ANCESTRY OF CHARLEMAGNE: KING OF FRANKS, EMPEROR OF HOLY ROMAN EMPIRE
~Bret, scion of Charle de Magne
Generation One
Clovis, a Ripuarian Frank who was the King of Cologne circa 420 AD.
Frankish "kings" at this time were really just local tribal
chieftains.
fl. ca. 420 (flourished circa 420)
Clovis had a son:
• Childebert
Generation Two
Childebert who was a the King of Cologne circa 450 A.D.
fl. ca. 450
Childebert had a son:
• Siegbert
Generation Three
Siegbert the Lame who was the King of Cologne.
Murdered in 509
Seigbert was murdered by his son:
• Cloderic
Generation Four
Cloderic the Parricide who was briefly the King of Cologne. Cloderic
murdered his father in 509, and was himself murdered the same year by
Clovis I, the founder of the Merovingian Dynasty.
Cloderic married a kinswoman of Clothilda, the Burgundian Princess and
wife of Clovis I. They had a son:
• Murideric
Generation Five
Murideric, Lord of Vitrey
Murideric was "very young" in 509 when his father was murdered by
Clovis I.
Murideric revolted against Thierry (I), a son of Clovis (I), who
killed him.
Murideric married Perthois and they had the following sons:
• St. Gondulfus
• Duke Bodegisil (I) who died in 581. Bodigisil married first to
Palatina, a daughter of Gallus Magnus, a Gallo-Roman Senator and
Bishop of Troyes (elected 562). Bodigisil married second to Sancha, a
Gascow.
Generation Six
St. Gondulfus
Born in 524
Died on July 6, 607.
St. Gondulfus was Bishop of Tongres (consecrated in 599), Governor of
Marseilles in 581 and Mayor of the Palace to Theibert (I).
St. Gondulfus is almost certainly the father of Duke Bodegisil (II);
see F.L. Weis, Ancestral Roots, Baltimore, 1999, 190-6. Other earlier
works including George Andrews Moriarty: The Plantagenet Ancestry of
King Edward III and Queen Philippa, Mormon Pioneer Genealogical
Society, Salt Lake City, Utah, 1985, pages 5 and 241, show St.
Gondulfus' brother Duke Bodegisil (I) as the father of Duke Bodegisil
(II).
While it may seem strange to us to-day for a "saint" and a "bishop" to
have had children, this was not the case in early mediæval times.
Married clergy were the rule rather than the exception until Gregorian
reforms of the 11th century. By the late middle ages, there were
virtually no married clergy.
St. Gondulfus was a political figure; he was Governor of Marseilles
and Mayor of the Palace and was not consecrated until quite an old man
in 599. As well, it was very unusual among the early Franks for a son
to have the same name as his father as would be the case if Bodegisil
(I) had been the father of Bodegisil (II). The same name was used to
indicate a close kinship such as the uncle and nephew relationship
here.
St. Gondulfus had a son:
• Duke Bodegisil (II)
Generation Seven
Duke Bodegisil (II) was the Governor of Aquitane.
Killed in 588
Duke Bodegisil (II) married Oda, a Suevian and they had a son:
• Arnoself
Generation Eight
St. Arnoself of Metz was the Bishop of Metz and is also known as
Arnold, Arnulf and Arnuiph.
He was a member of the court of the Frankish king Theodebert (II) of
Austrasia. A noble, Arnoself married Doda, and their son was
Ansegisel. Doda became a nun, and Arnulf made plans to enter a
monastery but was named the bishop of Metz around 616. He continued
his court services, making Clotaire of Neustria the king of Austrasia.
He also served as counsellor to Dagobert, King Clotaire's son. In 626,
Arnulf retired to a hermitage at Remiremont, France. His feastday is
July 18.
Born in 582
Died on August 16, 641
St. Arnoself married Clothilde (Doda) who became a nun at Trèves in
612
St. Arnoself and Clothilde had a son:
• Ansigise
Generation Nine
Duke Ansigise who was Mayor of the Palace in Austrasia in 632 and is
also known as Anchises, Ansegisel and Ansegilius.
Born circa 602
Died (murdered) in 685
Married: St. Bégue or Begga, daughter of Pépin the Old of Landen who
was Mayor of the Palace of Austrasia in 623 and a counsellor of
Dagobert (I), King of Austrasia. St. Bégue's mother was St. Itta, said
to be a daughter of Arnoldus, Bishop of Metz, said to be a son of
Ansbertus, the Gallo-Roman Senator and his wife Blithilda. On the
death of her husband in the year 691, St. Bégue built a church and
convent at Andenne on the Meuse River and died there. Her feast day is
December 17th.
Duke Ansigise and St. Bégue had a son:
• Pépin
Generation Ten
Pépin of Heristal who was Mayor of the Palace in Austrasia.
Born circa 635
Died on December 16, 714
Pépin married first to Plectrud, a daughter of Hugobert and Irmina,
and they had the following sons:
• Drogo, Duke of Champagne
• Grimoald (II), Mayor of the Palace of Austrasia
Pépin was associated with Aupais (Aupaïs, Elphide or Chalpaida?) who
is said to have been be a concubine. Historically, this referred to a
secondary or inferior wife and may help explain why some sources claim
that Pépin and Aupais were married. They had a son:
• Charles Martel
Generation Eleven
Charles "The Hammer" Martel who was the Mayor of the Palace in
Austrasia, and as such, was the virtual ruler of France. Please click
on Charles Martel for further details.
Born in 676
Died on October 22, 741
Charles Martel married first to Rotrou or Chrotrud who was perhaps a
daughter of St. Liévin, Bishop of Trèves. Charles and Rotrou had the
following children:
• Carloman who ruled Neustria, Burgundy and Provence as Mayor of the
Palace from 741 until 747 when he retired from political life and
became a monk at the Monastery of Monte Casino. He was succeeded by
his younger brother Pepin the Short.
• Landrée who married Count Sigrand
• Jerome
• Pépin the Short
Charles Martel married second to Swanhilde or Sunnichilde, daughter of
Theodebert, Duke of Bavaria and they had the following children:
• Grifo, who was endowed with a portion of his father's land, but was
displaced and imprisoned by his half brothers Carloman and Pépin the
Short.
• Chiltrud, who married in 749 to Odilo, Duke of Bavaria. In 757,
their son Duke Tassilo III of Bavaria the magnates of Bavaria
acknowledged themselves as vassals of Pépin the Short.
Generation Twelve
Pépin the Short, King of the Franks who was Mayor of the Palace in
Austrasia and who had himself declared King of the Franks in 751.
Please click on Pépin the Short for further details.
Born circa 715
Died on September 24, 768
Pépin the Short married in 740 to Bertha or Bertrada II of Laon also
known as "Bertha Broadfoot". She was the daughter of Caribert (or
Herbert), Count of Laon and granddaughter of Bertha, a Merovingian
Princess who was in turn a daughter of Thierry (III), King of
Austrasia, Neustria and Burgundy.
(George Andrews Moriarty: Plantagenet Ancestry Salt Lake City, Utah,
1985, page 232)
Please click on Bertha for this line.
