A slew of wrong names

[Johnny Brananas]

I wonder if this couple had any descendants?

[ca. Sept. 1788]

By special licence, at Clermont, the seat of the Rt. Hon. Earl Tyrconnel, Cha. Grimstead, esq. of Leatherhead, Surr. to Mifs Charlotte Walsh, you. da. of Ja. W. esq. of Redbourn.

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Gentleman_s_Magazine/l6g2AQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=grimstead+redbourne&pg=PA835&printsec=frontcover

[taf]

This marriage is also reported in two other sources catering to a similar audience:

https://books.google.com/books?id=znFkAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA503
https://books.google.com/books?id=RHYEAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA495

I note that this book
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/439000?availability=Family%20History%20Library

calls Charles the brother of Joseph Valentine Grimstead, whom a lot of online genealogies show as married to Charlotte Walsh _in September 1788_. Something screwy here.

taf

[John Higgins]

On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 11:52:07 AM UTC-7, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:

The misidentification of Charlotte Walsh's husband as Charles, rather than Joseph Valentine, Grimstead is noted in an article by Edward J. Davies in The Genealogists' Magazine , 30:241-224, which also cites the erroneous entry in the Gentleman's Magazine. The Davies article also cites an earlier article by Anthony Wagner [later Sir Anthony] in The Genealogists' Magazine, 9:7-13 which gives the (accurate) details of the marriage of Joseph Valentine Grimstead and Charlotte Walsh.

Of course Charlotte Walsh is a relatively recent ancestor (in the 5th generation, if I'm counting right) of QEII. And Charlotte's sister Mary Elizabeth was an ancestor of the Queen in the 6th generation. It was the Davies article above which first corrected the parentage of Charlotte and thus identified that the two women were sisters.

So...it seems that the social journals of London at that time (e.g., Th e Genetleman's Magazine, and others) were passing around misinformation regarding the wedding. It sounds rather like some parts of the Internet today...

[Johnny Brananas]

It's odd they got it so repeatedly wrong, especially with the marriage being on the estate of the Earl of Tyrconnel (a brother of Almeria Carpenter, mistress of the HRH Duke of Gloucester).

Are the Walsh sisters the most recent commoner sibling ancestors of the Queen? They're about as far back in time as Edward, Duke of Kent, and Adolphus of Cambridge.

[taf]

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 6:50:52 AM UTC-7, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 11:08:22 PM UTC-4, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > So...it seems that the social journals of London at that time (e.g., Th e Genetleman's
> > Magazine, and others) were passing around misinformation regarding the wedding.
> > It sounds rather like some parts of the Internet today...
>

> It's odd they got it so repeatedly wrong, . . .

Perhaps, perhaps not. As suggested above, it was common practice for such b/m/d material to be shamelessly copied from one publication to another. Alternatively, the publications themselves could have been independent, but it could be that a single correspondent submitted the information to all three publications. Either way, they could all derive from a single initial error.

taf

[Johnny Brananas]

True; American newspapers in the midwest even sometimes asked for it: "Belle Plaine papers will please copy" at the bottom of an obituary.

However, are we sure that Joseph Valentine's brother Charles wasn't the one who married Charlotte Walsh, while Jos. Valentine himself married another Charlotte ____.

[Johnny Brananas]

Here is a much more detailed account:

"Charles Grimstead, esq. of Leatherhead, Surrey, to Mifs Charlotte Walsh, youngeft daughter of John Walsh, esq. of Redburn, Herts. The Duke of York honoured the ceremony with his presence, and afterwards gave an elegant dinner to the new-married couple, the Countess of Tyrconnel, and a select party at Oatlands."

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_European_Magazine_and_London_Review/PSMoAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22charles+grimstead%22&pg=PA230&printsec=frontcover

So, that's four accounts saying it was Charles who married Mifs Charlotte Walsh. Although they appear to have gotten the bride's father's name right -- John Walsh of Redbourne.

And was it at Oatlands or Clermont?

[taf]

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 7:24:19 AM UTC-7, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:

> True; American newspapers in the midwest even sometimes asked for it: "Belle Plaine
> papers will please copy" at the bottom of an obituary.

Not just in the midwest. In the eighteenth century, before such requests were common, you can see obituaries, shipping news, and other items propagating throughout the country's newspapers like a virus, first showing up in the most relevant paper, then the nearest city, then other major cities and finally those in smaller towns. Because of the curiosity factor, one of my step-ancestors born leap-day 1760 had an item reporting 25th birthday in 1860 copied in one paper after another for months.

> However, are we sure that Joseph Valentine's brother Charles wasn't the one who married
> Charlotte Walsh, while Jos. Valentine himself married another Charlotte ____.

