3. Harald Bluetooth's Children (was: Thyra ...)
Peter E Murray
HARALD BLUETOOTH'S CHILDREN - A COMMENTARY IN LIGHT OF HIS POSSIBLE MARRIAGES
I thought it might be useful as a corollory of the discussion of the wives of king Harald Blatand (or Bluetooth), to briefly list Harald's known or claimed children and consider the evidence regarding their parentage from the sources. I discuss them below in what appears to be an approximate order of their birth.
a) HAQUINUS (HAKON), who appears only in Saxo as a son of Harald Bluetooth, was both older and more admired than his brother Svein. Saxo's praise for Haquinus and the fact that no one else mentions him as a son of Harald Blatand makes me wonder if he is really a transplanted Hakon the Good who was son of Harald Fairhair (by a Thora, not a Gerytha). Incidentally, Hakon the Good is said to have briefly conquered much of Denmark from Harald Blatand, (prob. early 950s), so he does have a Danish connection quite apart from the interesting but apparently incorrect guess by Phil Moody that Hakon's daughter Thora could be the wife of that name sometimes claimed for Harald Blatand. Hakon is often regarded as an originally purely Norwegian name, but some commentators, including I think Stewart Baldwin, have noted that the name Hankwin which appears in the Danish royal family in the early 9th century could correspond to the West Norse form Hakon. If the Hakon of Saxo was a son of Haral!
d Blatand as he says, he was probably no longer alive at the time of the baptism of his brother Suen Otto sometime between 965 and 974. One wonders if he could have been alive even at the time of Harald's reluctant acknowledgement of Suen as his son, presumably soon after 960. We may further speculate that Hakon, since he lived long enough to get an exemplary reputation, must have died an adult or near-adult. Taken together this suggests he could have been growing up within the interval between 940 and 960 or so. But such an early date for Hakon is impossible if his mother Gerytha (Gyrid/Thyra) were a daughter of the Swedish king Biorn and therefore sister of king Eric the Victorious in the latter 10th century, and still worse if she had married Harald Blatand in the time of his dealings with Styrbjorn as claimed by Saxo. My own view is that the Haquinus described by Saxo never existed except as a misplaced memory of the Norwegian king Hakon the Good.
b) SVEIN OTTO, afterwards K of Denmark as Svein Twiskegg (Forkbeard), became the acknowledged son and heir of Harald Blatand although apparently of illegitimate birth. According to Snorri (Heimskringla: The Olaf Sagas v.1 pp.12-13 Laing's transl.) referring to the time of Gold-Harald's plotting with Earl Hakon [ie ca.972-3] "King Harald is now very old, and has but one son [ie Svein], and cares little about him, as he is but the son of a concubine". According to Jomsvikinga Saga, Svein was son of Harald by Asa the Sempstress (or Saumaesa), a servant woman, and although he was Harald's only son and eventual heir, as a child he was only reluctantly acknowledged by his father. The circumstances suggest that Svein was born ca.960 consistent with the conclusions of numerous inquirers over the years.
c) THYRA/THORE, "a daughter of Harald and king Swend's sister" was betrothed against her will to Burislav king of the Wends apparently at the same time that Swend married Gunnhild "king Burislav's daughter" (Heimskringla: The Olaf Sagas v.1 pp.34-5, Laing's transl.), apparently ca.995 after Swend's return from exile abroad. Thyra married Burislav after considerable delay (ca.999 according to Laing, ibid pp.80-81) but almost immediately broke it off and married Olaf Trygvasson instead, and the resulting hostility between her and her brother Swend outlasted Olaf's death in 1000. According to the same source she had one child by Olaf, Harald, who died in infancy. Elsewhere (but not in Heimskringla) Thyra is said to have married the Swedish prince Styrbjorn who was slain probably ca.985 probably when still a young man. We may guess therefore that she was not likely born much earlier than 960 or so and was close in age to her brother Swend. Interestingly Thyra is called Tyrida an!
d alternatively Gyth in a mention of her marriage to Stirbiorno son of Olaj (Arngrimi Jonae, ed: Benediktsson, App I p.483). It would be interesting to know what Styrbjorn's Saga has to say about Thyra and any issue of this marriage if anyone on the List has access to it (I haven't had the strength to search for the source of a supposed connection, given for example in Lappenberg's chart, vol ii p.458, showing Thorgils Sprakaleg as a son of Styrbjorn and apparently this Thyra, but suspect it is not founded on much). Thyra was more probably named either after Thyra wife of Gorm the Old, than after the wife of Harald Gormsson whose name was more probably Gerytha, not Thyra. Her mother is not identified in any record I have seen but she is called a bastard daughter of Harald Gormsson somewhere in Arngrimi Jonae and therefore not a dau of Gunnhild. I think it possible, even likely, that she was born before Harald Blatand's marriage to Gunnhild.
