Walderne de St. Clair
Nona Ferdon
--and possibly father of William de St. Clair, 3rd Laird of Rosslyn?
Thanks,
Nona
Patricia Junkin
Philip:
IPM Margareta Wintershull 1422, wife of Philip Seintclere listing 7 coms, 4
in Sry, 14 in Kent...
Thank you.
Pat
----------
>From: "Nona Ferdon" <Fer...@btinternet.com>
>To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
>Subject: Walderne de St. Clair
>Date: Sun, Aug 19, 2001, 2:07 PM
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> Can anyone give me a line on Walderne de St. Clair, reputed son of Mauger Le Jeune, Archbishop of Rouen, and grandson of Richard II of Normandy?
>
> --and possibly father of William de St. Clair, 3rd Laird of Rosslyn?
Reputed by whom? Much of what has been written about this family
is hopelessly tainted by all kinds of fabulous claims. You
should go back to the primary record and see what it says about
this William (who if he was of the generation of David I was
probably not a 3rd Laird of Rosslyn, or anyplace else).
taf
Annie Natalelli-Waloszek
luck on
www.rosslynchapel.org.uk
www.clansinclairusa.com
www.osmth.org (knights templar home page)
Just came back from there; well worth the sidetrip!
Annie
-----Message d'origine-----
De : Patricia Junkin <paju...@erols.com>
Ą : GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Date : dimanche 19 aoūt 2001 21:33
Objet : Re: Walderne de St. Clair
>On the subject to St. Clair/Seynt Clere/ Sinclair, would anyone know of
this
>Philip:
>IPM Margareta Wintershull 1422, wife of Philip Seintclere listing 7 coms, 4
>in Sry, 14 in Kent...
>
>Thank you.
>Pat
>
>----------
>>From: "Nona Ferdon" <Fer...@btinternet.com>
>>To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
>>Subject: Walderne de St. Clair
>>Date: Sun, Aug 19, 2001, 2:07 PM
>>
>
>> Can anyone give me a line on Walderne de St. Clair, reputed son of Mauger
>> Le Jeune, Archbishop of Rouen, and grandson of Richard II of Normandy?
>>
>> --and possibly father of William de St. Clair, 3rd Laird of Rosslyn?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Nona
>>
>
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> Anyone researching ROSSLYN OR SINCLAIR ST CLAIR ETC is invited to try their
> luck on
> www.rosslynchapel.org.uk
> www.clansinclairusa.com
> www.osmth.org (knights templar home page)
Take salt. Many grains required.
taf
Nona Ferdon
down the primary sources?
(and no, William St Clair (13-14th century) couldn't have anything to do
with David I.)
Many thanks, Nona
----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <farm...@no.spam.interfold.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2001 10:42 PM
Subject: Re: Walderne de St. Clair
Annie Natalelli-Waloszek
laird of Rosslyn, Henry Sinclair, ?
Nope, apparently not... if you believe Burke's...
the line is complex and interesting, & I had to look at it anyway, so Im
going to type up the section in Burke's for myself, and copy to the list to
let you work it out for yourselves, but Nona seems to be doing better than
Taf, for a change...
Now, one of the interesting parts of this line, is the earlier, norse
lineage... we have already part of the line back to Odin & Thor here...
The Scandinavian Earls of Orkney trace their descent from the noblest
and most heroic of the ruling dynasties of the north.Ivan, Princd of the
Uplands in Norway, who clamed a descent from the deified hero Thor, was the
father of Eystein, who had issue Rogenwald and Malarcle. the latter was
ancestor of the great Norman race of De Toeny, who were the hereditary
Standard Bearers of Normandy, and from whom the house of Lindsay is
descended. Rogenwald was a supporter of King Harold Harfage and assisted him
in obtaining the master over the other independent Norwegian cheifs, and
becoming established as King of all Norway. He was Earl of Ktere(?) &
Raumdahl in Norway, in 888 he obtained from King Harold a grant of the
Orkney and Shetland Islands... one of his sons, Rollo, conquered Neustria,
founded the soveirgn Duchy of Normandy & was ancestor to Wm the
Conqueror....another son was Eynar, whom his father assigned Orkney and
Shetland Isles, & whom Harold created Earl... his line ruled there for 5
centuries...