Some sources, eg. World Book 2000, © 1999 IBM Corporation, suggest
that Bertrada or Bertha was known as "Queen Goose-Foot" or "Goose-
Footed Bertha", and is the original “Mother Goose”. Hence, we can
also list “Mother Goose” among our illustrious forebears.
Pépin the Short and Bertha of Laon had the following children:
• Charlemagne, Emperor of the West
• Carloman of the Franks, King of Franks, born about 751, died in 771
• Gisela, Abbess of Chelles, who had a son Rowland, who had a
daughter Juliana who married her first cousin once removed,Charles the
younger, Duke of Ingelheim who was a son of Charlemagne.
• Pippin who died young
Generation Thirteen
Charlemagne, Emperor of the West ruled jointly with his younger
brother Carloman from 768 until 771, at which time Carloman died.
Charlemagne greatly extended his empire, and was crowned emperor by
Pope Leo III on December 25, 800. Charlemagne was predeceased by two
of his sons, and was succeeded by his sole surviving son, Louis the
Pious. Click on Charlemagne for further details.
Born on April 2, 742 at either Ingolheim or Aachen (Aix-la-Chapelle)
Died on January 28, 814 at Aachen
Charlemagne married in 771 at Aachen to Hildegarde of Vinzgau, and
they had the following children:
• Pépin (I), King of Italy
• Charles the younger, Duke of Ingelheim, born 772 and died 811
before his father. Charles married Juliana, who was his first cousin
once removed.
• Louis (I) the Pious of Aquitaine, King of France, whose 7X great
granddaughter Mathilda of Flanders married in 1053 to William the
Conqueror. Please click on Mathilda for this descent.
Charlemagne had additional wives, an abundance of girlfriends and many
more children.
Charlemagne (Karolus Magnus, Charles the Great, Karl der Große)
King of the Franks, 768-814.
King of the Langobards, 774-814.
Emperor, 800-814.
Known as Charles (Latin Carolus, Karolus) during his own life, the
form "Charlemagne" by which he is commonly known in English and French
does not appear until the beginning of the twelfth century [See
Settipani (1993), 191, n. 2]. On 9 October 768, shortly after the
death of his father, king Pépin, he was named as joint king of the
Franks along with his brother Carloman ["..., et rex Pippinus
defunctus est in 8. Cal. Octobr. et Karlus et Karlomannus ad reges
uncti sunt 7 Id. Octobris" Ann. S. Amandi, s.a. 768, MGH SS 1: 12;
similarly in Annales Petaviani, s.a. 768, MGH SS 1: 13], and he
reunited his father's possessions after Carloman's death on 4 December
771 [Annales Sancti Amandi, s.a. 771, MGH SS 1: 12]. In 774, he became
king of the Langobards after the capture of king Desiderius and his
wife and daughter [Annales Sancti Amandi, s.a. 774, MGH SS 1: 12;
Annales Laubacensis, s.a. 774, MGH SS 1: 13], a kingdom which included
northern Italy (but not southern Italy). On 25 December 800, Charles
was crowned as Emperor by the Pope, becoming the first emperor in the
west since the fifth century ["Ipsa die sacratissima natalis Domini,
cum rex ad missam ante confessionem beati Petri apostoli ab oratione
surgeret, Leo papa coronam capiti eius imposuit, et a cuncto Romanorum
populo adclamatum est: 'Carolo augusto, a Deo coronato magno et
pacifico imperatori Romanorum, vita et victoria!' Et post laudes ab
apostolico more antiquorum principum adoratus est atque ablato
patricii nomine imperator et augustus est appellatus." ARF, s.a. 801,
112; the year begins on Christmas in these annals, which is why the
event appears under the year 801 in the reckoning of the annals]. With
his two elder sons, Charles and Pépin, having predeceased him, he was
succeeded by his third son Louis ("the Pious"), who succeeded to all
but (northern) Italy, which had already been given given to Pépin's
son Bernard.
The birth date of 2 April is based on an early ninth century
manuscript at Lorsch [see Settipani (1993), 191, n. 3, and sources
cited there], and the year is given as 747 in Annales Petaviani [MGH
SS 1: 11]. The birth year of 742 which is often given is based on his
stated age at death (see below), but it is very unlikely that he was
born before his parent's marriage in 744. Settipani would place the
event in 748, based on the fact that the early source for the year
747, the Annales Petaviani, mentions the departure of Carloman
(Pépin's brother) to Rome in the preceding (and only other) entry for
the same year, and that Carloman had still not departed on 15 August
747. However, this is not conclusive, since entries in the annals were
not always made in chronological order. [See Settipani (1993), 191-2,
n. 3 for further discussion.]
On death: ["Domnus Karolus imperator, dum Aquisgrani hiemaret, anno
aetatis circiter septuagesimo primo, regni autem quadragesimo septimo
subactaeque Italiae quadragesimo tertio, ex quo vero imperator et
augustus appellatus est, anno XIIII., V. Kal. Febr. rebus humanis
excessit." ARF, s.a. 814, 140]
Father: Pépin "le Bref", d. 24 September 768, king of the Franks.
["..., et rex Pippinus defunctus est in 8. Cal. Octobr. et Karlus et
Karlomannus ad reges uncti sunt 7 Id. Octobris" Ann. S. Amandi, s.a.
768, MGH SS 1: 12; similarly in Annales Petaviani, s.a. 768, MGH SS 1:
13]
Mother: Berthe, d. 8 June or 12?13 July 783
["Bertha obiit [6 Id Iun.]" Annales Laureshamenses, MGH SS 1: 32;
"Berta obiit 6. Idus Iunii." Chronicon Moissiacense, s.a. 783, MGH SS
1: 297; "... et Bertrada regina 3. Idus Iulii in Cauciaco defuncts
est, mater Karoli." Annales Sancti Amandi, MGH SS 1: 12; "Eodem anno
defuncta est bonae memoriae mater regis Berhtrada IIII. Id. Iul." ARF,
s.a. 783, 67]
On Hildegarde: second marriage, m. 771 before 30 April, Hildegarde,
d. in Saxony, 30 April 783 ["Tunc obiit domna ac bene merita
Hildegardis regina pridie Kal. Mai., quod evenit in die tunc in
tempore vigilia ascensionis Domini" ARF, s.a. 783, 64; buried at Metz:
MGH SS 1: 70, 164], sister of count Gerold [De Geroldo comite (Ex
visione Wetini monachi Augiensis), RHF 5: 399; "... Hildigardae
reginae, ... Geroldo comite, germano praedictae reginae", Ratperti
Casus S. Galli, MGH SS 2: 64], and a descendant of the Alemannian duke
Gottfried ["Quicum in iuventute erat, supradictus imperator
desponsavit sibi nobilissimi generis Suavorum puellam, nomine
Hildigardam, quae erat de cognatione Gotefridi ducis Alamannorum.
Gotefridus dux genuit Huochingum, Huochingus genuit Nebi; Nebe genuit
Immam, Imma vero genuit Hiltigardam beatissimum reginam." Thegan, Vita
Hludowici, c. 2, MGH SS 2: 591].