d) HIRING/RING, is mentioned as Hiring son of king Harald Gormsson (Adam of Bremen) and as Ring by later medieval writers (eg: Ann.Lund. s.a.985 drawing probably from Adam). Adam tells us that he was slain in England by the Northumbrians sometime prior to Svein's subjugation of England (Adam of Bremen 2:xxv and 2:li in Tschan's translation) . If one takes this at face value, which is of course a risky thing to do, then this Hiring would have been active at the time of Svein's earlier campaigns in England, say in the early 990's, and would presumably have been younger than Svein and born late in his father's life. If born, say, in the 970s this would correspond to the time when Gunnhild was Harald's wife. Any sons of Gunnhild would likely have been too young to be a factor in the troubles surrounding the attempts by Svein to succeed his father in 985/6. Alternatively, Adam could have been led astray by some account of the known son of Harald Fairhair named Ring, who could con!
ceivably have campaigned in England sometime before the fall of Northumbria in 952 or 954 in support of his brother Eric. Several other "kings", some of them probably relatives, are indeed said to have perished with Eric when he was killed. But the often cited 19th century attempts to actually identify Adam's Hiring with Eric, the last king of Northumbria, are I think misguided. Hodgson (in "Northumbria") on this basis transformed the Norwegian Eric into a Dane, and suggested he was son of Harald Blatand, but since this is only a modern outgrowth of Adam's mention of Hiring, I do not include Eric in the list.
e) GUNNHILD, sister of Swend and therefore daughter of Harald Blatand, married Pallig, a Danish jarl in England. She was beheaded by Eadric in 1002 in the St Brice's day massacre instigated by the English king Ethelred (see Lappenberg ii p.200 citing W.Malm. ii. 10). Pallig had led a segment of the Danish forces against England in 1001 (ASC A: Parker Chronicle s.a.1001). One can't help suspecting she may have been daughter of Harald and his last wife Gunnhild, but there is no evidence other than her name.
f) HALFDAN, is named as a possible son of Klak-Harald (Chron. Roskilde: the chronicler, although aware of this claimed parentage, admits to being unsure of it). This refers apparently to Harald Blatand who the chronicler elsewhere tells us had the alternative nickname Klak-Harald. The otherwise unknown Halfdan is represented as a Danish king who perished with his sons and lost his realm when he was attacked in Denmark by Gorm and Harthacnut, sons of Suen. This followed immediately after the death of their father Suen soon after he had invaded England and driven out king Aldrad (Ethelred). Suen's sons then divided up Halfdan's [error for Suen's?] realm, Gorm taking Denmark and Harthacnut England. Hudson (in his book "Kings of Celtic Scotland") has suggested that Halfdan may correspond to the Halfdan who is styled "Haldenne princeps regis" when witnessing a royal grant in 1018 and "Haldan princeps" in another document of the same period in England. Hudson therefore associates!
the much disputed passage in Chron.Rosk. with the death of Sven Tuiskegg in 1014 and the subsequent activities of his sons. The problem with that is that Halfdan was supposed to have been already killed by the sons of Suen (these sons correspond presumably to the historical Harald d.1018 and Cnut the Great, there being otherwise no hint in the records of a brother named Gorm). I suppose the chronicler could have simply assumed that Halfdan perished due to the circumstances and the lack of further mention of him. Since Sven's sons being still relatively young and untested, Halfdan could have acted as Sven's viceroy in Denmark while Sven campaigned abroad, and on Sven's death relinquished control only when forced to by his returning nephews. The brief mention of Halfdan in Chron.Rosk. of course makes no mention of his mother. But if indeed Halfdan was a brother of Svein Twiskegg he must have been born late in Harald's life, after the baptism by Otto of the young Svein, when w!
e know the christian Gunnhild was Harald's wife. Halfdan could then have been born in the 970s and have had sons of fighting age in 1014.
It is interesting that all the known or suspected children of Harald Blatand seem to have been born relatively late in his life if we are to believe the claim by Adam of Bremen and later chroniclers that Harald ruled during and after the lifetime of his father for 50 years, presumably from the time of his encounter with bishop Unni in 936. Any children from an early marriage would be expected to have started to reach adulthood possibly in the mid to late 950s, but none are mentioned this early other than possibly the highly questionable Hakon in (a) above, and then only if we disregard the apparent dates of his mother. The story of Guld-Harald (in Heimskringla) suggests that Svein was still Harald Blatand's only son in 973/4. Nor are any other sons of Harald Blatand mentioned in the story of Svein's baptism, which suggests that any other sons were born later, presumably in the time of Harald's last wife Gunnhild.