Sigurd, 2nd earl of Orkney, was slain at Clontarf in 1014, m a dau &
coheir of Malcolm II, king of Scotland, his line sharing with the royals of
Great Britain, the honours as heirs of the Pictish kings
Paul, Earl of Orkney who in 1066 accompanied King Harold Hardrada in his
ill-omened expedition against England, m the dau of Earl Haco & Princess
Ragenhilda, dau of Magnus, the good king of Norway who d 1048... the
descendants of this line becoming the ancestors of a branch of the royal
family of Norway, today....
The grand dau & heir of this marraige, Margaret, Countess of Orkney, m
abt mid-12th cent, Madoch, Earl of Athole, son of Earl Melmare, younger son
of King Duncan I, & brother of King Malcolm Canmore (this has the advantage
of giving some more ancestors to Crinan the Thane of Atholl, Abbot of
Dunkeld, to whom everybody who's anybody, seems to be traceable...)
The descendant of Margaret & Madoch, John, earl of Orkney, who d in
1305, m a Norwegian Princess, dau of Magnus, king of Norway, by Ingeborga,
dau of Eric, King of Denmark... the son of this marraige,
Magnus, 5th earl of Orkney, was admitted by his uncle HACO King of Norway,
in 1308, to be a prince of the blood royal, & to take his place with the
immediate sons of the Norwegian kings; he m Catherine, Countess of
Caithness, in her own right, & in 1320, he joined the other Magnates
Scotiae, signing the famous letter to the Pope, declaring the independance
of Scotland...
This great earl was the last of the Scandinavian sovereigns of the
Orkneys; succeeded by his dau Countess Isabella, who brought her illustrious
blood, titles and lands to Scotland, by marrying Malise, 6th earl palatine
of Stratherne
Their son Malise 7th earl earl palatine of Stratherne was immensely
powerful, but had no male issue; his dau, Isabella, outlived all her
siblings & their descendants, carrying the entirety of the inheritence with
her in marrying the house of Sinclair, St Clair, De Sancto Claro... in the
person of William Sinclair lord of Rosslyn
*************** HERES WHAT YOUR LOOKING FOR: ******************
The remote ancestor of William St Clair was a noble Norman Baron,
descended from Waleran, (your Waldern, no doubt) Count of St Clair in
Normandy, by a dau of Richard, the Norman duke, who settled in Scotland in
the reign of King David & obtained from that monarch before the mid 12 cent,
the Lordship of Rosslyn in the shire of MidLothian...
BUT THERE ARE NO PATENTS FOR THIS ENTITLEMENT AND THE SUCCESSORS ARE NOT
PROPERLY NUMBERED IN THE REST OF THE PEDIGREE... BUT THE 1ST AND 2ND LAIRDS
OF ROSSLYN ARE BOTH WILLIAMS.... AS IS THE 3RD...
His descendant, Wm St Clair, Lord of Rosslyn, companion at arms to King
Robert Bruce, perished along with James, the Black Douglas, in a battle
agains the Moors in Spain in 1330 while carrying the Bruce's heart to the
Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem...
The son of this hero, Wm St Clair, Lord of Rosslyn, m Isabella of
Stratherne, dau sole heir of Malise, 7th Earl Palatine of Stratherne,
Orkney, & Caithness, by whom he had issue, Henry.... who became earl of
Orkney, a female fief granted him in 1379 by Haco, 6th king of Norway, as
heir of the old Scandinavian carls, by the right of his mother, Isabella
sole heir of Malise, 7th earl palatine of Stratherne, earl of Orkney &
Caithness& he was immediately recognized earl of Orkney, by his native
soveirgn, Robert, 2nd king of Scotland...)
