Richard LYMAN

[Gordon Fisher]

At 01:35 PM 4/12/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Several of us descend from Richard LYMAN b. ca. 1580 High Ongar, Essex, Eng.
>d. 1640 Hartford CT, m. Sarah -----.
>
>Richard was the son of Henry LYMAN and Elizabeth RANDE, and is supposed to
>have a royal ancestry. Any information would be greatly appreciated.
>
>Thank you,
>
>Gee Gee
>
>

Where did you hear about Richard LYMAN's royal ancestry?

In vol. 25 of *Search for the Passengers of the Mary & John*, published by
The Mary & John Clearing House, with address Burton W Spear, 5602 305th St,
Toledo, Ohio 43611, on p 88-93 there are lists showing a descent of this
Richard LYMAN from "Wodin or Odin (Roman Othinus), King of North Europe
about 225 A.D." The connection to royalty appears to rest on the claim that
Elizabeth LAMBERT, a 3ggm of Richard, who married a Thomas LYMAN, no dates
given for either, although it is stated that Thomas LYMAN "Succeeded his
father as possessor of the estate at Navistoke and Wethersfield, Kent," and
that Elizabeth LAMBERT was daughter of Henry LAMBERT of High Ongar, Essex,
"in the reign of Henry VII (1485-1509."

There is a statement preceding the 5 lists which reads: "The following
ancestral lines are abstracts taken from *Descendants of John Clark of New
Haven, Connecticut*, by Lloyd Walter (Clark) Hoagland, 1990. No publisher
or city of publication is given. I haven't seen this work. There are no
further sources for individual entries in these ancestor lists, only a
bibliography of sources applying to each of 5 lists.

For example, in the first list, Richard Lyman is traced back to a Soberton
Leman who "Lived in the reign of William the Conqueror (1066-1087). The
additional
sources for this list are *Hall Ancestry*, Charles S Hall, G P Putnam's
Sons, 1896; *Genealogy of the Lyman family in Great Britain and America*,
Lyman Coleman, D.D., 1872; and *Burke's American Families with British
Ancestry*, Genealogical Publishing Co, 1977.

For another example, the transition from Elizabeth LAMBERT to "Sir
Radulphus, Knight, Grandson of Lambert, Count of Lorraine and Mons, France,"
is supported by *Matthews Complete American Armoury and Blue Book*, by John
Matthews (no date or publisher given); MacKenzies *Colonial Families of the
United States*; *History of Ancient Woodbury, CT*, William Cothren, vol. 2
(no date given -- published by Bronson Brothers, Waterbury CT); *The Middle
Ages, by Edward Maslin Hulme "professor of history at Stanford University,
1929" (no publisher given(; and the Lyman genealogy of the last paragraph.
Among the sources listed in support of a descent from Wodin (or Odin) to
"Lady Agnes Cumyn" ("She married Gilbert de Emfraville") to Wodin (or Odin)
is "The New Century Cyclopedia of Names," edited by Clarence L Barnhart (no
date or publisher given).

You may make your own judgment about the validity of this material.

Gordon Fisher gfi...@shentel.net

[Gee Gee Hughes]

Gordon,

Thank you for the LYMAN information. Of course I am disappointed, but I
would much rather know the truth.

Thank you again for taking the time to type all of that in.

Gee Gee

[Ed Mann]

GE>Several of us descend from Richard LYMAN b. ca. 1580 High Ongar, Essex, Eng.
GE>d. 1640 Hartford CT, m. Sarah -----.

GE>Richard was the son of Henry LYMAN and Elizabeth RANDE, and is supposed to
GE>have a royal ancestry. Any information would be greatly appreciated.

FDR is also supposedly descended from Richard Lyman, whose wife was
Sarah Osborn.

Here is a descent from Henry I of England, through Richard Lyman, to
FDR. I have respectable sources for the first 11 generations (Weis,
either Ancestral Roots or Magna Charta Sureties). The rest I got from
Broderbund's World Family Tree, so while it may be useful as a
construct, I wouldn't bet the farm on it. Burke's Presidential Families
does show the last three generations ((1-25) through (1-27)).