Peter Murray
3/17/2002
Stewart Baldwin
wrote:
[much snipping]
>HARALD BLUETOOTH'S CHILDREN -
>A COMMENTARY IN LIGHT OF HIS POSSIBLE MARRIAGES
>a) HAQUINUS (HAKON), who appears only in Saxo as a son of Harald
>Bluetooth, was both older and more admired than his brother Svein.
>Saxo's praise for Haquinus and the fact that no one else mentions him
>as a son of Harald Blatand makes me wonder if he is really a
>transplanted Hakon the Good who was son of Harald Fairhair
That seems like a good explanation to me. In any case, it is unwsie
to trust anything Saxo says for this period.
>b) SVEIN OTTO, afterwards K of Denmark as Svein Twiskegg (Forkbeard),
>became the acknowledged son and heir of Harald Blatand although
>apparently of illegitimate birth. According to Snorri (Heimskringla:
>The Olaf Sagas v.1 pp.12-13 Laing's transl.) referring to the time of
>Gold-Harald's plotting with Earl Hakon [ie ca.972-3] "King Harald is
>now very old, and has but one son [ie Svein], and cares little about
>him, as he is but the son of a concubine".
Even if you discount the uncertain reliability of the sagas for this
period of Danish history, there are a STILL couple of problems with
this. First, the statement in Heimskringle comes in the context of an
allegedly quoted conversation by the principles, and is therefore
literary in nature (rather than strictly historical). Second, if you
look at the context, it is not at all clear that Harald Bluetooth is
the one being referred to here. In Hollander's translation, adding
the previous two sentences for the context, we get (stated by jarl
Hákon to Gold-Harald): "... I can be of great help to you in Norway.
Get possession of that kingdom first. King Harald is a very old man
now, and he has only one son, whom he has little love for and who is
illegitimate." The following events then tell about the fall of king
HARALD Graycloak of NORWAY at the hands of Gold-Harald, suggesting the
possibility that it was Harald of Norway who was being referred to.
>According to Jomsvikinga Saga, Svein was son of Harald by Asa the
>Sempstress (or Saumaesa), a servant woman, and although he was
>Harald's only son and eventual heir, as a child he was only
>reluctantly acknowledged by his father.
This event is also described in a way (Svein being revealed to his
father who supposedly did not know of his existence...) that is
clearly literary and legendary, casting severe doubt on the story.
>d) HIRING/RING...
>But the often cited 19th century attempts to actually identify Adam's
>Hiring with Eric, the last king of Northumbria, are I think misguided.
>Hodgson (in "Northumbria") on this basis transformed the Norwegian
>Eric into a Dane, and suggested he was son of Harald Blatand, but
>since this is only a modern outgrowth of Adam's mention of Hiring, I
>do not include Eric in the list.
I think that the identification of Adam's Hiring with king Erik of
Northimbria (who, in turn, is almost certainly to be identified with
Erik Bloodaxe, son of Harald Fairhair) is the most likely theory, for
a couple of reasons. First, Adam regularly uses the form "Hericus"
for the name Erik, so that a scribal slip of some sort cannot be ruled
out. Second, Adam's source is a something he refers to as the
"Gesta", apparently an English source, which could very well have been
a corrupt version of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle (which is how we know
about Erik of Northumbria). The ASC also refers to Erik as son of (an
unidentified) Harald, which explains quite easily how Adam assigned
him to Harald Bluetooth.
>f) HALFDAN, is named as a possible son of Klak-Harald (Chron.
>Roskilde: the chronicler, although aware of this claimed parentage,
>admits to being unsure of it). This refers apparently to Harald
>Blatand who the chronicler elsewhere tells us had the alternative
>nickname Klak-Harald. The otherwise unknown Halfdan is represented as
>a Danish king who perished with his sons and lost his realm when he
>was attacked in Denmark by Gorm and Harthacnut, sons of Suen. This
>followed immediately after the death of their father Suen soon after
>he had invaded England and driven out king Aldrad (Ethelred). Suen's
>sons then divided up Halfdan's [error for Suen's?] realm, Gorm taking
>Denmark and Harthacnut England. Hudson (in his book "Kings of Celtic
>Scotland") has suggested that Halfdan may correspond to the Halfdan
>who is styled "Haldenne princeps regis" when witnessing a royal grant
>in 1018 and "Haldan princeps" in another document of the same period
>in England. Hudson therefore associates the much disputed passage in
>Chron.Rosk. with the death of Sven Tuiskegg in 1014 and the subsequent
>activities of his sons. The problem with that is that Halfdan was
>supposed to have been already killed by the sons of Suen (these sons
>correspond presumably to the historical Harald d.1018 and Cnut the
>Great, there being otherwise no hint in the records of a brother named
>Gorm). I suppose the chronicler could have simply assumed that Halfdan
>perished due to the circumstances and the lack of further mention of
>him. Since Sven's sons being still relatively young and untested,
>Halfdan could have acted as Sven's viceroy in Denmark while Sven
>campaigned abroad, and on Sven's death relinquished control only when
>forced to by his returning nephews. The brief mention of Halfdan in
>Chron.Rosk. of course makes no mention of his mother. But if indeed
>Halfdan was a brother of Svein Twiskegg he must have been born late in
>Harald's life, after the baptism by Otto of the young Svein, when we
>know the christian Gunnhild was Harald's wife. Halfdan could then
>have been born in the 970s and have had sons of fighting age in 1014.