I would presume the identity of the spouse is made clear in the cited Gen Mag article(s), which I have not pursued. For that matter, I don't even know there WAS a Charles as opposed to it all being due to this error.

taf

[Johnny Brananas]

Oh true, I guess we're getting Charles "as a real person" from that genealogy of American families at the Family History Library.

[taf]

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 7:45:03 AM UTC-7, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:

> So, that's four accounts saying it was Charles who married Mifs Charlotte Walsh. Although
> they appear to have gotten the bride's father's name right -- John Walsh of Redbourne.

Importantly, this account and the Gentleman's Magazine one each have unique information not in the other. This is not just copying, but could still be the work of a single confused correspondent (plus typesetting errors, e.g. 'Ja.' for 'Jo.' for the father in GentMag).

> And was it at Oatlands or Clermont?

Not mutually exclusive - Clermont is reported as the marriage location, Oatlands the 'reception'. The two are about 4 miles apart, 25 minutes in a carriage with decent roads.

taf

[Johnny Brananas]

Oh yeah, that works.

The American genealogy Todd linked to apparently cites Ernest William Ainley Walker, _Skrine of Warleigh in the County of Somerset, with Pedigrees: Being Some Materials for a Genealogical History of the Family of Skrine_ (Wessex Press, 1936), p. 166, for information showing that Joseph Valentine's father was a Thomas Grimstead, born ca. 1725, died ca. 1780, who married Eleanor (? Hatch) and had two sons Joseph Valentine and Charles, with Joseph's wife's name not given (but three children mentioned) and Charles's wife listed as Charlotte Walsh of Redbourne. Walker (? Ainley Walker) was aware of the connection to Bowes-Lyon, etc..

[Johnny Brananas]

Is this reference specifically dating the marriage to 2 Sept. 1788?
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nyp.33433081671756&view=1up&seq=588&skin=2021&q1=grimstead

[Johnny Brananas]

A Joseph Valentine Grinstead was a plaintiff in "Aberdeen v. Watkin" of 1828-30.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C10858181

Maybe that was a son?

[taf]

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 8:45:47 AM UTC-7, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:

> Is this reference specifically dating the marriage to 2 Sept. 1788?

seems to be

[Johnny Brananas]

The second Joseph Valentine Grimstead died in 1834 in the Fleet prison, where he was being held for contempt of court.

"Joseph Valentine Grimstead was involved in a noted bankruptcy case from 1821; he had advanced £60,000 to a firm of annuity brokers, but his claim of £47,000 from them was refused. The case ran until mid-1826. He subsquently refused to settle the debts owing to his own creditors and he was confined in the Fleet Prison for contempt of Court, where he died in December 1834."

https://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/edwards.htm

[Johnny Brananas]

Oh no, I guess they are saying the one who died in the Fleet was actually the father, not brother, of Lady Glamis. Perhaps there's some confusion here as well.

[John Higgins]

All these references to Joseph Valentine Grimstead appear to be to a single man - not father and son. The Davies article noted above mentions his financial difficulties and the fact that he died in the Flett Prison, where he was said to be "one of the longest residents in the prison, and certainly one of its leading characters".

[John Higgins]

Yes, the Davies article does identify Charlotte Walsh's spouse as Joseph Valentine Grimstead, who is also mentioned as her spouse in the will of John Smith , cited in the same article. And the Wagner article (which I believe I've seen but can't immediately locate in my files) also notes that the St. James's Magazine and the Gentleman's Magazine both got the name of the bridegroom wrong. The Davies article also cites other sources (including a parish register) which make it clear that Joseph Valentine Grimstead was indeed the husband of Charlotte Walsh. I have no idea how the name Charles got into the picture.

[Johnny Brananas]

Okay, could be true. The last article linked to says the speculated "protector" of this early "trans" actress Eliza Edwards might be Thomas Grimstead (1803–1884), son of Joseph Valentine Grimstead. But then they note, "The argument against this interpretation, is that the letter from his father is signed "T. Grimstead", not "J. V. Grimstead" ..."

I suppose he could have signed "J. Grimstead," which was read as "T. Grimstead"?

This is giving me a headache.

[John Higgins]

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 6:50:52 AM UTC-7, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:

> Are the Walsh sisters the most recent commoner sibling ancestors of the Queen? They're about as far back in time as Edward, Duke of Kent, and Adolphus of Cambridge.

Yes, the Walsh sisters appear to be the most recent common SIBLING ancestors of the Queen.

[John Higgins]

For "common", read "commoner".

Charlotte Walsh is in the same generation of the Queen's ancestry as Edward, Duke of Kent. Adolphus, Duke of Cambridge is one generation closer to the Queen than Charlotte and Edward, while Mary Elizabeth Walsh is one generation further away from the Queen than Charlotte and Edward.

Keep in mind that the Queen's shortest descent from King George III is through her grandmother Queen Mary - not through her grandfather King George V.