(1-1) Henry I of England = unknown mistress
(1-2) Elizabeth = Fergus of Galloway
(1-3) Uchtred of Galloway = Gunnild of Dunbar
(1-4) Roland of Galloway = Elena de Morville
(1-5) Alan of Galloway = Helen de L'Isle
(1-6) Helen of Galloway = Roger de Quincy
(1-7) Elizabeth de Quincy = Alexander Comyn
(1-8) Elizabeth Comyn = Gilbert de Umfreville
(1-9) Robert de Umfreville = Alainor
(1-10) Thomas de Umfreville = Joan de Roddam
(1-11) Thomas de Umfreville = Agnes de Grey
(1-12) Joan de Umfreville = William Lambert
(1-13) Robert Lambert = ?
(1-14) Henry Lambert = ?
(1-15) Elizabeth Lambert = Thomas Lyman
(1-16) Henry Lyman = Alicia Hyde
(1-17) John Lyman = Margaret Gerard
(1-18) Henry Lyman = Alicia Hyde
(1-19) Richard Lyman = Sarah Osborn
(1-20) John Lyman = Dorcas Plumb
(1-21) Benjamin Lyman = Thankful Pomeroy
(1-22) Joseph Lyman = Abigail Lewis
(1-23) Joseph Lyman = Mary Sheldon
(1-24) Joseph Lyman = Anne Jean Robbins
(1-25) Catharine Robbins Lyman = Warren Delano
(1-26) Sara Ann Delano = James Roosevelt
(1-27) Franklin Delano Roosevelt = Anna Eleanor Roosevelt

Send me your E-Mail address and I'll send more detail.

[Gordon Fisher]

At 11:32 PM 4/12/97 -0500, you wrote:
>GE>Several of us descend from Richard LYMAN b. ca. 1580 High Ongar, Essex, Eng.
>GE>d. 1640 Hartford CT, m. Sarah -----.
>
>GE>Richard was the son of Henry LYMAN and Elizabeth RANDE, and is supposed to
>GE>have a royal ancestry. Any information would be greatly appreciated.
>
>FDR is also supposedly descended from Richard Lyman, whose wife was
>Sarah Osborn.
>

In *Ancestors of American Presidents*, 1st authoritative edition, published
by Carl Boyer 3rd in cooperation with NEHGS, 1995, there is an ancestor list
for FDR on p 79-86 which shows John Lyman (1623-1690) and his wife Dorcas
Plum as ancestors of FDR. Although this list stops too soon to show it, this
John Lyman was son of Richard Lyman and Sarah Osborn(e), so according to
this work, FDR does have Richard and Sarah as an ancestor.

On the other hand, in *The Royal Descents of 500 Immigrants* by Gary Boyd
Roberts, 1993, one finds of p 394 a descent from Henry I of England through
Anne Jean Robbins, wife of Joseph Lyman. This Joseph has Richard Lyman as a
3 ggf. But the descent is through the wife of Joseph, so Richard is not in
this line

Also in *The Royal Descents ... *, one finds on p 397 a descent from Henry I
of England through Abigail Moseley, wife of John Lyman, who had Richard
Lyman as ggf. But again, the descent is not through Richard.

Also in that work on p 266 there is a descent from Edward I through the
husband Warren Delano, Jr, of Catherine Robbins Lyman who had Richard as a
3ggf, but again not through Richard.

On p 234 there is a descent from Edward I through Anne Jean Robbins who was
wife of Joseph Robbins who had Richard as a 2ggf, and who was father of
Catherine Robbins Lyman (see previous paragraph). Again, Richard Lyman is
not in this line.

On p 66 there is a descent from James II of Scotland through the Anne Jean
Robbins of the previous paragraph and then through her daughter Catherine.
Again, Richard is not in the line.

This is all the Lymans in the book *The Royal Descents of 500 Immigrants*.