On Charlemagne’s family: addition to numerous sources which give
additional details, there are two contemporary sources which provide
detailed outlines of Charlemgane's family. The earlier one, a history
of the bishops of Metz by Paul Warnefrid (better known as Paul the
Deacon), was written ca. 784, not long after the death of
Charlemagne's wife Hildegard and his marriage to Fastrada.
Charlemage's biographer Einhard, writing shortly after the emperor's
death, provides later details for the family (but omits the three
children of Charles and Hildegarde who died as infants)."Hic ex
Hildegard coniuge quattuor filios et quinque filias procreavit. Habuit
tamen, ante legale connuium ex Himiltrude nobili puella filium nomine
Pippinum. Natorum sane eius quos ei Hildegard peprit, ista sunt
nomina: primus dictus est Karolus, scilicet patris ac proavi vocabulo
nuncupatus; secundus item Pippinus, fratri atque avo aequivocus;
tertius Lodobich qui cum Hlothario, qui biennis occubuit, uno partu
est genitus; ex quibus iam Deo favente minor Pippinus regnum Italiae,
Lodobich Aquitaniae tenent." "Mortua autem Hildegard, rex
excellentissimus Karolus Fastradam duxit uxorem. Quae Hildegard apud
urbem Mettensium in beati Arnulfi oratiori requiescit. Pro eo denique,
quod a beato Arnulfo iam fati reges originem ducerent, suorum ibi
carorum defuncta corpora posuere. Nam ibi humatae sunt duae regis
Pippini filiae, quarum una Rodthaid, altera Adelaid appellata est; ibi
quoque et iunioris regis Karoli duae nihilominus tumulatae sunt natae,
scilicet Adelaid det Hildegard; quae Hildegard materno nuncupata
nomine, matrem morientum citius subsecuta est. Quarum omnium epitapha
a nobis iussu gloriosi Caroli composita, ut de eis liquido lectori
satisferet, subter annotare curavi."[Paul the Deacon, Gesta Episcopum
Mettensium, MGH SS 2: 265]
"... Deinde cum matris hortatu filiam Desiderii, regis Langobardorum,
duxisset uxorem, incertumqua de causa, post annum eam repudavit, et
Hildegardem de gente Suavorum, praecipuae nobilitatis feminam, in
matrimonium accepit, de qua tres filios, Karolum videlicet et Pippinum
et Ludowicum, totidemque filias, Hruodrudem et Bertham et Gislam,
genuit. Habuit et alias tres filias, Theoderadam et Hiltrudem et
Ruodhaidem, duas de Fastrada uxore, quae de orientalium Francorum,
Germanorum videlicet, gente erat, tertiam de concubina quadam, cuius
nomen modo memoriae non occurrit. Defuncta Fastrada, Liudgardam
Alamannam duxit, de qua nihil liberorum tulit. Post cuius cuius mortem
tres habuit concubinas, Gersuindam Saxonici generis, de qua ei filia
nomen Adaltrud nata est, et Reginam, quae ei Drogonem et Hugum genuit,
et Adallindem, ex qua Theodricum procreavit. Mater eius quoque
Berthrada in magno apud eum honore consenuit. Colebat enim eam cum
summa reverentia, ita ut nulla umquam invicem sit exorta discordia,
praeter in divortio filiae Desiderii regis, quam illa suadente
acceperat. Decessit tandem post mortem Hildegardae, cum iam tres
nepotes suos totidemque neptes in filii domo vidisset; quam ille in,
eadem basilica qua pater situe est, apud sanctum Dionisium, magno cum
honore fecit humari. ..." [Einhard, Vita Caroli, c. 18, MGH SS 2: 453]
Legitimate son: Pépin/Pippin originally Carloman), b. 777, d. 8 July
810, king of Italy, 781-810.
~Bret, scion of Charle de Magne
http://Back-stabbingAncestralDescendantsASSoc.genealogy.medieval
wjhonson
Yes... but.
The origins of Arnulf (bishop of Metz etc) are unknown
Later works appear to make an attempt to glorify the ancestry of
Charlemagne by giving him a descent from the Merovingians, but these
are faulty and conflicted.
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANKSMaiordomi.htm#Arnouldied640
Will Johnson
lostc...@yahoo.com
<bret.scion.of.charle.de.ma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Clovis, a Ripuarian Frank who was the King of Cologne circa 420 AD.
The word is "riparian". It is not an ethnic term but means "of the
river", as in living near or making one's living from a river.
James Hogg
wrote:
Be sure to tell that to Theodore John Rivers so that he can
correct his next edition of "The Laws of the Salian and
Ripuarian Franks".
James
~Bret, scion of Charle de Magne
of Charlemagne
to be:
St. Arnulf
Bishop of Metz[1,2]
582 - 640
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00020922&tree=LEO
Notes
• BIOGRAPHY
Arnulf (Arnoul or Arnoulf in French) was born of an important Frankish
family at an uncertain date around 582. His father may have been
Arnoald, who was dux of the Scheldt before becoming bishop of Metz.
Arnulf was married to a woman believed to have been called Doda, and
to have had children by her. Chlodulf of Metz was his eldest son, but
more important is his second son Ansegisel, who married Begga,
daughter of Arnulf's lifelong friend Pippin 'the Elder' (Pippin of
Landen).
In Arnulf's younger years he was called to the Merovingian court to
serve King Theudebert II of Austrasia (in what is now France) and as
dux of the Scheldt. After the death of Theudebert in 612, Arnulf was
made bishop of Metz. The rule of Austrasia came into the hands of
Brunichilde, the grandmother of Theudebert, who also ruled in Burgundy
in the name of her great-grandchildren. In 613 Arnulf joined with
Pippin 'the Elder' and led the opposition of Frankish nobles against
Queen Brunichilde. The revolt led to her overthrow, torture and
eventual execution, and the subsequent reunification of Frankish lands
under Chlotar II.
From 623 (with Pippin of Landen, then the major domus of the palace),
Arnulf was an advisor to Dagobert I, son of Chlotar II. He retired
around 629 to a hermitage at a mountain site in the Vosges, to
implement his lifelong resolution to become a monk and a hermit. His
friend Romaric, whose parents had been killed by Brunichilde, had
preceded him in the mountains and, together with Amatus, had already
and begun the monastic community at Habend later called Remiremont.
Arnulf settled there, and remained until his death twelve years later,
about 18 July 640.
Arnulf was canonised as a saint by the Catholic Church. In iconography
he is portrayed with a rake in his hand and is often confused in
legend with Arnold of Soissons, who is a patron saint of brewing.
•
• Sources
• 1. [S00160] Caroli Magni Progenies, Neustadt an der Aisch, 1977 ,
Rösch, Siegfried, Reference: 51
• 2. [S00571] The Penguin Dictionary of Saints, London, 1965 ,
Attwater, Donald, Reference: 52 biography
_____________________________
other sources:
http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/prov/index.htm
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~cyanda/2052.htm
http://www.american-pictures.com/genealogy/descent/Arnulf.Bishop.of.Metz.htm
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Arnulf-of-Metz
Encyclopedia > Arnulf of Metz
Arnulf of Metz (August 13, 582 – August 16, 640) was a Frankish noble
who had great influence in the Merovingian kingdoms as a bishop and
was later canonized as a saint. He is also known by his anglicized
name, Arnold.
