Domesday Essex - Humfrid Aurei Testiculi
Sutliff
possibly translate to what I think it does?
Thanks,
Henry Sutliff
Chris Phillips
Sutliff wrote:
> This man is listed at DP:272. My Latin is somewhat rusty, but can his
name
> possibly translate to what I think it does?
I've never quite understood the comment on this name in Appendix C of
Complete Peerage vol. 3 (p. 610):
"When a clerk had to render a name in a charter he usually sought for the
nearest Latin equivalent, sometimes he took a correct one, as de Bello Campo
for Beauchamp; sometimes a grotesque one, such as de Aureis Testiculis(b)
for Orescuilz (now preserved in Sampford Orcas), or (which occurs in a
Lincoln Charter) such as Pedechen and Pedeken for Hundfot, i.e. Hounds foot;
and in the Kirkstead Chartulary, Twowilhes, whose real name, Twowithies or
Willows, is shown by his appearing elsewhere as de Duabus Salicibus;
sometimes a very dubious one ... often one wholly wrong ..."
The footnote doesn't help me much:
"(b) The Italian family of Colleoni bore three scrotums proper on their
shield. (W. Paley Baildon)."
But the implication seems to be that it's the correct Latin equivalent of a
grotesque nickname. Maybe something akin to Roger Deus Salvaet Dominas ("God
save the ladies").
Which is it better to be called, "de Aureis Testiculis" or "Twowilhes"?
Chris Phillips
Stewart, Peter
> From: Sutliff [mailto:ss...@earthlink.net]
> Sent: Thursday, 9 January 2003 6:30
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Domesday Essex - Humfrid Aurei Testiculi
>
>
> This man is listed at DP:272. My Latin is somewhat rusty,
> but can his name possibly translate to what I think it does?
Yes, it does. What a pity he had only one, apparently.
Peter Stewart
Cristopher Nash
It's not something one talks about all the time, but in medieval
literary studies it's not uncommon to speak of the pun arising with
'testa' (showing up in later Romance languages, e.g. in French:
"tęte"), meaning both 'clay pot' and 'head' (e.g. in the famous story
of Boccaccio's in which the heroine places her lover's severed head
in a clay pot of basil). Allowing for this (if we must) the
diminutive 'test-icule' might mean nothing more unsettling than, say,
"Littlepot" or "Littlehead". As in the eloquent modern expressions
frequently encountered in the aisles of research libraries, for
example, to 'give a little pot' or ' -- a little head'.
Cris
--
Stewart, Peter
> From: Cristopher Nash [mailto:c...@windsong.u-net.com]
> Sent: Thursday, 9 January 2003 11:09
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: Domesday Essex - Humfrid Aurei Testiculi
>
<snip>
>
> It's not something one talks about all the time, but in medieval
> literary studies it's not uncommon to speak of the pun arising with
> 'testa' (showing up in later Romance languages, e.g. in French:
> "tęte"), meaning both 'clay pot' and 'head' (e.g. in the famous story
> of Boccaccio's in which the heroine places her lover's severed head
> in a clay pot of basil). Allowing for this (if we must) the
> diminutive 'test-icule' might mean nothing more unsettling than, say,
> "Littlepot" or "Littlehead". As in the eloquent modern expressions
> frequently encountered in the aisles of research libraries, for
> example, to 'give a little pot' or ' -- a little head'.
I don't imagine that too many people were going round in medieval England
identified by recondite puns. Even supposing you could find an instance of
either unlikely meaning for "testiculus", why would "Humphrey of the little
golden pot" or "head" make any more sense than the obvious?
Peter Stewart
Anne Gilbert
"Sutliff" <ss...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:O__S9.23192$9N5.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> This man is listed at DP:272. My Latin is somewhat rusty, but can his
name
> possibly translate to what I think it does?
If you're thinking "Humphrey Golden Balls", you got it!
Anne G
(Now why *was* he called that, I wonder?)
Apsg...@aol.com
From: <A HREF="mailto:reed...@aol.com">reed...@aol.com </A> (Reedpcgen)
Date: 1/8/2003 5:21 PM Mountain Standard Time
Message-id: <20030108192140...@mb-dh.aol.com>
The Conqueror and others were known to order a merciful emasculation, rather
than death, for certain grave offenses.