The Roskilde Chronicle is such a confused source for this period that
I see no need to take it seriously. Note, for example, the confusion
between Harald Bluetooth and Harald Klak. I suspect that Svein's
alleged sons Hardeknud and Gorm are a garbled version of Adam of
Bremen's earlier Svein, his son Hardegon (Hardeknud?) and Hardeknud's
son Gorm ("the Old"), transferred to a later period by identifying the
earlier Svein with Svein Forkbeard. The chronology is so messed up
that Halfdan could even be the Northumbrian king ruling in the late
ninth century (succeeded by a son of a certain Hardeknud according to
a legend passed on by Simeon of Durham) or perhaps his Danish
contemporary. In any case, the account in the Roskilde Chronicle is
clearly a mess.
>It is interesting that all the known or suspected children of Harald
>Blatand seem to have been born relatively late in his life if we are
>to believe the claim by Adam of Bremen and later chroniclers that
>Harald ruled during and after the lifetime of his father for 50 years,
>presumably from the time of his encounter with bishop Unni in 936. Any
>children from an early marriage would be expected to have started to
>reach adulthood possibly in the mid to late 950s, ...
As I have stated before, it seems likely (unless you want to
completely dismiss the archaeological and dendrochronologial evidence)
that Harald himself was probably only reaching adulthood about 950 or
so, making it not at all surprising (at least to me) that no child (or
alleged child) of Harald's turns up any earlier than they do. But
then, we've had THAT argument before, haven't we? :-)
Stewart Baldwin
Phil Moody
Hakon is often regarded as an originally purely Norwegian name, but some
commentators, including I think Stewart Baldwin, have noted that the name
Hankwin which appears in the Danish royal family in the early 9th century
could correspond to the West Norse form Hakon.
PLM: I initially made the same assumption, that Hankwin was the equivalent
of Hákon. I was discussing the origin of the name Hákon with an ON expert,
and I mentioned that Hankwin (brother of king Hemming, r. 810-812) was the
earliest historical Hákon I knew of and he firmly denied that Hankwin and
Hákon were the same name.
I don't as yet know what the basis is for his opinion concerning Hankwin
and Hákon, but I will in due course. However, until I learn more about it, I
can no longer make this assumption. Therefore, due to my uncertainty, I have
not considered Hankwin as the first Hákon in the Danish Royal Family, and
subsequently that honor falls on the conjectured son of Harald Gormsson,
Haquinus.
Cheers,
Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter E Murray" <murr...@sympatico.ca>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 11:49 PM
Subject: 3. Harald Bluetooth's Children (was: Thyra ...)
Phil Moody
> >b) SVEIN OTTO, afterwards K of Denmark as Svein Twiskegg (Forkbeard),
> >became the acknowledged son and heir of Harald Blatand although
> >apparently of illegitimate birth. According to Snorri (Heimskringla:
> >The Olaf Sagas v.1 pp.12-13 Laing's transl.) referring to the time of
> >Gold-Harald's plotting with Earl Hakon [ie ca.972-3] "King Harald is
> >now very old, and has but one son [ie Svein], and cares little about
> >him, as he is but the son of a concubine".
>
> Even if you discount the uncertain reliability of the sagas for this
> period of Danish history, there are a STILL couple of problems with
> this. First, the statement in Heimskringle comes in the context of an
> allegedly quoted conversation by the principles, and is therefore
> literary in nature (rather than strictly historical). Second, if you
> look at the context, it is not at all clear that Harald Bluetooth is
> the one being referred to here. In Hollander's translation, adding
> the previous two sentences for the context, we get (stated by jarl
> Hákon to Gold-Harald): "... I can be of great help to you in Norway.
> Get possession of that kingdom first. King Harald is a very old man
> now, and he has only one son, whom he has little love for and who is
> illegitimate." The following events then tell about the fall of king
> HARALD Graycloak of NORWAY at the hands of Gold-Harald, suggesting the
> possibility that it was Harald of Norway who was being referred to.