Arnulf gave distinguished service at the Austrasian court under
Theudebert II (595-612). About 611 he was made bishop of Metz. In 613,
Arnulf and Pippin of Landen, whose daughter Begga, had married
Arnulf's son Ansegisel, led the opposition of Frankish nobles to Queen
Brunhilda of Austrasia. The revolt led to her overthrow, torture, and
eventual execution, and the subsequent reunification of Frankish lands
under Clotaire II, the dowager queen's nephew. Though Arnulf wanted to
retreat to the Vosges mountains as a hermit, he was persuaded to stay
and became the bishop of Metz.
From 623 (with Pippin of Landen, then the Mayor of the Palace), Arnulf
was an adviser to Dagobert I. With his friend Romaric, he retired in
627 to a mountain site in the Vosges, to implement his lifelong
resolution to become a hermit.
Before he was consecrated, he had two sons by his wife Doda: Ansegisel
and Chlodulf. Ansegisel married Pippin's daughter Begga, and their
child was Pippin the Middle, one of Charlemagne's great-grandfathers.
Chlodulf, like his father, became bishop of Metz. The existence of
third son called Martin is considered dubious.
Arnulf was canonized as a saint by the Roman Catholic Church and is
known as the patron saint of brewing. His feast day is either July 18
or August 16. In iconography, he is portrayed with a rake in his hand.
He is often confused in legend with Arnold of Soissons, who is another
patron saint of brewing.
While Arnulf is recognised as one of the earliest documented ancestors
of Charlemagne and thereby of most modern European royal families,
Arnulf's own parentage is both uncertain and undocumented. Some have
claimed that Arnulf's father was Arnoldus (c.535–600), and that his
mother was Ada of Swabia. Others, professing to quote Frankish
legends, make Arnulf the son of Bodigisel. Still others have claimed
that Arnulf's mother was Bertha, Princess of Paris (539–640).
Arnulf's more distant descent from a 4th-century "Mellobaude" may be a
genealogical fantasy to flatter the Carolingians:
• Mellobaude (320-376)
• Richemir (350-384) married Ascyla (d.352)
• Theodemir Magnus (370-414) married Valentina Justina (d.414)
• Clovis the Ripuarian (398-448) married Ildegonde de Cologne
(399-450)
• Childebert of Cologne (430-483) married Amalaberge (435-478)
• Siegbert the Lame (d.509)
• Cloderic of Cologne (477-509) married Parricide
• Munderic (500-532) married Arthenia (500)
• Bodegisel I married Palatina
• Bodegisel II (d.588) married Oda of Suevian
• Arnulf (582-641) married Dode (586-612)
External links
• Catholic Encyclopedia 1908 "St. Arnulf of Metz"
Jared & Christina Olar
Ripaurian) and Salic -- the Franks by the river (i.e. the River Rhine) and
the Franks on the seashore. So they were ethnic terms, and there was even a
Franconian language group that is called Ripuarian.
Anyway there was never any such person as Clovis the Ripuarian, King of
Cologne, circa A.D. 420, nor did his alleged son Childebert, King of
Cologne, circa A.D. 450, ever exist. They were mistakenly invented early in
the 20th century by someone who misinterpreted the Life of St. Goar's
references to later Merovingian kings of those names. The pedigree of
Charlemagne certainly goes back to St. Arnulf, and probably goes back to
Sigebert the Lame, King of Cologne. That's as far as it can be taken.
Jared L. Olar
----- Original Message -----
From: <lostc...@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 11:44 PM
Subject: Re: ANCESTRY OF CHARLEMAGNE: KING OF FRANKS, EMPEROR OF HOLY ROMAN
EMPIRE
D. Spencer Hines
> and probably goes back to Sigebert the Lame, King of Cologne.
> That's as far as it can be taken.
Can you point us to something scholarly on the web that traces the
ascent to Sigebert [Siegbert?] The Lame -- or explicate it yourself with
some citations?
Thank you kindly.
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"Jared & Christina Olar" <ardg...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.672.12321557...@rootsweb.com...
~Bret, scion of Charle de Magne
wrote:
> Anyway there was never any such person as Clovis the Ripuarian, King of
> Cologne, circa A.D. 420, nor did his alleged son Childebert, King of
> Cologne, circa A.D. 450, ever exist. They were mistakenly invented early in
> the 20th century by someone who misinterpreted the Life of St. Goar's
> references to later Merovingian kings of those names. The pedigree of
> Charlemagne certainly goes back to St. Arnulf, and probably goes back to
> Sigebert the Lame, King of Cologne. That's as far as it can be taken.
So, I cited Leo's genealogical website for the information
that Charlemagne's ancestry stops at:
St. Arnulf
Bishop of Metz[1,2]
582 - 640
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00020922&tree=LEO
Other than making the unsubstantiated claim,
what documentation do you have to state
"and probably goes back to Sigebert the Lame, King of Cologne"?
~Bret, scion of Charle de Magne
http://Back-stabbingAncestralDescendantsASSoc.genealogy.medieval
lostc...@yahoo.com
wrote:
> The Franks were grouped as Ripuarian (sometimes also spelled Riparian and
> Ripaurian) and Salic -- the Franks by the river (i.e. the River Rhine) and
> the Franks on the seashore. So they were ethnic terms, and there was even a
> Franconian language group that is called Ripuarian.
I stand corrected - I had the meaning right but did not realize that
it was applied as an ethnic term in this instance. Bronwen.
Jared & Christina Olar
pp.33-34, briefly summarises (with some errors) the hypothetical lineage of
St. Arnulf going back to Sigebert the Lame, King of Cologne:
"The father of Ansgise was St. Arnulf, Bishop of Metz (d. 640), whose life
tells us that he was born about 582 and links him (though not
genealogically) with a court official Gundulf, who seems to be the same as
St. Gundulf (d. 607), another Mayor of the Palace, who as an old man became
Bishop of Tongres. The life of St. Gundulf refers to an Arnulf -- apparently
St. Arnulf -- as son of a dux Bodegisel and this Arnulf is called nepos mei
by St. Gundulf. Professor David Kelley argues that the word nepos is here
used in its basic sense of grandson, making St. Arnulf grandson of St.
Gundulf. The latter's life further tells us that he was son of Munderic, a
member, as Gregory of Tours tells us, of the Merovingian house and a kinsman
of Clovis. Munderic's father Cloderic was the son of Siegbert, King of
Cologne. In 509 Clovis instigated Cloderic to murder his father Siegbert,
and thereupon had him murdered and absorbed his kingdom. Siegbert's father
was Childebert, King of Cologne, probably the son of another Clovis, king
there early in the fifth century."
Footnote 2 on p.33 says "The Chronicon Episcoporum Tungrensium says that St.
Gundulf's mother was a daughter of King Chlotar," which Wagner mentions as
an example of a claim of Merovingian descent that is "open to doubt."
