Yet Another C.P. Correction: Ela de Warenne's 1st husband, Robert de Newburgh
Douglas Richardson
Complete Peerage, 12 (1) (1953): 500, footnote g (sub Surrey) provides
a list of the children of Hamelin, 5th Earl of Surrey (died 1202), and
his wife, Isabel de Warenne. Besides their son and heir, William de
Warenne. Earl of Surrey, they also had three daughters, including:
"Ela, who married 1stly, Robert de Newburn, of whom nothing is known,
and 2ndly, William Fitz William of Sprotborough" END OF QUOTE
Ela de Warenne, daughter of Earl Hamelin, actually married (1st)
Robert de Newburgh, not Robert de Newburn, as indicated in the recent
book, The Norman Frontier in the Twelfth and Early Thirteenth
Centuries (2004), by Daniel Power. They had no issue. Robert de
Newburgh was living in 1191, but predeceased his father, Henry de
Newburgh, sometime before 1193. The father Henry de Newburgh was a
nephew of Roger, Earl of Warwick (died 1153).
See the following weblink for a pedigree chart of the Newburgh (or
Neubourg) family, including evidence of Ela de Warenne's marriage to
Robert de Newburgh:
Ela de Warenne married (2nd) evidently before c.1200 (as his 2nd wife)
William Fitz William. William Fitz William was previously married to
a woman named Maud, as stated in my book, Plantagenet Ancestry (2004).
I've posted below an account of Ela de Warenne and her two marriages.
My sources are all cited.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
ELA DE WARENNE
1. ELA DE WARENNE. She married (1st) ROBERT DE NEWBURGH (or
NEUBOURG), son and heir apparent of Henry de Newburgh, by his wife,
Margaret. They had no issue. She married (2nd) (as his 2nd wife)
WILLIAM FITZ WILLIAM, of Sprotborough, Yorkshire, and Plumtree,
Nottinghamshire, benefactor of Blythe Priory, son and heir of William
Fitz Godric, by Aubrey, daughter and heiress of Robert de Lisours (or
Lisures). They had two sons, Thomas, Knt., and Roger. He previously
married (1st) MAUD _____. In the period, 1191/c.1200, he confirmed a
gift of his grandfather, Godric, to Byland Abbey, Yorkshire. In 1194
his nephew, Roger de Lacy, Constable of Chester, released to him and
his mother the lands which had belonged to her father, Robert de
Lisours. His wife, Ela, gave five virgates of land in Rottingdean,
Sussex, together with three villains and their sequels to Roche Abbey,
Yorkshire c. 1200. WILLIAM FITZWILLIAM was living 1219, but died
before 23 Feb. 1224. In the period, 1220-1228, his wife, Ela, sued
for dower in several English manors, including Basildon, Berkshire, in
right of her first marriage to Robert de Newburgh. She died before
1240.
References:
Lodge, Peerage of Ireland 2 (1789): 158-181 (sub Fitz-William).
Brydges, Collins' Peerage of England 4 (1812): 374-400 (sub Fitz-
William). Hunter, South Yorkshire 1 (1828): 331-341; 2 (1831): 92-94
(identifies wife as Maud). Foster, Peds. of Fams. of Yorkshire (1874)
(Fitzwilliam pedigree). Hawley et al., Vis. of Essex 1552, 1558,
1570, 1612 & 1634 1 (H.S.P. 13) (1878): 197-199 (1612 Vis.)
(Fitzwilliam pedigree: "Sr William Fitz William Knight, Lord of Ellmyn
sonne and heire. = Ella daugh. and coheire to William Erle Warren.").