>
PLM: After considering your supposition, Stewart; I don't believe the quote
is referring to Harald Graycloak. Though Hollander's footnote of the above
quote does imply that it is referring to Harald Bluetooth, as it follows
"illegitimate" and he states "He means the later King Svein Forkbeard", this
was not the determining factor against your interpretation, in my mind. In
considering the question, I find the phrase "very old man" to be pivotal to
correctly identifying which "King Harald" the paragraph is referring to. I
don't believe "very old" is an appropriate reference to Harald Graycloak in
969-970, but it might apply to Harald Bluetooth, at this time.
Working from the 954 death of Erik Bloodaxe at the battle of Stainmore,
Snorri tells us Gunnhild took her sons to Orkney, where they stayed for an
undetermined amount of time, before going to Denmark; so I would say that
955 is the earliest date for them going abroad (Saga of Hákon the Good, ch.
5). In the same Saga, chapter 10, we find "They gave Ragnhild, Eirik's
daughter, in marriage to Arnfinn, the son of Thorfinn Hausakjúf,... and the
sons of Eirik sailed away." I would think Ragnhild was at least 14, when
Eirik's sons left for Denmark.
Chapter 10 goes on to say that "Gamli Eiriksson was somewhat older than
his brothers, but still not full-grown." I'm not quite sure what age is
appropriate here, but I think 18 would be a close approximation. The same
chapter has this to say of Harald Bluetooth, "He accepted Harald Eiriksson
as his foster son and adopted him." I get the impression that Harald
Eiriksson was 10 or 12 when this occured, because if Harald was older than
his sister Ragnhild, this would make him 15 or 16, and I see this as being
to late to make "fosterage" probable, as the Saga relates.
In chapter 19, we see that Guthorm Eiriksson was killed, and then in
chapter 26 we see Gamli Eiriksson died; which sets up the scene in chapter
29, "Harald Eiriksson was at that time head of the sons of Eirik after Gamli
had fallen." The previous quote does not take into consideration that
Guthorm predeceased Gamli, and as Guthorm died in battle and was younger
than Gamli, sometime between the years 955-960; I think it is probable that
Guthorm was older than Harald.
Working with the assumption that they sailed to Denmark in 955 and the
brief data that Snorri provides, we might have something like this:
Gamli Eiriksson born about 937, (955 - 18 = 937).
Guthorm Eiriksson born about 939, (955 - 16 = 939).
Ragnhild Eiriksdotter born about 941, (955 - 14 = 941).
Harald Eiriksson born about 943, (955 - 12 = 943).
I don't mean to imply the two year interval is accurate because I know
there are exceptions, but these birth dates are merely approximations, after
all, and I am not considering the possibility of twins:-) Using my
hypothetical timeline, Harald Eiriksson would be about 17, when he became
king in 960, and he would need the guidance of his mother Gunnhild at this
age, as the Sagas suggest. This would make Harald Graycloak under 30 when
the supposed conversation between Gold-Harald and Jarl Hákon took place, and
the term "very old" is not appropriate in this instance.
Alternatively, we could be hypercritical of the Sagas and disregard
everything it says of the sons of Eirik, and assume that Harald Eiriksson
was the eldest from birth, based on Norse naming patterns (being named after
his grandfather Harald Fairhair may suggest that he was the first born son).
If we moved Harald Eiriksson to the top of the list above, and assumed he
was born in 937, then he would be 23 when he became king in 960 and 33 when
the supposed conversation took place around 970, and still the term "very
old" is not fitting of Harald Graycloak.
Best Wishes,
Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stewart Baldwin" <sba...@mindspring.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 12:10 AM
Subject: Re: 3. Harald Bluetooth's Children (was: Thyra ...)
Peter E Murray
Re: 3. Harald Bluetooth's Children (was: Thyra ...)
Stewart Baldwin wrote, 21 Mar, 2002 1:10:
>Peter E Murray wrote, 19 Mar 2002 22:43:
>
> >According to Jomsvikinga Saga, Svein was son of Harald by Asa the
> >Sempstress (or Saumaesa), a servant woman, and although he was
> >Harald's only son and eventual heir, as a child he was only
> >reluctantly acknowledged by his father.
>
> This event is also described in a way (Svein being revealed to his
> father who supposedly did not know of his existence...) that is
> clearly literary and legendary, casting severe doubt on the story.
We need not be concerned with every little wrinkle in the storytelling, only with the evident belief, also confirmed elsewhere, that Svein was son of a concubine. Even if Harald did know of the birth and true relationsip at the outset, there almost certainly would have had to be a formal presentation of the mother and child and proof or attestation for the benefit of the court that the child was his.
>
> >d) HIRING/RING...
