9 October
1608 at Mereworth, Kent-died 1686 in Port Royal, Bermuda. Their
daughter, Judith Hunt, married on 14 Feb 1660 Henry Durham, born
about 1634 in Port Royal, Bermuda-died about 1690 in North Farnham,
Virginia.
Although there is no royal ascent, so far as I know, it is interesting
to trace Richard Rich's descendants to Virginia by way of Bermuda (at
least for me). I gather, from the SGM archives, that Richard Rich, the
1st Baron, was an unsavory and villainous character.
Sources:
Mention of Richard Rich as a "base son" of Richard Rich, 1st Baron, is
in the will of Robert Rich, 2nd Baron Rich of Leeze, cited in
MEMORIALS OF THE DISCOVERY AND EARLY SETTLEMENT OF THE BERMUDAS by
John Henry Lefroy, Longmans, Green & Co. Pub., 1879, and Woton's
BARONETCY OF ENGLAND, 1741.
The Rich-Grimsditch relationship is found in the will of Nathaniel
Riche, son of Richard Rich and Jane Machell. He mentions three
sisters, Margery Wroth, another Browne, and Jane "the wife of Thomas
Grimsditch". The text of the will may be found in the above work by
Lefroy and in BIOGRAPHIA NAVALIS by John Charnock, R. Faulder Pub.,
1795.
The marriage of Judith Hunt and Henry Durham is mentioned in "Bermuda
Settlers of the 17th Century" in GENEALOGICAL NOTES FROM BERMUDA,
vols. xxiii-xxix, 1942-1947.
The eventual settlement in Virginia is from the birth of the son of
Henry Durham and Judith Hunt, Thomas Durham, on 6 Mqrch 1661, in North
Farnham, Virginia. He married Dorothy Smoot. The will of William Smoot
left land to his daughter Dorothy, wife of Thomas Durham, in Virginia
in 1700 according to THE SMOOTS OF MAYLAND AND VIRGINIA by Harry
Wright Newman, 1936.
Hope this might be of interest to someone and I welcome criticism - I
have a lot to learn about doing this right. Bronwen Edwards
wjhonson
>
> The eventual settlement in Virginia is from the birth of the son of
> Henry Durham and Judith Hunt, Thomas Durham, on 6 Mqrch 1661, in North
> Farnham, Virginia. He married Dorothy Smoot. The will of William Smoot
> left land to his daughter Dorothy, wife of Thomas Durham, in Virginia
> in 1700 according to THE SMOOTS OF MAYLAND AND VIRGINIA by Harry
> Wright Newman, 1936.
>
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gohrpage/durham.html
"Recently the idea that Thomas Durham (b. ca. 1660) was the son of
Henry Durham and wife Judith Hunt of Bermuda has been proven false."
Will Johnson
wjhonson
What source tells us that Thomas Grimsditch was born in 1600 and died
in 1695?
What source tells us that Richard Rich was born about 1560 ?
What source gives us the "approx" date of his marriage?
Will
lostc...@yahoo.com
I knew I could count on you! Looking at the article to which you gave
the link, I see the word "proven" used but do not see the proof. I
only see that questions arose to which the author had no answer. In
regard to Thomas Durham being in Virginia, he witnessed the reading of
a will for which the executor was William Smoot and one beneficiary
was Mary Smoot (VIRGINIA COUNTY RECORDS, vol. 1-x, 1905-1912, William
Armstrong Crozier, ed., New York Genealogical Association, 1905. and
"In 1700 William Smoot, Sr., of North Farnham Parish, Richmond County,
conveyed acres of land for love and affection to Dorothy, the wife of
Thomas Durham..." THE SMOOTS OF MARYLAND AND VIRGINIA by Harry Wright
Newman, 1936. Your link suggested that the information making Thomas
son of Henry & Judith came from IGI; I did not even consult IGI for
it. I have yet to look at the reference on Rootsweb that your link
cited and perhaps the proof is more clearly laid out there that my
Thomas is not the son of Henry.