Harvey et al. Vis. of Bedfordshire 1566, 1582, 1634 & 1669 (H.S.P. 19)
(1884): 27-29 (1566 Vis.) (Fitzwilliam pedigree: "Sir Will'm
ffitzwill'm of Emley K. sonne and heire. = [Ella-Harl. Ms. 5867]
daughter of [William-Harl. Ms. 5867] Erle Warren."). Ancestor 12
(1905): 111-117. W. Baildon, Baildon and the Baildons 1 (1912): 350-
352. Clay, Extinct & Dormant Peerages (1913): 76-78 (sub Fitz-
william) (no mention of wife Ela). Early Yorkshire Charters 3 (1916):
134-135, 8 (1949): 18-21. Salzman, Chartulary of the Priory of St.
Peter at Sele (1923): xix, 34-35. C.P. 5 (1926): 518-520 (sub
FitzWilliam); 12(1) (1953): 500, footnote g (sub Surrey). Harvey et
al., Vis. of the North 3 (Surtees Soc. 144) (1930): 74-76 (Fitzwilliam
pedigree: "Fitzwilliam = filia Comitis Waren"). Hatton, Book of Seals
(1950): 322-323. C.R.R. 9 (1952): 300; 348; 13 (1959): no. 705.
Timson, Cartulary of Blyth Priory 1 (Thoroton Soc. Recs. 27) (1973):
xxxv, 132-133, 183-184. Power, The Norman Frontier in the Twelfth and
Early Thirteenth Centuries (2004): 511-512 (Neubourg pedigree).
mj...@btinternet.com
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> Complete Peerage, 12 (1) (1953): 500, footnote g (sub Surrey) provides
> a list of the children of Hamelin, 5th Earl of Surrey (died 1202), and
> his wife, Isabel de Warenne. Besides their son and heir, William de
> Warenne. Earl of Surrey, they also had three daughters, including:
>
> "Ela, who married 1stly, Robert de Newburn, of whom nothing is known,
> and 2ndly, William Fitz William of Sprotborough" END OF QUOTE
>
> Ela de Warenne, daughter of Earl Hamelin, actually married (1st)
> Robert de Newburgh, not Robert de Newburn, as indicated in the recent
> book, The Norman Frontier in the Twelfth and Early Thirteenth
> Centuries (2004), by Daniel Power.
Dear Douglas
Thank you for your good post. I see this is also yet another
correction to "Plantagenet Ancestry" (D. Richardson, Genealogical
Publishing Company, 2004), p 330 which states:
"Ela de Warenne. She married (1st) Robert de Newburn" END OF QUOTE
I understand the original source of this is likely to be Ela's charter
to Roche Abbey, quoted in Early Yorkshire Charters as:
"Gift of Ela daughter of Hamelin, Earl de Warenne, widow and Robert de
Newburn' and William Fitz William, to Roche Abbey of 5 virgates of
land in Rottingdean"; I think this is the reference cited as "Early
Yorkshire Charters 8 (1949): 18-21" in the jumbled catalogue at the
end of your post.
>See the following weblink for a pedigree chart of the Newburgh (or
>Neubourg) family, including evidence of Ela de Warenne's marriage to
>Robert de Newburgh:
>http://books.google.com/books?id=JlfPXSFhrn4C&pg=PP1&ots=TenPDJ_8pp&d...
This is a limited preview book of 646 pages. Could I trouble you to
cite a page number for your statement that the author provides
"evidence", or even suggest you detail the evidence itself?
Unfortunately, none of the three pages on which, according to the
index, "Robert de Neuburg" is mentioned, is included within the
limited preview.
Best wishes, Michael
mj...@btinternet.com
> Unfortunately, none of the three pages on which, according to the
> index, "Robert de Neuburg" is mentioned,
Recte: Robert de *Neubourg*
MA-R
John P. Ravilious
The ref. to Power, The Norman Frontier can be seen on p. 512 (a
query "Neubourg Warenne" will likely bring this up). The text I can
see reads, in part:
" Ela and William had already exchanged her dower rights in
Radepont with King John, where Robert (II) du Neubourg and his wife
'Ala' had previously made gifts (Rot. Lib., 18; ADE, II 1230; Le
Prevost 1862-9, i, 402-3). EYC, viii, 20-1, and no. 96 (a late
thirteenth-century copy), shows that William fitz William's wife Ela
was a daughter of Isabella de Warenne by Hamelin, illegitimate brother
of King Henry II, and calls her the widow of an otherwise unknown
Robert de Neuburn, who must in fact have been Robert II du Neubourg."