So, Wm St Clair, Laird of Rosslyn, m Isabella, heir of Malise of Stracherne,
Orkney & Caithness; they had issue:
1. Henry, who succeeded as Laird of Rosslyn & became Earl of Orkney &
Caithness
2. David who had from his brother in 1391 Newburgh & lands in Orkney &
Shetland
3. Margaret, wife 1st of Thomas, Earl of Angus, & 2nd Sir Wm St Clair of B,
FIRST KNOWN LINK BETWEEN THE 2 DISTINCT BRANCHES OF THE NORMAN RACE OF THE
DE SANCTO CLARO FAMILIES.
Annie
-----Message d'origine-----
De : Nona Ferdon <Fer...@btinternet.com>
À : GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Date : mercredi 22 août 2001 10:36
Objet : Re: Walderne de St. Clair
Phil Moody
Rogenwald was a supporter of King Harold Harfage and assisted him
in obtaining the master over the other independent Norwegian cheifs, and
Harold a grant of the Orkney and Shetland Islands...
PLM: Annie, and where do you suppose Harald acquired the authority to
distribute Orkney and Shetland from? I should also point out that the year
888, is in all probability, prior to Harald's complete unification of
Norway.
Paul, Earl of Orkney who in 1066 accompanied King Harold Hardrada in his
ill-omened expedition against England, m the dau of Earl Haco & Princess
Ragenhilda, dau of Magnus, the good king of Norway who d 1048... the
descendants of this line becoming the ancestors of a branch of the royal
family of Norway, today....
PLM: Earl Haco is of course Earl Hakon Ivarsson, a grandson of Earl Hakon
the Great, who was himself a grandson of Harald Fairhair, on the maternal
side. Earl Hakon's paternal ancestry has a different lineage back to Odin,
through the Halogaland kings.
How is this line connected to the Royal Family of today? I have a deficet
of knowledge after the Kalmar union:-)
Best Wishes,
Phil
-----Original Message-----
From: Annie Natalelli-Waloszek [mailto:Xan...@Wanadoo.fr]
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 8:39 AM
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Walderne de St. Clair
Annie
Ą : GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Date : mercredi 22 aoūt 2001 10:36
norenxaq
Phil Moody wrote:
> Annie Natalelli-Waloszek wrote:
> Rogenwald was a supporter of King Harold Harfage and assisted him
> in obtaining the master over the other independent Norwegian cheifs, and
> becoming established as King of all Norway. in 888 he obtained from King
> Harold a grant of the Orkney and Shetland Islands...
>
> PLM: Annie, and where do you suppose Harald acquired the authority to
> distribute Orkney and Shetland from? I should also point out that the year
> 888, is in all probability, prior to Harald's complete unification of
> Norway.
>
> Paul, Earl of Orkney who in 1066 accompanied King Harold Hardrada in his
> ill-omened expedition against England, m the dau of Earl Haco & Princess
> Ragenhilda, dau of Magnus, the good king of Norway who d 1048... the
> descendants of this line becoming the ancestors of a branch of the royal
> family of Norway, today....
>
> PLM: Earl Haco is of course Earl Hakon Ivarsson, a grandson of Earl Hakon
> the Great, who was himself a grandson of Harald Fairhair, on the maternal
> side. Earl Hakon's paternal ancestry has a different lineage back to Odin,
> through the Halogaland kings.
> How is this line connected to the Royal Family of today? I have a deficet
> of knowledge after the Kalmar union:-)
>
Could you post his line back to Odin? Thank-you
Ford Mommaerts-Meulemans-Browne
FWIW, do not the sagas say that Harald conquered them along with the Faroės
as part of his unification of the Norwegian realms?
The...@aol.com
Hello Phil, Annie, Nona, Todd et al.,
There are two problems in fact, neither of which is resolved or
(evidently) well researched by our friends at Burke's - how
unusual............ ;)
1. The Jarls of the Orkneys
Unfortunately I don't have time to post a line of descent, but the
problem is that there is no single line of descent (patrilineal or otherwise)
for the Jarls. Once you reach Paul and Erlend, sons of Thorfinn II (d. ca.
