The origins of the Dryden Family

[Paulo Canedo]

The Dryden Family is the family of Bridget Dryden mother of Ann Marbury, the most ancient proofed ancestor of the family is William Dryden of Walton in Cumberland. The name Dryden is Scottish and in Scotland there is a family Sinclair of Dryden one branch of the great Sinclair Family in which there is a man called William Sinclair of Dryden who was almost certainly the same man as William Dryden of Walton see the evidence http://fabpedigree.com/driden.pdf. What is your opinion dear fellows of the newsgroup.

[Paulo Canedo]

Any thoughts, please.

[Tompkins, Matthew (Dr.)]

From: Paulo Canedo
Sent: 27 February 2017 14:00
> Any thoughts, please.
>

You're referring to Brian Dreadon's paper arguing that the Drydens of Canon Ashby descend from the Sinclairs of Dryden near Roslin? I'm afraid it's difficult to form a view on it as he doesn't quote from, or even cite, any of the sources he mentions.

Matt Tompkins

[thedr...@gmail.com]

Hi Matt
I may be able to help with the source material for the theory that William Dryden of Walton (the ancestor of the Canons Ashby Dryden family) was the same man as William Sinclair of Dryden.
The FabPedigree attachment is merely a short summary of the theory as more comprehensively laid out in the book “Driden, Dryden, Dreadon – the History and Mysteries of a Family Name”, first published in May 3013 & authored by Brian Dreadon.
The 2nd Edition 2016. ISBN 978 0 473 34367 5 - with electronic version available free of charge from the author (National Library of New Zealand has my contact details)

The book is 445 pages with more than half relating to the Sinclair of Dryden and Dryden family historical references in Scotland and the Scottish/English borders before and up to 1550. It is not a footnoted academic work, but many of the historical sources are detailed in the text together with the narrative. There is also a comprehensive bibliography of 7 pages listing books and archived materials.

The structuring of the Sinclair of Dryden family tree relies mainly on documents held by the National Archives of Scotland and those searches can be repeated online. Photos of the seals of Edward Sinclair 2nd of Dryden and his son Sir John Sinclair 3rd of Dryden are included, containing the engrailed cross of the Roslin Sinclairs, confirming a probable descent from Henry Sinclair 1st Earl of Orkney. The dates conclude that was through his third son William who was granted the Dryden estates for himself and his heirs somewhere before 1420.

There is no absolute proof that William Sinclair was William Dryden, but the book presents volumes of circumstantial evidence that I think are convincing. I have attempted to summarise a few of the many examples, below:

The Johannes Dridene who signed the oft-quoted document at Inchaffray Abbey in 1521 has his own chapter demonstrating how the rights of Margaret Sinclair are at stake and how she is inescapably connected to the Sinclair of Dryden family. As head of the family Sir John Sinclair of Dryden not only held some of the local lands in question, but he was under Scottish law entitled to sign himself as John Dryden. He was the older brother of William Sinclair of Dryden.

William Sinclair of Dryden and his two brothers Sir John and Patrick, were all members of the household of the Queen of Scotland Margaret Tudor. After the Queen was dispossessed of the Regency and fled to England in 1515, no more is seen of William Sinclair in the Scottish records. Many of the Scottish exiles who were allied to the “English Party” were settled in England by Thomas Lord Dacre the English Warden of the Marches. The evidence says that Walton and other properties held by the Drydens in Cumberland were all granted to them by the Dacre family and after that date.

The house of Canons Ashby in Northamptonshire built by William Dryden's grandson after 1550 displays prominently on its walls the arms of the Dacre family. Next to the Dacre arms are the arms of Charteris of Amisfield in the Scottish borders. These pictorials connect the Drydens to Lord William Dacre who was put on trial in 1534 for treason over his communciations with Robert Charteris of Amisfield and Sir Walter Scott of Buccleuch in Scotland. There is also a document of 1535 from Melrose Abbey granting Walter Scott powers as Baillie of the Abbey lands – witnessed by a Thomas Dryden. William Sinclair of Dryden's brother Patrick remained in Scotland as a favorite of the Queen Mother Margaret Tudor and later of her son James V, being a frequent emissary to the Queen's brother Henry VIII.

David Dryden, the son of William Dryden of Walton was recorded in Selkirk Scotland as late as 1536, together with his son Thomas confirmed as being 20 years old. David's marriage recorded in the Northamptonshire Visitation of 1564 lists his wife as Isabel Nicholson from Cumberland in England, who on these dates must more logically must have been from the Nicolson merchant family of Aberdeen and Edinburgh in Scotland. That is the same family whose heir acquired the Dryden estates near Edinburgh from the current John Sinclair of Dryden in 1591. It appears to be no accident that most of the border and English Drydens of the early 1500s also appear as merchants.

There are many more threads of evidence that demonstrate the close connections between William Dryden of Walton in Cumberland and the activities of the Scottish Sinclair of Dryden family. And as the Sinclairs of Dryden are the only known family in Scotland that can be proven to have used the Dryden name singly and collectively in Scotland before the1530s, there seems to be no plausible alternative explanation for the origin of William Dryden of Walton, the declared ancestor of the Dryden of Canons Ashby family.

[Kelsey Jackson Williams]

Dear Paulo,

A cursory glance at the evidence given, such as it is, seems to suggest to me that this is just another "the name's sort of the same" piece of wishful thinking. It's prima facie very unlikely that an early sixteenth-century Scot would drop their surname in favour of the name of their family estate, then move across the border, then completely change their arms. Without something more substantial than the very weak circumstantial evidence provided, I'd be inclined to say that the real origin of the Drydens lies in a family of Cumberland yeomen, not Scottish gentry.

All the best,
Kelsey

[Vance Mead]

There was at least one man named Dryden in the North of England in the first half of the 15th century:


http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no677/aCP40no677fronts/IMG_0748.htm
Easter term 1430
Last entry: John Dryden, of York, mariner, one of the defendants, for a debt of 8 marks

Possibly this is the same man in the Medieval Soldier database:

John Dryden, yeoman, archer, expedition France under Captain Richard Alder in 1420.

[Tompkins, Matthew (Dr.)]

> From: Paulo Canedo
> Sent: 27 February 2017 14:00
>>> Any thoughts, please.
>>>
>
On Tuesday, February 28, 2017 at 3:23:46 AM UTC+13, Tompkins, Matthew (Dr.) wrote:
>> You're referring to Brian Dreadon's paper arguing that the Drydens of Canon Ashby descend from the Sinclairs of Dryden near Roslin? I'm afraid it's difficult to form a view on it as he doesn't quote from, or even cite, any of the sources he mentions.
>>
>> Matt Tompkins

-------------------------------
Thank you for that explanation, Brian.

I have to say that, like Kelsey, I read the Fab Pedigree summary with a certain feeling of scepticism, which your post hasn't really assuaged. The problem is that it all depends on the detailed evidence. Would you post some of it to the list? I appreciate that you've amassed an entire book of material, but perhaps you could post just the evidence on the two points which seem to me be crucial:

1. the claim that the Sinclairs of Dryden sometimes appeared by the surname Dryden in Scottish records

2. the first appearance of the Drydens in Cumberland records.

t would also be interesting to hear more about lord Dacre settling other Scottish adherents of Queen Margaret in the West March.

Matt Tompkins

[Kelsey Jackson Williams]

For what it's worth, I looked into this briefly earlier and it seems to me that what we have is something along these lines.

Walter Metcalfe's edition of _The Visitations of Northamptonshire made in 1564 and 1618-19_ (London, 1887) contains an appendix of additional pedigrees taken from various Harleian MSS in the BL. In keeping with the era and the editor, these are inadequately referenced so it's not clear where any individual pedigree came from, but we can at least get a sense of the date of their composition by which individuals seem to have been the heads of families at the time. One of these pedigrees covers the Drydens of Copes Ashby and runs as follows:

William Dryden of Walton, co. Cumberland = . . .