Cheers,
John
Douglas Richardson
There is further information on Robert de Newburgh (1st husband of Ela
de Warenne) and his father, Henry de Newburgh, in VCH Berkshire, 3
(1923): 457-463, as quoted below:
"A younger branch of the Newburgh family held the manor circa 1180,
when Henry the son of Robert of Newburgh and grandson of the Earl of
Warwick, together with his son Robert, gave to Richard de Vernon and
his heirs, in exchange for his land at Radepont in Eure, a moiety of
Basildon and a moiety of Ashampstead (q.v.), with the 'messuage of
Ashampstede' and the land of William de Puteo there; all to be held by
service of half a knight's fee. (fn. 34) From the later records it
may be inferred that these two moieties, subsequently known as a whole
manor, were the southern portion of the estate."
"No record of the moieties of Basildon and Ashampstead retained by
Henry of Newburgh appears until 1278-9, when they are described as
manors held by Gilbert le Fraunceis. (fn. 103) After Gilbert's death
William de Garlaund, king's yeoman, had in 1280 a grant of the custody
of his lands during the minority of the heirs. (fn. 104) Gilbert's
successor was probably Ralph de Knyveton, who held Basildon in 1316,
(fn. 105) but on 10 May of the same year free warren in Basildon and
Ashampstead was granted to John de la Beche, (fn. 106) whose lands are
afterwards described as of the inheritance of Ralph de Knyveton. (fn.
107) It may be assumed that this was the northern portion of the two
townships, adjacent to Beche Castle in Aldworth. Descending in the
family of de la Beche, (fn. 108) it passed with their manor of
Bradfield (q.v.) to the Langfords and Staffords."
Footnote 34: MSS. of Duke of Rutland (Hist. MSS. Com.), iv, 21.
For interest's sake, the following is a list ot the numerous 17th
Century New World immigrants that descend from Ela de Warenne and her
second husband, William Fitz Wiliam. The list includes Dorothy
Beresford (wife of Major John Brodnax, of Virginia) and Margaret
Touteville (wife of Rev. Thomas Shepard of Mass.), for whom royal
connections in their ancestries were found recent time. With the
exception of these two ladies, the descents from Ela de Warenne down
to the individual colonists can be found in Douglas Richardson,
Plantagenet Ancestry (2004).
Elizabeth Alsop, William Asfordby, Dorothy Beresford, William Bladen,
George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Mary Bourchier, Edward Carleton, James &
Norton Claypoole, Francis Dade, William Farrar, Anne, Elizabeth & John
Mansfield, Anne Mauleverer, Richard Palgrave, George Reade, Richard
Saltonstall, William Skepper, Diana & Grey Skipwith, Mary Johanna
Somerset, Margaret Touteville, Thomas Wingfield.
mj...@btinternet.com
> Dear Michael,
>
> The ref. to Power, The Norman Frontier can be seen on p. 512 (a
> query "Neubourg Warenne" will likely bring this up).
Many thanks for that, John. Unfortunately, this is another problem
with Google Books: it is inconsistent in different jurisdictions as to
what it brings up. Pages 480 to 531 are not part of the preview here;
I have not been able to access Profixy to see whether this will
overcome the limitation. Yet another reason why bare links to Google
books search results often defy the intented helpfulness of those who
post them.
I appreciate your having taken the trouble to summarise the evidence
presented - very useful.
Best wishes, Michael
Rosie Bevan
did not realise it was new to the newsgroup and Fitzwilliam
researchers.
The charter which outlines Ela's marriages is given in EYC VIII, no.