[Will Johnson]

On Tuesday, October 26, 20

>
> And was it at Oatlands or Clermont?

2 Sep 1788
Esher, co Surrey (Batch M069713)

[Will Johnson]

There is a will for a Valentine Grimstead of Spital Square , Middlesex
dated 1809 in which he mentions his "nephew Joseph Valentine Grimstead"'

[Will Johnson]

https://eehe.org.uk/?p=25553


"His will drawn up at Ashtead, 16 February 1821, was supplemented with a codicil in The Fleet Prison on 8 December 1834 [SHCOL_181/19/11]. He was then close to death and is recorded to have been buried at St Bride’s, Fleet Street, on the following 22 December, aged 77 [Will proved 3 February 1835 – PROB 11/1842].

The relict, Charlotte, survived until 23 November 1848 before dying, at Redbourne, Herts, at the age of 81. Joseph Valentine Grimstead’s main claim to fame is that he was the late Queen Elizabeth, the Queen Mother’s great great grandfather."

[Kristina Hamill]

I couldn't help but find this group while researching my family, and had to join so that I could reply. It was definitely Joseph Valentine Grimstead who married Charlotte Walsh, at least from the documents and archive records I have found pertaining to both of them. He is my ancestor through his son William, and my grandmother is a Grimstead, the name Valentine is still in my family as well- as recently as it being my great aunt's middle name.

[Kristina Hamill]

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 5:01:57 PM UTC-4, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> There is a will for a Valentine Grimstead of Spital Square , Middlesex
> dated 1809 in which he mentions his "nephew Joseph Valentine Grimstead"'

In response to this, the name Valentine has been in the Grimstead family since as early as the 17th century (that is at least as early as I have found documented, it is still used in my family today), and I would have to check the documents I have, but off the top of my head I am almost certain that Thomas Grimstead was Joseph Valentine's father, Thomas being Valentine's brother, and both Thomas and Valentine were the son of a Valentine Grimstead. So that should check out with Joseph Valentine being Valentine's nephew.

[John Higgins]

It's great to hear from a descendant of Joseph Valentine Grimstead!! As you probably realize, that makes you a [rather distant) cousin of Queen Elizabeth II.

I think the current state of knowledge (in this group, at least) regarding the Grimstead family is reflected in this pedigree from the Genealogics database:
https://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00004682&tree=LEO&parentset=0&display=standard&generations=6

I know there are a number of people in this group who would be quite interested in knowing if you could provide information that could extend the Grimstead line further back, as this one one of the the first "dead ends" presently encountered in the Queen's ancestry. Any further information on the Grimstead famile (with sources, if possible) would be very welcome here.

[John Higgins]

BTW there appear to be a couple of royal descents behind Eleanor Creswick, the mother of Joseph Valentine Grimstead, but they're quite remote. The most recent royal descent from an English king appears to be from King John "Lackland" of Magna Carta fame..

[taf]

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 12:08:07 PM UTC-7, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> I have no idea how the name Charles got into the picture.

We have at least two independent sources calling him Charles, even though his name was Joseph Valentine, and I while both could independnetly get the name wrong, it is unlikely they would alight on the same alternative by sheer coincidence. I have to think this was indeed 'his name', some sort of schoolboy or family nickname of the quirkier sort arising through some atypical circumstance.

taf

[John Higgins]

I don't know that we can say that the two sources (St. James's Magazine and the Gentleman's Magazine) were necessarily "independent". They could have gotten the information (including the name "Charles") from the same source (which was simply wrong with respect to the name). We just don't know - and "some sort of schoolboy or family nickname" seems pretty speculative. But any guess as to where the name "Charles" came from is in itself speculative.

[John Higgins]

I spoke too quickly regarding the royal descents for Eleanor Creswick, the mother of Joseph Valentine Grimstead. They depend on the parentage of Petronell Chudleigh, wife of Anthony Pollard, which may be uncertain and which I've asked about in another thread today.

[taf]

On Friday, November 26, 2021 at 11:59:02 AM UTC-8, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:

> I don't know that we can say that the two sources (St. James's Magazine and the Gentleman's Magazine) were necessarily "independent".

I am not certain which one you are calling 'St. James's Magazine', but the accounts we have are:

1. Gentleman's magazine: "By special licence, at Clermont, the seat of the Rt. Hon. Earl Tyrconnel, Cha. Grimstead, esq. of Leatherhead, Surr. to Miss Charlotte Walsh, you. da. of Ja. W. of Redbourn."

