Early Counts of Castile
sk...@ix.netcom.com
have G.F. as "of Burgos" and am interested in tracing the early counts
of Castile (I assume F.G. was the last before the "kingdom" became
autonomous).
Thanks all
PS: I thought I posted a similar inquiry last week, but never saw in
in the NG. I apoligize if this is a re-do.
Bryant Smith
Austin, Texas
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> I have Fernan Gonzalez, and Gonzalo Fernandez as his father, but I
> have G.F. as "of Burgos" and am interested in tracing the early counts
> of Castile (I assume F.G. was the last before the "kingdom" became
> autonomous).
Well, the first thing you should know is that the County of Castile (in
fact, all Counties in Leon) was not hereditary prior to the time of
Fernando Gonzalez. Thus there were a succession of early counts drawn
from at least 4 different families. As to the "of Burgos" assignment,
this is arbitrary. It would seem that Gonzalo Fernandez (who married
Muniadomna Ramirez, granddaughter of King Alfonso III) was son of a
Count Fernando Gonzalez (not Count of Castile, just Count), and his wife
Gutina, who was a member of the family of Judge Nuno Rasura. This is a
modification of an earlier theory (in retrospect not well supported)
which made the father Fernando Nunez.
taf
sk...@ix.netcom.com
However in an earlier post, concerning (as I recall) the Munio/Muñoz
Nuño/Nuñez nomenclature, you had mentioned an old line
ot Nuño Muñoz - Munio Nuñez ... Counts of Castile, and I have no such
progression in my Castilian data, which is part of why I asked about
the early counts.
John Yohalem
John Yohalem
ench...@herodotus.com
John.Y...@Metopera.org
"What this country needs is a good five-cent reverie" -- Paul Mellon
sk...@ix.netcom.com wrote in message
<36c2e663...@news.supernews.com>...
>I have Fernan Gonzalez, and Gonzalo Fernandez as his father, but I
>have G.F. as "of Burgos" and am interested in tracing the early counts
>of Castile (I assume F.G. was the last before the "kingdom" became
>autonomous).
What is interesting is how a county got promoted to a kingdom -- was it
because the province was autonomous (and what did THAT mean?) or was it
because someone presumed to have the right to call himself a king became the
ruler of it?
Castille, in the person of its last Countess, Muniamayor, became a realm of
her husband, Sancho the Great, who was already King of Navarre and (through
an heiress in his ancestry) Count of Aragon. His eldest son, Garcia,
received Navarre (the booby prize, but no one realized that then). The
second son, Fernando, who had been given his maternal grandfather's name,
also got the maternal territory of Castille, of which Sancho and he are
accounted the first kings. But is that because Castille got promoted or
because Sancho was already a king anyway? Further, Fernando married Sancha
heiress of Leon, and after killing her brother, Vermudo III, took over that
kingdom (which included Oporto, Galicia and Asturias). He was then king of
Leon undoubtedly, to which is sometimes afixed "Castille". From this time on
Castille is a kingdom. A younger brother, Gonzalo, recieved Sobrarbe and
Ribagorza, also Counties, and never called himself king, and a half-brother,
Ramiro, a bastard, got the county of Aragon. He slew Gonzalo (there is a LOT
of fratricide in the Iberian Christian states in the 11th and 12th
centuries) and erected his tiny state (it was entirely Pyrennean then -- it
did not include, as Aragon now does, Huescar or Zaragoza) into a kingdom.
Apparently, this was not challenged. Was this because he was such an awesome
personality, or because he was the son of a king?
Sancho the Great reigned in Navarre 1100-1135, for those who are curious.
Fernando gave the title of king to all three of his sons, and split his
considerable holdings among them. Fratricide and so forth fixed that, and by
1072, the ablest of the three, Alfonso VI (the numeral comes from Leon,
where his mother's father had been Alfonso V), had united the states, rid
himself of brothers, and quarreled with El Cid. His younger son-in-law,
Henry of Burgundy, gradually detached Oporto from its allegiance, but it
took papal recognition to absolve Affonso Henriquez, his son, from being
part of Leon-Castilla or subject to his cousin, Alfonso VII, "Emperor of
Spain" (as he called himself after acquiring Toledo, the ancient Vizigothic
capital).