1065) the Jarls would occasionally share power, intentionally or otherwise;
also there were occasions when the descendants of Paul would displace those
of Erlend, or vice versa.
Specific problems with Burke here:
A. No mention of Thorfinn II between Sigurd and Paul Thorfinnsson;
B. Magnus, Jarl of Orkney, given in the Burke's account as son of John
Haraldsson, was in fact of the family of the Earls of Angus, having acquired
his claim to the Orkneys through his mother (see SP, under Ancient Earls of
Caithness). His relationship has been variously theorized as being through a
daughter of Harald Maddadsson, a daughter of John Haraldsson, and a sister of
Harald the Younger (and daughter of Eirik 'Stay-Brails'), without a
definitive resolution. The Burke's story of a close relationship with 'King
Haco of Norway' has no support in SP.
[Also, given that Magnus apparently died in 1239 gives his elevation
as 'prince of the blood royal' after 1300 a supernatural twist.......]
C. From Magnus to Isabella, daughter of Malise of Strathearn, Jarl of
the Orkneys we have a total of 7 generations (see SP, Caithness, and also
Ancient Earls of Strathearn]. Burke's condenses this to 4 generations,
apparently which helps account for William Sinclair, husband of Isabella,
dying in 1358 - this works better with her great-grandfather Magnus being,
according to Burke's, active in 1320 (!!!).
2. Sinclair
The origins of the Scots family would be best explained as Russian, I
guess (a mystery wrapped in an enigma,..etc. etc.). SP cites a descent from
a daughter of Robert, 2nd Comte de Dreux (d. 1218); no evidence for this was
provided in the SP article, so I suppose this is as good (or as bad) as the
Burke's derivation from the family of the Norman dukes.
A Norman origin seems likely, but I am unaware of anyone showing a
solid (documented) origin before William de St. Clair of Rosslin (ca.
1250-1260). Anyone ?
As to a line of descent from Odin...... I'll settle for a documented
descent from Thorfinn (Sigurdsson), and leave tracing descents from Thor
(Odinsson) to others.
Good luck, and good hunting to all.
John
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> Yes Todd, that's what I'm asking.- can you give me any clues on tracking
> down the primary sources?
The fact of the matter is that there probably aren't any. What
you need to do, though, is to start with the sources that you
have and follow back their chain of evidence - look at the
sources that they cite, and then the citations of those
citations, etc. If they don't cite the basis for their claim, it
immediately goes into the "possibly wrong" department, especially
for a family with such emotional baggage. Then all you can do is
start with the earliest thing that you know and work your way
back - canvas the relevant sources for mentions of the manors
they held, or of the surname, and see if the pedigree can be
independently reconstructed. Just finding the mention of a
person at the right time isn't good enough - it is not
"confirming" a pedigree to find the same inconclusive evidence
and make the same leap of faith as the author whose work you are
trying to document. When you get to a point where you can't make
a direct connection from one person to another, you stop, even if
it isn't as far back as you had been led to expect.
taf
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> Now, one of the interesting parts of this line, is the earlier, norse
> lineage... we have already part of the line back to Odin & Thor here...
This line is completely bogus, of course, but it does make for
good fireside chat.
> The Scandinavian Earls of Orkney trace their descent from the noblest
> and most heroic of the ruling dynasties of the north.Ivan, Princd of the
> Uplands in Norway,
That's Ivar, not Ivan, and you have promoted him to Prince? In
the original source, he was just Jarl.
> who clamed a descent from the deified hero Thor,
Umm, no. Ivar is claimed to have descended from (note that we
have no evidence of what he claimed, in the unlikely case that he
actually existed) Fornjot, King of Finland and Kvenland. It
certainly doesn't surprise me that someone would not be satisfied
with this fabular descent and add even more, but that's all the
Orkneyinga Saga claims. I suspect though that there is some
confusion with the brothers Gor and Nor (but not Thor), who do
appear in the fable.