David Dryden of Staff Hill, co. Cumberland = Isabell, da. of William Nicholson of Staff Hill

1. John, of whom below.
2. Thomas
Ann
Isabell, ux. Thomas Warwick of co. Cumb., gent.

John Dryden of Copes Ashbie, co. North'ton = Elizabeth, da. of Sir John Cope of Copes Ashbie

1. John of Copes Ashbie
2. Erasmus
3. Edward
4. George
5. John
Mary
Elizabeth

Their arms are given as "Azure, a lion rampant and in chief a sphere between two estoiles Or".

As a glance at Baker's _History and Antiquities of the County of Northampton (1844)_, ii. 6, shows, the pedigree errs in naming John's first son as John rather than Anthony, but otherwise seems to accord pretty well with what's known of this family. In terms of dating it, it certainly seems to date from before John's death in 1584 and I'm inclined to think that the absence of his younger sons Thomas, Stephen, and Nicholas, and his younger daughters Bridget and Emma, put it even earlier, say the 1560s. If that holds, we're looking at fairly contemporary evidence of what John Dryden, grandson of the supposed Sinclair of Dryden, thought his family looked like. No Sinclairs are present.

In addition to this, an 1897 article from the _Transactions of the Cumberland and Westmorland Antiquarian and Archaeological Society_ (xiv. 223) cites an "old writing remaining in the family" as evidence that Sir Erasmus Dryden, son of John above, also owned land in the parish of Cumwhitton, Cumberland. The author of the article goes on to observe that the surname Dryden appears in the parish registers of the nearby parishes of Brampton, Lanercost, and Walton. The last is no doubt identical to the Walton from which William Dryden is stated to have sprung in the Harleian pedigree.

That Dryden was hardly an unknown name in Cumberland is evidenced by the following wills and inventories from the probate documents of the Diocese of Carlisle:
1571 - Thomas Dryden of Cumwhitton
1618 - Thomas Dryden of Cumwhitton
1630 - Christopher Dryden of Walton
1639 - Jeffrey Dryden of Hillhouse, Walton
1664 - David Dryden of Cumwhitton
1667 - Thomas Dryden of Stockdalewath
etc.

None of this entirely rules out a connection to the Sinclairs of Dryden, but nor does it remotely point in that direction. Surely a better approach would be to systematically examine the surviving Cumbrian records rather than focusing on a tenuous link between this family and the owner of a Scottish estate with the same name?

All the best,
Kelsey

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

I have a personal interest in this discussion. My great-great-grandmother, Ellen Dryden, is a member of the Dryden family long situated in Roxburghshire, Scotland, just over the border from England. As far as I know, her family was active in Roxburghshire back as far as at least 1400, and probably much earlier. I assume that she is related to the Dryden family of Canons Ashby, Northamptonshire and Walton, Cumberland. I have no reason to think she has any connection to the Sinclair family.

My impression of the person who hatched the Dryden-Sinclair theory is that they have advanced any small scrap of evidence to support their theory, while meanwhile ignoring or suppressing evidence which would disprove their theory.

Just so the facts are clearly stated:

The Dryden family has been situated on the borders of England and Scotland for centuries.

As far as the possible Sinclair connection is concerned, I wish to state that I definitely believe in the tooth fairy.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

[thedr...@gmail.com]

Hi Matt,
I'd like to thank you and the others who have already commented on this thread. I have previously found it very difficult to get a debate going on these very details with people learned in the area. It is quite encouraging. I have already picked up some new information which would cause me to re-appraise aspects of my theory of a Scottish descent for my particular Dryden family.

Just for some background. I am a retired person and not a professional historian or genealogist. My book (or rather the second half) is an intended record of my own family descent from Canons Ashby in Northamptonshire to Cornwall and on to New Zealand, written for a family reunion in New Zealand held in 2015. I have however studied some history including medieval land law and was educated as a lawyer. That has helped me a little.

Our spelling variant of Dreadon is one of many and originates within the Dryden family cousins in Warwickshire in the 1590s and then continued in Cornwall from 1538. However, depending on the village and the register, our family in Cornwall also has commonly used Draydon and Dryden as spellings - and all still exist in Australia and New Zealand.

Back to the theories - and note that my book attempts to follow the origin of the Dryden name from the earliest records in Scotland and then to follow its expansion down through England and out to the world. It doesn't pretend to solve all the origin mysteries and I do encourage challenges. It is a book that has already been rewritten and can be updated with newly gained knowledge and conclusions - as can be done again. But please remember it is just my personal attempt at explaining the origins of my own family and family name. There will be errors, mistakes and omissions in research.

People may not realise that there were also at least one location named Dryden in Tynedale Northumberland, very near to where members of the Dryden family were located in the 1538 muster - and my book also discusses the possibility of a name origin from that location. The new information (thanks to Vance Mead)is of the Dryden name existing in England back as far as 1420. That does indeed add a serious complication to my theory of a Scottish descent for ALL the Dryden families - raising the consequent point as to whether all branches of the family have the one common origin? I had personally concluded that was likely, but of course it is still not certain.

We have opened up a huge number of questions in a few short comments amd it would be impossible for me to answer all immediately - even if I could do so adequately. I suggest that anyone who wants a copy of my book to email me on thedr...@clear.net.nz and I will send them an electronic copy. I can then point out any pages of relevance to specific questions. It would be easier for me if a questioner had read the information I have compiled first.

The three questions you pose.

I think another poster has already listed the earliest Cumberland records which seem to start with Thomas Dryden of Cumwhitton in 1571. It is well documented that he was the second son of David Dryden and both feature in the Pedigree from the Northamptonshire Visitation. Leaving aside the new (to me) mention of English Drydens from York in the 1400s, it seems clear from the records that the Drydens appeared in Northumberland before Cumberland. There is the record of Thomas Dryden the merchant in Alnmouth in 1527-8 and the Northumberland muster records of 1538 that list in various locations from the boreder to Tyndale, David, Richard, Andrew and William Dryden.

There is also another record of "Roger" Dridon in Yorkshire beginning from 1539. It is that "outlier" from Yorkshire and the earlier evidence just presented that bring up a compelling suggestion of another "English" origin for the family name? A new avenue to explore?

On the claim that the Sinclair of Dryden family used the Dryden name - I refer you to the case of Johannes Dridene of Inchaffray in 1521. Chapter 10 has a discussion of why he is most likely to have been Sir John Sinclair of Dryden. There are other instances of the same man being described as Sir John de Dryden see "The Saint-Clairs of the Isles" by Roland Saint-Clair 1898 who quotes a record of him being described as Sir John of Dryden in 1502.

That takes me to the concept of a "genealogical second surname" which is alive and well in Scotland. I refer you to Sir Thomas Innes of Learney who as Lord Lyon the heraldic authority in Scotland has described how various branches of the same family or clan can distinguish themselves by adding the name of their estates. It becomes a legal part of their name and can even be legally shorted to the name of the estate. William Sinclair of Roslin as the head of the family could describe himself aas William Roslin and John Sinclair of Dryden could sign himself as John of Dryden (John de Dryden) or plain John Dryden (as he appears to have done in 1521).

I found that I need to acquire some knowldge of how and when family names were acquired in Scotland before I could deal with the nuances in the Sinclair-Dryden debate. In summary, many early Scottish family had an "hereditary territorial designation', often taken froma previous residence in Flanders or France. Balliol, Weir, Bruce and even St Clair (from St Clair-sur-Epte). Then there followed a later situation where members of the same family might use a "personal terrirtorial designation" such as Sinclair of Roslin or Sinclair of Dryden - with the head of that family acquirig the right to call himself after his estates. All these variations had a chance of becoming a later "family" name.

In the case of Dryden it was first "de Dryden" - still retaining the link to the location of Dryden. And then it shortened to Dryden. A precise example of that latter change can be seen when following the records of Lawrence de Dryden of Perth. The many historical records of his name were all (in various spellings) written as "de Dryden" until 1456 and as "Dryden from that precise year. His only child was a daughter Agnes who continued with the Dryden family name.