No one at any time accorded the Count of Barcelona the title of king, though
his state was rather more powerful than Navarre or Aragon. Is this because
Catalonia was still legally part of France? Certainly, the Catalans seem to
have taken their Spanish ties very lightly, preferring to dabble in Provence
(which they also ruled for some time) until the counties were split at the
death of Alfonso the Chaste leaving, conveniently, two sons. Alfonso was the
first "King-Count", so called not because he was top Count among the many in
the neighborhood but because, through his mother, he was also King of
Aragon....
And so on.
Jean Coeur de Lapin
Todd A. Farmerie
1. Rodrigo, first Count 852-873, was called "brother" of Ramiro I, King
of Leon. The meaning of this was probably more like kinsman, and
numerous explanations for this relationship have been proposed,
including that he was actually the brother, that he was brother of
Ramiro's second wife Paterna, who is known to have been Castilian, or
that Rodrigo married Ramiro's daughter.
2. Diego Rodriguez Porcelos, Count 873-885, son of Rodrigo.
(from 885-897, only two Castilian charters survive, and neither names a
Count)
3. Munio Nuñez de Roa (de Castrogeriz), Count 897-909 (?915). (He is
now thought to have been father of Diego Muñoz, Count of Saldaña,
founder of the Banu Gomez. Since the latter was in all probability
brother of the Counts Osorio Muñoz and Ermegildo Muñoz, Munio's wife was
probably a kinswoman of counts Osorio and Hermengildo Gutierrez.)
(Note from this time, the succession was chaotic, in part due to similar
confusion among the overlord Kings of Leon. In most cases, people are
name only as Count, and not Count of Castile, and the durations over
which they are called Count overlap so it is impossible to determine the
exact succession, and duration of rule over the County.
4. Gonzalo Fernandez, Count 912-915. He is usually said to be son of a
hypothetical Fernando Nuñez, brother of Munio Nuñez, to account for some
of the property of that family coming to this. However it has been
recently discovered that Gonzalo's mother Gutina was Nuñez, so it was
she who was probably Munio's sibling. Gonzalo's father was probably the
Count Fernando Gonzalez living a generation before, who had been
discarded as his father in favor of the hypothetical Fernando Nuñez.
Gonzalo's wife Muniadomna is often called daughter of Munio Nuñez, but
Perez de Urbel demonstrated that she was Muniadomna Ramirez,
granddaughter of Alfonso III of Leon.
5. Fernan Ansurez, Count 916-929. He married Muniadomna Nuñez, who was
probably sister of Munio Nuñez, and widow of Garcia I King of Galicia
(the King's widow is usually placed as daughter of Nuño Fernandez,
below, but the chronology seems to suggest she was a generation older).
6. Fernando Diaz, Count 917-23. He was presumably son of Diego Porcelos.
7. Nuño Fernandez, Count 921-927. He was presumably brother of Gonzalo
Fernandez, and father of the Fernando Nuñez, "filius comitis". It has
also been recently suggested that Tigrida, wife of Diego Muñoz, Count of
Saldaña was his daughter.
8. Fernando Gonzalez, Count from 932. Son of Gonzalo Fernandez, he
would become the first autonomous count.
taf
Francisco Antonio Doria
>of Leon. The meaning of this was probably more like kinsman,
Todd, how does it appear in the original text?
Chico Doria
Francisco Antonio Doria
fad...@rio.com.br
Prix Caumont-La Force 1995
Tels.: 021-547-5541/024-231-4133/021-9943-6968
Visit http://www.rio-v.com/costadoria
Visit http://www.eco.ufrj.br/cdoria
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> >was called "brother" of Ramiro I, King
> >of Leon. The meaning of this was probably more like kinsman,
>
> Todd, how does it appear in the original text?
In arabic. I don't think I have anything which gives the original (and
I would struggle to transcribe it anyways).
taf
Francisco Antonio Doria
>I would struggle to transcribe it anyways).
No, Arabic is beyond my ability - but I have two friends who read it.
I'll check with them whether `brother' may be given a looser meaning.
Chico
sk...@ix.netcom.com
"Make peace with your brother." Would it be the same word?