> >But the often cited 19th century attempts to actually identify Adam's
> >Hiring with Eric, the last king of Northumbria, are I think misguided.
> >Hodgson (in "Northumbria") on this basis transformed the Norwegian
> >Eric into a Dane, and suggested he was son of Harald Blatand, but
> >since this is only a modern outgrowth of Adam's mention of Hiring, I
> >do not include Eric in the list.
>
> I think that the identification of Adam's Hiring with king Erik of
> Northimbria (who, in turn, is almost certainly to be identified with
> Erik Bloodaxe, son of Harald Fairhair) is the most likely theory, for
> a couple of reasons. First, Adam regularly uses the form "Hericus"
> for the name Erik, so that a scribal slip of some sort cannot be ruled
> out. Second, Adam's source is a something he refers to as the
> "Gesta", apparently an English source, which could very well have been
> a corrupt version of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle (which is how we know
> about Erik of Northumbria). The ASC also refers to Erik as son of (an
> unidentified) Harald, which explains quite easily how Adam assigned
> him to Harald Bluetooth.
I will try to itemize the problems I see with your argument for identifying Adam of Bremen's Hiring with king Erik of Northumbria:
- Hericus is a perfectly acceptable form for the name Erik. Hiring is not.
- Hiring corresponds in all probablility to the Norse name Hring.
- I can see no basis for speculating that Hiring could be a corruption of
either Erik or Hericus apart from the evident desire to identify him with
the available king of Northumbria whatever his name.
- Hiring is anyway not represented by Adam as king of Northumbria.
- It is Hiring, not Erik who is assigned by Adam as son of Harald
[Bluetooth] (perhaps no less mistakenly).
- As already mentioned Erik is not the only prominent leader or even "king"
in Northumbria apparently at this time, nor was he the only one to be killed
at the same time.
- The date for Hiring's death implied by Adam, vague as it is, seems
intended to be closer to the 990s than the 950s.
- Alternatively, as I said before, Hiring could be a confusion of Hring son of Harald
Fairhair, who, whether or not he existed, appears in the sagas, but this
would not be compatible with the latter date.
So, whoever Hiring is intended to be, I don't think it was Erik. I realize there is another body of opinion, dating back to the last century, that says otherwise although not apparently having much of a following today. It smacks of wishful thinking to me.
As for Adam's source, the "Gesta Anglorum", I don't see any liklihood that
it was in any way related to the Anglo Saxon Chronicle, judging from the few
specific items that we know from Adam were taken from it. I have no doubt
that others besides Adam of Bremen borrowed from the same source -
Florentius consulted a somewhat similarly named document in the 13th
century, and one wonders also about Simeon of Durham. Simeon (or whoever
really compiled the works attributed to him) pulled together material from
multiple sources. Some of them were more historical
and some more legendary in nature, but all were probably fragmentary or
at least very incomplete in what they covered. I rather suspect that the
lost "Gesta Anglorum" was similarly discontinuous as a history or else
various chroniclers including Adam would have gotten a more coherent
sequence of events out of it. I too would like to know more the possible lost
sources used by these chroniclers.
Peter Murray
3/24/02
Peter E Murray
Re: 3. Harald Bluetooth's Children (was: Thyra ...)
Stewart Baldwin wrote, 21 Mar, 2002 1:10:
>Peter E Murray wrote, 19 Mar 2002 22:43:
>
We do not know if there was confusion in Chron. Rosk. between Harald Bluetooth and Harald Klak. "Klak" seems to have been a stock epithet applied to different Harolds in different periods. Harald Bluetooth/Klak had a prominent daughter Thyra. Jarl Harald Klak had a prominent daughter Thyra. How do we know that the "Klak" in the name of the former Harald was based on the latter and not the other way round? Or the epithet "Klak" could have been used repeatedly in this period. Some epithets have occurred more than once associated with a specific name (eg, Harald Klak; Bjorn Jernsida; Horda-Knut). Others have been used more than once without being attached to the same name (eg, Osulf Cracabein; Olaf Craccaben). Regardless of whether some of these were real or purely legendary people, the early writers saw nothing out of the ordinary in re-using famous epithets, although re-using certain of them I expect would have been seen as presumptious so we don't see it (eg, Lothbrok). Othe!
rs, including "Bluetooth" are too specific to a characteristic of an individual to be used again.
> I suspect that Svein's
> alleged sons Hardeknud and Gorm are a garbled version of Adam of
> Bremen's earlier Svein, his son Hardegon (Hardeknud?) and Hardeknud's
> son Gorm ("the Old"), transferred to a later period by identifying the
> earlier Svein with Svein Forkbeard. The chronology is so messed up
> that Halfdan could even be the Northumbrian king ruling in the late
> ninth century (succeeded by a son of a certain Hardeknud according to
> a legend passed on by Simeon of Durham) or perhaps his Danish
> contemporary. In any case, the account in the Roskilde Chronicle is
> clearly a mess.