I wonder if it was at least better to have gold or jeweled ones, rather than
none at all. It makes one wonder, then, if they were buried with the
deceased,
or passed down as the family ..., well....
Paul
Renia
Fashionable before his time. He'd had 'em pierced.
Renia
Robert S Baxter
Henry:
Anne G,
Maybe he was the medieval equivalent of a pawnbroker-moneylender, whose
symbol
was three balls hanging out the door, although I thought this came from the
Medicis, whot?
Bob
The Bibliographer
Robert S Baxter <rsba...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>Maybe he was the medieval equivalent of a pawnbroker-moneylender, whose
>symbol
>was three balls hanging out the door, although I thought this came from the
>Medicis, whot?
Not the Medici at all -- the <palle> were six in number, but from the
symbol of Saint Nicholas, patron of the occupation. The iconography, in
turn, refers to the legend of the three dowries for the daughters of a
poor man of the town (Myra, not Bari). The balls represent the purses that
Nicholas pitched through the man's window at night.
--
Regards, Frank Young
tip...@wam.umd.edu 703-527-7684
Post Office Box 2793, Kensington, Maryland 20891
"Videmus nunc per speculum in aenigmate... Nunc cognosco ex parte"
GRHa...@aol.com
Apsg...@aol.com writes:
> The Conqueror and others were known to order a merciful emasculation, rather
> than death, for certain grave offenses.
>
Billy Bastard's law actually says something like, "Let no man be killed for a
criminal offense in my kingdom. Rather let him be blinded and castrated."
There are people who would rather die than have such happen to them, me
included.
Gordon Hale
Anne Gilbert
"Renia:
> Fashionable before his time. He'd had 'em pierced.
Too painful. Probably *painted* them.
Anne G
Anne Gilbert
Bob:
> Maybe he was the medieval equivalent of a pawnbroker-moneylender, whose
> symbol
> was three balls hanging out the door, although I thought this came from
the
> Medicis, whot?
Maybe the Medicis looked up Golden Balls?????
Anne G
Anne Gilbert
>
> Billy Bastard's law actually says something like, "Let no man be killed
for a
> criminal offense in my kingdom. Rather let him be blinded and castrated."
>
> There are people who would rather die than have such happen to them, me
> included.
Maybe Humphrey felt the same way?
Anne G
David R. Teague
David Teague
On Thu, 09 Jan 2003 21:07:30 GMT "Anne Gilbert" <avgi...@prodigy.net>
writes:
________________________________________________________________
Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
Only $9.95 per month!
Visit www.juno.com
Stewart, Peter
> From: Anne Gilbert [mailto:avgi...@prodigy.net]
> Sent: Thursday, 9 January 2003 16:03
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: Domesday Essex - Humfrid Aurei Testiculi
>
>
> Henry:
>
>
> "Sutliff" <ss...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:O__S9.23192$9N5.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> > This man is listed at DP:272. My Latin is somewhat rusty,
> but can his
> name
> > possibly translate to what I think it does?
>
> If you're thinking "Humphrey Golden Balls", you got it!
> Anne G
> (Now why *was* he called that, I wonder?)
"Aurei testiculi" as a personal descriptor is genitive singular, not plural
which would be unidiomatic.
Losing one or both would have been a fairly common injury in close-order
medieval battles. Replacing one with an incorruptible gold prosthesis would
have been within the bounds of feasibility, just, for a particularly vain
man who might have wanted the fact known.
I can think of a modern counterpart for this mentality.
Peter Stewart
Paul Moynagh
>"Aurei testiculi" as a personal descriptor is genitive singular, not
>plural
>which would be unidiomatic.
>
>Losing one or both would have been a fairly common injury in close-order
>medieval battles. Replacing one with an incorruptible gold prosthesis
>would
>have been within the bounds of feasibility, just, for a particularly vain
>man who might have wanted the fact known.