Footnote 1 on p.34 cites as basis for the summarised reconstructed pedigree,
"J. Depoin, 'Les grandes figures monacales au temps merovingiens', Revue
Mabillon, xi, 1921, pp.245-58, and xii, 1922, pp.13-25, 105-18; David H.
Kelley, 'A New Consideration of the Carolingians', New English Hist. and
Gen. Reg., ci, 1947, pp.109-12. Letter from Professor Kelley, 28 Nov. 1968."
If I recall correctly (hopefully somebody here will refresh my memory and
offer correction as needed), Depoin was the one who misinterpreted the Life
of St. Goar's references to Frankish kings Clovis and his son Childebert,
thus inventing the non-existent Clovis the Ripuarian and his son Childebert.
Gregory of Tours does tell the stories of Sigebert the Lame and his
parricide son Cloderic (whom Gregory identifies as kinsmen of Clovis the
Merovingian), and also tells of Munderic and his attempt to establish
himself as a Frankish king -- but Gregory, contrary to Wagner's statement,
does not identify Munderic as a Merovingian. Gregory doesn't say anything
at all about Munderic's parentage or ancestry, but says only that he
"pretended to be of royal blood" -- that doesn't necessarily mean that
Munderic asserted a descent from Merovech, since the house of Merovech was
not the only Frankish royal dynasty prior to Clovis' ridding himself of his
rival kings. Presumably it is in one of the later saints' lives that
identifies Munderic as son of Cloderic.
Professor Kelley's 1947 NEHGR paper accepts St. Arnulf as son of Duke
Bodegisel, who is in turn placed as a son of another Bodegisel, son of
Munderic. However, Kelley later came to understand that the onomastics of
Frankish nobility in those days would make it impossible for there to be a
Bodegisel, son of Bodegisel. That is why he revised his argument to
identify St. Arnulf as grandson rather than great-nephew of St. Gundulf.
All of this depends on how much stock we can put in the Life of St. Gundulf
of Tongres. If his Life is correct, then it is probable (but by no means
even close to certain) that St. Arnulf was grandson of St. Gundulf, son of
Munderic, allegedly son of Cloderic, son of Sigebert the Lame.
I also note that the genealogical table of Herve Pinoteau's "Orientations
Bibliographiques Pour Une Recherche Sur Les Parentes Entre Les Trois
Dynasties Royales Francaises" (1982) shows Munderic (Mondri) the Pretender
as a hypothetical son of Cloderic le Parricide, roi de Cologne, d. 509, son
of Sigebert le Boiteaux, roi de Cologne, "parens" de Clovis. Interestingly,
Pinoteau's chart suggests that Sigebert might have been the son of a
"Clodebaud roi Cologne," who is turn is suggested as a son of Clodion, King
of the Franks. I have no idea what primary source, if any, supports the
existence of this Clodebald, King of Cologne, and since I don't know French
I'm at a loss for discerning that Pinoteau's authority may have been -- it
may have been Depoin. I guess I can run the relevant passage of Pinoteau's
paper through an online translator and see if I can make heads or tails of
the gibberish that it spews out at me.
Jared L. Olar
----- Original Message -----
From: "~Bret,scion of Charle de Magne"
<bret.scion.of....@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2009 9:46 PM
Subject: Re: ANCESTRY OF CHARLEMAGNE: KING OF FRANKS, EMPEROR OF HOLY ROMAN
EMPIRE
Let it fly
wrote:
> All of this depends on how much stock we can put in the Life of St. Gundulf
> of Tongres. If his Life is correct, then it is probable (but by no means
> even close to certain) that St. Arnulf was grandson of St. Gundulf, son of
> Munderic, allegedly son of Cloderic, son of Sigebert the Lame.
>
. I have no idea what primary source, if any, supports the
> existence of this Clodebald, King of Cologne, and since I don't know French
> I'm at a loss for discerning that Pinoteau's authority may have been -- it
> may have been Depoin. I guess I can run the relevant passage of Pinoteau's
> paper through an online translator and see if I can make heads or tails of
> the gibberish that it spews out at me.
Don't worry, this is TAF's area of expertise, disproving Charlemagne's
lineage to Merovingian kings: so we will wait for him to weigh in.
He cannot resist.
Jared & Christina Olar
disprove -- there are only speculations and hypothetical lineages taking
Charlemagne's genealogy back to Merovingian kings. Todd Farmerie is a solid
genealogical researcher of keen insight, and his observations and analyses
are ignored only at one's peril.
Jared L. Olar
----- Original Message -----
From: "Let it fly" <letiTi...@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 3:52 PM
Subject: Re: ANCESTRY OF CHARLEMAGNE: KING OF FRANKS, EMPEROR OF HOLY ROMAN
EMPIRE
Let it fly
wrote:
> There is no lineage of Charlemagne to Merovingian kings that anyone needs to
> disprove -- there are only speculations and hypothetical lineages taking
> Charlemagne's genealogy back to Merovingian kings. Todd Farmerie is a solid
> genealogical researcher of keen insight, and his observations and analyses
> are ignored only at one's peril.
TAF would totally disagree with you and your remarks about the
ancestry of
Charlemagne. But maybe he is getting SOFT in his ole age :)
Jared & Christina Olar
him to argue that there is a proven and confirmed lineage from Charlemagne
back to the Merovingians, and there just isn't any), but if he wishes to
weigh in, he is most welcome to.
Jared L. Olar
----- Original Message -----
From: "Let it fly" <letiTi...@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 9:47 PM
Subject: Re: ANCESTRY OF CHARLEMAGNE: KING OF FRANKS, EMPEROR OF HOLY ROMAN
EMPIRE
D. Spencer Hines
Quite Correct.
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Deus Vult
Jared & Christina Olar
Clovis avait de nombreux parents qui etaient rois. Saint Gregoire de Tours
nous a montre le premier roi chretien se debarrassant d'eux et regnant ainsi
progressivement seul. Ce qui doit etre situe au mieux, est la lignee des
rois de Francs restes sur le Rhin moyen et dont la capitale etait Cologne
(il n'y a pas eu de Francs ripuaires differents de saliens et le terme de
ripuaire est "recent"). J. Depoin, dans Le legende de saint Goar et les rois
francs de Cologne essaya de placer Sigebert le Boiteaux (car blesse a
Tolbiac), "parens" de Clovis, ainsi que le disait ce dernierl il aurait ete
assassine par son fils Cloderic, lui-meme supprime par Clovis. Sigebert
pouvait etre le fils d'un Clodebaud dont le nom nous est parvenu par une
ancienne genealogie, mais J. Depoin lui donne aussi le nome de Clodovie ou
Clovis (p. 19).
And here is a gibberish paragraph from Altavista Babelfish:
Clovis had many relatives who were kings. St. Gregory of Tours has us watch
the first Christian king getting rid of them and reigning thus gradually
only. What must be locates as well as possible, is the line of the kings of
the Franks remainders on the average Rhine and whose capital was Cologne (it
n' there did not have Franks Ripuarii different of Salians and the term of
Ripuarii is "recent"). J. Depoin, in The Legend of St. Goar and the Frankish
Kings of Cologne, tried to place Sigebert the Lame (because he was wounded
at Tolbiac), "kinsman" of Clovis, as said it this dernierl it would have
been assassinated by his son Cloderic, himself removed by Clovis. Sigebert
could be the son of Clodebaud whose name reached us by an old genealogy, but
J. Depoin gives him also names it of Clodovie or Clovis (p. 19).
So it looks like Pinoteau didn't say what the source was for Clodebaud, if
there even was one -- just some "old genealogy" -- unless Pinoteau was
referring to something in Depoin's Legend of St. Goar (in Etudes
merovingiennes, Paris, extr. de la Revue des etudes historiques,
juillet-aout 1909).