On the question of Lord Dacre actually settling Scottish exiles, I will need to take time to delve a bit more. I have immediately found one reference that relate to Dacre being funded by the English ambassador Dr Magnus for repairs to Wark Castle and to the "entertaining " of such gentlemen of Scotland as be at war and out of favour of the Regent of Scotland. Dated 1517. There is of course the death of Gavin Douglas, a prominent meber of the Scottish "English" party to which the Sinclair of Drydens belonged - Douglas died in 1522 at Dacre's house in London.

Of more recent interest for our family is the previously mentioned uncovering of original wall decoration by the National Trust at Canons Ashby House in Northamptonshire. The house was built by William Dryden's grandson John from 1550 to 1584 (and continued its expansion under his son Erasmus). One room contains a large number of panels with coats of arms of allied families - mostly English. By use of an extended family tree showing marriages and cousins, most of the famiies can be connected by marriage to the Dryden and Cope families.

Of particular note are four coats of arms presented with their crests. They appear to represent the four grandparents of John Dryden and his wife Elizabeth Cope, being Dryden, Cope, and Raleigh. But the fourth arms of the "set" is puzzling as it is the arms of the Dacre family from Cumberland. In that context it raises the possibility that John Dryden's father David remarried to a member of the Dacre family. That is a tempting conclusion as it would also explain the location of David Dryden at Staffol (Staffield) in Cumberland which was a manor held by the Dacre family. It would also explain the Dryden family inheritance in Cumberland at Cumwhitton rather than Staffield itself. Suggestions, but not conclusions I might add.

Just a final point on the assertion that the Drydens were Yeomen from Cumberland. This assertion has been long made in various biographies of the poet laureate John Dryden but has also been much criticised - see comments of Arthur Collins in The Baronetage from 1720 where he points out that the Dryden's did not inherit the Manor of Canons Ashby from his wife's family and how John Dryden was quite independently wealthy. Collins considered it unlikely that Sir John Cope would have married his daughter to a person in low circumstances. I muight also add that the Northamptonshire pedigree has the two marriages of that generation into families of the gentry. John Dryden to Elizabeth Cope and John's sister Isabel to Thomas Warwick a gentleman of County Cumberland.

Thanks again for the questioning and raising of contestable points. I belive that it's how we all learn and hopefully make progress on undertanding the origins of the Dryden family name.

Regards, Brian Dreadon

[Vance Mead]

Here's another record from Common Pleas, this one from 1529:

http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H8/CP40no1060/aCP40no1060fronts/IMG_5903.htm
Hilary term, 1529
First entry:
Norfolk. William Grene versus Thomas Drydon, of Ailmouth (or Alnmouth?), Northumb, yeoman, and others, for debt of 100 pounds from each of them.

[Kelsey Jackson Williams]

Dear Brian,

There are many different points raised in your recent post and I'm only going to attempt to address one here: the naming practices of the late medieval and early modern Scottish gentry. You're right that many Scottish families derived their surnames from an ancestral landholding; examples include the Sinclairs, the Maules, the Lindsays, the Leslies, etc., etc. In documents up to about the fifteenth century it's pretty common to see the Latin formulation "de x de y", e.g., "Patricius de Maule de Panmure", where the first part is a hereditary surname and the second is the name of their present estate. As the fifteenth century wore into the sixteenth, the first de/of tended to be dropped and the ordinary form became "Patricius Maule de Panmure". Once again, the first part being a hereditary surname, the second being a _non-hereditary_ territorial designation.

You're also right that in some cases a man might be referred to by the name of his estate. We're all familiar with the way in which peers might simply sign themselves "Dundonald" or "Angus" or "Argyll", rather than so-and-so, the earl of such-and-such. This was also the case with the Scottish gentry, really up to the beginning of the twentieth century. Our test-case Patrick Maule might well sign his letters simply "Panmure". What he _wouldn't_ do, though, would be to sign them "Patrick of Panmure". That sort of name has no place in early modern Scotland.

This takes me to your citation of Roland William Saint-Clair’s _The Saint-Clairs of the Isles_ (p. 296 for those interested) in support of John Sinclair of Dryden being referred to in a contemporary document as "Sir John of Dryden, knight". While the text provides no citation for the statement that "in 1502 . . . he is styled Sir John of Dryden, knight", a little bit of digging reveals that the document referred to is, in fact, an item in the _Exchequer Rolls of Scotland_, xii. 47, dated 20 July 1502. To clarify matters, I'll quote it in full:

"Et eidem de firmis dominicalium de Houstoun cum molendino extendentibus ad triginita quinque libras sexdecim solidos, assignatis Johanni Sinclair de Dridane militi ad vitam per cartam regis sub magno sigillo, de termino compoti, xvij li. xviij s."

As you can see, Roland William Saint-Clair was just sloppily paraphrasing the original document, which quite clearly identifies its man as "John Sinclair of Dridane, knight".

I’d now like to turn to the 1521 charter you’ve mentioned. This was published at pp. xvcii-xcviii of William Alexander Lindsay, John Dowden, and J. M. Thomson’s Charters, Bulls, and Other Documents Relating to the Abbey of Inchaffray_ (Edinburgh, 1908). It’s a lease from Alexander, Commendator of Inchaffray (i.e., secular landlord of the abbey) and the convent to Robert Row, son and heir of the late John Row in Dunblane and his assignees of the fruits (teinds, etc.,) of Kilbride for nineteen years in exchange for £10 rent at the usual terms. It is dated 18 July 1521 at Inchaffray. Now what’s interesting is the end of the document. It’s _witnessed_ by Sir Maurice Johnston, chaplain, Sir David Dow, Fynlaw Smyth, and William Pollok. However, it’s _signed_ by:

“Alex., Commendator of Inchaffray.
et ego Antonius Hog.
et ego Vilelmus kelt
Archebaldus Jonstone.
Johannes Dridene.
Johs. Neyll.
ego Robertus Fowllar.
ego Johannes Maneris.
ego Johannes Gray.
ego Jacobus Gardnar.
ego Jacobus Rannauldson.
ego Johannes Fargow.”

Now I could certainly be wrong, and would be very happy to be corrected if so, but it looks to me as if the persons who signed after the commendator were the monks of Inchaffray, or a selection thereof. As such, while you’re absolutely right that the Johannes Dridene named is interesting early evidence of this surname, there’s no way he could be the same person as the well-attested layman Sir John Sinclair of Dryden.

All the best,
Kelsey

[Paulo Canedo]

There is a document by King James IV in 1489 that says "To John Drydane, William Drydane, Archibald Drydane and others, indwellers within the shire of Roxburgh,
of rancor of heart, royal suit, and all actions for treasonable offences against him in the field and battle near
Strieuelin, on St Barnabas day last". Those men were probably Sinclairs of Dryden and giben the connection to Roxburgshire there is a possibility that your family is connected to the Sinclair of Dryden.

[Paulo Canedo]

There is a good evidence that William Dryden was the same as William Sinclair. William Dryden's lands were previously of Thomas Dacre and Thomas Dacre had worked with William Sinclair's brother and possibly with William Sinclair himself. And it doesn't seem likely that the Dryden Family of Cumberland were just yeomen, they were probably either gentlemen or esquires.

[taf]

On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 10:22:54 AM UTC-7, Paulo Canedo wrote:
> There is a good evidence that William Dryden was the same as William
> Sinclair. William Dryden's lands were previously of Thomas Dacre and
> Thomas Dacre had worked with William Sinclair's brother and possibly
> with William Sinclair himself.

How is this evidence that they were the same? It is not like they are holding the same land. Dryden is holding land previously held by someone who interacted with the Sinclairs, but to take the next step and conclude that this suggests Dryden was a Sinclair seems a bit of a leap.

taf

[Paulo Canedo]

What I'm suggesting is that the lands were a payment for his work.

[Kelsey Jackson Williams]

Dear Paulo,

As I've tried to explain, this isn't how Scottish surnames and territorial designations work. These men were not Sinclairs, but rather probably derived their surname ultimately from the place name "Dryden" which appears in the parish of Roberton in Roxburghshire. Nor is the supposed link with Thomas Dacre anything like enough evidence to suggest that there is some sort of connection. By that logic, because John Dryden the poet knew Thomas Hobbes and Thomas Hobbes in turn knew John Aubrey (the antiquary), John Dryden and John Aubrey are the same person (which, to clarify, is not the case).