Wooden testicular prostheses are long established - IIRC for many centuries
inserted by Indian surgeons mainly for cosmesis of the natural condition of
'undescended testicle'. Maybe gold if one was a prince, but I have never
heard of a reference to this. Nowadays they go for plastic. To lose one or
more in battle usually would have been fatal; I have never heard of
postmortem prosthetic balls as grave goods.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Moynagh
pmoy...@argonet.co.uk
Stewart, Peter
> From: Paul Moynagh [mailto:pmoy...@argonet.co.uk]
> Sent: Friday, 10 January 2003 15:04
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: RE: Domesday Essex - Humfrid Aurei Testiculi
>
> <snip>
>
> Wooden testicular prostheses are long established - IIRC for
> many centuries inserted by Indian surgeons mainly for
> cosmesis of the natural condition of 'undescended testicle'.
> Maybe gold if one was a prince, but I have never
> heard of a reference to this. Nowadays they go for plastic.
> To lose one or more in battle usually would have been fatal;
Why so, more than any other kind of wound to other than vital organs? I
understand that crushing & severing injuries of this kind are not quite as
uncommon in motor accidents today as one might wish, but - apart from shock
& septic complications - what are the associated problems that would have
been usually fatal in the Middle Ages?
Peter Stewart
Stewart, Peter
> From: Stewart, Peter [mailto:Peter....@crsrehab.gov.au]
> Sent: Friday, 10 January 2003 10:43
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: RE: Domesday Essex - Humfrid Aurei Testiculi
>
>
> > From: Anne Gilbert [mailto:avgi...@prodigy.net]
> > Sent: Thursday, 9 January 2003 16:03
> > To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> > Subject: Re: Domesday Essex - Humfrid Aurei Testiculi
> >
> >
> > Henry:
> >
> >
> > "Sutliff" <ss...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > news:O__S9.23192$9N5.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> > > This man is listed at DP:272. My Latin is somewhat rusty,
> > but can his name possibly translate to what I think it does?
> >
> > If you're thinking "Humphrey Golden Balls", you got it!
> > Anne G
> > (Now why *was* he called that, I wonder?)
>
> singular, not plural which would be unidiomatic.
Several people have written to me off-list questioning this statement, two
of them citing individuals known by epithets in the nominative such as
"Stultus" and "Normannus".
However, the idiom in these instances is a different one, for a quite
different type of description. A person WAS a half-wit or a Norman - or
maybe both, of course - whereas the lurid Humphrey only HAD a golden
testicle. He would have made a very peculiar sight indeed if he actually WAS
two or more of these objects.
But then the Latin of medieval clerks was sometimes rather erratic....
Peter Stewart
Chris Phillips
Stewart, Peter wrote:
> Several people have written to me off-list questioning this statement, two
> of them citing individuals known by epithets in the nominative such as
> "Stultus" and "Normannus".
>
> However, the idiom in these instances is a different one, for a quite
> different type of description. A person WAS a half-wit or a Norman - or
> maybe both, of course - whereas the lurid Humphrey only HAD a golden
> testicle. He would have made a very peculiar sight indeed if he actually
WAS
> two or more of these objects.
>
> But then the Latin of medieval clerks was sometimes rather erratic....
Keats-Rohan (Domesday People, p. 272) also speaks of "Elias aureis
testiculis". I think I have also seen "de aureis testiculis", but I couldn't
swear to it.
I suppose the clerks were striving to render the vernacular nickname they
had heard, without perhaps being aware how many testicles had originally
been involved.
Chris Phillips
Apsg...@aol.com
de Aureis Testiculis: - Orescuilz.
A family of this name apparently lent its name to Sandford Orcas, Dorset,
which for a time had been held by the Orescuilz family. Whitmore indicates
there is something on de Orescuilz in the Somerset Arch. Soc. 69:38.
Paul
Stewart, Peter
> To: Stewart, Peter
> Subject: RE: Domesday Essex - Humfrid Aurei Testiculi
>
>
> * And after all, in Latin it could as easily mean 'Rock', as in Peter
> Stewart.
Or two rocks, as (mercifully) in Peter Stewart.
Peter Stewart
Cristopher Nash
Hear Hear! (Or to be precise, There There!)