2. The General Magazine: "By special licence, at Clermont, Charles Grimstead, Esq. to Miss Charlotte Walsh."

3. The Lady's Magazine: "Charles Grimstead, esq. of Leatherhead, Surrey, to Miss Charlotte Walsh of Redbourn, Herts.

4. The European Magazine: "Cha. Grimstead, esq., of Leatherhead, Surrey to Miss Charlotte Walsh, youngest daughter of John Walsh, esq. of Redburn, Herts. The Duke of York honoured the ceremony with his presence, and afterwards gave an elegant dinner to the new-married couple, the Countess of Tyrconnel, and a select party, at Oatlands.

There is nothing in #2 not in #1 except for the county where Redbourn is located, which would have been common knowledge, and #3 could come from any of the other three, but the first and the last each have significant information not found in the other, and give a different name for the bride's father. To me it requires a good bit of ad hoc speculation to come up with a scenario where these different very accounts would nonetheless be non-independent.

taf

[taf]

On Friday, November 26, 2021 at 12:06:39 PM UTC-8, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:

> I spoke too quickly regarding the royal descents for Eleanor Creswick, the mother of Joseph Valentine Grimstead. They depend on the parentage of Petronell Chudleigh, wife of Anthony Pollard, which may be uncertain and which I've asked about in another thread today.

Petronell still descends from Joan Champernowne, so if one accepts either the Richard of Cornwall or Robert of Gloucester descents claimed for her ancestry, the royal descent would be valid.

taf

[Paulo Ricardo Canedo]

He has a profile at Wikitree.

[John Higgins]

On Friday, November 26, 2021 at 5:56:12 PM UTC-8, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> He has a profile at Wikitree.

WHO???

[Paulo Ricardo Canedo]

Sorry. I didn't say as I was about to go to sleep and thought you would understand from the context. I meant Joseph Valentine Grimstead.

[John Higgins]

Here is the pedigree that you're presumably refering to:
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Grimstead-9

At least in the Grimstead line, it seems to have the usual high-quality sources that we've come to expect from Wikitree: mainly references to other online databases which are themselves unsourced (e.g., thepeerage.com. fabpedigree).

[Kristina Hamill]

Sorry! Just seeing this now as for some reason it went to my spam folder... but yes, the queen is my fourth cousin three times removed (I believe, might be iffy on the removed bit but I'm answering this from school and not able to double check), basically our great grandparents were second cousins, to put it in simpler terms. Obviously we're not chummy or anything, when I discovered the grimstead-boweslyon link only a few of my older relatives knew about it, so it's safe to say we don't get cards from lizzy at christmas lol. But I will definitely look through my research and see what I can find, I agree with it being somewhat of a dead end as even when it seems I find information the sources are super iffy. But since I'm in class, the only intriguing thing I could add right now would be some family tree's/documents CLAIMING, and I mean heavy on the claiming, I highly doubt it's credible, that Charlotte Sarah Jane Walsh is a/is a daughter of polish immigrants? That their name was originally a form of wolowski and was changed to walsh, like I said I haven't found any credible sources to support this but I thought I'd throw it out there as it's something I've been looking into the credibility of. I'll update when I'm home/have found some things to share.

[Kristina Hamill]

Sorry, brain all addled as I was trying to answer from a seminar, I meant that current Queen Elizabeth and my grandmother's great grandparents were second cousins. My branch's pedigree is as follows, Joseph Valentine Grimstead > William Grimstead (immigrated to the colonies, now newfoundland) > John Grimstead (immigrated to north-central ontario) > George Grimstead (immigrated to southern ontario) > Roy W. Grimstead > My grandmother who is still living. Her sister is the only person I know of recently to be given the name Valentine, she has passed but it was her middle name. I'm going to dig up my info on the curious case of the Walsh's right now.

[Kristina Hamill]

Alright, so the claim is that Charlotte's sister Mary (Who is the mother of Charlotte Lady Glamis' mother in law, so the Walsh's had previously married into the Bowes-Lyon's before Charlotte Grimstead did, so that may explain how she married in, as her husband was her first cousin's son) was born in Czestochowa, Częstochowa County, Silesian Voivodeship, Poland. Trying to find an actual source other than family tree's to prove this. It has Frederick Wolowski (Walsh) and Elizabeth Kinnor (Connor) listed as the parents, though seems as though Charlotte and other siblings were born in England. one sec. This is frustrating.

[Aimee Layton]

My great grandmother came here from NS and would tell stories of our ancestors. her and my great grandfather were first cousins because that is how they did it. i also have a victorian cross from Queen Victoria for Frederick Simmonds, deputy surveyor after Menzies. Anyway, it is a family tree she had for years. Hope it helps. I can only upload link not the pic!

https://www.wikitree.com/photo.php/a/a7/Simmons-15019-2.jpg

[Aimee Layton]

oh and yea they were sisters if you go to Walsh of Redbourne
https://homepages.rootsweb.com/~walsh/england.html

and the will of John Walsh
https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui-content/view/420604:5111?ssrc=pt&tid=188841216&pid=242448351807