Link in Oliver Manwaring descent from Edward III disproven
Todd A. Farmerie
briefly described a possible descent of immigrant Oliver
Manwaring (Mainwaring) from King Edward III of England, (which I
had first come across while visiting a relative at Kent State
University in 1987/88). The important links of this descent,
tracing Oliver's maternal grandmother Loveday Moyle from an
illegitimate son of Henry Holland, Duke of Exeter, appeared in a
genealogical chart published over a century ago, but the descent
seems to have escaped notice since that time.
Since that posting, I have, as time allowed, been working on this
question on both sides of the pond, and have discussed the issue
in private with several participants of this group, including
Paul Reed, David Greene, Hap Sutliff, John Steele Gordon, and
Gryphon801, all of whom I thank for lending me their ear or
monitor, as the case may be (and for respecting the confidence in
which the information was imparted). Having reached the end of
one phase of the research with some minor discoveries in Salt
Lake City a few weeks ago, I have decided to go public with my
information, which shows that the line contains a critical, and
at least for the time being, fatal inaccuracy. A discussion of
this flaw in the line is currently under editorial review, and
(it is hoped) will appear shortly in the January 2001 issue of
The American Genealogist.
Briefly, Loveday Moyle, maternal grandmother of Oliver Manwaring
was in turn maternal granddaughter of Lawrence Kendall, younger
son of Walter Kendall of Pelyn, JP for Cornwall. (Walter's
brother William Kendall was executed by Henry VIII for raising
troops with unknown intent in 1531, while making vague threats
that the King would regret marrying Anne. Curiously, the wife of
Lawrence Kendall also had an uncle attainted and sentenced to be
hanged, drawn and quartered - for sneaking out of the country as
a relic the left arm of a priest martyred for denying the
supremacy of the King). Walter Kendall was the third son of John
Kendall of Treworgy, it is said, by Joan Holland, whose father
Robert Holland was one of Henry Holland, Duke of Exeter's two
illegitimate sons killed at Towton. This Henry has two lines of
descent from Edward III, as well as a descent through Joan, Fair
Maid of Kent, to Edward I and his second wife, Margaret of France
(Oliver Mainwaring's other Edward I descents are from Eleanor of
Castile).
Unfortunately, the line is flawed in its assignment of Robert as
bastard of Henry Holland. Chronology reveals the above account
to be doubly problematic at this point. First, as Towton was
fought in 1461, while Henry was born in 1430, it is unlikely that
he would have been twice grandfather at the age of 31 (as would
have been required for Robert Holland, father of two daughters,
to have been both Henry's son and a Towton casualty). This is
not fatal to the descent, as there is no reason that Robert must
be one of the two unnamed bastards killed at Towton. The second
chronological problem is more telling, for in an 1458
transaction, Robert Holand grants stewardship of two manors to
the men who the previous owner had assigned that role prior to
his transfer of the manors to Robert and his wife Margaret.
Certainly acting as a man who had reached majority, Robert could
not be son, illegitimate or otherwise, of Henry Holland, who was
only 28 years old. Thus, this connection, with the royal
descents it implies, proves flawed, and at least one (and there
is a reason to think both) of the Edward III descents are negated
as a result.
Additional details will be found in the prospective TAG article
when it goes to press.
taf
shawn...@my-deja.com
"Todd A. Farmerie" <farm...@interfold.com> wrote:
> Briefly, Loveday Moyle, maternal grandmother of Oliver Manwaring
> was in turn maternal granddaughter of Lawrence Kendall, younger
> son of Walter Kendall of Pelyn, JP for Cornwall. (Walter's
> brother William Kendall was executed by Henry VIII for raising
> troops with unknown intent in 1531, while making vague threats
> that the King would regret marrying Anne. Curiously, the wife of
> Lawrence Kendall also had an uncle attainted and sentenced to be
> hanged, drawn and quartered - for sneaking out of the country as
> a relic the left arm of a priest martyred for denying the
> supremacy of the King). Walter Kendall was the third son of John
> Kendall of Treworgy, it is said, by Joan Holland, whose father
> Robert Holland was one of Henry Holland, Duke of Exeter's two
> illegitimate sons killed at Towton. This Henry has two lines of
> descent from Edward III, as well as a descent through Joan, Fair
> Maid of Kent, to Edward I and his second wife, Margaret of France
> (Oliver Mainwaring's other Edward I descents are from Eleanor of
> Castile).
Todd, do you know if Thomas Kendall, who died in Reading, Middlesex
County, MA, on July 22, 1681, was descended from this family?
