Wife of Gabriel of Melitene
loren...@merck.com
was a daughter of Constantine son of Roupen of Cilicia.Does anyone
know of any source that would allude to or mention such a possibility?
Thanks: Loren Varga
Chuck Owens
by Aziz Suryal Atiya, mentioned the following: “Baldwin married
Morfia, daughter of the Armenian Prince Gabriel of Edessa; and a
daughter of Constantine I (1095-1099).” I'm not sure what source he
used for Gabriel's wife as a daughter of Constantine I or its
reliability.
Chuck Owens
wjhonson
The sources for making Baldwin's wife, a daughter of "Gabriel" are
listed here.
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/JERUSALEM.htm#BaudouinIIB
Will Johnson
John P. Ravilious
==================
Dear Loren, Chuck, Will, et al.,
This at once reaches into both an area largely inaccessible to
Western readers, and a topic of widespread interest given the many
descents from Morphia and her wife Baldwin II of Edessa/Jerusalem.
Count Rüdt-Collenberg may have provided the the best (if inexact)
information as to the connections of Gabriel of Melitene, under the
heading, ' Members of the Royal Family whose exact filiation is yet
unknown ' where he gives the following chart [1]:
HETHUM
________I____________
I I
CONSTANTINE THOROS {brothers} GABRIEL
Lord of Lord of { -in-law} /Greek
Gargar Melitene orth/
+ 1117 /-1070/ Lord of
I Lord of Melitene
I Edessa 1087-1103
I 1094 I
I +1098 III.9 I
I = N. I
I +aft. 1098 I
__I_____ ____I____ ______I___
I I I I I I
MICHAEL adopted MORPHIA
Lord of son: eng. to
Gargar Baudouin Boemund of
de Boulogne Antiochia
/later Baudouin /ca. 1000/
I. King of = 1102
Jerusalem/ Baudouin
du Bourg
/later Baudouin
II King of
Jerusalem/
It would put us at least a little further ahead if Gabriel of
Melitene could be shown to have married a sister of Thoros, making
them brothers-in-law as noted above. This evidently is not certain;
even if this could be established, we still may not know whether such
a spouse was the mother of Morphia.
Cheers,
John
NOTES
[1] Count H. W. Rüdt-Collenberg, The Rupenides, Hethumides and
Lusignans: The Structure of the Armeno-Cilician Dynasties (Paris:
Librairie C. Klincksieck, 01963), p. 78.
wjho...@aol.com
http://books.google.com/books?id=uDj9sNezWzEC&lpg=PA320&ots=WIis1BG5LT&pg=PA320#v=onepage&q=&f=false
"After the experience of his son-in-law Thoros of Edessa, Gabriel was unwilling to appeal to Baldwin...."
Will
wjho...@aol.com
Fascinating. Look what I found
http://books.google.com/books?id=1cKlL1vjqTwC&pg=PA233&dq=gabriel+melitene&client=firefox-a#v=onepage&q=&f=false
==================
Cheers,
John
NOTES
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John P. Ravilious
> John, is not Thoros called "son-in-law" of Gabriel, not "brother-inlaw"?
>
> "After the experience of his son-in-law Thoros of Edessa, Gabriel was unwilling to appeal to Baldwin...."
>
> Will
Dear Will,
True enough. But, based on what? This is from Runciman, a far
better historian than most - but on what account does he call Gabriel
son-in-law of Thoros? With the example of Runciman's placement of
Baldwin II of Jerusalem in relation to Godfrey of Bouillon, I wouldn't
race to accept his Armenian 'solution'.
Cheers,
John
John P. Ravilious
> Fascinating. Look what I foundhttp://books.google.com/books?id=1cKlL1vjqTwC&pg=PA233&dq=gabriel+mel...
> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
>
> - Show quoted text -
Dear Will,
Fascinating indeed. Thanks for that.
The one genealogical element I note, evidently Gabriel's wife was
still alive and in the citadel of Melitene at the time of his
execution by the Turks (p. 237). Pity the author did not bother to
name her - irrevelant to the story, I suppose.
Cheers,
John
wjho...@aol.com
I was updating the Wikipedia article on Gabriel and questioning that he really died in 1103 as no useful source was cited. That's how I happened to fall on this primary source telling us he died apparently in 1102 or maybe 1103. So I added that to the article.
The author here really hates Gabriel, several times calling him names.
Will
Leo
Have a look at the biography I have for him on my website. It may explain
why he was disliked. Perhaps his end was fitting. I think he may have died
in 1101 or 1102.
Leo
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Subject: Re: Wife of Gabriel of Melitene
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M.Sjostrom
there's a clear chronological unlikelihood for Morphia's biological mother to been able to be daughter of that Konstantin, son of Rupen.