All the best,
Kelsey

[Paulo Canedo]

I think there is a good reason why William Sinclair would move to England, he was of the pro english faction in Scotland whether he was William Dryden or not is another question.

[Kelsey Jackson Williams]

On Thursday, 16 March 2017 22:06:11 UTC, Paulo Canedo wrote:
> I think there is a good reason why William Sinclair would move to England, he was of the pro english faction in Scotland whether he was William Dryden or not is another question.

Dear Paulo,

Hmmm - maybe. While some of the Scottish lords on the out did temporarily flee to England in this period, as far as I know none actually settled there. Of course, there could be exceptions. More to the point, though: what firm evidence is there that William Sinclair, brother of Sir John Sinclair of Dryden, left Scotland? I'd be more inclined to suppose that he was the William Sinclair who was dead by 14 December 1526 when his widow Agnes Forest had the gift of the ward of the eight oxgang of land of Mungellis, Stirlingshire, which was forfeited by John Stirling of Keir for treason and lese majeste (_Reg. Sec. Sig., 1488-1529_, no. 3575). Just a conjecture . . . .

All the best,
Kelsey

[Vance Mead]

It seems to me that all of this is starting at the wrong end. Am I right in thinking that the earliest known ancestor of the Drydens in England is William Dryden, of Walton, Cumberland? No dates are given in the Visitation, but he must have been alive somewhere around 1450-1520 (this is not an estimate of his lifetime, just a guess as to when he might have been alive).

If he was the lord of the manor, them he might be found in IPMs, patent rolls, close rolls etc. If he was a yeoman, then he might be in manorial records, but there are only some accounts for Walton Wood manor, 1500-30.

[Paulo Canedo]

Here are the reasons why those three men may have been Sinclairs of Dryden. The brothers John Sinclair of Dryden and William Sinclair of Dryden are the only known brothers of the epoch with that kind of names. They were of royal suit by James IV and maybe also of James III since their cousins Chisholm were of royal suit by James III so this strongs the connection don't you think.

[Tompkins, Matthew (Dr.)]

From: Paulo Canedo [paulorica...@gmail.com]
Sent: 16 March 2017 22:06

>
> I think there is a good reason why William Sinclair would move to England, he was of the pro english faction in Scotland whether he was William Dryden or not is another question.
>

-------------------------------
Scots who moved to England permanently were supposed to obtain letters of denization, especially if they wanted to own land (which aliens were not permitted to do). Of course some never bothered, but you'd expect someone of William Sinclair's status to do it the right way. Letters of denization were recorded on the Patent Rolls, which for the period around 1510 have been published in the Letters and Papers of Henry VIII series - it would be worth looking through them for William Sinclair, or searching in the England's Immigrants on-line database, which includes CPR records of denization.

I just had a quick look at the database and didn't findany Sinclairs, but I couldn't be bothered to try all the possible variant spellings. I did find a Scottish John Dryden, chaplain, who obtained denization in 1481:

https://www.englandsimmigrants.com/document/1754

Matt Tompkins

[Kelsey Jackson Williams]

Dear Paulo,

Actually there are some very good reasons why these men are not Sinclairs of Dryden. I've struggled to find a digitised version of volume 2 of the _Seventh Report of the Royal Commission on Historical Manuscripts_ where the abstract of this document was published, but the following web-based transcription (found at http://www.douglashistory.co.uk/history/Documents/Papers_of_James_Douglas_Esq_of_Cavers.htm#.WMwjxxLyjVo) should do us for a start:

Letters patent of Remission by King James the Fourth, under the great seal, to William
Dowglas of Caveris, William Dowglas of Denbray, George Dowglas, William Dowglas,
Thomas Brown, Patrick Runsyman, Peter Don, John Drydane, William Drydane, Archibald
Drydane, James Hardy, John Henryson, John Langlandis, Robert Buky, James Buky, Adam
Dowglas, David Dowglas, Adam Dowglas, Thomas Patonsoun, James Langlandis of
Wiltoun, John Cavirhill, John Long in Denbray, William Dowglas in Hornishole, Patrick
Camroun, and Simon Glendunwyn, indwellers within the shire of Roxburgh, of rancor of
heart, royal suit and all action which he could have against them for their treasonable
appearance against him in the field and battle near Striuelin, on St Barnabas' day last by
past, and for all other crimes and actions done by them to the date hereof, treason against
the King's person, murder and homicide committed on forethought felony, from the time of
the King's coronation, excepted; provided they so satisfied parties complaining, and who had
suffered loss, that the King should have no just complaint thereanent: taking them under his
firm peace and protection, to endure for their lifetimes, and discharging all persons from
molesting them under pain of forfeit, or causing their death under pain of loss of life and
limbs. Jedworth 10 February 1488[/89].

Let's take things one at a time. These are standard letters of remission: documents prepared by the royal administration basically letting people off for something illegal they'd done previously. In this case, the new king James IV is remitting folk who'd served under his father James III when the latter matched up against the former, reluctantly at the head of a rebel army, at the Battle of Sauchieburn near Stirling, on 11 June 1488.

You'll notice that these letters are granted to a group of people, with James Douglas of Cavers heading the list. This was a fairly standard practice, especially when trying to bring erstwhile "rebels" back into the fold and we would expect the folk named after Douglas of Cavers to be his kinsmen and retainers. The local nature of this remission is emphasised by the clause "indwellers within the shire of Roxburgh". _All_ of these men were Roxburghshire locals.

So why can't John and William Drydane be Sinclairs? Well, as I've already said, their surname isn't Sinclair, it was Drydane, but if you'd like more proof than that: (1) they were evidently retainers of Douglas of Cavers; the Sinclairs of Dryden were not. (2) they were inhabitants of Roxburghshire in the borders; the Sinclairs of Dryden lived near Lasswade in Midlothian. There is literally no reason _whatsoever_ to associate these men with the Sinclairs of Dryden or any other Sinclairs. As I've said before, they and other Roxburghshire Drydens probably derived their surname from the place of that name in the parish of Roberton and have _no_ connection to the Sinclairs who owned the estate of Dryden in Midlothian.

All best wishes,
Kelsey

[Paulo Canedo]

Isn't there the possibility that they just owned some land in Roxburghshire but were not from there.

[Kelsey Jackson Williams]

No - "indweller" means a resident or inhabitant. It wouldn't be applied to an absentee landlord.

All the best,
Kelsey

[thedr...@gmail.com]

Hi Kelsey,

Thanks for the reply and the extra research on Sir John Sinclair de Dryden.
Appreciated - and I feel that despite the one step back it was still two steps forward on (at least one of)the origin(s) of the Dryden name from the Sinclair estates.
Let's go back to Inchaffray.

I agree with your analysis up to the point of confirming Johannes Dryden was necessarily a monk.
It might be true, but there is an equally convincing argument that he was indeed Sir John Sinclair of Dryden.

This requires a bit more digging and a bit more knowledge of the extended Sinclair of Dryden family.
Yoyu may know that Sir John had among his various holding "Banks of Row" that existed in this precise area.

I'll include an extract from chapter 10 of my book that should advance the matter a little further. The explantion is much wider still and I will be happy to answer any more specific questions.

The Inchaffray document is one of several contained in the Scottish History publications and needs to be read in conjunction with other documents in the same publication that explain who the various actors appear to be.

Sorry again that I am not coping with this format very well.. but hopefully it makes sense

From page 92 ...
"The signature of Johannes Dridene sits on one of nine charters listed within the same book in an introductory piece headed by the highly appropriate words:
“The following from Mr Lyndsay's notes on the later Inchaffray deeds are given to illustrate the value of such documents for pedigree purposes ...”