If Hudson's theory is correct, then the author of Chron. Roskilde simply gave two different reports of the invasion of England by a successor of Harald named Svein, a natural thing to do if he got them from two different sources without knowing it was the same event. But if they are not the same then it is certainly a remarkable coincidence of names. Legends of an earlier Svein Longfoot plus the mention by Adam of an earlier Svein father of Hardegon could easily have contributed to the confusion. When combined with what Chron.Rosk. says about Halfdan's possible parentage, the possibility that he could be a son of Harald Bluetooth is evident. The other common interpretations of the Chron. Rosk. item I didn't mention because they have no relevance to the family of Harald Bluetooth and there is no consensus on any of the possibilities, nevertheless it might have been better to mention that the alternative views exist, as I have done in the past.
It is indeed possible, as you say, that Svein father of Hardecnut and Gorm in Chron. Rosk. could be the same as the Svein father of Hardegon (Harthacnut in another version) in Adam of Bremen, and I expect this is still the most frequent suggestion despite the difficulties of identifying a suitable Halfdan. That this earlier Svein, like Svein Forkbeard, invaded England, drove out a king Ethelred and immediately afterwards died seems a bit much of a coincidence, although it is, I think, actually possible (albeit just barely - I won't go into that here) within the constraints of the data we have. In that case the invasion of Denmark by Svein's sons in the Chron.Rosk. would be a reflection of the invasion by Hardegon son of Svein in Adam of Bremen. But it could not in my opinion be a direct borrowing, garbled or otherwise. Comparison of the information in the two sources rules that out, even though the chronicler would have been aware of Adam's work. He had additional informatio!
n.
At the moment, I think Hudson's theory is the better bet. It is reasonably compatible with the known events immediately surrounding the invasion of England by Svein Forkbeard, and although we still must assume some chronicler error, this scenario does not seem to require as much hypothesizing and chronological gymnastics as I find are required to square it with Adam's mention of an earlier Svein.
> >It is interesting that all the known or suspected children of Harald
> >Blatand seem to have been born relatively late in his life if we are
> >to believe the claim by Adam of Bremen and later chroniclers that
> >Harald ruled during and after the lifetime of his father for 50 years,
> >presumably from the time of his encounter with bishop Unni in 936. Any
> >children from an early marriage would be expected to have started to
> >reach adulthood possibly in the mid to late 950s, ...
>
> As I have stated before, it seems likely (unless you want to
> completely dismiss the archaeological and dendrochronologial evidence)
> that Harald himself was probably only reaching adulthood about 950 or
> so, making it not at all surprising (at least to me) that no child (or
> alleged child) of Harald's turns up any earlier than they do. But
> then, we've had THAT argument before, haven't we? :-)
>
> Stewart Baldwin
What we had was a pretty good discussion I think, not an argument. To me this is an important distinction so others will not be afraid to look at the evidence with a fresh mind and not be inhibited from floating their own ideas in trying to make sense of it all.
Your preferred theory of a late Harald (and late Gorm) has always been a possibility, and an attractive one for the reason you state. The reason it remains very much the minority opinion, despite being examined by probably everyone who has studied this period, is that it is hard to reconcile with other evidence that historians are reluctant to discount. This includes most notably but not exclusively the testimony of Adam of Bremen whose account identifies important involvement by Harald Gorm's son in the Danish discussions with Bishop Unni as early as 935/6 with an apparent effect on Danish policy toward the church.
The archaeological finds at Jelling provided a wonderful opportunity to take a fresh look at the question of Gorm and Harald's dates, both in terms of the dendochronological date, 958/9, determined for the burial chamber in the North Mound, and the intriguing skeleton found under the adjacent early church which was at first thought to have been removed from the mound. The date of the church burial can only be inferred from the stylistic consideration of the meager finds associated with it and from the estimated date of the church. The interpretation of the archaeological evidence for our purpose all hinges on questions that have only hypothetical answers:
1.. Was it Gorm, Harald Bluetooth's father, who was buried in the North Mound?
2.. Is the skeleton buried under the church that of Gorm?
3.. Was the skeleton ever originally buried in the North Mound at all?
The analyses and opinion based only on the archaeology (all based on Harold Anderson's reassessment of the archaeological evidence which stingingly challenged the conclusions in Krogh's preliminary report) that I have seen so far seem to suggest:
1.. Plausibly yes.
2.. Probably no.
3.. Probably no.
