Lothar I's descendants
Merilyn Pedrick
I have two descents which appear to be the same family, but in a different
order. Would you be able to help me sort it out please?
1. Lothar I, Holy Roman Emperor, born 795, died 855, married Irmgarde de
Tours, died 851.
2. Ermengarde, married Rainier au Long-Cou.
3. Gislebert, married Unknown.
4. Alberade, married Renaud de Roucy.
5. Gilbert de Roucy, died 990, married Unknown.
6. Yvette de Roucy married Manassas III de Rethel.
The second one is:
1. Lothar I, Holy Roman Emperor etc.
2. Ermengarde (Heletrude) of Lorraine, born about 832 married Giselbert
II, Count of Darnau.
3. Regnier I, Count of Hainault, born 850, died 915/916, married Hersent
of France.
4. Giselbert, Duke of Lorraine, born abt 880, died 939, married Gerberga
of Saxony, born abt 914, died 984.
5. Alberada of Lorraine, died abt 935, married Renaud, Count of Reims and
Roucy, died 972/973.
6. Giselbert, Count of Roucy married Unknown.
Presumably, in generation 6 Yvette de Roucy and Giselbert Count of Roucy are
brother and sister, but my brain has become so mashed I can't think at the
moment!
Best wishes
Merilyn Pedrick
Mylor, South Australia
Peter Stewart
Merilyn Pedrick wrote:
> Dear List
> I have two descents which appear to be the same family, but in a different
> order. Would you be able to help me sort it out please?
>
> 1. Lothar I, Holy Roman Emperor, born 795, died 855, married Irmgarde de
> Tours, died 851.
>
> 2. Ermengarde, married Rainier au Long-Cou.
This is wrong - Lothaire I's daughter married Giselbert, count in the
Maasgau & Darnau, and was the mother, not wife, of Reginar Long-neck,
count in the Hennegau (Hainaut). Your second line is closer to reality,
so I will comment further below.
> 3. Gislebert, married Unknown.
>
> 4. Alberade, married Renaud de Roucy.
>
> 5. Gilbert de Roucy, died 990, married Unknown.
>
> 6. Yvette de Roucy married Manassas III de Rethel.
>
> The second one is:
>
> 1. Lothar I, Holy Roman Emperor etc.
>
> 2. Ermengarde (Heletrude) of Lorraine, born about 832 married Giselbert
> II, Count of Darnau.
I don't know why he should be called "Giselbert II, Count of Darnau",
but this is at least the right husband. Emperor Lothaire I's daughter
_may_ have been named Ermengarde after her mother, but this is not known.
>
> 3. Regnier I, Count of Hainault, born 850, died 915/916, married Hersent
> of France.
Reginar I's wife, mother of his son below, was named Alberada and her
family is unkown. He _may_ have married later Ermentrude, daughter of
Louis II the Stammerer, king of the West Franks, but this is speculative
and based on an attempt to explain the relationships of Cunegundis, wife
of Count Wigeric.
> 4. Giselbert, Duke of Lorraine, born abt 880, died 939, married Gerberga
> of Saxony, born abt 914, died 984.
>
> 5. Alberada of Lorraine, died abt 935, married Renaud, Count of Reims and
> Roucy, died 972/973.
This marriage is not certain, but generally accepted. Renaud died in 967.
> 6. Giselbert, Count of Roucy married Unknown.
That's right - Jean Noël Mathieu has speculated that his wife was from
the comital family of Poitou, trying to explain the name Ebles of their
presumed son, identified as the succeeding count of Roucy who became
archbishop of Rheims in 1021. But this is not firm by any means.
> Presumably, in generation 6 Yvette de Roucy and Giselbert Count of Roucy are
> brother and sister, but my brain has become so mashed I can't think at the
> moment!
That's a good way to describe the Roucy genealogy at this time, mashed
beyond thinking. However, Ivetta may have been the daughter rather than
sister of Giselbert.
Peter Stewart
Chris Phillips
> > Presumably, in generation 6 Yvette de Roucy and Giselbert Count of Roucy
are
> > brother and sister, but my brain has become so mashed I can't think at
the
> > moment!
>
> That's a good way to describe the Roucy genealogy at this time, mashed
> beyond thinking. However, Ivetta may have been the daughter rather than
> sister of Giselbert.
Coincidentally I've just stumbled across a note in Complete Peerage about
the Ivette/Juette/Judith question that was discussed previously.
Appropriately, it comes from the article on Scrope of Masham [vol. 11, p
560, note k]:
"With regard to the name Ivette, or Juette, the question of the true form
has been discussed, ante, vol. iii, p. 603; also by Prof. Stenton, Northants
Rec. Soc., vol. iv, p. 45, and by Mr. Charles Johnson, Antiquaries' Journal,
vol. xi, p. 180 (ex inform. C. T. Clay). In a panegyric on the Countess
Judith, printed in Michel, Chroniques Anglo-Normandes, vol. ii, pp. 123-31,
the author writes of her as 'Juetta.'"