Jared L. Olar
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jared & Christina Olar" <ardg...@comcast.net>
To: <GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 3:19 PM
Subject: Re: ANCESTRY OF CHARLEMAGNE: KING OF FRANKS,EMPEROR OF HOLY ROMAN
EMPIRE
> offer correction as needed), Depoin was the one who misinterpreted the
> Life
> of St. Goar's references to Frankish kings Clovis and his son Childebert,
> thus inventing the non-existent Clovis the Ripuarian and his son
> Childebert.
> Gregory of Tours does tell the stories of Sigebert the Lame and his
> parricide son Cloderic (whom Gregory identifies as kinsmen of Clovis the
> Merovingian), and also tells of Munderic and his attempt to establish
> himself as a Frankish king -- but Gregory, contrary to Wagner's statement,
> does not identify Munderic as a Merovingian. Gregory doesn't say anything
> at all about Munderic's parentage or ancestry, but says only that he
> "pretended to be of royal blood" -- that doesn't necessarily mean that
> Munderic asserted a descent from Merovech, since the house of Merovech was
> not the only Frankish royal dynasty prior to Clovis' ridding himself of
> his
> rival kings. Presumably it is in one of the later saints' lives that
> identifies Munderic as son of Cloderic.
>
> Professor Kelley's 1947 NEHGR paper accepts St. Arnulf as son of Duke
> Bodegisel, who is in turn placed as a son of another Bodegisel, son of
> Munderic. However, Kelley later came to understand that the onomastics of
> Frankish nobility in those days would make it impossible for there to be a
> Bodegisel, son of Bodegisel. That is why he revised his argument to
> identify St. Arnulf as grandson rather than great-nephew of St. Gundulf.
>
> All of this depends on how much stock we can put in the Life of St.
> Gundulf
> of Tongres. If his Life is correct, then it is probable (but by no means
> even close to certain) that St. Arnulf was grandson of St. Gundulf, son of
> Munderic, allegedly son of Cloderic, son of Sigebert the Lame.
>
> I also note that the genealogical table of Herve Pinoteau's "Orientations
> Bibliographiques Pour Une Recherche Sur Les Parentes Entre Les Trois
> Dynasties Royales Francaises" (1982) shows Munderic (Mondri) the Pretender
> as a hypothetical son of Cloderic le Parricide, roi de Cologne, d. 509,
> son
> of Sigebert le Boiteaux, roi de Cologne, "parens" de Clovis.
> Interestingly,
> Pinoteau's chart suggests that Sigebert might have been the son of a
> "Clodebaud roi Cologne," who in turn is suggested as a son of Clodion,
> King
> of the Franks. I have no idea what primary source, if any, supports the
> existence of this Clodebald, King of Cologne, and since I don't know
> French
> I'm at a loss for discerning that Pinoteau's authority may have been -- it
> may have been Depoin. I guess I can run the relevant passage of
> Pinoteau's
> paper through an online translator and see if I can make heads or tails of
> the gibberish that it spews out at me.
>
> Jared L. Olar
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "~Bret,scion of Charle de Magne"
> <bret.scion.of....@gmail.com>
> Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
> To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2009 9:46 PM
> Subject: Re: ANCESTRY OF CHARLEMAGNE: KING OF FRANKS, EMPEROR OF HOLY
> ROMAN
> EMPIRE
>
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
~Bret, scion of Charle de Magne
wrote:
> So it looks like Pinoteau didn't say what the source was for Clodebaud, if
> there even was one -- just some "old genealogy"
> > that Charlemagne's ancestry stops at:
>
> > St. Arnulf
> > Bishop of Metz[1,2]
> > 582 - 640
> >http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00020922&tree=LEO
>
> > Other than making the unsubstantiated claim,
> > what documentation do you have to state
> > "and probably goes back to Sigebert the Lame, King of Cologne"?
So, Leo is right, my ancestor Charlemagne's documented ancestry
stops at:
St. Arnulf
Bishop of Metz[1,2]
582 - 640
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00020922&tree=LEO
~Bret, scion of Charle de Magne
http://Back-stabbingAncestralDescendantsASSoc.genealogy.medieval
Jared & Christina Olar
Bodegisel, etc., but that ancestry is only probable, not solidly established
as the generations from St. Arnulf on down are.
Jared L. Olar
----- Original Message -----
From: "~Bret,scion of Charle de Magne"
<bret.scion.of....@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval, alt.history.british,
sci.military.naval,soc.history.medieval, us.military.army
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 6:04 AM
Subject: Re: ANCESTRY OF CHARLEMAGNE: KING OF FRANKS, EMPEROR OF HOLY ROMAN
EMPIRE
"mcdonaldREMOVE TO...@scs.uiuc.edu
>
> So, Leo is right, my ancestor Charlemagne's documented ancestry
> stops at:
>
> St. Arnulf
> Bishop of Metz[1,2]
> 582 - 640
>
Well, yes, but ...
remember that the speculative lines to him from antiquity are NOT
all THROUGH Arnulf. There are postulated lines through his mother, and
through Arnulf's wife Doda and his (Arnulf's) daughter in law
Begga, these latter two being essentially the same idea.
Doug McDonald
Jared & Christina Olar
Arnulf's wife Doda (whom Settipani suggests was daughter of St. Arnoald of
Metz, incorrectly said in the Ansbertian pedigree to be father of St.
Arnulf).
I managed to find where I'd put my copies of Moriarty's and Kelley's old
NEHGR articles on the Carolingian pedigree. I'd forgotten all about it, but
it is indeed the Life of St. Gundulf which alleges that Munderic the
Pretender was son of Cloderic the Parricide, King of Cologne. Moriarity and
Kelley also explain the evidence for identifying St. Arnulf as son of Duke
Bodegisel (or Baudgise), which is a claim that appears in a few old sources,
not just the Life of St. Gundulf. My impression is that it is pretty
likely, not confirmed, that St. Arnulf was son of Baudgise, but the
remainder of the male lineage back to Sigebert the Lame is subject to more
doubt, since it depends on genealogical statements in a saint's life -- even
if Baudgise was son of St. Gondolf or Gondoule, and even if Gondolf was son
of Munderic, the assertion that Munderic was son of Cloderic is doubtful,
because St. Gregory of Tours does not confirm that tradition. It could be
that Munderic claimed to be Cloderic's son but St. Gregory didn't believe
him, or St. Gregory didn't know the details of Munderic's claims -- and it
could be that the details of Munderic's claims were forgotten, and the
statements in St. Gundulf's life that he was Cloderic's son were mere
invention. Or maybe all of the genealogical assertions in the life are
correct. We're just not in any position to confirm or deny these
traditions.