Cris
--
Reedpcgen
than death, for certain grave offenses.
I wonder if it was at least better to have gold or jeweled ones, rather than
Apsg...@aol.com
reed...@aol.com writes:
> The Conqueror and others were known to order a merciful emasculation, rather
> than death, for certain grave offenses.
>
Sorry about the repeat, folks. It appears the AOL server is finally
beginning to send messages I tried posting days ago.
Paul
William Addams Reitwiesner
For those who are interested, the problem is that a couple of weeks ago AOL
started acting like a butthead about its peering arrangements with some of
the other Usenet transit sites. So most of the other Usenet transit sites
started de-peering with AOL. In practical terms, this means that messages
from AOL customers posted to the AOL Usenet servers didn't propagate out of
AOL. Usenet messages into AOL kept arriving, and email and WWW connections
were not affected, it's just that the rest of us couldn't see anything that
AOLers said on Usenet.
AOL appears to have come to its senses, and the other transit sites are now
accepting and propagating Usenet messages from AOL customers.
William Addams Reitwiesner
wr...@erols.com
Paul Moynagh
<BE9CF8DEAB7ED311B05E...@v003138e.crsrehab.gov.au>,Path: argonet.co.uk!argcf49
From: Paul Moynagh <pmoy...@argonet.co.uk>
Reply-To: Paul Moynagh <pmoy...@argonet.co.uk>
Lines: 44
Subject: RE: Domesday Essex - Humfrid Aurei Testiculi
Followup-To: soc.genealogy.medieval
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 00:03:31 GMT
Message-ID: <na.b8ef7c4bb4....@argonet.co.uk>
References: <BE9CF8DEAB7ED311B05E...@v003138e.crsrehab.gov.au>
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In article
<BE9CF8DEAB7ED311B05E...@v003138e.crsrehab.gov.au>,
Peter....@crsrehab.gov.au ("Stewart, Peter") wrote:
>
But infection WAS the killer; bleeding a significant
if lesser cause.
Dirt --> infection
+ delay in getting treated (hours at best - more often
days after a battle)
+ surgeons then knew precious little about how to prevent
infection, let alone how to treat it.
I would guess a battle wound large enough to eviscerate one's
testicle in medieval times had a circa 70% mortality. Not much
better until late 19C Lister's antiseptic surgery.
GRHa...@aol.com
pmoy...@argonet.co.uk writes:
> + surgeons then knew precious little about how to prevent
> infection, let alone how to treat it.
>
I recall reading in a fiction novel about how the surgeons would heat the
tools used on officers in a flame so that the officers wouldn't be cut by
"cold" steel. It took them quite a while to realize that the officers healed
more often than the common soldier because of the heating, which was, of
course an unintentional sterilizing of the instruments.
Gordon Hale
Stewart, Peter
>
>
<snip>
> I would guess a battle wound large enough to eviscerate one's
> testicle in medieval times had a circa 70% mortality. Not much
> better until late 19C Lister's antiseptic surgery.
And so a circa 30% survival rate by your guess - not quite an inexorable
sentence of death. I assume your estimation is for men who had _only_ this
particular injury.
Peter Stewart
Paul Moynagh
<BE9CF8DEAB7ED311B05E...@v003138e.crsrehab.gov.au>,
Peter....@crsrehab.gov.au ("Stewart, Peter") wrote:
>sentence of death. I assume your estimation is for men who had _only_
>this particular injury.
Peter, you know my 'figures' are pure guesswork, as no medieval statistics
survive, it being extremely doubtful if ever made. No, I assume many would
be associated with other injuries, many quite gruesome ones. But even a
'goolie' only amputation, given the likely delay and poor quality of
treatment would have been very hazardous to life.
To get back to the original point, I feel that a need for testicular
implants would be rare for battle injuries, as it is (a) an uncommon injury,
and (b) when it did occur, there was a high chance of not surviving.
Undescended testes, a non-traumatic naturally occurring condition, would
have been by far the commonest reason to consider an implant, gold or
otherwise. That I am aware of, before modern times only the Indians
attempted such cosmetic surgery when they implanted wooden balls.
Sutliff
came across a 18th century pedigree which shows as an ancestor, "Maude,
daughter of Helias, and sister and coheir of Richard Orescuiltz or Aureis
Testiculis Lord of Sharnecote in the county of Wilts." Clearly I need to
verify this, but it shows that descendants of this unusually named family
may exist. I don't mean to be vague as to the source, but am needing better
citations before suggesting Maude's placement as ancestor to a well known
family.
Henry Sutliff
"Sutliff" <ss...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:O__S9.23192$9N5.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> This man is listed at DP:272. My Latin is somewhat rusty, but can his
name
> possibly translate to what I think it does?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Henry Sutliff
>
>
>
Chris Phillips
Hap Sutliff wrote:
> While searching through some films at my FHC this afternoon, I
unexpectedly
> came across a 18th century pedigree which shows as an ancestor, "Maude,
> daughter of Helias, and sister and coheir of Richard Orescuiltz or Aureis
> Testiculis Lord of Sharnecote in the county of Wilts." Clearly I need to
> verify this, but it shows that descendants of this unusually named family
> may exist. I don't mean to be vague as to the source, but am needing
better
> citations before suggesting Maude's placement as ancestor to a well known
> family.
Keats-Rohan gives (Domesday Descendants, p. 1054) a Helias Orescuil, son of
Henry, who in 1166 held a fee of the abbey of Glastonbury. She adds that
Richard O. occurs in a final concord in 1199 with Matilda Orescuilz, wife of
William II fitz John of Harptree, and her sister Alicia. This sounds like
the same woman.
Chris Phillips
rita a gerrard
My name is Rita A GERRARD and I have just subsribed to this very interesting
and informative List. I live in Lancashire, England and am in no way an
expert, just a rather keen family historian since I was knee high...
I have a little information on the ORESCUILZ family from some sources I
noted about 40 years ago, hopefuly these may be of use.
From a small pamphlet published 1962 on "Sandford Orcas and the Parish
Church of St. Nicholas" the following extract gives:
"William theConqueror bestowed the estates of Brictric on Queen Matilda, who
gave Sandforda together with many other estates and lordships to HUMPHREY
CAMERARIUS, an officer of the King's Camera or Treasury. At the time of the
great Survey of Domesday in 1086, Humphrey was Lord of the Manor, which
consisted of about 800 acres and was valued at £9. 0s.0d.Humphrey's heir
was HENRY DE ORESCUILZ, member of a Norman family, who possessed lands in
Somerset, Wiltshire and Gloucestershire. In ancient documents this name is
spelled sometimes as "ORIESCUILZ", sometimes as "DORESCUILZ", ......in due
course Sandforda became Sandford-Orskuys, ........to distinguish it from
several other Manors of the same or similar............ until more recent
times when Sandford Orcas became the accepted.....
Henry was succeeded by his son HELIAS who in turn was succeeded by his son
RICHARD, [an important man in the Parish Church history who presented ROBERT
DE ELY to the living ....reign of Henry III 1216.
The Two Manors
Richard ...left no issue, his only child EVA ..died in her mother's
lifetime.....Richard's two sisters MATILDA and ALICE were his two co-heirs
and the Manor of "Sanford" was held between them undivided, together with
the right of presentation to the rectory and parish church alternately.
FREQUENT LEGAL PROCEEDINGS TOOK PLACE DURING THE NEXT THREE CENTURIES
between the holders of the two halves of the Manor on the question as to
whose turn it was to present to the vacant living
[Eventually the undivided property was, in fact, halved into two Manors,
Sandford Orcas and Jerrards]
Matilda, who inherited the "Jerrards" half, married WILLIAM FITZ JOHN of
Harptree, who presented the living to one ALBERTUS. An Assize Roll of 1242
tells us that "Albertus the parson of Sanford has obstructed a ....... path
and ... diverted a ....watercourse in the same vill..........
{Note; "The Descent of the Manor of Sandford Orcas" gives a most interesting
history of the Manor in the Proceedings of the Somersetshire Archaeological
and Natural History Society for 1923. Fourth Series Vol. IX]"
Here ends the extract..NOTE. [...] are mine and {>>>} are from the Pamphlet.
From some notes I made in the 1960's I submit the following:
Source: Notes and Queries, Somerset and Dorset, Vol IV, p. 193.
"MAUD DE ORESCULY of Sandford Orcas married WILLIAM, the son of JOHN DE
HARPTREE of Harptree in this county who passed the manor in his rights and
transmitted it to his posteriy of whom were tthe GOURNAYS, DE LA MORES and
others. Maud was also Lady of Manor of Sharncot in Wilts, her father
RICHARD succeeded to the Manor in beginning of reign of King John."
Some references I made for future research on Sandford Orcas:
Exon Domesday.
Victoria County History of Somerset.
Royal Commission on Historical Monuments, Inventory of the Historical
Monuments in Dorset, Volume I - West.
History of Somerset - Rev. John Collinson - 1791
Hope this is of interest.
PS, I do not have easy access to either Phelps or Collinson so cannot offer
anything further yet, The index of names in my two volume Hutchins does not
show it.
Sincerely
Rita A GERRARD
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------
> ______________________
rita a gerrard
Further to my earlier posting this pm, and my PS. having checked Hutchings
name Index again, found HARPTRE under Hundred of Pimpern, page 107, Vol. I,
Quote "The Rectory of Stour-Paine was anciently appropriated to the dean and
chapter of Sarum and valued 1291 at 100d. among the peculiars for commons
belonging to that chrch.
WILLIAM, son of JOHN HARPTRE, with consent of MATILDA, his wife, grants to
the nunnery of Kington, tithes of his corn. [frugum] in Stures and Sanford,
and of his carnis non emptae in the said lands. y {Ref. = Dugd. Monast.ut
supra}
ROGER DE VILLIERS grants to them, by charter, the second tithes of corn in
his demesne, lands at Stures and Sandford, and of his carnis non emptae, in
pure and perpetual alms; concerning which a plea was had between him and
the said nuns, to enjoy them in as full a manner as RICHARD, son of HELIAS
ORESCUIL, gave them by his charter." END QUOTE.
A bit more to add to the descendants?
Rita A GERRARD
Sutliff
Many thanks for responding to my brief statement. I found this identity in
the Perceval pedigree in two sources:
_Histories of Noble British Families: with biographical notices of the most
distinguished individual in each_ by Henry Drummond, London: W. Pickering,
1846
_A Genealogical History of the House of Yvery: in its different branches of
Yvery, Luvel, Perceval and Gournay_ by John Perceval, 1st Lord Egmont, James
Anderson and William Whiston, London: H. Woodfall, 1742 (caveat: FHL film
viewed is the one with the genealogical tables; I have not yet viewed the 2
volumes of the book on film)
Because Lord Egmont's pedigree contains flaws and perhaps bias and forced
placements, I did not feel entirely comfortable in posting this without
further research. I would go on to state that this shows Maude as the mother
of Thomas de Gournay (who Sanders calls Anselm which may point to an
incorrect placement of Maude and the need to resolve the Thomas/Anselm
conflict) and the suggestion is that her son married Eva, daughter of Robert
FitzRobert FitzHarding and Eva de Gournay and as such a suggested ancestor
of the Gournays of Beverstone, Gloucestershire.
An example of my reticence for posting this is that the Egmont pedigree has
Maude married to William FitzWilliam FitzJohn, son of William FitzJohn of
Harptree. At least one of your sources suggests a marriage to William
FitzJohn rather than his son, so clearly there are some identity issues to
be resolved.
Nevertheless, many thanks for your help. I hope you will become a frequent
contributor here. With your Lancashire home, there are a number of us on the
list who have considerable Lancashire and Cheshire ancestry (including me),
your knowledge and sources may make you very popular. Welcome!
Thanks again,
Hap
""rita a gerrard"" <rita_a....@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:000001c2c230$3ce2a3e0$1064fc3e@oemcomputer...
Kevan Barton
I certainly hope you are successful in plying the waters looking for
Sandford Orcas. It sounds like you are researching beached whales.
Cheers,
Kevan
Okay, it was a pun, but it's FRIDAY!