The first four of the charters dated 1491 contain a grant of the teinds (tithes) from Kilbryde church near Dunblane to John of Row and his assignees. In the process the successive charters give a history of the Row family of Dunblane and Callentoyes and it is indeed possible to follow the marriages and heirs of the Row family for a number of generations. Happily the charters when read together also reveal something more about the family of Johannes Dridene and why his signature might be attached to the Inchaffray charter of 1521. The accompanying summary highlighted (with my bolding) reads:

“Lease by Alexander, Commendator of Inchaffray and convent, to Robert Row son and heir of the late John Row in Dunblane and his assignees, viz (Margaret his spouse, struck out), Sir Dennis Row, John of Row and failing them to Thomas Row and James Row, of the fruit (teinds etc) of Kilbride for nineteen years from the date of the deed.”
Dated 18 July 1521. Among the signatures – Johannes Dridene

Then the following lease of 1544 adds some extra pivotal Row family information:
“Lease by Gauine [Gavin] Archbishop of Glasgow, commendator of Inchaffray and convent, to Margaret Sinclair, relict of Robert Row of Callentoyes and Robert Row their son and heir apparent, whom failing to Margaret's assignees, viz. Elizabeth Cheisholm her daughter, of the church of Kilbride for nineteen years.” Dated 14 January 1544.”

The central information added to the 1521 charter is that Robert Row's wife, mother of his son Robert and later his relict (widow) is named as Margaret Sinclair. She has been previously (or perhaps later) married to a Chisholm and she appears to have just the one daughter by that other marriage.
If there is any doubt that it was John Sinclair de Driden as the head of that family witnessing a charter on behalf of his own family's interests, there are number of other elements that make that conclusion quite convincing.

Margaret Sinclair the wife of Robert Row in the 1521 lease and his widow in the 1544 lease, had a daughter from another marriage named Elizabeth Chisholm. Any Chisholm husband in this area of Scotland is almost certain to be from the family of Edmund Chisholm of Cromlix near Dunblane, as he was the only member of the Chisholm family to arrive from Roxburghshire where the Chisholms were originally seated.
Edmund Chisholm married first Margaret Sinclair de Driden, the aunt of Sir John Sinclair de Driden. He then married as his second wife Janet Drummond. A Chisholm husband to the Margaret Sinclair of this charter of 1521 would need to have been a grandson of Edmund Chisholm. Not only a grandson, but a probable son of either Sir James Chisholm the 2nd of Cromlix or his brother William Chisholm."

The chapter explains a bit more about Robert Row having been a previous holder of "Banks of Row".
Remember also the snippet that the Inchaffray Commendator Alexasnder Stewart was also a cousin to Sir John Sinclair of Dryden (being a son of Catherine Sinclair of Roslin - and declared illegitmate in order to remove him from his place in the Scottish succession).

Thanks again for querying various of my points and taaking me to task in a considered manner.
I have found that many of the critics of this theory of Sinclair of Dryden descent are very stubborn in their insistence that it cant be true - without taking the time to consider the substantial information that is now available relating to the Sinclair of Dryden family. I beleive it is well worth considering bbefore saying "it is not possible".

For the future the next Dryden reference we might debate is that of the three Draydanes pardoned in 1488 - or rather listed in the pardon of William Douglas of Cavers.
It is an interesting (but not conclusive) exercise to ask whether those three Drydanes were in fact Sinclair of Drydanes.

There are numerous connections between the two families of Cavers and Dryden that might assist.
Both had supported James III before Sauchieburn - John Ramsay Lord Bothwell the King's favourite was the step-son of Margaret Sinclair of Dryden who later married the aforementioned Edmund Sinclair of Cromlix. Ramsay was also in exile in England and an Eglish agent on his return to the Scottish court.

William Sinclair of Dryden's younger brother Patrick later married the widow of Batholomew Glendonwyn - whose father is also mentioned in this pardon.
Patrick (according to Roland Saint Clair - & I confess not further researched) was apparrently Sheriff of Roxburghshire in 1517. It was the Douglas of Cavers family who were hereditary Sheriffs of Roxburghshire and when Sir Wiliam died in 1506 he left a 6 year old heir James.

Various members of the Douglas family became sheriff during his minority including George Douglas of Bon Jedward in 1509 and 1514. George Dougklas is also mentioned in the pardon.

Yes, there is a LOT to discuss - which is why I would prefer it that people read up on the background of the Sinclair of Dryden family first.
Three brothers were part of the royal household of James IV. Sir John was an envoy to France and Patrick to England. Both Patrick and William were members of the King's jousting team.
When the Scottish Queen fled to England in 1515 she was accompanied by some "servants" (William Sinclair was the usher to the Queen's Chamber).

It was Patrick Sinclair's brother-in-law Lord Home who organised the escape and got the pregnant Queen to the border - and several of the Scottish lords who met with Lord Dacre in Harbottle castle in Northumberland included other Sinclair of Dryden relatives - including James Hamilton Earl of Arran, Lord Home and Dand Ker. (Andrew Ker of Cessford was married to Agnes Crichton the widow of George Sinclair the Roslin heir - and thoughtto be the daughter of Crichton of Cranston Riddell, cousins to the Sinclair of Drydens)

Most central of all are their connections to the Queen's houshold and involvement in the "English party"- Patrick Sinclair is the most documented as a regular envoy for Queen Margaret and her son James V to Henry VIII of England.
Through Patrick it can bedemonstrated an intimate connection of the "Drydens" to Henry VII, Wolsey and Thomas Dacre in Cross border affairs.

But enough for now.

