Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss
Possible CP Correction: Death date of Katherine Clivedon, wife of Thomas de Berkeley
64 views
Skip to first unread message
Jim Weber
Jun 20, 2012, 12:58:32 AM6/20/12
to
Hi,
CP II:129-30 states that Katherine Clivedon, widow of Thomas de
Bekeley (d. 27 Oct 1361), d. 13 Mar 1385 (BTW shouldn't that be 13 Mar
1384/5?). However I found the following in A2A that indicates she
might have been dead by 27 Aug 1369.
Jim Weber
[no title] BCM/A/5/9/4 [1369]
These documents are held at Berkeley Castle Muniments
Language: French
Contents:
The executors of Lady Katherine de Berkel', lady of Wotton, and John
de Berkel' her son. 27 Aug. 43 Edw. III
John will claim from the executors of Katherine, of her goods and
chattels, only the following articles, viz. a silver hanaper with a
cover enamelled with the arms of Berkel', six cups enclosed within an
ewer engraved with the arms of Berkel', six dishes of silver and six
saucers and six pans of silver, and all the things which he had by
demise of the lord his father; item, the goods that John had through
Eleanor recently his wife, viz. a quilt cover of sendal powdered with
blue roses, a bed of blue embroidered with the arms of Sir Robert
Dasshton (viz. one coverlet, a half-tester, six embroidered covers and
three plain), three worsted curtains, one pair of lintels [etc.],
which Robert had by grant of Lady Katherine and which Robert gave to
Eleanor his daughter and she demised to John her husband, a bowl with
cover with a rose in enamel of the arms of Berkel' and Cobeham, and
two gold rings; item, of the goods which Katherine had demised to John
and which her executors will deliver to him when he is of age, viz.
one quilt of sendal tulle, five covers of tulle, one mattress, one
pair of curtain lintels, one sendal pillow, and other things.
Witnesses: Walter Burgh, Nicholas Kyngescote, Adam Legat, Walter
Benyimin, Sir John Oldelonde.
Sealed by Henry Warner and Nicholas de Kyngescote, John's esquires,
because John is within age.
At: Wotton.
[Please quote GC3609 at Berkeley Castle Muniments when requesting this
file]
NOTE: I am also curious as to who Sir Robert de Dasshton is?
CP II:129-30 states that Katherine Clivedon, widow of Thomas de
Bekeley (d. 27 Oct 1361), d. 13 Mar 1385 (BTW shouldn't that be 13 Mar
1384/5?). However I found the following in A2A that indicates she
might have been dead by 27 Aug 1369.
Jim Weber
[no title] BCM/A/5/9/4 [1369]
These documents are held at Berkeley Castle Muniments
Language: French
Contents:
The executors of Lady Katherine de Berkel', lady of Wotton, and John
de Berkel' her son. 27 Aug. 43 Edw. III
John will claim from the executors of Katherine, of her goods and
chattels, only the following articles, viz. a silver hanaper with a
cover enamelled with the arms of Berkel', six cups enclosed within an
ewer engraved with the arms of Berkel', six dishes of silver and six
saucers and six pans of silver, and all the things which he had by
demise of the lord his father; item, the goods that John had through
Eleanor recently his wife, viz. a quilt cover of sendal powdered with
blue roses, a bed of blue embroidered with the arms of Sir Robert
Dasshton (viz. one coverlet, a half-tester, six embroidered covers and
three plain), three worsted curtains, one pair of lintels [etc.],
which Robert had by grant of Lady Katherine and which Robert gave to
Eleanor his daughter and she demised to John her husband, a bowl with
cover with a rose in enamel of the arms of Berkel' and Cobeham, and
two gold rings; item, of the goods which Katherine had demised to John
and which her executors will deliver to him when he is of age, viz.
one quilt of sendal tulle, five covers of tulle, one mattress, one
pair of curtain lintels, one sendal pillow, and other things.
Witnesses: Walter Burgh, Nicholas Kyngescote, Adam Legat, Walter
Benyimin, Sir John Oldelonde.