lostc...@yahoo.com
Hello again, my trusty Socrates. The information on Thomas Grimsditch
and his daughter Frances comes from several sources. "The will of
Robert, 2nd Lord Riche of Leeze...makes mention of a 'base son',
Richard, the common phrase of the day for illegitimacy. This son is
distinctly stated in Wotton's BARONETCY OF ENGLAND, 1741, to have been
the father of Sir Nathaniel Riche, Kt., and of Margery Riche. Sir
Nathaniel Riche, in his own last will, proved in 1636, mentions three
sisters, viz. his sister Wroth probably this Margery, his sister
Browne, and his sister Jane, the wife of Thomas Grimsditch...he
bequeathed shares of land in Bermuda to [trustee] be seized over to
such child or children of Sir Thomas Grimsditch and Jane" as they
chose. Being the eldest, the chosen heir was Frances. From MEMORIALS
OF THE DISCOVERY AND EARLY SETTLEMENT OF THE BERMUDAS by John Henry
Lefroy, Longmans Green & Co., Pubs., 1879. The will printed also in
its entirety in BIOGRAPHIA NAVALIS by John Charnock, R. Faulder, Pub.,
1795, and in MISCELLANEA GENEALOGICA ET HERALDICA by Joseph Jackson
Howard, 1904, p. 62. The marriage of Henry Durham and Judith Hunt is
also discussed in THE STILES FAMILY IN AMERICA by Henry Reed Stiles,
1895, and in "Bermuda Settlers of the 17th Century" in GENEALOGICAL
NOTES FROM BERMUDA, vols. xxiii-xxix, 1942-1947.
Knowing that you are a tenacious soccer mom (using Palin's definition
sans lipstick), I am continuing to explore the questions you posted
and will get back shortly.
lostc...@yahoo.com
Oh, one more thing. Richard Rich's birth date is not given as about
1560; it is about 1550.
WJho...@aol.com
questioned.
The only give *relationships* without specifying *when* these things
occurred except in very vague terms.
In a message dated 1/16/2009 10:20:24 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
lostc...@yahoo.com writes:
On Jan 15, 11:50 pm, wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> I would also caution these years used.
>
> What source tells us that Thomas Grimsditch was born in 1600 and died
> in 1695?
>
> What source tells us that Richard Rich was born about 1560 ?
>
> What source gives us the "approx" date of his marriage?
>
> Will
Hello again, my trusty Socrates. The information on Thomas Grimsditch
and his daughter Frances comes from several sources. "The will of
Robert, 2nd Lord Riche of Leeze...makes mention of a 'base son',
Richard, the common phrase of the day for illegitimacy. This son is
distinctly stated in Wotton's BARONETCY OF ENGLAND, 1741, to have been
the father of Sir Nathaniel Riche, Kt., and of Margery Riche. Sir
Nathaniel Riche, in his own last will, proved in 1636, mentions three
sisters, viz. his sister Wroth probably this Margery, his sister
Browne, and his sister Jane, the wife of Thomas Grimsditch...he
bequeathed shares of land in Bermuda to [trustee] be seized over to
such child or children of Sir Thomas Grimsditch and Jane" as they
chose. Being the eldest, the chosen heir was Frances. From MEMORIALS
OF THE DISCOVERY AND EARLY SETTLEMENT OF THE BERMUDAS by John Henry
Lefroy, Longmans Green & Co., Pubs., 1879. The will printed also in
its entirety in BIOGRAPHIA NAVALIS by John Charnock, R. Faulder, Pub.,
1795, and in MISCELLANEA GENEALOGICA ET HERALDICA by Joseph Jackson
Howard, 1904, p. 62. The marriage of Henry Durham and Judith Hunt is
also discussed in THE STILES FAMILY IN AMERICA by Henry Reed Stiles,
1895, and in "Bermuda Settlers of the 17th Century" in GENEALOGICAL
NOTES FROM BERMUDA, vols. xxiii-xxix, 1942-1947.
Knowing that you are a tenacious soccer mom (using Palin's definition
sans lipstick), I am continuing to explore the questions you posted
and will get back shortly.
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In a message dated 1/16/2009 10:20:22 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
lostc...@yahoo.com writes:
Oh, one more thing. Richard Rich's birth date is not given as about
1560; it is about 1550.