Morphia was old enough to marry in c1101.
Moreover, Morphia had seemingly a sister (if that was not actually Morphia herself) who was already married with Thoros of Edessa before 1098.
On the other hand, the career dates of the two attested sons of Konstantin son of Rupen, namely the Armenian rulers in Cilicia Thoros and Levon, indicate that they rather were of the same generation as Morphia, than her uncles.
The estimate that it was c1090 when Konstantin became ruler of their lordship after his father Rupen, speaks for Konstantin not being old enough to have fathered a daughter who must have herself had daughters old enough to marry in around 1100.
-----
all in all, the entire suggestion that Morphia's mother would have been daughter of Konstantin son of Rupen, already rests seemingly solely upon some wishful thinking, and not at all upon any contemporary explicit testimony.
the facts of chronology etc, which seem to speak against that paternity, then demolish the already-shaky guess, wishful thinking.
M.Sjostrom
dear John,
is that opus by R�dt-Collenberg, genealogically reliable? really?
Namely, as I had an occasion recently to observe, see
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00299619&tree=LEO
that source,
Count H. W. R�dt-Collenberg, The Rupenides, Hethumides and
Lusignans: The Structure of the Armeno-Cilician Dynasties (Paris:
Librairie C. Klincksieck, 01963)
is mentioned by Leo as source of the Genealogics entry about king Davit 'narin', ruler of Abkhazia and Imeretia and 'co-king' of the Kartvelian country.
And (apparently on basis of this source), there is the unwarranted filiation,
as presented in the following:
---------------
Family NN Palaiologina
Children
1.. Wakhtang II, King of Georgia
> 2. Michael of Georgia
> 3. Demetrius II, King of Georgia 1273-1289, b. 1262
Last Modified 15 Feb 2003
---------------
namely, that it was king Davit 'narin' (d 1293) who would have been the father of 'Demetrius II, king of Georgia 1273-1289' - and Davit 'narin' to have his children by his 'Palaiologina' wife.
and this is really a boggled genealogy.
It should be well known that king Demetre II was not son of king Davit 'narin'. Demetre II's official paternal filiation (to king Davit VII 'Ulu') is fairly well presented in chronicle material about that cuntry, and really, there is no even near-contemporary testimony that Demetre II would haven been son of Davit 'narin'.
Moreover, it is questionable whether Davit 'narin' had any surviving children with that Palaiologina one of his several wives.
If that filiation, that 'Demetrius II' were son of Dsvit 'narin', comes from R�dt-Collenberg, then R�dt-Collenberg is sadly deficient in its genealogical information. Even sadder that Runciman.
(Runciman only made a somewhat unlucky reconstruction of an undefined kinship, whereas the Demetre II-Davit 'Narin' filiation is outright boggled.)
loren...@merck.com
of Gabriel.Quoting primary sources of the time. It makes me wonder
about R.Collenberg's tome that he did not check such relevant sources
as those to determine the exact relationship between Gabriel and
Thoros. Which would bring me back to my original question,was the word
employed brother in law (beau frere) or father in law (beau pere)?
Loren
WJho...@aol.com
loren...@merck.com writes:
You have to read the material and note what source is cited. And then try
to find that source. I would suggest that the actual, original source is
probably written in Latin, not in French. It's likely however that there's an
English translation.
Will
Chuck Owens
> > Thoros. Which would bring me back to my original question,was the word
> > employed brother in law (beau frere) or father in law (beau pere)?
> > Loren>>
>
Loren,
The source, which is undoubtedly a translation of the original
Armenian text into French, Chronique de Matthieu d'Édesse [962-1136]
Continuée par Grégoire le prêtre [jusqu'en 1162: D'après trois
manuscrits de la Bibliothèque impériale de Paris],1858, pages 211-212,
states "beau-père de Thoros". See below:
"CXLIX. En l'année 545 (26 février 1096-24 février 1097), le sulthan
d'Occident Kilidj-Arslan, fils de Soliman, fils de Koutoulmisch, ayant
réuni des forces considérables, marcha contre Mélitène. Son armée
couvrait au loin les plaines. Il attaqua vivement cette ville, et avec
ses batistes incommodait beaucoup les habitants. Cependant le
commandant de Mélitène, nommé Khouril (1), beau-père de Thoros,
Curopalate d'Edesse, résista bravement et se fortifia de tous côtés.
Le siège se prolongea longtemps, mais sans succès pour Kilidj-Arslan,
qui retourna tout honteux dans ses États."
If you really want to pursue what the original word or words in
Armenian were, try google searching "Մատթեոս Ուռհայեցի", "Matthew of
Edessa" in Armenian to see what the original Armenian text said.
Chuck