> was the
> father of Eystein, who had issue Rogenwald and Malarcle. the latter was
> ancestor of the great Norman race of De Toeny,
Another late invention - as Rollo doesn't appear to have come
from this family, then his supposed kin the Toenys didn't either
(their earliest documented ancestor, Hugh de Cavalcamp, was
French, not Norman - so much for these ancient pedigrees).
> who were the hereditary
> Standard Bearers of Normandy, and from whom the house of Lindsay is
> descended.
What is the basis for this claim?
> Rogenwald was a supporter of King Harold Harfage and assisted him
[snip]
> Orkney and Shetland Islands... one of his sons, Rollo, conquered Neustria,
> founded the soveirgn Duchy of Normandy & was ancestor to Wm the
> Conqueror....
Or not.
> Sigurd, 2nd earl of Orkney, was slain at Clontarf in 1014, m a dau &
> coheir of Malcolm II, king of Scotland,
Not coheir. Malcolm is said to have given Caithness to Thorfinn,
but Malcolm had one heir - Duncan (not even Duncan's mother, or
his father, jure uxoris). This, by the way, assumes that it is
Malcolm II being refered to, rather than Macbeth's cousin and
predecessor, as Hudson would have us think.
> his line sharing with the royals of
> Great Britain, the honours as heirs of the Pictish kings
The Picts had no honors pass to heirs. They appear to have been
conquered and absorbed by the Kenneth MacAlpin, who claimed to be
their king, but heir is a different matter, and no genealogical
connection can be established, not that that has stopped anyone.
> Paul, Earl of Orkney who in 1066 accompanied King Harold Hardrada in his
> ill-omened expedition against England, m the dau of Earl Haco & Princess
> Ragenhilda, dau of Magnus, the good king of Norway who d 1048... the
> descendants of this line becoming the ancestors of a branch of the royal
> family of Norway, today....
Again, probably not, with all of the unrecognized illegitimate
sons returning from abroad to claim their inheritance (just like
Lambert Simnel, but successful).
> The remote ancestor of William St Clair was a noble Norman Baron,
> descended from Waleran, (your Waldern, no doubt) Count of St Clair in
> Normandy,
There was no such County in Normandy. Is there any basis for
this descent other than the fact the the two had the same toponym
(assuming Waleran is not invented).
> by a dau of Richard, the Norman duke,
Neither Richard I, II, nor III had a daughter who married (or had
a child outside of marriage by) a Waleran of St. Clair.
> His descendant, Wm St Clair, Lord of Rosslyn, companion at arms to King
> Robert Bruce,
So you have a gap here of a couple hundred years. Are there
specific names in between? DO any of them appear in any
contemporary documents?
taf
Annie Natalelli-Waloszek
she can just hang on to the Burke's as an uproved, challenged, but still
existant structure for future work... better than nothing as a starting
point...there is often something to the fact things show up there... if only
a vague lead for future reference in searching out the true story...
not everybody is looking for the ultimate truth on all the lines; eg for me,
the link is a bit distant, I'll never have the time, so Burke's will do for
now, to have a general idea of what the line is about & why it's so
emotionally charged... the legends do indicate stuff like that...
By the way, what's "bogus" abt the Thor line? They were originally
real people who's legends got carried away with them... lots of
Roman Emporers got deified; didnt mean they didn't exist...
Annie
-----Message d'origine-----
De : Todd A. Farmerie <farm...@no.spam.interfold.com>
À : GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Date : jeudi 23 août 2001 08:15
Objet : Re: Walderne de St. Clair
Annie Natalelli-Waloszek
sources that proved the points... I assume your memory for such things is up
to it, as you apparently notice the conflicts of data at a read...
it's quite helpful to have all the conflicts pointed out on a single page
like that, rather than having to find and debate them one by one; of course
some of them have gone by on the list before, but with my teflon brain, it's
best to have a sheet of contestations in the same file with the rest of the
lines...
it would of course not be particularly wise to just overturn everything
Burke's says without knowing which sources are contesting him; he's not
ALWAYS wrong, after all... & does often make for at least a good read, as
you say... a place to start, as I say...