On 15 Feb 1999 21:08:53 -0800, fad...@rio.com.br (Francisco Antonio
Francisco Antonio Doria
Maybe. I don't know. i don't want to speculate. Chico
sk...@ix.netcom.com
friends?
On 17 Feb 1999 04:49:49 -0800, fad...@rio.com.br (Francisco Antonio
sk...@ix.netcom.com
<ta...@po.cwru.edu> wrote:
>Counts of Castile (all dates approximate):
>
>4. Gonzalo Fernandez, Count 912-915. He is usually said to be son of a
>hypothetical Fernando Nuñez, brother of Munio Nuñez, to account for some
>of the property of that family coming to this. However it has been
>recently discovered that Gonzalo's mother Gutina was Nuñez,
But your Teresa Ahnentafel calls her Muñoz, her father Munio. You
don't need to repeat the history of the confusion of the two names,
but is it clear which one(s) are correct here?
>so it was
>she who was probably Munio's
(i.e. Nuño's?)
> sibling.
<SNIP>
sk...@ix.netcom.com
<ta...@po.cwru.edu> wrote:
>Counts of Castile (all dates approximate):
>
<SNIP>
>
>5. Fernan Ansurez, Count 916-929. He married Muniadomna Nuñez, who was
>probably sister of Munio Nuñez, and widow of Garcia I King of Galicia
Hold everything here, I think I heed a history lesson!
According to my books, Alfonso III abdicated giving Galicia &
Lusitania not to Garcia but to Ordoño, and Leon (half-subjugated) to
Garcia. Is this the Garcia whose widow Fernan Ansurez married?
Francisco Antonio Doria
No. i forgot it. The guy just passed his PhD thesis and I was on the committee... I'll talk to him on Monday. Best, chico
>Subject: Re: Early Counts of Castile
>Sent: 3/16/19 1:27 PM
>Received: 3/13/99 4:57 PM
>From: sk...@ix.netcom.com
>To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Francisco Antonio Doria
Prix Caumont-La Force 1995
(Conféderation Internationale de Généalogie et d'Héraldique.)
fad...@rio.com.br
http://www.rio-v.com/costadoria
Tels.: 021-547-5541/024-231-4133/021-9943-6968
All material posted is copyrighted. Please refer to the author to quote it.
sk...@ix.netcom.com
<ta...@po.cwru.edu> wrote:
>Counts of Castile (all dates approximate):
>
<SNIP>
>6. Fernando Diaz, Count 917-23. He was presumably son of Diego Porcelos.
>
BINGO. I also have five siblings for him (Rodrigo, Gonzalo, Morello,
Diego, Gutina) by an unknown wife of Porcelos but no descendants from
this generation except through a child by another wife of Porcelos,
one Ansura Ansurez (no parents known), mother of a Sulla Ansura,
mother according to one source of Gonzalo Fernandez, Count 912-915.
OK, so that's wrong. But the same source shows also (as sister of
Gonzalo), Theresa Elvira, m Flavio Lain of Vivar thence:
Fernan Lainez Lain Fernandez {now following Menendez Pidal as cited by
TAF} m Tigridia Diaz of Saldana
and so on down to El Cid.
What's wrong with this picture?
Is the mother of Fernando Diaz (& siblings?) known?
Are the early generations supra from Porcelos down to El Cid
supported?
<SNIP>
sk...@ix.netcom.com
<ta...@po.cwru.edu> wrote:
>Counts of Castile (all dates approximate):
>
<SNIP>
>7. Nuño Fernandez, Count 921-927. He was presumably brother of Gonzalo
>Fernandez, and father of the Fernando Nuñez, "filius comitis". It has
>also been recently suggested that Tigrida, wife of Diego Muñoz, Count of
>Saldaña was his daughter.
>
"Suggested?" Isn't that in TAF's Ahnentafel of Terry?
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> On Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:52:32 -0500, "Todd A. Farmerie"
> <ta...@po.cwru.edu> wrote:
>
> >Counts of Castile (all dates approximate):
> >
> <SNIP>
>
> >
> >probably sister of Munio Nuñez, and widow of Garcia I King of Galicia
>
> Hold everything here, I think I heed a history lesson!