Shawn
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> Todd, do you know if Thomas Kendall, who died in Reading, Middlesex
> County, MA, on July 22, 1681, was descended from this family?
Last I knew he had not been located in an English genealogical
context, so no, I don't know.
taf
gifford...@my-deja.com
mentioned it to Gary Boyd Roberts, Leslie Mahler,
and Douglas Richardson. It is found in Joseph
Polsue, ed., _[Lake's] Complete Parochial History
of the County of Cornwall_, 4 vols. [London: John
Camden Hotten, 1867-1872; reprint, East Ardsley,
Yorks.: EP Publishing Limited, 1974), vol. 3
(chart opposite p. 22), and vol. 4 (chart
opposite p. 1). Interesting to know that it has
been disproven.
However, the chart in vol. 4 (opposite p. 1) also
shows the following line:
1. Sir Edmund Shaa, Lord Mayor of London, 1482,
married Lora, dau. of Sir Roger Wentworth
2. [daughter] Shaa, coheir, married William
Browne, son of Sir John Browne, Lord Mayor of
London, 1480.
3. Julian Browne, married Sir John Munday, Lord
Mayor of London, 1522.
4. John Munday, married Joane, coheir of Way of
Lostwithiel.
5. Katherine Munday, married Lawrence Kendall.
6. Mary Kendall, married Richard Moyle of
Trevissick, St. Austell.
7. Loveday Moyle married Henry Ashe/Eshe/Esse
[grandparents of immigrant Oliver1 Manwaring of
Connecticut].
. . . Wonder if any royal lines could be
developed through Lora, daughter of Sir Roger
Wentworth??
John
douglasr...@hotmail.com
Assuming the chart in the Polsue book has the descent correctly stated,
the Wentworth connection should work just fine. I've been working on
the Wentworth family for the Magna Carta book. When I have a minute,
I'll check and see if this line works.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
- - - - - - - - -
In article <964554$gm6$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> However, the chart in vol. 4 (opposite p. 1) also
> shows the following line:
>
> 1. Sir Edmund Shaa, Lord Mayor of London, 1482,
> married Lora, dau. of Sir Roger Wentworth
This is wrong. The Edmund Shaa who married Lora Wentworth was
the son of a later Lord Mayor Sir John Shaa, thought to be nephew
of this Sir Edmund. The Mayor Edmund married a wife known only
as Juliana (see, for example, her ipm, and his and her wills).
Oh, and by the way, the title "Lord Mayor" is anachronistic, the
first using this form appears to have been the aforementioned
John Shaa. FWIW, this Sir Edmund Shaa is the "Mayor of London"
in Shakespeare's Richard III.
> 2. [daughter] Shaa, coheir, married William
> Browne, son of Sir John Browne, Lord Mayor of
> London, 1480.
Katherine Shaa. While the chart does not show him as such, this
William Browne was also Mayor, in (IIRC) 1514.
> 3. Julian Browne, married Sir John Munday, Lord
> Mayor of London, 1522.
>
> 4. John Munday, married Joane, coheir of Way of
> Lostwithiel.
Probably not, as his grandson John Munday is also said to have
married a 'Waye of Lostwithiel' heiress, while other pedigrees
make this John marry a daughter of ____ Man. Curiously, he does
not name his children in his will, but does name his brother
Thomas (de Munday) de Wandesworth, who in turn names nephew and
niece Lawrence and Katherine Kendall in his will. Thomas also
made a land grant to Lawrwnce and Walter Kendall, on the
condition that Lawrence should marry his niece. At the time
Thomas was Prior of Bodmin, and managed to unload all of the
church property to his family and friends just before Henry VIII
moved to take it over. Perhaps that's why the crown was still
mad ten years later when Thomas smuggled out the bones.
> 5. Katherine Munday, married Lawrence Kendall.
>
> 6. Mary Kendall, married Richard Moyle of
> Trevissick, St. Austell.
>
> 7. Loveday Moyle married Henry Ashe/Eshe/Esse
> [grandparents of immigrant Oliver1 Manwaring of
> Connecticut].
>
> . . . Wonder if any royal lines could be
> developed through Lora, daughter of Sir Roger
> Wentworth??
No.
taf
gifford...@my-deja.com
John Brandon
MRGI...@email.msn.com
Sutliff
<gifford...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:964554$gm6$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
<snipped>
> 2. [daughter] Shaa, coheir, married William
> Browne, son of Sir John Browne, Lord Mayor of
> London, 1480.