Gordon Fisher gfi...@shentel.net

[snip]

[Sandy McDougall]

At 11:32 PM 4/12/97 -0500, you wrote:

The rest I got from
>Broderbund's World Family Tree, so while it may be useful as a
>construct, I wouldn't bet the farm on it. Burke's Presidential Families
>does show the last three generations ((1-25) through (1-27)).
>

>(1-16) Henry Lyman = Alicia Hyde
>(1-17) John Lyman = Margaret Gerard
>(1-18) Henry Lyman = Alicia Hyde
>(1-19) Richard Lyman = Sarah Osborn

Gen (1-16) and (1-18), is this correct?

Thanks, Sandy
sa...@mosquitonet.com

[Todd A. Farmerie]

Ed Mann wrote:
>
> GE>Several of us descend from Richard LYMAN b. ca. 1580 High Ongar, Essex, Eng.
> GE>d. 1640 Hartford CT, m. Sarah -----.
>
> GE>Richard was the son of Henry LYMAN and Elizabeth RANDE, and is supposed to
> GE>have a royal ancestry. Any information would be greatly appreciated.
>
> FDR is also supposedly descended from Richard Lyman, whose wife was
> Sarah Osborn.
>

> Here is a descent from Henry I of England, through Richard Lyman, to
> FDR. I have respectable sources for the first 11 generations (Weis,

> either Ancestral Roots or Magna Charta Sureties). The rest I got from

> Broderbund's World Family Tree, so while it may be useful as a
> construct, I wouldn't bet the farm on it. Burke's Presidential Families
> does show the last three generations ((1-25) through (1-27)).

> (1-15) Elizabeth Lambert = Thomas Lyman

> (1-16) Henry Lyman = Alicia Hyde
> (1-17) John Lyman = Margaret Gerard

BREAK! Ignoring all of the questions about the Lamberts, the pedigree
cannot be supported prior to Henry, father of Immigrant Richard, who
married Elizabeth Rande, and was possibly son of another Henry. This
all appeared in TAG many moons ago. There is no supportable royal
descent here.

> (1-18) Henry Lyman = Alicia Hyde
> (1-19) Richard Lyman = Sarah Osborn

taf

[jeff...@bellsouth.net]

I agree that there is no provable royal descent for Richard Lyman. The article that briefly describes what is known about his English ancestry can be found in TAG 30: 187-90 (1954) by Donald Lines Jacobus and Clarence Almond Torrey. The list of his descendants includes all as 6th great grandsons Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Wilbur and Orville Wight, J. P. Morgan and Samuel Colt. The basis for the supposed royal line appeared in the “Life of Admiral George Dewey” published in 1898. Admiral Dewey is a Richard Lyman descendant. But the early English ancestry is a concoction which was all too fashionable in genealogies of that period.

[The Hoorn]

I'm also a maternal descendant of Richard Lyman, and you and Todd are correct: No proven royal lineage. In fact, Richard's wife Sarah's surname is unknown. Some secondary sources call her Sarah, daughter of Roger Osborne of Halstead, Kent, but I haven't seen any documentary evidence to support that conclusion.

[Mike Beidler]

On Thursday, June 28, 2018 at 8:53:51 PM UTC-4, Steve Barnhoorn wrote:
> I'm also a maternal descendant of Richard Lyman, and you and Todd are correct: No proven royal lineage. In fact, Richard's wife Sarah's surname is unknown. Some secondary sources call her Sarah, daughter of Roger Osborne of Halstead, Kent, but I haven't seen any documentary evidence to support that conclusion.

I'm a paternal descendant of Richard Lyman, discovered only recently while verifying another Revolutionary War Patriot ancestor, John Lyman (1760-1840). I was more than a little surprised to come across the Lyman family history book's claims of Richard's royal roots. Of course, I cast a critical eye and am not surprised that much of it very well may be the result of family legends and wishful thinking. In my genealogical research, I've verified some family "legends," turning them into documented facts, and debunked others, relegating them to the dustbins of myth. Always appreciative of the truth and the honest folks in this thread.

Best regards,
Mike