Annie
-----Message d'origine-----
De : Todd A. Farmerie <farm...@no.spam.interfold.com>
À : GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Date : jeudi 23 août 2001 08:16
Objet : Re: Walderne de St. Clair
Phil Moody
Could you post his line back to Odin? Thank-you
PLM: I originally found the line on Luke Steven's website, but he has pull
it and much more; so he can write a book on his findings. I did find it
still on his father's site, Jim Stevens at this URL.
http://www.gendex.com/users/jast/D0038/G0000030.html#I9413
To this page you could add this to the beginning:
Hakon,(d. 995), son of
Sigurd, son of
Hakon, son of
ES.
In the lost 10th century poem "Haleygjatal", of uncertain reliability,
the genealogy is continued as follows:
GRJOTGARD, son of
Herlaug, son of
Harald, son of
Thrand, son of
Harald Trygill, son of
Havar, son of
Hergils, son of
Bard, son of
Brynjolf, son of
Brand, son of
Hersir, son of
Mundill Gamli, son of
Gudlaug, son of
Gylaug, son of
Heimgest, son of
Godgest, son of
Havar Handrami, son of
Vedrhall, son of
Himinleyg, son of
Hodbrodd, son of
Sverdhjallt, son of
Godhjallt, son of
Saeming, son of
Odin.
PLM: Luke had originally cited Turton and the Haleygjatal for the lineage,
but I had the extant pieces of the Haleygjatal translated; so I knew the
majority of this was not obtained from it. I then looked at Turton and that
was a waste of my time.
I was now prepared to question Luke concerning his sources and received
this informative reply:
"If you are interested in a detailed history of these sources, then you
may want to read an article in _Sjötíu ritgerðir helgaðar Jakobi
Benediktssyni_ pp.177-190: Anthony Faulkes, "The genealogies and regnal
lists in a manuscript in Resen's library". I quote from it:
...The compilation as a whole is the oldest one of its kind to
survive from medieval Iceland (though only recorded in a late copy),
and is for instance the earliest record of the genealogy of the
Háleygjajarlar, and for the list of Skjöldungar might be considered
to have equal authority with Arngrímur Jónsson's account of
Skjöldunga saga. The lists of Skjöldungar, Ynglingar, and
Háleygjajarlar on the second page of Resen's compilation were
presumably derived from _Skjöldunga saga_ (or conceivably from a
written genealogy also used by the author of the saga),
_Ynglingatal_, and Háleygjatal_....
The list of Háleygjajarlar in Resen's manuscript was identical with
that given by Torfaeus in _Historia rerum Norvegicarum_ (Hafniae
1711), I, 146, except that it adds the two names Eiricr and Hacon at
the end. (* e.g. it has the forms Svegþir and Domalldr; and Alrecr
comes before Agni. Cf. S. Ellehøj, _Studier over den oeldste Norrone
historieskrivning_, Kbh. 1965, pp. 109-128) If _Háleygjatal_ really
made Saemingr son of Yngvi-Freyr, as Snorri states in his prologue
to _Heimskringla_, then in this detail too _Ynglinga saga_ and the
prologue to _Snorra Edda_, which make him son of Óðinn, agree with
the list in Resen's manuscript against the poetic source."
Best Wishes,
Phil
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> but if she cant make the progress in proving a final version of the line,
> she can just hang on to the Burke's as an uproved, challenged, but still
> existant structure for future work...
Yes, if she so chooses.
> better than nothing as a starting point...
Not necessarily.
> there is often something to the fact things show up there...
And often it is a simple mistaken identity, a misdating, a flawed
theory, an intentional forgery, etc.