regards
Brian





On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 10:44:07 PM UTC+13, Kelsey Jackson Williams wrote: > Dear Brian, > > There are many different points raised in your recent post and I'm only going to attempt to address one here: the naming practices of the late medieval and early modern Scottish gentry. You're right that many Scottish families derived their surnames from an ancestral landholding; examples include the Sinclairs, the Maules, the Lindsays, the Leslies, etc., etc. In documents up to about the fifteenth century it's pretty common to see the Latin formulation "de x de y", e.g., "Patricius de Maule de Panmure", where the first part is a hereditary surname and the second is the name of their present estate. As the fifteenth century wore into the sixteenth, the first de/of tended to be dropped and the ordinary form became "Patricius Maule de Panmure". Once again, the first part being a hereditary surname, the second being a _non-hereditary_ territorial designation. > > You're also right that in some cases a man might be referred to by the name of his estate. We're all familiar with the way in which peers might simply sign themselves "Dundonald" or "Angus" or "Argyll", rather than so-and-so, the earl of such-and-such. This was also the case with the Scottish gentry, really up to the beginning of the twentieth century. Our test-case Patrick Maule might well sign his letters simply "Panmure". What he _wouldn't_ do, though, would be to sign them "Patrick of Panmure". That sort of name has no place in early modern Scotland. > > This takes me to your citation of Roland William Saint-Clair’s _The Saint-Clairs of the Isles_ (p. 296 for those interested) in support of John Sinclair of Dryden being referred to in a contemporary document as "Sir John of Dryden, knight". While the text provides no citation for the statement that "in 1502 . . . he is styled Sir John of Dryden, knight", a little bit of digging reveals that the document referred to is, in fact, an item in the _Exchequer Rolls of Scotland_, xii. 47, dated 20 July 1502. To clarify matters, I'll quote it in full: > > "Et eidem de firmis dominicalium de Houstoun cum molendino extendentibus ad triginita quinque libras sexdecim solidos, assignatis Johanni Sinclair de Dridane militi ad vitam per cartam regis sub magno sigillo, de termino compoti, xvij li. xviij s." > > As you can see, Roland William Saint-Clair was just sloppily paraphrasing the original document, which quite clearly identifies its man as "John Sinclair of Dridane, knight". > > I’d now like to turn to the 1521 charter you’ve mentioned. This was published at pp. xvcii-xcviii of William Alexander Lindsay, John Dowden, and J. M. Thomson’s Charters, Bulls, and Other Documents Relating to the Abbey of Inchaffray_ (Edinburgh, 1908). It’s a lease from Alexander, Commendator of Inchaffray (i.e., secular landlord of the abbey) and the convent to Robert Row, son and heir of the late John Row in Dunblane and his assignees of the fruits (teinds, etc.,) of Kilbride for nineteen years in exchange for £10 rent at the usual terms. It is dated 18 July 1521 at Inchaffray. Now what’s interesting is the end of the document. It’s _witnessed_ by Sir Maurice Johnston, chaplain, Sir David Dow, Fynlaw Smyth, and William Pollok. However, it’s _signed_ by: > > “Alex., Commendator of Inchaffray. > et ego Antonius Hog. > et ego Vilelmus kelt > Archebaldus Jonstone. > Johannes Dridene. > Johs. Neyll. > ego Robertus Fowllar. > ego Johannes Maneris. > ego Johannes Gray. > ego Jacobus Gardnar. > ego Jacobus Rannauldson. > ego Johannes Fargow.” > > Now I could certainly be wrong, and would be very happy to be corrected if so, but it looks to me as if the persons who signed after the commendator were the monks of Inchaffray, or a selection thereof. As such, while you’re absolutely right that the Johannes Dridene named is interesting early evidence of this surname, there’s no way he could be the same person as the well-attested layman Sir John Sinclair of Dryden. > > All the best, > Kelsey > > > On Thursday, 16 March 2017 02:03:20 UTC, thedr...@gmail.com wrote: > > On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 1:04:34 AM UTC+13, Tompkins, Matthew (Dr.) wrote: > > > > From: Paulo Canedo > > > > Sent: 27 February 2017 14:00 > > > >>> Any thoughts, please. > > > >>> > > > > > > > On Tuesday, February 28, 2017 at 3:23:46 AM UTC+13, Tompkins, Matthew (Dr.) wrote: > > > >> You're referring to Brian Dreadon's paper arguing that the Drydens of Canon Ashby descend from the Sinclairs of Dryden near Roslin? I'm afraid it's difficult to form a view on it as he doesn't quote from, or even cite, any of the sources he mentions. > > > >> > > > >> Matt Tompkins > > > > > > > > > From: thedr...@gmail.com [thedr...@gmail.com] > > > Sent: 15 March 2017 02:49 > > > > Hi Matt > > > > I may be able to help with the source material for the theory that William Dryden of Walton (the ancestor of the Canons Ashby Dryden family) was the same man as William Sinclair of Dryden. > > > The FabPedigree attachment is merely a short summary of the theory as more comprehensively laid out in the book “Driden, Dryden, Dreadon – the History and Mysteries of a Family Name”, first published in May 3013 & authored by Brian Dreadon. > > > The 2nd Edition 2016. ISBN 978 0 473 34367 5 - with electronic version available free of charge from the author (National Library of New Zealand has my contact details) > > > > > > > > The book is 445 pages with more than half relating to the Sinclair of Dryden and Dryden family historical references in Scotland and the Scottish/English borders before and up to 1550. It is not a footnoted academic work, but many of the historical sources are detailed in the text together with the narrative. There is also a comprehensive bibliography of 7 pages listing books and archived materials. > > > > > > > > The structuring of the Sinclair of Dryden family tree relies mainly on documents held by the National Archives of Scotland and those searches can be repeated online. Photos of the seals of Edward Sinclair 2nd of Dryden and his son Sir John Sinclair 3rd of Dryden are included, containing the engrailed cross of the Roslin Sinclairs, confirming a probable descent from Henry Sinclair 1st Earl of Orkney. The dates conclude that was through his third son William who was granted the Dryden estates for himself and his heirs somewhere before 1420. > > > > > > > > There is no absolute proof that William Sinclair was William Dryden, but the book presents volumes of circumstantial evidence that I think are convincing. I have attempted to summarise a few of the many examples, below: > > > > > > > > The Johannes Dridene who signed the oft-quoted document at Inchaffray Abbey in 1521 has his own chapter demonstrating how the rights of Margaret Sinclair are at stake and how she is inescapably connected to the Sinclair of Dryden family. As head of the family Sir John Sinclair of Dryden not only held some of the local lands in question, but he was under Scottish law entitled to sign himself as John Dryden. He was the older brother of William Sinclair of Dryden. > > > > > > > > William Sinclair of Dryden and his two brothers Sir John and Patrick, were all members of the household of the Queen of Scotland Margaret Tudor. After the Queen was dispossessed of the Regency and fled to England in 1515, no more is seen of William Sinclair in the Scottish records. Many of the Scottish exiles who were allied to the “English Party” were settled in England by Thomas Lord Dacre the English Warden of the Marches. The evidence says that Walton and other properties held by the Drydens in Cumberland were all granted to them by the Dacre family and after that date. > > > > > > > > The house of Canons Ashby in Northamptonshire built by William Dryden's grandson after 1550 displays prominently on its walls the arms of the Dacre family. Next to the Dacre arms are the arms of Charteris of Amisfield in the Scottish borders. These pictorials connect the Drydens to Lord William Dacre who was put on trial in 1534 for treason over his communciations with Robert Charteris of Amisfield and Sir Walter Scott of Buccleuch in Scotland. There is also a document of 1535 from Melrose Abbey granting Walter Scott powers as Baillie of the Abbey lands – witnessed by a Thomas Dryden. William Sinclair of Dryden's brother Patrick remained in Scotland as a favorite of the Queen Mother Margaret Tudor and later of her son James V, being a frequent emissary to the Queen's brother Henry VIII. > > > > > > > > David Dryden, the son of William Dryden of Walton was recorded in Selkirk Scotland as late as 1536, together with his son Thomas confirmed as being 20 years old. David's marriage recorded in the Northamptonshire Visitation of 1564 lists his wife as Isabel Nicholson from Cumberland in England, who on these dates must more logically must have been from the Nicolson merchant family of Aberdeen and Edinburgh in Scotland. That is the same family whose heir acquired the Dryden estates near Edinburgh from the current John Sinclair of Dryden in 1591. It appears to be no accident that most of the border and English Drydens of the early 1500s also appear as merchants. > > > > > > > > There are many more threads of evidence that demonstrate the close connections between William Dryden of Walton in Cumberland and the activities of the Scottish Sinclair of Dryden family. And as the Sinclairs of Dryden are the only known family in Scotland that can be proven to have used the Dryden name singly and collectively in Scotland before the1530s, there seems to be no plausible alternative explanation for the origin of William Dryden of Walton, the declared ancestor of the Dryden of Canons Ashby family. > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > Thank you for that explanation, Brian. > > > > > > I have to say that, like Kelsey, I read the Fab Pedigree summary with a certain feeling of scepticism, which your post hasn't really assuaged. The problem is that it all depends on the detailed evidence. Would you post some of it to the list? I appreciate that you've amassed an entire book of material, but perhaps you could post just the evidence on the two points which seem to me be crucial: > > > > > > 1. the claim that the Sinclairs of Dryden sometimes appeared by the surname Dryden in Scottish records > > > > > > 2. the first appearance of the Drydens in Cumberland records. > > > > > > t would also be interesting to hear more about lord Dacre settling other Scottish adherents of Queen Margaret in the West March. > > > > > > Matt Tompkins > > > > Hi Matt, > > I'd like to thank you and the others who have already commented on this thread. I have previously found it very difficult to get a debate going on these very details with people learned in the area. It is quite encouraging. I have already picked up some new information which would cause me to re-appraise aspects of my theory of a Scottish descent for my particular Dryden family. > > > > Just for some background. I am a retired person and not a professional historian or genealogist. My book (or rather the second half) is an intended record of my own family descent from Canons Ashby in Northamptonshire to Cornwall and on to New Zealand, written for a family reunion in New Zealand held in 2015. I have however studied some history including medieval land law and was educated as a lawyer. That has helped me a little. > > > > Our spelling variant of Dreadon is one of many and originates within the Dryden family cousins in Warwickshire in the 1590s and then continued in Cornwall from 1538. However, depending on the village and the register, our family in Cornwall also has commonly used Draydon and Dryden as spellings - and all still exist in Australia and New Zealand. > > > > Back to the theories - and note that my book attempts to follow the origin of the Dryden name from the earliest records in Scotland and then to follow its expansion down through England and out to the world. It doesn't pretend to solve all the origin mysteries and I do encourage challenges. It is a book that has already been rewritten and can be updated with newly gained knowledge and conclusions - as can be done again. But please remember it is just my personal attempt at explaining the origins of my own family and family name. There will be errors, mistakes and omissions in research. > > > > People may not realise that there were also at least one location named Dryden in Tynedale Northumberland, very near to where members of the Dryden family were located in the 1538 muster - and my book also discusses the possibility of a name origin from that location. The new information (thanks to Vance Mead)is of the Dryden name existing in England back as far as 1420. That does indeed add a serious complication to my theory of a Scottish descent for ALL the Dryden families - raising the consequent point as to whether all branches of the family have the one common origin? I had personally concluded that was likely, but of course it is still not certain. > > > > We have opened up a huge number of questions in a few short comments amd it would be impossible for me to answer all immediately - even if I could do so adequately. I suggest that anyone who wants a copy of my book to email me on thedr...@clear.net.nz and I will send them an electronic copy. I can then point out any pages of relevance to specific questions. It would be easier for me if a questioner had read the information I have compiled first. > > > > The three questions you pose. > > > > I think another poster has already listed the earliest Cumberland records which seem to start with Thomas Dryden of Cumwhitton in 1571. It is well documented that he was the second son of David Dryden and both feature in the Pedigree from the Northamptonshire Visitation. Leaving aside the new (to me) mention of English Drydens from York in the 1400s, it seems clear from the records that the Drydens appeared in Northumberland before Cumberland. There is the record of Thomas Dryden the merchant in Alnmouth in 1527-8 and the Northumberland muster records of 1538 that list in various locations from the boreder to Tyndale, David, Richard, Andrew and William Dryden. > > > > There is also another record of "Roger" Dridon in Yorkshire beginning from 1539. It is that "outlier" from Yorkshire and the earlier evidence just presented that bring up a compelling suggestion of another "English" origin for the family name? A new avenue to explore? > > > > On the claim that the Sinclair of Dryden family used the Dryden name - I refer you to the case of Johannes Dridene of Inchaffray in 1521. Chapter 10 has a discussion of why he is most likely to have been Sir John Sinclair of Dryden. There are other instances of the same man being described as Sir John de Dryden see "The Saint-Clairs of the Isles" by Roland Saint-Clair 1898 who quotes a record of him being described as Sir John of Dryden in 1502. > > > > That takes me to the concept of a "genealogical second surname" which is alive and well in Scotland. I refer you to Sir Thomas Innes of Learney who as Lord Lyon the heraldic authority in Scotland has described how various branches of the same family or clan can distinguish themselves by adding the name of their estates. It becomes a legal part of their name and can even be legally shorted to the name of the estate. William Sinclair of Roslin as the head of the family could describe himself aas William Roslin and John Sinclair of Dryden could sign himself as John of Dryden (John de Dryden) or plain John Dryden (as he appears to have done in 1521). > > > > I found that I need to acquire some knowldge of how and when family names were acquired in Scotland before I could deal with the nuances in the Sinclair-Dryden debate. In summary, many early Scottish family had an "hereditary territorial designation', often taken froma previous residence in Flanders or France. Balliol, Weir, Bruce and even St Clair (from St Clair-sur-Epte). Then there followed a later situation where members of the same family might use a "personal terrirtorial designation" such as Sinclair of Roslin or Sinclair of Dryden - with the head of that family acquirig the right to call himself after his estates. All these variations had a chance of becoming a later "family" name. > > > > In the case of Dryden it was first "de Dryden" - still retaining the link to the location of Dryden. And then it shortened to Dryden. A precise example of that latter change can be seen when following the records of Lawrence de Dryden of Perth. The many historical records of his name were all (in various spellings) written as "de Dryden" until 1456 and as "Dryden from that precise year. His only child was a daughter Agnes who continued with the Dryden family name. > > > > On the question of Lord Dacre actually settling Scottish exiles, I will need to take time to delve a bit more. I have immediately found one reference that relate to Dacre being funded by the English ambassador Dr Magnus for repairs to Wark Castle and to the "entertaining " of such gentlemen of Scotland as be at war and out of favour of the Regent of Scotland. Dated 1517. There is of course the death of Gavin Douglas, a prominent meber of the Scottish "English" party to which the Sinclair of Drydens belonged - Douglas died in 1522 at Dacre's house in London. > > > > Of more recent interest for our family is the previously mentioned uncovering of original wall decoration by the National Trust at Canons Ashby House in Northamptonshire. The house was built by William Dryden's grandson John from 1550 to 1584 (and continued its expansion under his son Erasmus). One room contains a large number of panels with coats of arms of allied families - mostly English. By use of an extended family tree showing marriages and cousins, most of the famiies can be connected by marriage to the Dryden and Cope families. > > > > Of particular note are four coats of arms presented with their crests. They appear to represent the four grandparents of John Dryden and his wife Elizabeth Cope, being Dryden, Cope, and Raleigh. But the fourth arms of the "set" is puzzling as it is the arms of the Dacre family from Cumberland. In that context it raises the possibility that John Dryden's father David remarried to a member of the Dacre family. That is a tempting conclusion as it would also explain the location of David Dryden at Staffol (Staffield) in Cumberland which was a manor held by the Dacre family. It would also explain the Dryden family inheritance in Cumberland at Cumwhitton rather than Staffield itself. Suggestions, but not conclusions I might add. > > > > Just a final point on the assertion that the Drydens were Yeomen from Cumberland. This assertion has been long made in various biographies of the poet laureate John Dryden but has also been much criticised - see comments of Arthur Collins in The Baronetage from 1720 where he points out that the Dryden's did not inherit the Manor of Canons Ashby from his wife's family and how John Dryden was quite independently wealthy. Collins considered it unlikely that Sir John Cope would have married his daughter to a person in low circumstances. I muight also add that the Northamptonshire pedigree has the two marriages of that generation into families of the gentry. John Dryden to Elizabeth Cope and John's sister Isabel to Thomas Warwick a gentleman of County Cumberland. > > > > Thanks again for the questioning and raising of contestable points. I belive that it's how we all learn and hopefully make progress on undertanding the origins of the Dryden family name. > > > > Regards, Brian Dreadon