<snipped>
As pointed out in another post the wife of William Browne was Katherine
Shaa. William Browne was son of John Browne and Anne Belwood. About a year
or two ago there was some discussion of the Belwood family and how they were
probably part of the Belknap family and possible relationship of these
Brownes to the Brownes of Betchworth Castle. If my memory is correct, it was
Adrian Channing who posted some of this information. You ought to be able to
find these in the archives.
Best regards,
Henry Sutliff
Tim Powys-Lybbe
gifford...@my-deja.com wrote:
> I had also noticed this possible line, and
> mentioned it to Gary Boyd Roberts, Leslie Mahler,
> and Douglas Richardson. It is found in Joseph
> Polsue, ed., _[Lake's] Complete Parochial History
> of the County of Cornwall_, 4 vols. [London: John
> Camden Hotten, 1867-1872; reprint, East Ardsley,
> Yorks.: EP Publishing Limited, 1974), vol. 3
> (chart opposite p. 22), and vol. 4 (chart
> opposite p. 1). Interesting to know that it has
> been disproven.
>
> However, the chart in vol. 4 (opposite p. 1) also
> shows the following line:
>
> 1. Sir Edmund Shaa, Lord Mayor of London, 1482,
> married Lora, dau. of Sir Roger Wentworth
>
> 2. [daughter] Shaa, coheir, married William
> Browne, son of Sir John Browne, Lord Mayor of
> London, 1480.
>
> 3. Julian Browne, married Sir John Munday, Lord
> Mayor of London, 1522.
>
In case it might help anyone, I found this recently in "Memoir of the
Family of Poyntz" by Sir John Maclean, orig pub 1886 and re-pub 1983,
page 32:
John Shaa of Droukenfield, Chester
|
Edmund Shaa, goldsmith, Ld Mayor in 1482 (Maclean gives 1483, but other
sources agrees with the above 1482)
|
Elizabeth Shaa = William Poyntz of Ockenden, Essex
Elizabeth's brother Sir John Shaa, goldsmith, was also Ld Mayor, in
1501. John's will is reported as PCC 13 Holgrave and to mention his
brother Poyntz, so might alse mention Browne.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a patchwork of bygones: http://powys.org
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> In case it might help anyone, I found this recently in "Memoir of the
> Family of Poyntz" by Sir John Maclean, orig pub 1886 and re-pub 1983,
> page 32:
>
> John Shaa of Droukenfield, Chester
Dunkerfield, co. Lancs.
> |
> Edmund Shaa, goldsmith, Ld Mayor in 1482 (Maclean gives 1483, but other
> sources agrees with the above 1482)
The term of office was not coterminal with the calendar year. He
served 1482/3
> |
> Elizabeth Shaa = William Poyntz of Ockenden, Essex
>
> Elizabeth's brother Sir John Shaa, goldsmith, was also Ld Mayor, in
> 1501. John's will is reported as PCC 13 Holgrave and to mention his
> brother Poyntz, so might alse mention Browne.
This descebt is incorrect. The ipm of Edmund Shaa gives his heir
as son Hugh Shaa. The ipm of Hugh Sha gives his heirs as his two
sisters, Margaret Ryche and Katherine Broun, and refers to
reversion of lands to kinsman John Sha. The ipm of Julian Shaa,
widow (of Edmund) gives her heiresses as Margaret Ryche and
Katherine Broun, and calls John Shaa "cousin" of Edmund Shaa.
Since John Shaa was not son of Edmund Shaa, but instead his
apprentice and kinsman ("cousin", which term could be applied to
nephew) then John's sister was likewise not Edmund's daughter,
and is not among the heirs of Edmund's son or widow.
Of Edmund's immediate family, he was almost certainly brother of
Dr. Ralph Shaa, a cleric who preached the famous sermon calling
the "Princes in the Tower" bastards, and Richard III the rightful
King (Edmund, at the time Mayor, would benefit greatly from
Richard's succession, being knighted and becoming a member of
Richard's Privy Council). Morant stated that Mayor John was son
of John Shaa of Rochford, and this earlier John has been
provisionally placed as another brother of Edmund, making Mayor
John the nephew of Mayor Edmund.
taf
gifford...@my-deja.com
the names "Way" and "Man," I wonder if this helps clarify the problem
in any way . . .?
John C. Brandon
MRGI...@email.msn.com
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> Since there are potentially the same number of minims (pen strokes) in
> the names "Way" and "Man," I wonder if this helps clarify the problem
> in any way . . .?
perhaps, but I suspect it is simply transference of the Way
heiress from one generation to the other.
taf