> if only
> a vague lead for future reference in searching out the true story...
Or sometimes just a big red herring - and years of pointless
tail-chasing tracking down "leads" that were invented from the
start.
> not everybody is looking for the ultimate truth on all the lines;
Why not. Admittedly, it is an impossible goal to actually
achieve, but what is the point in doing genealogy if you don't
care if it's true or not. You might as well invent your own, (as
my cousin did, tongue in cheek, making Martin Peck the son of
Woody Wood Peck, just to fill in the space) and save yourself the
headache of doing the hard work.
> By the way, what's "bogus" abt the Thor line?
Well, for starters, it wasn't invented until after the 13th
century (after all, it's not in the Orkneyinga Saga, which
scrupulously provided the ancestry of the family), a good 500
years after the events supposedly being related.
> They were originally
> real people who's legends got carried away with them...
We don't know this. There are also lake spirits and such that
have been interpolated into pedigrees. More importantly, all of
the pedigrees break down before you get to that point.
> lots of
> Roman Emporers got deified; didnt mean they didn't exist...
Even if they existed, it doesn't mean that they were ancestors of
everyone claiming such a descent.
taf
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> Thanks! you know, Burke's.... but it would be even better if you'd note the
> sources that proved the points...
Some below.
> it's quite helpful to have all the conflicts pointed out on a single page
> like that,
Not all - just those I noticed.
> it would of course not be particularly wise to just overturn everything
> Burke's says without knowing which sources are contesting him;
A better way of looking at this is that it is not wise to just
accept anything that Burke's says without knowing the sources
that support it. You will never find a contemporary source
saying that an invented person or relationship was invented -
they weren't invented until hundreds of years later. Thus if you
accept everything that cannot be specifically refuted, you will
make significant errors of inclusion.
Now, for the sources.
> >> Ivan, Princd of the Uplands in Norway,
> >
> >That's Ivar, not Ivan, and you have promoted him to Prince? In
> >the original source, he was just Jarl.
Orkneyinga Saga (hereafter OS) - not a contemporary source, but
everything later is derived (and elaborated) from it, so if any
particular connection isn't there, it in all likelyhood was
invented later (sometimes much later - like Moncreiffe's flawed
identification of Ivar's father Halfdan the Old with one of the
Halfdan's in the Inglingatal fragments appearing in Heimskringla.
> >> who clamed a descent from the deified hero Thor,
> >
> >Umm, no. Ivar is claimed to have descended from (note that we
> >have no evidence of what he claimed, in the unlikely case that he
> >actually existed) Fornjot, King of Finland and Kvenland. It
> >certainly doesn't surprise me that someone would not be satisfied
> >with this fabular descent and add even more, but that's all the
> >Orkneyinga Saga claims. I suspect though that there is some
> >confusion with the brothers Gor and Nor (but not Thor), who do
> >appear in the fable.
Again, OS, right at the beginning.
> >> was the
> >> father of Eystein, who had issue Rogenwald and Malarcle. the latter was
> >> ancestor of the great Norman race of De Toeny,
> >
> >Another late invention - as Rollo doesn't appear to have come
> >from this family, then his supposed kin the Toenys didn't either
See Stewart Baldwin's explanations, both in the archives and his
Rollo page in his Henry Project.
> >(their earliest documented ancestor, Hugh de Cavalcamp, was
> >French, not Norman - so much for these ancient pedigrees).
CP, under Toeny.
> >> Rogenwald was a supporter of King Harold Harfage and assisted him
> >
> >[snip]
> >
> >> Orkney and Shetland Islands... one of his sons, Rollo, conquered
> Neustria,
> >> founded the soveirgn Duchy of Normandy & was ancestor to Wm the
> >> Conqueror....
> >
> >Or not.
(Baldwin, as above)
> >> Sigurd, 2nd earl of Orkney, was slain at Clontarf in 1014, m a dau &
> >> coheir of Malcolm II, king of Scotland,
> >
> >Not coheir. Malcolm is said to have given Caithness to Thorfinn,
OS again.