96
"96 Gift by Ela daughter of Hamelin earl of Warenne, widow of Robert
of Newburn' and William fitzWilliam, to Roche abbey of 5 virgates of
land in Rottingdean [Sussex], together with 3 or 5 virgates of land in
Rottingdean [Sussex], together with 3 villein and their sequels [1219
-40]
Omnibus sancte matris ecclesie filiis presentibus et futuris Ela filia
Hamelini comitis Warennie uxor Willelmi filii Willelmi salutem in
Domino. Noverit universitas vestra quod ego in viduitate mea et in
ligia potestate corporis mei dedi concessi et hac presenti carta
confirmavi ecclesie sancte Marie de Rupa pro salute mea et Willelmi
filii Willelmi quondam viri mei et Roberti de Neuburn' primi viri mei
patris et matris filiorum et filiarum mearum et omnium antecessorum et
successorum meorum quinque virgatas terre in villa de Rottingeden' cum
omnibus libertatibus et aisianentis ad dictam terram pertinentibus,
scilicet duas virgatas terre quas robertus filius alexandri tenuit et
ipsum robertum cum tota seqela sua et cum omnibus consuetudinibus ad
illas duas virgatas terre pertinentibus, et duas virgatas terre quas
Aldwinus del Pit tenuit et ipsum Aldwinum cum tota sequela sua et cum
omnibus consuetudinibus ad illas duas virgatas terre pertinentibus, et
unam virgatam terre quam Ediua filia Harding tenuit et ipsam Ediuam
cum tota sequela sua et cum omnibus consuetudinibus ad illam virgatam
terre pertinentibus. Hec omnia dedi ego Ela abbatie de Rupa in puram
et perpetuam elimosinam liberam et quietam ab omni servicio
consuetudine exactione et demanda. Et ego et heredes mei
watantizabimus omnia predicta ecclesie contra omnes. Hiis t[estibus] "
Ela's charter was confirmed by William earl of Warenne in which he
refers to dame Ela de Warenne as his sister [Charter 97]. Ela had at
least one child by William fitz William, for William, sixth earl of
Warenne issued a charter to Roger fitz William, whom he descibed as
his nephew. Ela makes reference to sons and daughters, which must
have been by William, for she does not appear to have had any children
by Robert de Newburgh, as Robert's brother, Henry de Newburgh was his
heir. In 1220 she had difficulty claiming her dower because he was
overseas with Henry III, and could not be called to warrant. With her
husband, William fitz William fitz Godric she sued for dower in
Cottesmore, Rutland, Batlesden, Berkshire and in Stokes,
Herefordshire.
Curia Regis Rolls, vol. IX 1220, p.300
"Rotel. Willielmus filius Willelmi filii Godrici et Ela exor ejus per
attornatum suum petunt verus Willelmum de Gamages terciam partem
medietatis ville de Cotesmor' cum pertinentiis ut dotem ipsius Ele,
unde Robertus de Novo Burgo quondam vir suus etc. Et Willelmus venit
et non vult ei respondere sine waranto suo de dote sua, nisi curia
consideraverit. Et ipsi dicunt quod heres domini sui Roberti de Novo
Bergo est in transmarinis partibus, et nesciunt quis sit ille; set
ipsa, quando terra de Normannia amissa fuit, venit in Angliam et
nunquam postea exivit; et ideo petit judicium si debeat dotem
amittere. Et Willelmus dicit quod Henricus de Novo Burgo frater ipsius
Roberti est warrantus et in Normannia: et Willelmus et Ela hoc non
dedixerunt. Et ideo sine die quosque terre communes fuerint : et tunc,
si voluerint, veniant et resummoneatur loquela."