(Vol. iii, p. 603 is part of the appendix on medieval names, and occurs as
an example of the difficulty of distinguishing 'u' and 'n' - it says it is
impossible to say whether it should be read "Ivette" or "Juette". It adds
that a ships name "la Jouette" may give a clue, pointng towards the latter,
but the casts some doubt on this by wondering whether it should really be
"la Jonette" - the equivalent of little Joan or Janet.)
Chris Phillips
Merilyn Pedrick
Dear List
With the kind help of Peter Stewart I can now feel confident that at least
the first of these lines is correct. Having two lines of descent from
Lothar I, I found myself in a state of confusion when I bumped in the first
line as I was transcribing the second (if you know what I mean). It seems
that one needs to remember all the names not to be confused!
Anyway, here are the two (split) lines for 6 generations from Lothar.
1. Lothar I, Holy Roman Emperor 795-855 married Irmgard de Tours.
2. Ermengarde born about 832 married Giselbert 830-863.
3. Regnier I, Count of Hainault about 850-915 married Alberada.
4. Giselbert, Duke of Lorraine married Gerberga of Saxony.
5. Alberada of Lorraine, died about 935, married Renaud, Comte de Roucy
about 900-967.
6. Giselbert Comte de Roucy married Unknown.
Their children were probably Yvette (various spellings) who married Manassas
III de Rethel, and Ebels I, Count of Reims and Roucy who married Beatrix
Countess of Hainault.
The second line goes like this:
1. Lothar
2. Lothar II, King of Lorraine married Waldrada in 862.
3. Gisela of Lorraine married Godefrid in 882.
4. Reginhild von Friesland married Deitrich, Count von Ringelheim in 900.
5. Mechtilde (Matilda) von Ringelheim married Heinrich I "The Fowler" in
909. No, that can't be right if her parents married in 900.
6. Gerberga of Saxony who married Louis IV "d'Outremem" and Giselbert,
Duke of Lorraine who died 939.
Oh dear here's another split.
3a Bertha de Lorraine, another daughter of Lothar II married Theotbald,
Count of Arles.
4a. Boso of Arles, Markgraf of Tuscany 855-936 married Willa.
5a. Willa of Tuscany died after 966 married Berengar II King of Italy
900-966.
6a. Konrad, Comte de Ventimiglia died after 1001, married Ischilde.
Am I getting there?
Best wishes
Merilyn Pedrick
Mylor, South Australia
-------Original Message-------
3. Gislebert, married Unknown.
The second one is:
.
Todd A. Farmerie
> Dear List
> With the kind help of Peter Stewart I can now feel confident that at least
> the first of these lines is correct. Having two lines of descent from
> Lothar I, I found myself in a state of confusion when I bumped in the first
> line as I was transcribing the second (if you know what I mean). It seems
> that one needs to remember all the names not to be confused!
> Anyway, here are the two (split) lines for 6 generations from Lothar.
>
> 1. Lothar I, Holy Roman Emperor 795-855 married Irmgard de Tours.
>
> 2. Ermengarde born about 832 married Giselbert 830-863.
>
> 3. Regnier I, Count of Hainault about 850-915 married Alberada.
>
> 4. Giselbert, Duke of Lorraine married Gerberga of Saxony.
>
> 5. Alberada of Lorraine, died about 935, married Renaud, Comte de Roucy
> about 900-967.
>
> 6. Giselbert Comte de Roucy married Unknown.
>
> Their children were probably Yvette (various spellings) who married Manassas
> III de Rethel, and Ebels I, Count of Reims and Roucy who married Beatrix
> Countess of Hainault.
[I will address this later, after I dig around a bit.]
> The second line goes like this:
>
> 1. Lothar
>
> 2. Lothar II, King of Lorraine married Waldrada in 862.
>
> 3. Gisela of Lorraine married Godefrid in 882.
>
> 4. Reginhild von Friesland married Deitrich, Count von Ringelheim in 900.
>
> 5. Mechtilde (Matilda) von Ringelheim married Heinrich I "The Fowler" in
> 909. No, that can't be right if her parents married in 900.
>
> 6. Gerberga of Saxony who married Louis IV "d'Outremem" and Giselbert,
> Duke of Lorraine who died 939.
The marriage of a daughter of Lothar to a viking Godefrid is well
documented. Who, exactly, this Godefrid was is not. He is sometimes
identified with a viking Godefrid of Frisia, but this is far from
certain. Likewise, Deitrich marriage a Frisian wife, but there were
both prominent native and viking families holding sway there, and
different authors have identified Reginhild as a daughter of either.
Even if she was daughter of Godefrid of Frisia, it would not be a given
that this was the same Godefrid who married Lothar's daughter, nor, even
were this the case, whether she were daughter of him by Gisela. Thus
this lane fails. However, there are numerous lines through Gisela's
sister - the Counts of Arles and Kings of Italy.
taf
Peter Stewart
> Merilyn Pedrick wrote:
<snip>
> > The second line goes like this:
> >
> > 1. Lothar
> >
> > 2. Lothar II, King of Lorraine married Waldrada in 862.