Jared L. Olar
----- Original Message -----
From: <"mcdonaldREMOVE TO ACTUALLY REACH ME"@scs.uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval, alt.history.british,
sci.military.naval,soc.history.medieval, us.military.army
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 9:00 AM
Subject: Re: ANCESTRY OF CHARLEMAGNE: KING OF FRANKS, EMPEROR OF HOLY
ROMANEMPIRE
D. Spencer Hines
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Doug McDonald
> How far are you willing to take Charlemagne's Ancestry back, Doug?
The farthest I see as reliable in each generation is Arnulf.
From him back, it is quite clear that he has a Merovingian
royal ancestry. But the data is fraught with words like "nepos"
and no way to tell what that means in any given case. I think it very
likely that Arnulf is a descendant of Munderic, who is certainly
a relative of Theoderic I. But what relation? The tradition says Arnulf
descends from Sigibert King of Cologne through Chloderic.
Begga, wife of Pepin II, if probably the best chance for a line to the
Roman Empire. There are numerous paths back to Tonantius Ferroleus,
consul, any of which could be real, most of which cannot possibly be real,
since they are mostly exclusive.
I have constructed a chart which show the possibilities are
most possible. Note that ALL of the connections are speculative,
thogh some generations in the middle are rock solid. However, there are
some so-called experts that postulate different paths.
I thought I posted the chart. Maybe it did not get across. It is
for a fixed width font. If it wraps, each line is the same
length and exns in an x. Dashed lines are particularly iffy.
Theodechildis as wife of Ferroleus is also very very speculative
as is the imperial root of Papianilla.
[Flavius Postumius Syagrius] x
| x
anonyma===Agricola, cos, 421 [Afranius]===[Syagria] x
| PPO Galliae | x
______________|____ Fl. Afranius Syagrius, cos, 382 x
| | | x
Eparchius Avitus [Eparchia]===Petronius Maximus | x
Emp. 455-456 | Emp. 455 [Tonantius Ferreolus]===[Syagria] x
Bp. Placentia 456 "the Unknown Proconsul" | x
| | x
_____________ _ _|_ _ _ _ _ _ __________________________| x
| | | | x
Sigibert Leontius Ruricius Papianilla=====Tonantius Ferreolus Clovis I x
K. Cologne Bp. Arles Bp, Limoges | Praet. Praef. Galliae K. the Franks x
d ca. 507 452-494 d ca. 507 | 453 511-533 x
_|______________________ | ___________|_____ x
| | | | | x
Balderic Chloderic Tonantius Theoderic Theodechildis x
Abbt. Montfaucon K, Cologne | K. Austrasia x
(rel. Clovis I) | 533-547 x
| | | x
_________| _ _ _ _ _ _ | x
| | | | x
anonyma=====Munderic Doda ===========Ferreolus=========Theodechildis x
| (rel.Theoderic I) Abbss. St. | vir clarissimus | x
___|_________ __________ Peter Reims Narbonne x
| | | |_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _| x
| | | | x
Mummolin Baldegisel Gundulf Bilichilde === Ansbert x
Ct. Soissons Duke Bp. Tongres | senator x
| (m. Palatina) | | x
|_ _ _ _ _ _ | | x
| | | | x
Baldegisel Arnoald x
Duke | | Bp. Metz x
(m. Oda) 601-611 x
| | | | x
x
|_ _ _ _|_ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _|_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ x
| | | x
Arnulf =============Doda Itta === Pippin “The Elder” x
Bp. Metz | nun at | x
613-629 | S. Peter of Reims | x
| _________________| x
| | x
Ansegisel================Begga x
| x
| x
Pippin “The Younger” “Major Domus” x
What you are supposed to take from all this is cumulative probabilities ... that is, each path has some
probability of being right. Thus there is a fairly good chance that at least one
path is OK. My gut feeling is that that cumulative chance is 80%.
All this can be obtained by searching the archives of soc.genealogy.medieval.
The chart itself is adapted from Ford Mommaerts-Browne. I have made some
lines he had solid as dashed.
Doug McDonald
~Bret, scion of Charle de Magne
> D. Spencer Hines wrote:
> How far are you willing to take Charlemagne's Ancestry back, Doug?
Thanks DSH and Doug:
Leo has the following as definitive (appreciating your speculative and
more expansion possible ancestry, Doug):
with the caveat, I did the AT, so any errors/deviations from Leo are
mine and will be corrected as so noted, if noted:
CHARLEMAGNE TOTO ANCESTRY by Leo
http://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00000001&tree=LEO
http://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00020925&tree=LEO&display=standard
http://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00294136&tree=LEO&display=standard
http://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00294142&tree=LEO&display=standard
http://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00020921&tree=LEO&display=standard
1 CHARLEMAGNE
___________________________
2 PIPPIN the Short King of the Franks= 3 BERTADA, au grand pied
___________________________
4 CHARLES MARTEL Prince of the Franks= 5 CHRODTRUD
___________________________
6 HERIBERT CARIBERT Count of Laon= 7?
___________________________
8 PIPPIN= 9 CHALPAIDA Alpais
___________________________
12 ?= 13 BERTRADA the Elder
___________________________
16 ANSEGISEL= 17 BEGGA
___________________________
26 HUGOBERT, Senechall, Pfalzgraf= 27 IRMINA
___________________________
32 ST ARNULF Bishop of Metz= 33?
___________________________
34 PIPPIN the Elder, Major Domus= 35 ITTA Iduburga
___________________________
70 ARNOLDUS Bishop of Metz= 71?
___________________________
140 ANSBERTUS= 141 BLITHILDE
___________________________
280 TONANTIUS= 281?
___________________________
560 TONANTIUS FERREOLUS, Praetorian Prefect of Gaul= 561?
___________________________
1120 FERREOLUS= 1121?
___________________________
2242 AFRANIUS SYAGRIUS, Gallo-Roman Consul= 2243?
___________________________
~Bret, scion of Charle de Magne
http://Back-stabbingAncestralDescendantsASSoc.genealogy.medieval
wjhonson
__________________________| x
> | | | | x
> Sigibert Leontius Ruricius Papianilla=====Tonantius Ferreolus Clovis I x
> K. Cologne Bp. Arles Bp, Limoges | Praet. Praef. Galliae K. the Franks x
> d ca. 507 452-494 d ca. 507 | 453 511-533 x
> _|______________________ | ___________|_____ x
> | | | | | x
> Balderic Chloderic Tonantius Theoderic Theodechildis x
> Abbt. Montfaucon K, Cologne | K. Austrasia x
> (rel. Clovis I) | 533-547 x
> | | | x
>
It appears to me that in this section you are stating that Clovis was
King of the Franks from 511 to 533.
Can you clarify this?
Thanks
Will Johnson
wjhonson
> > How far are you willing to take Charlemagne's Ancestry back, Doug?
>
> The farthest I see as reliable in each generation is Arnulf.
>
Was there really a person named Theoderic King of Austrasia 533-547 ?
The only Theuderic that I'm showing in this time period died in 534
and then his *son* Theudebert began ruling until his own death in 548.