**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
wjhonson
> I knew I could count on you! Looking at the article to which you gave
> the link, I see the word "proven" used but do not see the proof. I
> only see that questions arose to which the author had no answer. In
> regard to Thomas Durham being in Virginia, he witnessed the reading of
> a will for which the executor was William Smoot and one beneficiary
> was Mary Smoot (VIRGINIA COUNTY RECORDS, vol. 1-x, 1905-1912, William
> Armstrong Crozier, ed., New York Genealogical Association, 1905. and
> "In 1700 William Smoot, Sr., of North Farnham Parish, Richmond County,
> conveyed acres of land for love and affection to Dorothy, the wife of
> Thomas Durham..." THE SMOOTS OF MARYLAND AND VIRGINIA by Harry Wright
> Newman, 1936. Your link suggested that the information making Thomas
> son of Henry & Judith came from IGI; I did not even consult IGI for
> it. I have yet to look at the reference on Rootsweb that your link
> cited and perhaps the proof is more clearly laid out there that my
> Thomas is not the son of Henry.
If you read that webpage I cited, you will see that there is a large
flaw in this.
They are not stating that Thomas Durham didn't exist.
What they appear to be stating is that there is no evidence that
Thomas Durham of Bermuda is the same person as Thomas Durham of North
Farnham.
That's the sticky wicket. Was there one Thomas? Two Thomas? Nineteen
Thomas? That's the essential problem in most of these
reconstructions. Someone finds a man of the same man, and voila they
are the same person.
Only they may not be.
Will
lostc...@yahoo.com
I took a look at your link's reference in the "proving" that my Thomas
in Virginia was not the same as Thomas Durham, son of Henry, in
Bermuda. The letter from Bermuda on which the writer hangs her "proof"
says "This [court case] seems to suggest that Thomas was living in
Bermuda and not America, though I can trace no direct proof." The
issue was a court case involving land that had recently been occupied
or used by Judith Durham (Hunt) but was to be occupied by Daniel
Durham, son of Thomas. At no point does it become obvious that Thomas
is in Bermuda; he may well have been conducting his Bermuda affairs
from Virginia. I think that the writer who believes that she has
disproven the Virginia-Bermuda link is reading too much into the court
case as it was laid out in the letter from Bermuda. Of course, there
is also no proof that Bermuda Thomas was in fact Virginia Thomas
either. I agree that there is more than enough cause to put out the
red flag and slow down, but I am not ready to throw in the towel on
the basis of one person's interpretation of the letter from Bermuda.
The writer from Bermuda went on to say that finding the will of Henry
Durham would clear up the location of his son, Thomas. At present it
seems that no one has been able to locate the will. I'm not sure how
much chance I have of finding anything from my desk in California, but
I will be looking.
Thank you, as always, for tightening up my brakes while I am in full
throttle.
lma...@att.net
On Jan 15, 10:30 pm, lostcoo...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Some time ago I posed a question to the group about an "Edward" Rich
> purported to be the son of Richard Rich. Various responses and my
> continuing research found that the individual in question was not
> Edward but Richard. Having found the information I was looking for, I
> would like to offer a connection between Richard Rich and some early
> American colonists by way of the son Richard.
>
> Richard Rich was the father of another Richard, born about 1550-died
> about 1600 in London. The younger Richard's mother is unknown but the
> fact that she was not the elder Richard's wife is mentioned. The
> younger Richard married Jane Machell (c. 1550- c. 1630) on or about 13
> December 1574.
>
Notice that Weiss, _Ancestral Roots_, states that "Anne" Machell was
married to "Nicholas" Rich, and they were grandparents of Nathaniel
Browne
of Connecticut:
Only available in snippet view:
The same names are given in Richardson's _Magna Carta Ancestry_:
http://books.google.com/books?id=wHZcIRMhSEMC&pg=PA750&dq=nicholas+rich+ann+machell&lr=
The source cited is TAG 22 (1945-6), which hopefully has the correct
information.
Leslie
lostc...@yahoo.com
> On Jan 15, 10:30 pm, lostcoo...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > Some time ago I posed a question to the group about an "Edward" Rich
> > purported to be the son of Richard Rich. Various responses and my
> > continuing research found that the individual in question was not
> > Edward but Richard. Having found the information I was looking for, I
> > would like to offer a connection between Richard Rich and some early
> > American colonists by way of the son Richard.