[Kelsey Jackson Williams]

Dear Brian,

This is, I'm afraid, in haste, so I can't address your points fully, but I'd like to reiterate that this entire theory is based on a misunderstanding of how Scottish surnames worked in the period. John Sinclair of Dryden was described as "of Dryden" because he owned those lands, but neither he nor his kinsfolk would _ever_ use "Dryden" as a surname. The fact that a man named Dryden witnessed a charter of a family who married into the Sinclairs of Dryden is simply a coincidence. Scotland was (and is) a small place with a small population, not to mention a more limited pool of surnames than England, and attempts to play "seven degrees of separation" amongst its early modern inhabitants will usually be successful. That doesn't necessarily mean, though, that any hidden links will be revealed.

So, I'm signing off here but I'd like to do so with a plea that those of you interested in the origins of the Drydens at least consider shelving this "Sinclair of Dryden" theory for a time and instead engage in some unbiased study of the extremely rich archival sources relating to fifteenth- and sixteenth-century Cumberland instead.

All best wishes,
Kelsey

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Brian ~

Reading your posts closely, it appears that you're suggesting that your Dreadon family in Cornwall is somehow descended from the Dryden family of Northampton and Cumberland. That's a stretch.

And ... you're also suggesting that the Dryden family of Northampton and Cumberland is somehow descended from the Sinclair family of Midlothian in Scotland. That's an even bigger stretch.

I would rate the possibility of the first theory at less than 1 percent.

And I would rate the possibility of the second theory at impossible.

The roots of your Dreadon family are surely in the West Country. Stick to the West Country and all will be well.

Sincerely, Douglas Richardson, a real Dryden descendant (but not Sinclair)

[thedr...@gmail.com]

Hi Douglas,

Thanks for the instructions on how to alter my family tree.
Without you giving any more precise details on where the west country Drydens came from I am unable to comment on your "alternative facts".

For the record, the descent for the Drydens in Cornwall is now well known and is accepted by the National Trust at Canons Ashby House in Northamptonshire.

John Dryden (the builder of the House) had a son Thomas who married in Farthinghoe Northamptonshire. Thomas was born in Canons Ashby in about 1565 and died in St Germans Cornwall in 1638.