Sealed by Henry Warner and Nicholas de Kyngescote, John's esquires,
because John is within age.
At: Wotton.
[Please quote GC3609 at Berkeley Castle Muniments when requesting this
file]
NOTE: I am also curious as to who Sir Robert de Dasshton is?
Douglas Richardson
Jun 20, 2012, 1:22:24 AM6/20/12
to
Jim ~
My files notes show that Katherine de Cliveden, Lady Berkeley,
presented to the chapel of Tockington, Gloucestershire in 1375.
As such, Katherine, Lady Berkeley was obviously not dead before 27
August 1369.
The document you present does indicate, however, that Eleanor Ashton
(or Assheton), the first wife of Lady Katherine's son, John de
Berkeley, had died before 27 August 1369.
"Sir Robert de Dasshton" named in this document was Eleanor Ashton's
father, Robert de Ashton, Knt., of Ashton, Charlton, East Lydford,
Knole (in Long Sutton), and Pitney Lorty, Somerset, Lord High
Treasurer, 1375–7, Chancellor and Justiciar of Ireland, Admiral of the
West, Governor of Dover Castle and Warden of the Cinque Ports.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
My files notes show that Katherine de Cliveden, Lady Berkeley,
presented to the chapel of Tockington, Gloucestershire in 1375.
As such, Katherine, Lady Berkeley was obviously not dead before 27
August 1369.
The document you present does indicate, however, that Eleanor Ashton
(or Assheton), the first wife of Lady Katherine's son, John de
Berkeley, had died before 27 August 1369.
"Sir Robert de Dasshton" named in this document was Eleanor Ashton's
father, Robert de Ashton, Knt., of Ashton, Charlton, East Lydford,
Knole (in Long Sutton), and Pitney Lorty, Somerset, Lord High
Treasurer, 1375–7, Chancellor and Justiciar of Ireland, Admiral of the
West, Governor of Dover Castle and Warden of the Cinque Ports.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Douglas Richardson
Jun 20, 2012, 9:29:38 AM6/20/12
to
Jim ~
The record of the presentation of Katherine de Cliveden, Lady Berkeley
to the chapel of Tockington, Gloucestershire in 1375 can be found in
the following source:
Calender of the Register of Henry Wakefeld, Bishop of Worcester
1375–1395 (Worcestershire Hist. Soc. n.s. 7) (1972): 2.
It may be viewed in snippet view at the following weblink:
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=%22Aleyn.+P.+the+lady+Katherine+de+Berkeley%22&btnG=
The same record is also cited in an article published in Transactions
of the Bristol & Gloucestershire Arch. Soc. 13 (1888–9): 247–251.
This source may be viewed in snippet view at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=9YkbAQAAIAAJ&q=Tockington+Katherine+1375&dq=Tockington+Katherine+1375&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Ps_hT_DWA63g2wWUzOXJCw&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAg
The record of the presentation of Katherine de Cliveden, Lady Berkeley
to the chapel of Tockington, Gloucestershire in 1375 can be found in
the following source:
Calender of the Register of Henry Wakefeld, Bishop of Worcester
1375–1395 (Worcestershire Hist. Soc. n.s. 7) (1972): 2.
It may be viewed in snippet view at the following weblink:
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=%22Aleyn.+P.+the+lady+Katherine+de+Berkeley%22&btnG=
The same record is also cited in an article published in Transactions
of the Bristol & Gloucestershire Arch. Soc. 13 (1888–9): 247–251.
This source may be viewed in snippet view at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=9YkbAQAAIAAJ&q=Tockington+Katherine+1375&dq=Tockington+Katherine+1375&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Ps_hT_DWA63g2wWUzOXJCw&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAg
Jim Weber
Jun 20, 2012, 12:39:02 PM6/20/12
to
On Jun 20, 6:29 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
> Jim ~
>
> The record of the presentation of Katherine de Cliveden, Lady Berkeley
> to the chapel of Tockington, Gloucestershire in 1375 can be found in
> the following source:
>
> Calender of the Register of Henry Wakefeld, Bishop of Worcester
> 1375–1395 (Worcestershire Hist. Soc. n.s. 7) (1972): 2.
>
> It may be viewed in snippet view at the following weblink:
>
> https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=%22Aleyn.+P.+the+lady+K...
> Jim ~
>
> The record of the presentation of Katherine de Cliveden, Lady Berkeley
> to the chapel of Tockington, Gloucestershire in 1375 can be found in
> the following source:
>
> Calender of the Register of Henry Wakefeld, Bishop of Worcester
> 1375–1395 (Worcestershire Hist. Soc. n.s. 7) (1972): 2.
>
> It may be viewed in snippet view at the following weblink:
>
>
> The same record is also cited in an article published in Transactions
> of the Bristol & Gloucestershire Arch. Soc. 13 (1888–9): 247–251.
>
> This source may be viewed in snippet view at the following weblink:
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=9YkbAQAAIAAJ&q=Tockington+Katherine+...
> The same record is also cited in an article published in Transactions
> of the Bristol & Gloucestershire Arch. Soc. 13 (1888–9): 247–251.
>
> This source may be viewed in snippet view at the following weblink:
>
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Douglas,
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
So the meeting documented in A2A was a "planning session" between John
and the executors of his mother Katherine, probably with her
involvement, about the eventual settlement of some of her personal
items. I should have looked at your book. I see that Eleanor Ashton/
Assheton is documented as John's 1st wife in MCA, p. 329.
Jim Weber
Douglas Richardson
Jun 20, 2012, 4:46:43 PM6/20/12
to
Jim ~
You're correct in assuming that when a reference is made to someone's
executors, it almost always means that they are deceased. So your
working assumption was good.
In this case, however, Katherine de Clivedon, Lady Berkeley was still
very much alive. A person can appoint executors in their lifetime.
DR
You're correct in assuming that when a reference is made to someone's
executors, it almost always means that they are deceased. So your
working assumption was good.
In this case, however, Katherine de Clivedon, Lady Berkeley was still
very much alive. A person can appoint executors in their lifetime.
DR
Wjhonson
Jun 20, 2012, 5:06:23 PM6/20/12
to royala...@msn.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Your first link below doesn't work try
http://books.google.com/books?ei=-zriT7mwDMG-2gWw9s3iCw&id=lA4aAAAAYAAJ&dq=%22calendar+of+the+register+of+henry%22+katherine+berkeley&q=katherine+de+berkeley
-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Richardson <royala...@msn.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wed, Jun 20, 2012 6:36 am
Subject: Re: Possible CP Correction: Death date of Katherine de Clivedon, wife of Thomas de Berkeley
Jim ~
The record of the presentation of Katherine de Cliveden, Lady Berkeley
o the chapel of Tockington, Gloucestershire in 1375 can be found in
he following source:
Calender of the Register of Henry Wakefeld, Bishop of Worcester
Calender of the Register of Henry Wakefeld, Bishop of Worcester
375–1395 (Worcestershire Hist. Soc. n.s. 7) (1972): 2.
It may be viewed in snippet view at the following weblink:
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=%22Aleyn.+P.+the+lady+Katherine+de+Berkeley%22&btnG=
The same record is also cited in an article published in Transactions
It may be viewed in snippet view at the following weblink:
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=%22Aleyn.+P.+the+lady+Katherine+de+Berkeley%22&btnG=
The same record is also cited in an article published in Transactions
f the Bristol & Gloucestershire Arch. Soc. 13 (1888–9): 247–251.
This source may be viewed in snippet view at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=9YkbAQAAIAAJ&q=Tockington+Katherine+1375&dq=Tockington+Katherine+1375&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Ps_hT_DWA63g2wWUzOXJCw&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAg
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
------------------------------
This source may be viewed in snippet view at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=9YkbAQAAIAAJ&q=Tockington+Katherine+1375&dq=Tockington+Katherine+1375&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Ps_hT_DWA63g2wWUzOXJCw&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAg
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com
ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
he message
0 new messages