> >but Malcolm had one heir - Duncan (not even Duncan's mother, or
> >his father, jure uxoris).
Various chronicle and historical sources.
> >This, by the way, assumes that it is
> >Malcolm II being refered to, rather than Macbeth's cousin and
> >predecessor, as Hudson would have us think.
This is Benjamin Hudson. I don't have the exact cites handy -
one was a recent book (last 10 years) on Celtic Scotland, the
other an article on Cnut and the Three Kings. I am sure both
have been cited more completely in the archives. It should be
said that Hudson has not carried the field on this one.
> >> Paul, Earl of Orkney who in 1066 accompanied King Harold Hardrada in
> his
> >> ill-omened expedition against England, m the dau of Earl Haco & Princess
> >> Ragenhilda, dau of Magnus, the good king of Norway who d 1048... the
> >> descendants of this line becoming the ancestors of a branch of the royal
>
> >> family of Norway, today....
> >
> >Again, probably not, with all of the unrecognized illegitimate
> >sons returning from abroad to claim their inheritance (just like
> >Lambert Simnel, but successful).
See any history of Norway that covers the medieval royalty. I
can think of at least three previously unknown sons returning
from abroad and claiming the crown, but can't give specifics. (I
recall a reasonable set of tables in one of the Rolls Series
books covering one of the Scandinavian sources (? Orkneyinga
Saga?)
> >> The remote ancestor of William St Clair was a noble Norman Baron,
> >> descended from Waleran, (your Waldern, no doubt) Count of St Clair in
> >> Normandy,
> >
> >There was no such County in Normandy.
The counties in Pre-Conquest Normandy have been written on
extensively. A good place to start is Rob's Norman Bibliography
(the URL is on the soc.gen.med web page).
> >> by a dau of Richard, the Norman duke,
> >
> >Neither Richard I, II, nor III had a daughter who married (or had
> >a child outside of marriage by) a Waleran of St. Clair.
For all three, see Orderic, and the interpolations of Orderic and
Robert of Torigny into Gesta Normanorum Ducum. For Richard II,
see also Stasser's article on his daughter Matilda (again, in
Rob's bibliography). Eleanor Searle's book, Predatory Kinship is
also a good place to go for the genealogy of the preconquest
norman aristocracy, although she differs in some details from
some of the studied limited to analysing specific relationships
(Katherine Keats-Rohan, Kathleen Thompson, Elisabeth van Houts).
taf
Phil Moody
FWIW, do not the sagas say that Harald conquered them along with the Faroės
as part of his unification of the Norwegian realms?
PLM: The following suggests to me that Harald did not acquire the territory
until after Norway was unified. Orkney and the Hebrides could not have been
a refuge for Harald's enemies, if Harald had soverignity over this land. Are
Harald's conquests mentioned in the Irish annals?
20. HARALD SUPREME SOVEREIGN IN NORWAY.
After this battle King Harald met no opposition in Norway, for
all his opponents and greatest enemies were cut off. But some,
and they were a great multitude, fled out of the country, and
thereby great districts were peopled. Jemtaland and
Helsingjaland were peopled then, although some Norwegians had
already set up their habitation there. In the discontent that
King Harald seized on the lands of Norway, the out-countries of
Iceland and the Farey Isles were discovered and peopled. The
Northmen had also a great resort to Hjaltland (Shetland Isles)
and many men left Norway, flying the country on account of King
Harald, and went on viking cruises into the West sea. In winter
they were in the Orkney Islands and Hebrides; but marauded in
summer in Norway, and did great damage. Many, however, were the
mighty men who took service under King Harald, and became his
men, and dwelt in the land with him.
Best Wishes,
Phil
-----Original Message-----
From: Ford Mommaerts-Meulemans-Browne [mailto:smo...@peoplepc.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 5:44 PM
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Walderne de St. Clair