> According to my books, Alfonso III abdicated giving Galicia &
> Lusitania not to Garcia but to Ordoño, and Leon (half-subjugated) to
> Garcia. Is this the Garcia whose widow Fernan Ansurez married?
Oops. I was thinking of Alfonso VI's brother when I wrote that.
taf
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> On Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:52:32 -0500, "Todd A. Farmerie"
> <ta...@po.cwru.edu> wrote:
>
> >Counts of Castile (all dates approximate):
> >
>
> <SNIP>
>
> >
> BINGO. I also have five siblings for him (Rodrigo, Gonzalo, Morello,
> Diego, Gutina) by an unknown wife of Porcelos but no descendants from
> this generation except through a child by another wife of Porcelos,
> one Ansura Ansurez (no parents known), mother of a Sulla Ansura,
> mother according to one source of Gonzalo Fernandez, Count 912-915.
> OK, so that's wrong. But the same source shows also (as sister of
> Gonzalo), Theresa Elvira, m Flavio Lain of Vivar thence:
> Fernan Lainez Lain Fernandez {now following Menendez Pidal as cited by
> TAF} m Tigridia Diaz of Saldana
> and so on down to El Cid.
> What's wrong with this picture?
I don't know that any of this can be documented, and many of the names
look fishy. These dual names appear a lot in the 17th century
reconstructions, but rarely can such an individual be shown to have
exister. Both Sulla Ansura as daughter of a Diego, and Theresa Elviara
as sister of Gonzalo Fernandez are problematic (note also the attempt to
force a descent of the later Counts of Castile from the early ones).
Flavio Lain likewise looks bad.
> Is the mother of Fernando Diaz (& siblings?) known?
I don't think so. The Rodriguez paper on the Salinas of Castile may
speculate about which family she belonged to, but no name.
> Are the early generations supra from Porcelos down to El Cid
> supported?
No. Note that my Cid AT provides a different descent. The Cid line is
traced back to Lain Calvo, Judge of Castile, by a chronicle written
after his death. It is tracing him back 200 years, and that very fact
shouldn't inspire much confidence. Anything before that is mere
guesswork (including the version I presented in the Cid AT, based on the
imfamous Vajay charts. As to Porcelos, I know of NO descent from him.
The most complete modern analysis is found in the Rodriguez paper.
taf
Rodriquez Marquina, Javier. Las Salinas de Castilla en el Siglo X, y la
Genealogia de las Familias Condales. in Homenaje a Fray Justo Perez de
Urbel, OSB., 143-51 (1976).
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> On Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:52:32 -0500, "Todd A. Farmerie"
> <ta...@po.cwru.edu> wrote:
>
> >Counts of Castile (all dates approximate):
> >
> <SNIP>
>
> >Fernandez, and father of the Fernando Nuñez, "filius comitis". It has
> >also been recently suggested that Tigrida, wife of Diego Muñoz, Count of
> >Saldaña was his daughter.
> >
> "Suggested?" Isn't that in TAF's Ahnentafel of Terry?
>
I am beginning to regret I ever posted that thing. I had intended to
post comments addressing the various novel connections made (such as
this one) and never got it done. This was suggested in the Vajay
charts, and not explained in detail.
taf
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> On Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:52:32 -0500, "Todd A. Farmerie"
> <ta...@po.cwru.edu> wrote:
> >Counts of Castile (all dates approximate):
> >
> <SNIP>
>
> >hypothetical Fernando Nuñez, brother of Munio Nuñez, to account for some
> >of the property of that family coming to this. However it has been
> >recently discovered that Gonzalo's mother Gutina was Nuñez,
>
> But your Teresa Ahnentafel calls her Muñoz, her father Munio. You
> don't need to repeat the history of the confusion of the two names,
> but is it clear which one(s) are correct here?
Well, the initial statement was a bit misleading too. Basically, the
new evidence shows that the properties and rights which passed from the
Nunez to Gonzalo Fernandez were in right of his mother Gutina, who must
then have been a member of the Nunez clan. Chronology suggests that she
was actually aunt of the COunt Munio Nunez, and daughter of an earlier
Munio Nunez.
taf