>From this suit it can be seen that Henry de Newburgh is referred to as
Robert's brother, therefore Robert should be identified as son of
Waleran de Newburgh, probably by his wife Alice Harcourt, not son of
Henry de Newburgh and Margaret as posted by Mr Richardson above. That
Waleran had more than one daughter by Alice, at his death in 1203 is
shown when she proffered the king 1000 marks to remain a widow and
have custody of her children by the Earl [CP XII/2 p. 364 note (b)]
In 2004 I wrote an article correcting the Complete Peerage version of
this family entitled "A realignment of the 12th and 13th century
pedigree of the earls of Warwick - Complete Peerage correction
[Foundations, vol.1, no.3 January 2004, pp.194-97]. With the corrected
pedigree in mind I would place Robert thus:
1.Waleran de Newburgh
+ Margery/Margaret d'Oilly dau of Henry d'Oilly and Maud de Bohun
2.Henry de Newburgh
+ Philippa Basset, dau. Thomas Basset
3. Thomas de Newburgh
3.Margery de Newburgh
+ Alice de Harcourt, dau Robert Harcourt
2. Robert de Newburgh
+ Ela de Warenne
2. Alice de Newburgh
+ William de Mauduit
Cheers
Rosie
Rosie Bevan
did not realise it was new to the newsgroup and Fitzwilliam
Waleran had more than one daughter by Alice, at his death in 1203 she
proffered the king 1000 marks to remain a widow and have custody of
her children by the Earl [CP XII/2 p. 364 note (b)]
In 2004 I wrote an article correcting the Complete Peerage version of
this family entitled "A realignment of the 12th and 13th century
pedigree of the earls of Warwick - Complete Peerage correction
[Foundations, vol.1, no.3 January 2004, pp.194-97]. With the corrected
pedigree in mind I would place Robert thus:
1.Waleran de Newburgh
+ Margery/Margaret d'Oilly dau of Henry d'Oilly and Maud de Bohun
2.Henry de Newburgh
+ Philippa Basset, dau. Thomas Basset
3. Thomas de Newburgh
3.Margery de Newburgh
+ Alice de Harcourt, dau Robert Harcourt
2. Robert de Newburgh
+ Ela de Warenne
2. Alice de Newburgh
+ William de Mauduit
Cheers
Rosie
John P. Ravilious
Many thanks (again) for the charter text from EYC, and also the
details aiding in the identification of Robert de Newburgh.
Interestingly, it appears that Robert de Newburgh and Ela de Warenne
required a dispensation to marry or remain in marriage, as they were
related in the 3rd and 3rd degree of consanguinity (common descent
from William de Warenne and Isabel of Vermandois, their great-
grandparents).
On the subject of the parentage of Thomas fitz William, I see
there has been extended discussion of the tenure of Emley and its
descent to the FitzWilliams. What little I can obtain from EYC is on
p. 21, "The Warenne Family", and in an addendum on p. 237, "A Note on
Emley" (volume not determined - I assume vol. VIII ?). Margaret Faull
(West Yorkshire, p. 366) stated that "Farrer suggested that William
son of Godric held Emley in the late twelfth century, a view shared by
Sir Charles Clay."
A. S. Ellis (YAJ VII:128, note 55) wrote in part re: Emley,
' In Domesday Book, "Ameleia", 3 carucates in the soke of king
Edward's lordship of Wakefiled, which was retained by the crown in
1086, but shortly afterwards granted with its privileges to William de
Warenne, earl of Surrey and lord of Conisburgh. There are no further
particulars about Emley, and the names of those who held the land are
not given, but this place was the original patrimony of the family of
Fitzwilliam, and there can be no doubt had descended to them from the
days of king Edward the Confessor, when a Godric lived who had been a
great landowner hereabout and in Notts. '
I'm not sure why 'there can be no doubt' on this point, or
Whether anything else in EYC bears on the parentage of Thomas
FitzWilliam. The fact that his younger brother Roger was a nephew of
William de Warenne, and that there were other children of William fitz
William and Ela de Warenne besides Roger, tends to reinforce the
inclination that Thomas PROBABLY was the son of Ela de Warenne.
Cheers,
John