>
> > Richard Rich was the father of another Richard, born about 1550-died
> > about 1600 in London. The younger Richard's mother is unknown but the
> > fact that she was not the elder Richard's wife is mentioned. The
> > younger Richard married Jane Machell (c. 1550- c. 1630) on or about 13
> > December 1574.
>
> Notice that Weiss, _Ancestral Roots_, states that "Anne" Machell was
> married to "Nicholas" Rich, and they were grandparents of Nathaniel
> Browne
> of Connecticut:
>
> Only available in snippet view:
>
>
> The same names are given in Richardson's _Magna Carta Ancestry_:
>
>
> The source cited is TAG 22 (1945-6), which hopefully has the correct
> information.
>
> Leslie
There may be some confusion regarding the illegitimate son of Richard
Rich, 1st Baron Leeze. Richard is the name of the "base son" according
to Wotton's BARONETCY OF ENGLAND, 1741. He was married to Jane (not
Anne) Machell (VISITATIONS OF ESSEX 1552 , 1878, p. 441). It is
unclear if she is daughter of John Machell & Jane Luddington or of
their son Mathew Machell & Mary Lewknor as stated in VISITATIONS, p.
441. The dates work out better for the latter as well, if they are
correct. I recall seeing yet another version on Genealogics; I will go
there in a minute and look again, then get back to you.
Thanks for the response, Bronwen
lostc...@yahoo.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
I'm back - Leo shows Richard Rich (the younger & husband of Jane
Machell) as illegitimate son of Robert, 2nd Baron Rich of Leeze, who
of course was the legitimate son of Richard Rich, 1st Baron, &
Elizabeth Jenks. He then shows Jane Rich as the daughter of Richard
the younger and Jane Machell. The sources cited are Wotton, Lefroy
and Paget. It was Wotton and Lefroy that I used for finding Richard
the younger as illegitimate son of Richard 1st Baron. I have not been
able to see Paget yet; I see a trip to the university library in my
near future. The dates work out okay for both scenarios: the dates I
have for the younger Richard are 1550-1600, married in 1574 and for
Jane Machell, 1550-1630.
lostc...@yahoo.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
Hi, it's me again. I went back to both Wotton and Lefroy to look again
at what Leo and I had used. Wotton is quite clear in saying that the
younger Richard Rich was the bastard son of Richard Rich, 1st Baron
Leeze. "Besides these [children of his wife] he [1st Baron] had
several natural children, namely Mary, wife of ----Frank of Hatfield
in Essex, Gent., another daughter wife of Richard Barley of Essenham
in Essex, Esq., a third married to one Draper of Braintree; and a son,
called Richard Rich, who had issue Sir Nathaniel Rich, Knt., and
Margery."
Lefroy, then, cited Wotton in saying that "the will of Robert, 2nd
Lord Riche of Leeze, makes mention of a 'base son' , Richard, the
common phrase of the day for illegitimacy." Looking at this statement
a second time, I see that Lefroy did not state that the bastard son
was Richard's (1st Baron) but leaves it open to assume that the
bastard son was Robert's (2nd Baron), as Leo says. Thus, my Jane Rich
who married Thomas Grimsditch was either granddaughter or great-
granddaughter of Richard, 1st Baron. I am running out of fingers to
count on.
None of this, of course, helps me find the definite link between
Thomas Durham in Bermuda and Thomas Durham in Virginia. I did find,
however, that Bermuda was actually a part of the Virginia colony and
always had close ties; it was even called "Virgineola" during the
early days of British colonialism. I also learned that it was common
for Bermuda planters to have land in Virginia. That doesn't prove
anything about Thomas Durham, but it raises the level of possibility
that they may have been the same person. Even the Jamestown settlers
appear to have gone to Virginia from Bermuda, according to the (ahem,
Wiki-source) I used.
jonv...@yahoo.com
>
> None of this, of course, helps me find the definite link between
> Thomas Durham in Bermuda and Thomas Durham in Virginia. I did find,
> however, that Bermuda was actually a part of the Virginia colony and
> always had close ties; it was even called "Virgineola" during the
> early days of British colonialism. I also learned that it was common
> for Bermuda planters to have land in Virginia. That doesn't prove
> anything about Thomas Durham, but it raises the level of possibility
> that they may have been the same person. Even the Jamestown settlers
> appear to have gone to Virginia from Bermuda, according to the (ahem,
> Wiki-source) I used.