Our own discussion was valuable because we examined the consequences of accepting or rejecting the identification of the skeleton for the interpretation of the documentary sources. But it is evident from your remarks that we have very different takes on what can be concluded from the discussion, and I wonder if it all really just boils down to your having a very different gut feel about the answers to the above three questions. Are you suggesting a provisional yes to all three, and, if so, I am still curious why are you so convinced?
It seemed to me that our previous discussion had quite clearly established that for the skeleton in the church to have been Gorm's (Krogh's original suggestion subsequently questioned by Anderson), it would require a young Harold of no more than 8 years of age (at the upper extreme) to have had a discussion of state with bishop Unni in 936. In that calculation you limited the evidence considered to the "historical" minimum. This was a useful exercise. I instead took a broader look at the chronology of Gorm and Harald implied by the same evidence, but considering also what the legendary sources had to say since these comprise the bulk of our total evidence. This showed that both Gorm and his son Harald were consistently regarded as born too early to be compatible with an identification of Gorm as the skeleton in the church at Jelling. Those who are interested and have not seen the discussion can find it in the archives and draw their own conclusions (narrow the Google groups !
search using keywords such as: Gorm skeleton Unni).
On the question of the possible age of Harald Bluetooth when he had children, and the possible birthdates of him and his father Gorm, I hope readers do not assume that the possibilities that you and I have been discussing are the only ones. What if there were BOTH an early Gorm and Harald and a later Gorm and Harald? One of the issues we are struggling with is that there are interesting duplications of names in various medieval sources for which it is hard to determine whether they were originally based on the same or separate individuals. The chronological confusion you mention in the Roskilde Chronicle (which is really our difficulty applying acceptable dates where the chronicler has none) stems from chronicler's inclusion of an extra Harald and Svein before the time of Harald Bluetooth and Svein Forkbeard. Inquirers in both medieval and modern times have wondered if they are separate individuals or not. Kristian Andersen Nyrup in a previous Gen-Medieval discussion drew ou!
r attention also most interestingly to a Harald and son Svein in the account of William of Jumieges in a context corresponding to ca.945, and constructed a theory of his own around it. While these appeared to us very much like a transplanted Harald Bluetooth and Svein Forkbeard, inserted here because a king of Denmark named Harald was stated by Dudo to have been active at this precise time, it is a reminder that we really don't know for sure that there were not two Gorms, two Haralds, and/or two Sveins. The confusion of the chroniclers was that of intelligent men trying hard to make sense of difficult and often contradictory information, from sources that may no longer exist today, without the benefit of a well established chronological framework. We often have little else to go on, so their efforts are worthy of an open-minded attempt on our part to try to explain what they have produced.
Peter Murray
3/24/02
Peter E Murray
reinterpretation of this passage I had quoted in Heimskringla is not correct
given the context. I also think the estimated ages that Phil gives for
Harald Grafeld and some of his siblings are also very close to correct
showing they were not "very old", and the passage does refer to Harald
Bluetooth after all.
See the bottom of this message for some further comments of my own (PEM)
regarding the context of the passage we are discussing.
Phil Moody wrote, March 24 2002 12:30 PM
>
> Stewart Baldwin wrote, March 21, 2002 1:10 AM:
>
>>Peter E Murray wrote, 19 Mar 2002 22:43
PEM COMMENT:
I too cannot agree that either the text or context of Heimskringla could
possibly be referring to Harald Grafeld instead of Harald Bluetooth in the
passage mentioned by Stewart Baldwin. The passage should be read in terms of
the following context:
- Harald Grafeld was not old. There is every reason to think he was a child
on the death of his father in 852/4 and that he didn't come of age for
several years after that, so presumably born ca.940-945. The events we are
talking about were most probably in 973/4.
- Harald Bluetooth was considered old at this time, both in Heimskringla and
other saga sources.
- The whole story about Gold-Harald is about his ambitions for the kingdom
of Denmark. Elsewhere it is stated that many considered that Gold-Harald had
a good chance to succeed Harald Bluetooth.
- The obvious implication of the passage you quoted is that Gold-Harold
needed to wait to get Denmark.
- Harald Bluetooth's lack of support for his own son [Svein] is mentioned
solely to show that Gold-Harald could still reasonably hope to succeed
Harald Bluetooth in Denmark eventually.
- Hakon and Gold-Harald, in trying to control Norway, would have been
ostensibly doing so in support of Harald Bluetooth's interests there and not
in opposition, while strengthening Gold-Harald's hand in eventually claiming
the succession.
- Hakon of course had ruthless self interest in mind and exploited the
situation to eliminate both Harald Grafeld and Gold-Harald and get Norway
for himself, effectively reducing dependence on Harald Bluetooth at the same
time.
- The story simply doesn't fit together any other way
Peter Murray
3/24/02