> >
> > 3. Gisela of Lorraine married Godefrid in 882.
> >
> > 4. Reginhild von Friesland married Deitrich, Count von Ringelheim in 900.
> >
> > 5. Mechtilde (Matilda) von Ringelheim married Heinrich I "The Fowler" in
> > 909. No, that can't be right if her parents married in 900.
> >
> > 6. Gerberga of Saxony who married Louis IV "d'Outremem" and Giselbert,
> > Duke of Lorraine who died 939.
>
> The marriage of a daughter of Lothar to a viking Godefrid is well
> documented. Who, exactly, this Godefrid was is not. He is sometimes
> identified with a viking Godefrid of Frisia, but this is far from
> certain. Likewise, Deitrich marriage a Frisian wife, but there were
> both prominent native and viking families holding sway there, and
> different authors have identified Reginhild as a daughter of either.
> Even if she was daughter of Godefrid of Frisia, it would not be a given
> that this was the same Godefrid who married Lothar's daughter, nor, even
> were this the case, whether she were daughter of him by Gisela. Thus
> this lane fails. However, there are numerous lines through Gisela's
> sister - the Counts of Arles and Kings of Italy.
Regino called Gisela's husband "rex Godefridus Nordmannorum"
(Godefrid, king of the Normans), while the annalist of St Vaast
described him as "Danus" (a Dane - meaning the same Viking origin, not
necessarily from the bounds of modern Denmark).
The marriage to Gisela was brief: under 882 Regnio records Godefrid's
conversion to Christianity and the marriage, while the annals of St
Vaast state: "Godefridus vero rex...cui imperator regnum Fresonem,
quod olim Roricus Danus tenuerat, dedit. Coniugemque ei dedit Gislam
filiam Hlotharii regis Nortmannosque e suo regno abire fecit" (trans:
King Godefrid...to whom the emperor gave Frisia, which formerly Roric
the Dane had held, along with Gisela, King Lothar's daughter, as wife,
and caused the Normans to depart from his kingdom).
Regino recorded his killing in 884, but this seems to have taken place
in 885 as noted in the St Vaast annals. His widow became abbess of
Nivelles.
Her mother Waldrada was married to Lothar II, and crowned as his queen
in 862, but their union was famously bigamous. She had been his
mistress for years, during his marriage to Teutburgis whom Lothar
repudiated. However, he was eventually forced to reaffirm the
canonical marriage, and his four children by Waldrada were considered
illegitimate (the only son Hugo, duke of Alsace, did not succeed
Lothar and was later blinded and claustrated). Only one of them had
descendants, Berta (died 8 March 925) who had offspring by two
husbands - the Bosonid Teutbald, count of Arles & Vienne and Adalbero
II the Rich, margrave of Tuscany & count of Canossa.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
> Dear List
> With the kind help of Peter Stewart I can now feel confident that at least
> the first of these lines is correct. Having two lines of descent from
> Lothar I, I found myself in a state of confusion when I bumped in the first
> line as I was transcribing the second (if you know what I mean). It seems
> that one needs to remember all the names not to be confused!
> Anyway, here are the two (split) lines for 6 generations from Lothar.
>
> 1. Lothar I, Holy Roman Emperor 795-855 married Irmgard de Tours.
>
> 2. Ermengarde born about 832 married Giselbert 830-863.
>
> 3. Regnier I, Count of Hainault about 850-915 married Alberada.
>
> 4. Giselbert, Duke of Lorraine married Gerberga of Saxony.
>
> 5. Alberada of Lorraine, died about 935, married Renaud, Comte de Roucy
> about 900-967.
>
> 6. Giselbert Comte de Roucy married Unknown.
>
> Their children were probably Yvette (various spellings) who married Manassas
> III de Rethel, and Ebels I, Count of Reims and Roucy who married Beatrix
> Countess of Hainault.
I was wrong before in stating that Jean-Noėl Mathieu had conjectured a
Poitevin mother for Ebles I, count of Roucy - this was actually the
speculation of Pčre Anselme, while Mathieu went further and suggested
that Ebles I was actually son of Ebles of Poitou (brother of Guillem V
le Grand, duke of Aquitaine) and a possible daughter of Aubri II,
count of Mācon by his wife Ermentrude (who _may_ have been a daughter
of the viking Ragenold and sister of Giselbert, count of Roucy).
The genealogy written at Foigny in the early 1160s claimed that Ebles
of Roucy had a brother "Lebaldus de Malla" (Letald, seigneur of Marle)
and a sister "Iveta comitissa de Roitest" (Iuetta or Judith, countess
of Rethel). This is problematic, for reasons that can be found in the
archive.
Peter Stewart