1. Both the father and the son of Thomas Durham of Bermuda were mariners, leading to the supposition that Thomas was also a mariner.
2. In Bermuda, the settlers (company employees) were forbidden to build ships, to encourage them to grow tobacco. This meant that mariners had to establish relationships with shipwrights and boatwrights elsewhere.
3. Thomas Durham of Richmond County married, for his second wife, Dorothy Gilbert(?), granddaughter of William Smoot, BOATWRIGHT of Charles County, Maryland.
The evidence that Dorothy was Thomas's second wife comes from a deed from William Smoot, Jr. and from Thomas Durham's will, both of which identify son Thomas, Jr. as the eldest son of DOROTHY (not of Thomas). I am descended from Thomas's presumed elder son Samuel, who in 1704 witnessed the wills of two first cousins of Dorothy (Gilbert?) Durham. Sources are on Samuel and Thomas Durham's wikitree profiles at http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Durham-206
D. Spencer Hines
DSH
"A vaincre sans peril, on triomphe sans gloire." -- Pierre Corneille
[1606-1684]
"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and
conscientious stupidity."
Martin Luther King, Jr.
wrote in message
news:94774d06-6edf-4851...@googlegroups.com...
jonv...@yahoo.com
D. Spencer Hines
Cornwall and was allegedly the son of Robert Rich and Susanna Bean Rich?
DSH
"À vaincre sans péril, on triomphe sans gloire." -- Pierre Corneille
"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and
conscientious stupidity."
Martin Luther King, Jr.
wrote in message
news:252011d7-e99d-4645...@googlegroups.com...
jonv...@yahoo.com
> The Nathaniel Rich you mention below was allegedly born about 1620 in
> Cornwall and was allegedly the son of Robert Rich and Susanna Bean Rich?
>
> DSH
>
> Durham and wife Judith Hunt, who was the daughter of Richard Hunt and
> Frances Grimsditch, daughter of Thomas Grimsditch by Jane, sister of
> Nathaniel Rich, who left a lifetime interest in his Bermuda property to the
> Grimsditches. Nathaniel Rich was also a correspondent of Thomas Hunt of
> Bermuda, presumed father of Gov. Henry Durham.
"Rich was connected with the Bermudas Company in 1616, and bought shares in the Virginia Company in 1619. Of the latter company he became a prominent member, and when, in April 1623, there occurred the great split between two factions in the company, he took a leading part on the side of his connection, Robert Rich, second earl of Warwick [q. v.] ... In his will he named several of the Rich (Warwick) family." And he also mentioned his nephew Thomas Grimsditch, son of his sister Jane.
Nathaniel Rich's brother Robert (whose death in Bermuda occasioned a letter from Thomas Durham to Nathaniel Rich) married a Dutton, and it is interesting to note that Thomas Grimsditch, husband of Nathaniel Rich's sister Jane, was also descended from the Duttons through his mother's Nuthall family of Frodsham, Cheshire.
D. Spencer Hines
Thank you.
DSH
"À vaincre sans péril, on triomphe sans gloire." -- Pierre Corneille
[1606-1684]
"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and
conscientious stupidity."
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Strength to Love - Jan 1963
From: jonv...@yahoo.com
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2016 7:05 AM Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Subject: Re: Richard Rich again
On Thursday, July 14, 2016 at 9:27:17 PM UTC+3, D. Spencer Hines wrote:
> The Nathaniel Rich you mention below was allegedly born about 1620 in
> Cornwall and was allegedly the son of Robert Rich and Susanna Bean Rich?
>
> DSH
>
> Thomas Durham of Bermuda was the eldest son of (Acting) Governor Henry
> Durham and wife Judith Hunt, who was the daughter of Richard Hunt and
> Frances Grimsditch, daughter of Thomas Grimsditch by Jane, sister of
> Nathaniel Rich, who left a lifetime interest in his Bermuda property to
> the
> Grimsditches. Nathaniel Rich was also a correspondent of Thomas Hunt of
> Bermuda, presumed father of Gov. Henry Durham.
Um no, according to the Dictionary of National Biography: "RICH, Sir
[q. v.] His mother was daughter of John Machell, sheriff of London. He had a