I'm fairly suspicious that you can cite a credible source which gives
him a daughter named Theodechildis or that Ferreolus is his son-in-
law.
Can you?
Will Johnson
D. Spencer Hines
news:gl3h0v$4a4$1...@news.acm.uiuc.edu...
> D. Spencer Hines wrote:
>> How far are you willing to take Charlemagne's Ancestry back, Doug?
>
> The farthest I see as reliable in each generation is Arnulf.
That's been my feeling.
> From him back, it is quite clear that he has a Merovingian
> royal ancestry. But the data is fraught with words like "nepos"
> and no way to tell what that means in any given case. I think it very
> likely that Arnulf is a descendant of Munderic, who is certainly
> a relative of Theoderic I. But what relation? The tradition says Arnulf
> descends from Sigibert King of Cologne through Chloderic.
Yes, Tradition. Speaking to inherited Legitimacy. Court Genealogists.
> Begga, wife of Pepin II, is probably the best chance for a line to the
> Roman Empire. There are numerous paths back to Tonantius Ferroleus,
> consul, any of which could be real, most of which cannot possibly be real,
> since they are mostly exclusive.
Understood.
> I have constructed a chart which shows the possibilities that are
> most possible. Note that ALL of the connections are speculative,
> though some generations in the middle are rock-solid. However, there are
> some so-called experts who postulate different paths.
O.K. So, p[merovingian descent] = .80 ? or p[roman empire descent] = .80
? -- or p[one of the above] = .80 ?
> All this can be obtained by searching the archives of
> soc.genealogy.medieval.
> The chart itself is adapted from Ford Mommaerts-Browne. I have made some
> lines he had solid as dashed.
>
> Doug McDonald
Impressive Chart.
Muchas Gracias,
Spence
wjhonson
> On Jan 19, 7:39 pm, Doug McDonald <mcdon...@NoSpAmscs.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> > D. Spencer Hines wrote:
> > > How far are you willing to take Charlemagne's Ancestry back, Doug?
>
> > The farthest I see as reliable in each generation is Arnulf.
>
Just in case anyone wants to see what William of Malmesbury said
http://books.google.com/books?id=thQLAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA98
But then he was simply repeating a genealogy, constructed earlier, he
wasn't verifying it. Note the absurd placement of Blithilde as a
daughter of Lothar, father of Dagobert. Which is probably one reason
why this entire thing is considered fictional.
Will Johnson
"mcdonaldREMOVE TO...@scs.uiuc.edu
No, **I** am not claiming that ... Ford Mommaerts-Browne is claiming that.
Yes, it is date revisionism of a rather wholesale form. Actually it
just adds a constant to lots of dates, and does not really change relationships
in the local period very much. I should have mentioned this earlier.
********************************************
> Was there really a person named Theoderic King of Austrasia 533-547 ?
Same date revisionism.
>
> The only Theuderic that I'm showing in this time period died in 534
> and then his *son* Theudebert began ruling until his own death in 548.
>
> I'm fairly suspicious that you can cite a credible source which gives
> him a daughter named Theodechildis or that Ferreolus is his son-in-
> law.
>
> Can you?
No, but F M-B can and does give reasonable Settipani-like reasoning.
Note that in my notes I cited this as one of the two really really speculative
parts of the chart. Settipani-like reasoning can be rather tenuous.
Remember that large parts of that chart are impossible, because they
are mutually exclusive, and are tied up with the date revisionism.
Nevertheless, everything on it is possible as the one, single, real path.
Doug McDonald
Jared & Christina Olar
Blithilde as a daughter of Chlothar I, not Chlothar II as William of
Malmsbury shows. An understandable mistake. . . but then it's also doubtful
that Blithilde was really Chlothar I's daughter either.
Jared L. Olar
----- Original Message -----
From: "wjhonson" <wjho...@aol.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval,soc.history.medieval
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 1:06 AM
Subject: Re: ANCESTRY OF CHARLEMAGNE: KING OF FRANKS, EMPEROR OF HOLY ROMAN
EMPIRE
http://books.google.com/books?id=thQLAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA98
Will Johnson
Rob
ME"@scs.uiuc.edu wrote:
>
> No, but F M-B can and does give reasonable Settipani-like reasoning.
>
> Note that in my notes I cited this as one of the two really really speculative
> parts of the chart. Settipani-like reasoning can be rather tenuous.
>
> Doug McDonald
Can you please clarify what do you mean by "Settipani-like reasoning"?
Renia
D. Spencer Hines
*reasons* about these matters.
Be sure to read this:
ROMAN GENEALOGICAL CONTINUITY AND THE
“DESCENTS-FROM-ANTIQUITY” QUESTION
<http://www.nltaylor.net/pdfs/a_Continuite.pdf>
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"Renia" <re...@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote in message
news:AcGdnT94B7IbJufU...@giganews.com...
"mcdonaldREMOVE TO...@scs.uiuc.edu
It means, to me, looking at names, naming patterns, social structures,
localities of residence (not including the more formal info
provided by transmission of land, legally) etc., without clear and unambiguous
statements as to who was a parent of who, with the "who" clear and unambiguous.
Remember this applies to the very very early times without much in formal records.
Info is in charters, memoirs, oral tradition recorded later, and historic
compilations, usually recorded later, or at least copied later from lost
originals, though in a very few cases early manuscripts survive. Such
reasoning, in my definition of them, never reach the level of "proven";
that is "by definition".
Doug McDonald
Paulo Canedo
> On Jan 16, 8:29 pm, "Jared & Christina Olar" <ardgo...@comcast.net>
> > Anyway there was never any such person as Clovis the Ripuarian, King of
> > Cologne, circa A.D. 420, nor did his alleged son Childebert, King of
> > Cologne, circa A.D. 450, ever exist. They were mistakenly invented early in
> > the 20th century by someone who misinterpreted the Life of St. Goar's
> > references to later Merovingian kings of those names. The pedigree of
>
>
> St. Arnulf
> Bishop of Metz[1,2]
> 582 - 640
>
> Other than making the unsubstantiated claim,
> what documentation do you have to state
> "and probably goes back to Sigebert the Lame, King of Cologne"?
>
>
> http://Back-stabbingAncestralDescendantsASSoc.genealogy.medieval
W David Samuelsen via
Only in French, Catalan and Russian languages? No English?
David Samuelsen
Don Stone via
of new information in the 2014 book by Christian Settipani, Les Ancêtres
de Charlemagne, 2e édition revue et corrigée, which is vol. 16 in the
series Prosopographica et Genealogica,
http://www.coelweb.co.uk/prosopographica-et-genealogica.html.
I'm surprised that this book is not cited or utilized in this French
wikipedia entry on the Arnulfings. Both editions of Settipani's
Charlemagne are mentioned here:
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9f%C3%A9rence:Les_Anc%C3%AAtres_de_Charlemagne_(Christian_Settipani).
-- Don Stone
On 7/21/2016 12:31 AM, W David Samuelsen via wrote:
> Pfft!
>
> Only in French, Catalan and Russian languages? No English?
>
> David Samuelsen
>
> On 7/13/2016 6:01 AM, Paulo Canedo wrote: