Cardinal Henry Beaufort, alleged daughter Jane, wife of Edward Stradling of St. Donat’s

[Steve Riggan]

Hello, all. I am just returning to soc.gen.med after some years of absence. I am looking into the Dennis family of Olveston, Gloucestershire and Dyrham. For some time, the maternity of Walter Dennis of Olveston, Gloucs. who died in 1505 has been unconfirmed. He was the son of Maurice Denys/Dennis and supposedly Katherine/Joan Stradling, an alleged daughter of Edward Stradling of St.Donat’s and Joan Beaufort, said to be the illegitimate daughter of Cardinal Henry Beaufort, half brother of King Henry IV of England. I remember some discussions about this line on this forum and a paper in FMC by Brad Verity. According to the Magna Carta Project, the issue still has not been resolved and I wondered if anyone knows of new research or findings regarding the Dennis/Stradling lines? Thank you.

Steve Riggan

[Will Johnson]

On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 5:04:16 PM UTC-7, affirm...@gmail.com wrote:
> Hello, all. I am just returning to soc.gen.med after some years of absence. I am looking into the Dennis family of Olveston, Gloucestershire and Dyrham. For some time, the maternity of Walter Dennis of Olveston, Gloucs. who died in 1505 has been unconfirmed. He was the son of Maurice Denys/Dennis and supposedly Katherine/Joan Stradling, an alleged daughter of Edward Stradling of St.Donat’s and Joan Beaufort, said to be the illegitimate daughter of Cardinal Henry Beaufort, half brother of King Henry IV of England. I remember some discussions about this line on this forum and a paper in FMC by Brad Verity. According to the Magna Carta Project, the issue still has not been resolved and I wondered if anyone knows of new research or findings regarding the Dennis/Stradling lines? Thank you.
>
> Steve Riggan

What evidence.
The Close Roll of 1479 states that her name was "Katherine daughter of Sir Edward Stradling"

[Will Johnson]

Also

https://archive.org/details/visitationofcoun00inchit/page/50/mode/1up?q=Dennis
Vis Glouc 1623, "Dennis", pg 50
"Morrys Dennis +1 Katherine d of Edward Stradling, +2 Alice d of Nicholas Pointz"

[Paulo Ricardo Canedo]

A segunda-feira, 11 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 01:04:16 UTC+1, affirm...@gmail.com escreveu:
> Hello, all. I am just returning to soc.gen.med after some years of absence. I am looking into the Dennis family of Olveston, Gloucestershire and Dyrham. For some time, the maternity of Walter Dennis of Olveston, Gloucs. who died in 1505 has been unconfirmed. He was the son of Maurice Denys/Dennis and supposedly Katherine/Joan Stradling, an alleged daughter of Edward Stradling of St.Donat’s and Joan Beaufort, said to be the illegitimate daughter of Cardinal Henry Beaufort, half brother of King Henry IV of England. I remember some discussions about this line on this forum and a paper in FMC by Brad Verity. According to the Magna Carta Project, the issue still has not been resolved and I wondered if anyone knows of new research or findings regarding the Dennis/Stradling lines? Thank you.
>
> Steve Riggan

There is no doubt Joan was the Cardinal's daughter. I also see no reason to doubt Katherine's maternity as there is no evidence Edward Stradling had illegtimate children as Walter Dennis was of status to marry legítimate daughter of his.

[Andrew Z]

Thank you for posting this question and for the responses from Will and Paulo, I've been wondering myself if there have been any recent updates since the debate in 2004. The information from the Close Roll of 1479 is very interesting, but since I don't have access to it, Will, could you I ask you to to expand the quote from it in regard to Katherine Stradling or provide its context (e.g. is Katherine mentioned as the wife of Maurice Dennis or mother of Walter Dennis)? I agree with Paulo that since there is no evidence that this Edward Stradling had illegitimate children and Maurice Dennis was of status to marry a legitimate daughter of Sir Edward Stradling, there is no reason to doubt that Katherine was a daughter of his only wife, Joan Beaufort. Many thanks!

[John Higgins]

Actually the lengthy 2004 thread on the subject of Jane Beaufort and Katherine Stradling indicates that there is evidence that Sir Edward Stradling, husband of Jane Beaufort, DID have illegitimate children (although some may challenge that point, in order to achieve a royal descent for Katherine Stradling). In addition, there is no firm evidence that Katherine Stradling was a legitimate daughter of her father.

I don't propose to re-hash the 2004 thread, as I think the matter was thoroughly discussed there. My judgment is that the maternity of Katherine Stradling cannot be firmly determined (as to whether she was legitimate or illegitimate).

BTW the thread in question is titled "Katherine Deighton's New Royal Ancestry". Needless to say, Katherine Deighton would not have this particular royal ancestry if Katherine Stradling was illegitimate.

[Paulo Ricardo Canedo]

It's known that a Sir Edward Stradling had illegitimate children but it may have been the greatgrandson of this one. In addition, Maurice Denis was of status to marry a legitimate daughter of Sir Edward Stradling. He had a large inheritance.

[John Higgins]

Actually Sir Edward Stradling who married Jane Beaufort DID have illegitimate children - and so did his great-grandson, another Sir Edward Stradling (which is irrelevant). In fact the same source lists illegitimate children for both men. So you cannot say, as you did in your earlier post, that "there is no evidence Edward Stradling had illegitimate children".

The point is that the maternity of Katherine Stradling is unknown. She is not mentioned in Clark's work as either a legitimate or illegitimate daughter of Sir Edward Stradling. And, based on the 2004 discussion, no other source indicates her maternity. So there is no basis for claiming that she is legitimate - or illegitimate.

[Paulo Ricardo Canedo]

It has been a long while since I read the threads on this subject, but, as I recall, a source said a Sir Edward Stradling had illegitimate children but it's not clear which one was meant.

[John Higgins]

The source in question is George T. Clarke, Limbus Patrum Morganiae et Galmorganiae. I have a copy of that work, and I can confirm that it says that BOTH the elder Sir Edward Stradling and his great-grandson Sir Edward Stradling the younger had illegitimate children.

I think the argument was that, if Clark showed no legitimate children for the elder Sir Edward Stradling, then Katherine must have been legitimate (a pretty weak argument, actually). But since Clark DOES list both legitimate and illegitimate children for Sir Edward Stradling and does NOT include Katherine in either group, there is no way to determine - from that source - whether Katherine was legitimate or illegitimate. And the 2004 discussion did not provide any other source indicating her maternity.

So...do you still feel, as you stated at the beginning of this current thread, that there "is no reason to doubt Katherine's maternity" i.e., that she was the daughter of Joan Beaufort as claimed by Douglas Richardson back in 2004? If so, what is now your reason for continuing to support that claim?

[Paulo Ricardo Canedo]

I re-read the thread and saw your post showing that. However, you, yourself, said in this thread "some may challenge that point". Could you, please, expand on that? Also, as I said, Maurice Denis had a large inheritance and, IMO, would have been unlikely to marry an illegitimate daughter of Sir Edward Stradling.

[Andrew Z]

Hi John, thank you for the detailed replies! I was going to ask you about the source referring to the Stradling illegitimate children and you shared it in your last comment. There were comments in the past about how there was a mix up between the two Sir Edwards, but I wasn't able to find a detailed explanation about it. As such, I was curious to read the source myself and my main observation is that there are some errors and contradictions contained in it (on the basis of my quick review of relevant entries).

Namely:
1) Clark indicates Alice, daughter of Earl of Arundel as the mother of Jane Beaufort
2) He assigns John as a bastard to the first Sir Edward and makes him the ancestor of Stradlings of Gelligaer. However, that entry (pg. 440) shows John’s grandson marrying in 1608 and having issue, which would make it impossible for the first Sir Edward (d. 1452) to be this John’s father.
3) He lists Catherine, d. of Sir Edward Stradling as the 1st wife of Morris Dennis and the mother of Walter Dennis (pg. 382) without indicating her being base born, even though he didn't list Catherine as one of Sir Edward Stradling's children (pg. 435).

Based on these, in my mind, Clark doesn’t appear to be a reliable source in regard to indicating 15th century legitimacy/illegitimacy and as such, since Sir Edward Stradling had only one wife, I would personally lean towards his daughter, Katherine, as being legitimate.

Plus, as Paolo said, an illegitimate daughter of knight would not have been an advantageous match for Maurice Dennis. As it happens, only yesterday I came across this passage in the The House of Beaufort (by Nathan Amin) about John of Gaunt's efforts to marry his (then) illegitimate daughter: "The Ferrers were an established gentry family based in Shropshire and Staffordshire, and had fought for the duke of Lancaster in the French wars. It was a solid, if unspectacular, engagement for Joan, with the marriage eventually taking place in 1392, shortly after Robert’s sixteenth birthday. On account of her illegitimate status, Joan was restricted from bringing any lands or titles to the marriage, and was therefore not an attractive marital prospect for any bachelors further up the social ladder seeking an estate by right of their wife"

Again, thank you all for your responses, they are very helpful.

[John Higgins]

My remark, which you partially quoted, was "some may challenge that point, in order to achieve a royal descent for Katherine Stradling". " I was trying to be subtle - apparently too much so for you. :-) You should be able to figure out what (or, more specifically, who) I was referring to. :-)

I said in my first post in this current thread that "I don't propose to re-hash the 2004 thread, as I think the matter was thoroughly discussed there". I'm going to stick to that statement now, as I don't think there is anything to be gained by further discussion. It's all just speculation on an issue which cannot be firmly decided. In the absence of actual evidence beyond what has already been discussed at length, I'll leave it to others to discuss the question. IMO there still is no definitive answer to the question of whether Katherine Stradling was legitimate or illegitimate - and thus whether Katherine Deighton has a royal descent or not.

[Elizabeth A]

Katherine Deighton has a descent from Edward I, at least if the sources cited on Genealogics are to be believed--Katherine Stradling's grandson Sir William Dennis married Anne Berkeley, who has a descent that runs Berkeley-Mowbray-FitzAlan-Bohun.

[Johnny Brananas]

Right, there is at least one Edward I descent which does not depend upon Stradling's status. I can't exactly remember, but there may not be another Edward III descent if Stradling lacks the Beaufort connection.

[John Higgins]

Elizabeth and John are correct. There are other Edward I descents for Katherine Deighton besides the disputed Stradling descent - 5 by my count. And, if my data is correct, the disputed Stradling descent is the only one that gives Katherine Deighton an Edward III descent. I should have been more careful in my wording regarding Katherine Deighton's "royal" descents. It was specifically the Edward III descent that was the issue in the 2004 thread - and in this thread.

[Steve Riggan]

Besides the Deighton family, Thomas Ligon of Virginia and Rev. Edward Foliot, also of Virginia, were descendants of Anne Berkeley and William Dennis. Through the Berkeley line, there are three lines to Edward I, two by his first wife Eleanor of Castile, and one by 2nd wife Margaret of France. Thomas Ligon is one of my gateway ancestors.

Steve Riggan

[Will Johnson]

The source for the quotation from the Close Roll 1479 is

https://books.google.com/books?id=bDlKAAAAYAAJ&lpg=PA62&ots=_RBv5-gGBG&dq=%22edward%20stradling%22%20close%20roll%201479&pg=PA62#v=onepage&q&f=false

Note that this is not a published series of Close Roll entries, just the one relevant to this question
However note the author has enquoted the entire paragraph, *implying* it's an exact quote from the Roll

[Brad Verity]

On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 6:35:56 PM UTC-7, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> What evidence.
> The Close Roll of 1479 states that her name was "Katherine daughter of Sir Edward Stradling"

???
Will, can you link to this Close Roll entry? I was completely unaware of it when I wrote my article for FMG in 2004. In a footnote in that article, I summed up the evidence for Sir Edward Stradling having a daughter married to Maurice Dennys:

"In the Winston pedigree of 1607, a daughter, Katherin Stradling, wife of Watkyn Wynston, Lord of Winston, is assigned to Edward [stradling] and Jane [Beaufort]. Curiously, in the Dennis pedigree published in a manuscript copy of the 1623 Visitation of Gloucestershire (Maclean and Heane, 1885), a Katherine, daughter of Sir Edward Stradling, is given as the first wife of Maurice Dennis. An earlier pedigree of the Dennis family, dating to about 1530 and now housed in the College of Arms (London, College of Arms, Muniment Room, MS.3/54), names the first wife of Maurice Dennis as 'Johanna Stradling' but doesn't ascribe parentage to her. Neither of these daughters is found in surviving 15th-century records, and they are not named, nor are their marriages listed, in Sir Edward Stradling's [a later one, descended from Sir Edward Stradling and Jane Beaufort] account of his family from the 1560s."

To answer Steve's original question in this thread, I know of no further research since 2004 regarding the identity of the Stradling first wife of Maurice Dennis. I should point out my article was written to debunk the notion that the mistress of Cardinal Beaufort was Alice (Fitzalan of Arundel), Lady Cherleton. Two different researchers have contacted me privately in the past five or so years, providing some tantalizing evidence that could help in identifying Cardinal Beaufort's mistress, the mother of his daughter Jane. But to my knowledge, neither has yet published their findings, so I won't detail or summarize what they shared with me until they do so.

Cheers, -----Brad

[Peter Stewart]

The name Stradling does not occur in the published 1479 close roll, see
here: https://www.british-history.ac.uk/cal-close-rolls/edw4/1476-85

Peter Stewart

[Will Johnson]

https://books.google.com/books?id=bDlKAAAAYAAJ&lpg=PA62&ots=_RBv5-gGBG&pg=PA62

Close Roll AD 1479 states "That John Kemys survived both his wife Margaret and her son Maurice Denys This Maurice married Katherine daughter of Sir Edward Stradling Knight of St Donat Castle Glamorgan "


Note that *this author* (not me) has enqouted the entire sentence. I suppose it is possible that they only mean to enquote a smaller portion, but this is my source for what I said.

[Peter Stewart]

A paper read by Thomas Bush in 1898 to a group of provincial enthusiasts
is hardly an authoritative source for what is or is not in the close
roll for 1479, especially when the author clearly adjusts his translated
paraphrases given in quotation marks to suit the structure of his own
English sentences - NB on pp 61-62: 'A Gloucestershire Inquisition, A.D.
1477, shews:- "That John Kemys died ..."'; 'A Dorset Inquisition, 1477,
states:- "That John Kemys and Margaret ...'"; 'Close Roll, A.D. 1479,
states:- "That John Kemys survived ..."'. Do you suppose the syntax
represented by Bush can be found in his purported medieval sources, all
conveniently starting with "That ..."? Or the peculiar antiquarian
sidelight in a reference to John Kemys about whose daughter Maurice
Denys, the subject's step-son, had married?

There is little enough to go by on this matter, but I'm not sure what
confidence can be placed in the circumstance that Maurice Denys was
wealthy enough to marry a legitimate daughter of Edward Stradling - if
Denys was Stradling's ward and the latter had acquired the right to
arrange the former's marriage, what would have prevented the favouring
of an illegitimate daughter with a better marriage than could otherwise
be obtained for her?

Peter Stewart

[FemmeFenrir]

Will, thank you for posting that link and Brad, thank you for the update! That's too bad that there was no matching record in the 1479 Close Roll. Also, Steve, thanks for sharing the information about the Berkley lines to Edward I - I only explored one previously.

I noticed that in some of the earlier discussions there were references to the images of the 1530 Dennis pedigree - would someone be able to share a copy of it (in high resolution, if possible)? I'd love to have a copy for my records and would be curious to take a closer look at some of the coat of arms in it. Many thanks!

[Andrew Z]

On Saturday, October 16, 2021 at 8:11:39 PM UTC-4, FemmeFenrir wrote:
> Will, thank you for posting that link and Brad, thank you for the update! That's too bad that there was no matching record in the 1479 Close Roll. Also, Steve, thanks for sharing the information about the Berkley lines to Edward I - I only explored one previously.
>
> I noticed that in some of the earlier discussions there were references to the images of the 1530 Dennis pedigree - would someone be able to share a copy of it (in high resolution, if possible)? I'd love to have a copy for my records and would be curious to take a closer look at some of the coat of arms in it. Many thanks!

Thank you Will and Brad, as well as all the others who contributed to the discussion.

Here is the link to the photos of the 1520 Dennis pedigree from The Family History Book by Stella Colwell (pg.15) and The Herald's Commemorative Exhibition 1484-1934 (plate XLIV).
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1LsZxKcS7r92l70RP89-s0kH3l1i18dh3

Maurice Denys' first wife is named as Johanna Stradlyng; however her coat of arms, a chevron between three roses, does not appear on the coat of arms of Sir Edward Stradling's grandson (https://museum.wales/collections/online/object/95669d86-7fe8-3762-a422-f55d267e97ce/Thomas-d1480-and-Elizabeth-d1533-Stradlinge/?field0=string&value0=stradling&field1=with_images&value1=1&index=3), although there was a somewhat similar Stradling arms variation: paly of six, on a chevron three cinquefoil (https://archive.org/details/memorialsofdanve00macn/page/n31/mode/2up).

Any insight on identifying these arms (chevron between three roses) would be welcome.

I also note that the arms of Sir Walter on his monumental brass contain his mother's arms (as per the pedigree) in the 4th quarter, implying that she was legitimate and a heraldic heiress (i.e. she had no brothers), which might have implications for the possible maternity of Sir Walter. However, the assumption that the arms in the 4th quarter are those of his mother rests solely on the 1520 Dennis pedigree and should be confirmed by the College of Arms, along with the possibility of her being a heraldic heiress. (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b8/Denys_funerary_brass%2C_Saint_Mary_the_Virgin%2C_Olveston%2C_Gloucestershire%2C_England_-_20090920.jpg)

[Kevan Barton]

Just for clarity, cinquefoils are in the rose family and may be confused with roses in arms (especially when quartered). I can't add to the overall discussion here, but the question should be "why are the arms differenced?" The answer might be with the order of succession. Was Edward the grandson the oldest grandson, etc.? Was his father the oldest son? If there were older brothers in either generation (depending on when they died), it might have forced the younger to assume a permanently differenced set of arms? Thus, you might have a pretty clear trail for the reason behind the "paly of six, on a chevron Three cinquefoil (roses). Okay, I'll go back to just reading what you guys say. Cheers,
Kevan

[Andrew Z]

Hi Kevan, thank you for your response, that's a great point! My initial thought that it was a corruption of the cinquefoil flower since the only arms with three roses between a chevron that I came across so far is that of Wadham in Devon, but I don't see a connection there.

In the Memorials of the Danvers Family, it says "Amongst the Glamorganshire deeds is one dated 1452 (Clark, vol. ii., p. 169), a grant of land in Coyty by Edmund Stradling; a note to the deed states that Edmund was son of Sir Edmund, of Winter bourne Dauntesey, son of Sir John Stradling and Joan Dauntesey. The seal attached to the deed quarters 1 and 4 paly of six, a chevron (Stradling), 2 and 3, three bars undy for Dauntesey...The Stradlings seem to have used two coats — the above, but more commonly paly of six on a bend three cinquefoils."

However, Edmund's granddaughter, Anne Stradling/Danvers has the more common Stradling arms displayed on her monumental brass (https://archive.org/details/memorialsofdanve00macn/page/n336/mode/1up). I am no expert on heraldry though, so I am not sure why the arms would be differenced in this case, or in that of Sir Walter's mother. It'd be great to find a clear trail through the family arms, but the only child of Sir Edward Stradling to be consistently indicated as his issue was Sir Henry, thus limiting our potential sample scope.

[HWynn]

Thank you all, especially Andrew Z, for this interesting information. I like mystery myself and thought that the coat of arms attached to Maurice Dennis' first wife could have been a Berkerolles coat of arms? I have seen that book, and it was hard to see the illustration. I am no expert, either, but Gwenllian Berkerolles was the wife of Sir Edward Stradling's grandfather, another Edward Stradling (about 1319-1394?). It's possible a mistake was made and crescents should have been drawn instead of roses.

In addition, I read Peter Bartrum's book before it was taken off line (fortunately, it is at our county library and I will read it again when I get back from vacation). In the book, I recall seeing that "Catherine" or Caterine Stradling (ca 1360- ?), Sir Edward's aunt and a daughter of Gwenllian, was the "Catherine" Stradling who married Watkin Wynston.

I understand that Maurice Dennis was Sir Edward Stradling's ward from about age 12 until he reached majority in 1431, but in my research about marriage of wards or minors in Medieval England, couldn't Maurice refuse to marry an "illegitimate" daughter of his guardian, if she was "below" his social standing and had no inheritance? I believe he had that right. Also, wasn't Maurice a ward of the Crown when his father Gilbert Dennis died in 1422, which would have retained marriage rights for Maurice? Maybe Joanne or Katherine Stradling, legitimate or not, had assets not recorded.

Regards, everyone, and thank you again

[HWynn]

[Andrew Z]

On Wednesday, October 27, 2021 at 9:56:42 AM UTC-4, HWynn wrote:

Thank you HWynn, I really appreciate you saying that! The arms in the Dennis pedigree and on Sir Walter's monumental brass definitely don't add any certainty to the matter. I should also add that Sir Walter opted to replace the Ferre arms in his father's 4th quarter with those of his potential mother, but his son didn't retain either of those in his own arms.

Thank you for your response, that's an excellent observation about the Berkerolles arms! Of all the Stradling quarterings found in Sir Thomas Stradling's arms, that's the closest one (three crescents between a chevron), but I am not sure under what circumstances these arms could potentially pass to Sir Walter's mother. From History of Wales (pg. xliii) "Sir Edward Stradling Knt his son succeeded him who because he was sole heir general to the said Barbe did quarter S Barbe's arms with his To whom also in the thirteenth year of of King Henry the Fourth fell the whole inheritance of the Berkerolles and the right of the fourth part of Turbervile's inheritance Lord of Coyty aforesaid the which for lack of issue male of the said Berkerolles remainned to Gamage and to his heirs male by the especial entail aforesaid The which Sir Edward did quarter not only the said Berkerolles arms with his but also Turberviles and lestynes arms of whom the Turberviles had in marriage one of the inheritors as is before said because the said Sir Edward was one of the four heirs general to Sir Richard Turbervile to wit son to Sir William Stradling son to Gwenllian sister and heir to the said Laurence Berkerolles and daughter to Catharine eldest sister and one of the four heirs general to the aforesaid Sir Richard Turbervile" (https://books.google.ca/books/about/The_History_of_Wales.html?id=83M_AQAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false)

Also, through the Memorials of the Danvers Family book, we can identify most of the inherited arms that are found in the coat of arms of Sir Thomas Stradling.

1. Stradling 2. Hawey 3. Strongbow 4. Gernon or Garnon 5. Not identified 6. Justyn 7. Turberville 8. Berkerolles
https://museum.wales/collections/online/object/95669d86-7fe8-3762-a422-f55d267e97ce/Thomas-d1480-and-Elizabeth-d1533-Stradlinge/?field0=string&value0=stradling&field1=with_images&value1=1&index=3

I would also like to share the Stradling family pedigree from the Golden Grove Book of Pedigrees. Although this may not be a reliable source and does not provide details on all the issue of the earlier generations, it can be a useful starting point for an overview of later generations: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1J67VIfhPiH1FyuaIb3CgxuC_w8Q3SXPf

Very interesting! If Catherine Stradling (wife of Watkin Wynston) was a daughter of Sir Edward Stradling (the grandfather of Sir Edward who married Jane Beaufort) and Gwenllian, that could explain why there was a Catherine Stradling in the Wynston pedigree. When you have a chance, please let us know what else Peter Bartrum's book says in regard to this discussion and in the meantime, enjoy your vacation!

Since you know more than me about the marriage of wards in medieval England, all I can add is that you raise some very good questions that should be explored further. Sir Edward Stradling was certainly very mindful of building his family's influence and wealth: he acquired the wardship of Maurice Denys after his Sir Gilbert's death, Maurice's mother, Margaret Russell, was married to Sir Edward's nephew (thus denying Maurice some of the Russell estates) and her widowed step mother, Joan Dauntsey, was married to Sir Edward's brother. I am sure he would have tried to benefit from Maurice's marriage as well, so it'd be interesting to determine if Maurice had the right to refuse unsuitable brides.

[HWynn]

Andew Z
I found the Peter Bartrum's genealogy on the Stradlings and Wynstons in Geni.com. You can register for geni.com for free, then look for "Peter Bartrum Welsh Genealogy geni" on your search engine, or look on geni.com. There will be a long list of topics from his book. Go to Genealogies 1400-1500 (bottom of the page) and look for "Stradling". It's under Stradling1. Bartrum wrote that "11 Catrin Stradling" = Watkin ap John Wynston 1 (11 meaning 11th generation, and 1 meaning, he's under Wynston, page 1). Anyway, Catrin is actually the daughter of Sir Edward Stradling and Gwenllian Berkerolles, and is our Sir Edward's aunt, not daughter.
I didn't have to go to our county library after all, although his books are there.
Interestingly, if one goes to our Sir Edward's great-grandson, Sir Edward- he had 22 children with 4 women. One was his Wife, and 3 were mistresses, whose names are recorded. So Cardinal Beaufort probably has a tremendous number of descendants.

[Andrew Z]

Thank you, HWynn, that's a great find! I did not know that geni.com had this resource with actual pedigree scans, I'll be sure to use it in the future. I took a look at both Stradling 1 and Wynston 1, this could help explain why the Wynston pedigree of 1607 shows Katherin Stradling, wife of Watkyn Wynston, to be a daughter of Sir Edward Stradling (although it has Jane Beaufort as her mother). That's interesting about the later Sir Edward - he certainly helped increase the number of descendants of Edward III!

[Andrew Z]

Hello,

Please see below for additional information in regard to my earlier posts:

> I also note that the arms of Sir Walter on his monumental brass contain his mother's arms (as per the pedigree) in the 4th quarter, implying that she was legitimate and a heraldic heiress (i.e. she had no brothers), which might have implications for the possible maternity of Sir Walter.

I revisited the Dennis pedigree and upon closer examination of it, I believe that the 4th quarter of Sir Walter’s arms does not contain a chevron and (from what I could tell) contains the Dennis arms (see the new Sir Walter Dennis and Sir Walter Dennis 2 images in the previously shared Dennis 1520 Pedigree folder), which is consistent with the 4th quarter of his son’s and grandson’s arms (along with the fact that the chevron between the three roses does not appear in any subsequent Dennis arms quarterings). Although this doesn’t explain why Johanna Stradlyng’s arms in the Dennis pedigree are different from the Stradling arms, it appears that, even though she may have not been a heraldic heiress, the commissioner of the monumental brass thought that her arms were prestigious enough to replace the Ferre arms found in the 4th quarter of Sir Walter’s father’s arms. For an example of Dennis arms being quartered “unofficially” with those of Anne Berkeley (who was not a heraldic heiress) see: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:DenysArms_SuttonPlace_Surrey.png

> Also, through the Memorials of the Danvers Family book, we can identify most of the inherited arms that are found in the coat of arms of Sir Thomas Stradling.
>
> 1. Stradling 2. Hawey 3. Strongbow 4. Gernon or Garnon 5. Not identified 6. Justyn 7. Turberville 8. Berkerolles

#5 is St Barbe arms, which appear to be different from those of Sir John St Barbe, 1st Baronet (chequy argent and sable)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4f/In_English_Homes_Vol_2_St_Donats_Castle_Glamorgan_painted_chamber_31295007279283_0065.jpg

> In the Memorials of the Danvers Family, it says "Amongst the Glamorganshire deeds is one dated 1452 (Clark, vol. ii., p. 169), a grant of land in Coyty by Edmund Stradling; a note to the deed states that Edmund was son of Sir Edmund, of Winter bourne Dauntesey, son of Sir John Stradling and Joan Dauntesey. The seal attached to the deed quarters 1 and 4 paly of six, a chevron (Stradling), 2 and 3, three bars undy for Dauntesey...The Stradlings seem to have used two coats — the above, but more commonly paly of six on a bend three cinquefoils."

The original source for the information about this seal is in the following book: https://books.google.ca/books?id=OOUuAAAAMAAJ&pg=170
It’d be interesting to compare this seal to that of Sir Edward Stradling (husband of Jane Beaufort), but I wasn’t able to find any examples in the book linked just above. Since through the influence of his father-in-law he was appointed to some positions in Somerset, I wonder if this book might have an example of his seal (should someone have access to it beyond the snippet view): https://books.google.ca/books?newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&id=Rd5AAAAAYAAJ&dq=seal+of+%22sir+william+stradling%22&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=seal+of+stradling)

All the best,

Andrew

[Andrew Z]

On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 6:37:38 AM UTC-4, Andrew Z wrote:
> Any insight on identifying these arms (chevron between three roses) would be welcome.
>

> I also note that the arms of Sir Walter on his monumental brass contain his mother's arms (as per the pedigree) in the 4th quarter

Dear group,

I previously searched (without any success) the Dictionary of British Arms for Stradling arms variations; I recently looked up in the same book a chevron between three roses and those arms from the Olveston Denys monumental brass are included under this heading, but are identified as Russell.
Pg. 342 https://library.oapen.org/viewer/web/viewer.html?file=/bitstream/handle/20.500.12657/31215/634734.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

Russell holders of these arms are found on pg. 343, with the source for the arms of Thomas Russell being Thomas Jenyns's Book, 1410, transcr. O.Barron, [incorporates Jenyns's Ordinary & Jenyns's Roll, collated with BL Add MS 40851] (pg. xxxix)

The source for the information about the Olveston monumental brass is cited as: https://archive.org/details/b29828302/page/154/mode/1up, which in turn cites this book: https://archive.org/details/brassesofglouces00davi/page/106/mode/1up

Neither of these books identify the arms as Russell, so I am not sure how the statement on pg. 342 could be corroborated, but I would imagine it to be credible since the Dictionary of British Arms was prepared on the basis of cards from the College of Arms and edited by heralds.

When I first started looking into the Sir Walter Dennis' mother parentage, I carefully read the previous discussions about its uncertainty and lack of contemporary evidence, but still considered it possible, especially since it seemed to me that the main source attributing illegitimate children to Sir Edward Stradling (husband of Jane Beaufort) was G.T. Clark, whose work I found to be unreliable on this topic. However, after reviewing the heraldic evidence found in the Dennis pedigree, I don't believe that it supports Johanne being a daughter of Sir Edward Stradling (in spite of the caption identifying her as Stradlyng). Sir Walter Dennis died in 1505, with the monumental brass being dated around the same time. I would assume that whoever has commissioned the monumental brass and the pedigree (circa 1520) would not be mistaken about Sir Walter's mother's arms (especially since they are displayed so prominently), which are not those of Sir Edward Stradling.

All the best!

Andrew