Thomas moved to Cornwall after he was given a lease in Rame Cornwall (south head of the Plymouth harbour with rights to wreakage of the sea!!)around 1600 by Robert Dillon - whose Dillon family held many properties in Devon and Cornwall and who had recently moved to Northamtonshire.
The consequent leases indicate that Thomas Dryden was close to Robert Dillon and was probably his son-in-law.

The Drydens then moved a small distance from Rame to Treskelly near St Germans, where there neighbours were the Smyths of Tregonneke. The Smyths also held Trevissick and Trewint in the Blisland Parish.
Then Thomas Dyden's son John (mentioned in Dillon leases)married and moved to Trewint in Blisland Parish - the obvious impication is that he married into the extended Smyth family.

The descent from John "Dreadon" in BLisland parish is through his daughter Radigan and her illegitimate son Humphrey who was born in 1683.
My descent from there is through his son another Humphrey, then John, John, William, William, Lawrence - to myself.

I can give further surrounding details if you wish and references to Parish registers for a line of relevant marriages and births to support this.

If you have another version that shows my family have descended from another Dryden family with origins in the west country I am certainly open to following your reasoning. But as far as I know there is no evidence of a Dryden family presence in Cornwall before Thomas and his family arrived in 1600.

And lastly, while I am not at all disturbed by the tone of your email, unsupported & hostile declarations don't help us make much progress. Questions are better

Regards
Brian Dreadon

[thedr...@gmail.com]

Hi Kelsey

Might I suggest that the William Sinclair that you refer to (d, be 1526)is another son of William Sinclair of Banks of Row.
The original William Sinclair of Banks of Row was a younger brother of Sir John Sinclair of Dryden and his brother William (Yes - two brothers named William).

Why I suggest this William Sinclair of Banks of Row as the father of your William Sinclair is the connection to William Stirling of Keir.
Another half brother of the Sinclair of Drydens was Henry Sinclair of Ardoch whose daughter Marion married Willia Stirling of Glassingall.

There were in fact several later marriages between the extended Sinclair of Dryden family and the Stirlings of Keir.
Further down the family tree for Sinclair of Banks there is another mariage of interest too - James Sinclair of Banks married Anabel Forrester - who had a testament recorded in 1619.

Incidentally, I think it likely that the Margaret Sinclair whose rights were being upheld by the 1521 Inchaffray document was likely to have been the daughter of William Sinclair of Banks of Row - whose holdings were subinfuedated from hsi brother Sir John Sinclair of Dryden.

She would therefore have been the neice of Sir John.

Regards
Brian Dreadon

[taf]

On Saturday, March 18, 2017 at 2:23:43 PM UTC-7, thedr...@gmail.com wrote:

> For the record, the descent for the Drydens in Cornwall is now well known
> and is accepted by the National Trust at Canons Ashby House in
> Northamptonshire.

Appealing to the authority of the National Trust is not a strong argument. One has no idea who did the research that underlies such a claim, nor the sources they used. As a general rule, one doesn't want to cite an organization because it is too vague to evaluate. While sometimes such material represents the result of high-quality research based on solid sourcing, sometimes it just parrots whatever they have been told by the family, or what has been found in whatever sources they had handy, perhaps of dubious quality.

From the rest of your post it appears you may have the sources to back up the claim, so I would recommend not invoking the National Trust at all.

taf

[Brian Dreadon]

Hi Taf (and others)

OK, I'll cancel my mention of the National Trust - & just rely on other sources which back up the line of descent I gave.
And sorry to give offence - I am just here to explain and hopefully clarify my personal opinions and tentative conclusions?

For the Dryden family Cornwall connection you might want to read the articles by P Dryden Mundy in the Oxford Notes & Queries - 16 Feb 1929, 16 March 1929, 4 May 1929 and 20 Juy 1929.
He was a member of the Canons Ashby Dryden family and did the original investigations into Thomas Dryden's move to Cornwall - not me.


Now back to the probable origins of the Dryden family in Scotland - and my apologies again if my expounding on a plausible theory upsets anyone. That's not my intention.

Having responded to a few of the posts in this group - while admitting to not having read all the posts as yet – a clear trend seems to emerge.
Any theory of a Dryden descent from the location of Dryden in Midlothian is “critiqued” very forcefully (which is fine by me), whereas the only other theory that has been proposed has not been scritinised to the same standard.

Remember that both Midlothian and Roxburghshire theories have the same basic premise, that the Dryden name was taken from the geographical location of the family – a place called Dryden. So if the Midlothian location is ruled out because no family could have taken their name from that Dryden, then Roxburghshire must too be ruled out by applying the same logic.

Dryden appears to have been a word from the “Anglish” of the Angles who inhabited the east side of Scotland south from Edinburgh down to Yorkshire in England. Being translated as dry valley or dry pasture, it seems to have been an agricultural description that could be applied to numerous locations – as it was.
There are Drydens in Midlothain, Roxburghshire (2) and also in Tynedale Northumberland.

But let's admit that the “theory” of a Dryden family descent from the location of Dryden in west Roxburghshire has been around for a long time and is what we might call the “received wisdom”.
What is it based upon?

Please feel free to add other reasons, but as far as I can tell it is based on a few known facts.
The first might be the signing of the Ragman Roll by Phillip de Driden in Roxburghshire in 1296. The second might be the pardon of the 3 Drydanes in 1489, who were described as “indwellers in the shire of Roxburgh” in the text. And the third might be the the emergence of the Dryden family in that general location in the Scottish borders from the early 1500s. People have just assumed that they were a family of local origin.

Phillip de Driden was in Roxburghshire when he signed the Ragman Roll, but was he from Roxburghshire? Actually his lands that were restored after his declaration of fealty to the English King, were in Forfarshire – not Roxburghshire. He may well have had holdings in Roxburghshire, but there is no evidence of it & we can't rely on it.

On the other hand one Henry Sinclair of Roslin, who also signed the Ragman Roll (as did his father William who held the estates of Dryden in Midlothian) married Alice de Fenton whose family often supplied the Sheriffs of Forfar in this period.

Since Henry Sinclair would have received a dowry often including landholdings which customarily were subinfeudated to members of the wider family – we have some connecting evidence that might suggest Phillip de Driden was a younger brother of Henry Sinclair who received his name from the Dryden residence on the Sinclair estates. It's nowhere near proof, but perhaps better suppported evidence of a link to Dryden in Midlothian than to Dryden in West Roxburghshire.


For the 3 Drydanes of 1489 I have relied on the usual source reference, the “Letters Patent of Remission by King James IV dated 10 Feb 1488 (1489 - modern calendar) contained in the Seventh Report of the Royal Commission on Historical Manuscripts. The Letters Patent of Remission actually contain 25 names and are clearly meant as a pardon for William Douglas of Cavers and his supporters who fought for James III (the existing King) at Sauchieburn in June 1488.

That is made clear by other documents set out in the same source. In May 1488 before the battle of Sauchieburn in June 1488, William Cavers had pledged full support to King James III and had received a charter from the King that incuded the following words:
“For which grant and donation the said William has promised and faithfully bound himself to stay and remain with the King, and to take plain part with the King and faithful defence against all that live or die shall; and shall himself go in proper person with his kindred, men, friends, and partakers, whom he can assemble or raise, ready for the King's service, without fraud or guile.”

We might surmise therefore that the group who were pardoned together with William Douglas of Cavers were drawn from his family and those who held land from him. In additon they might have been further kin or friends within the supporters of the King.
But were they all from the Shire of Roxburgh where the Douglas of Cavers family were hereditary sheriffs? The 8 Douglas names do appear to be and many of the locations mentioned are indeed in Roxburghshure.
However, Simon Glendonwyn and John Henryson are from families whose main holdings were in adjoining Dumfriesshire. Their links to the wider Douglas family is clear, but they were not from Roxburghshire. If one name is not from a residnce in Roxburghshire, shouldn't that also destroy the case that says the Drydanes must be from Roxburghshire?

Apart from the ambiguous wording of this 1489 pardon, there is absolutely no other evidence of a Dryden family living in Roxburghshire at this time, as far as I am aware?
But what is interesting is that the Sinclair of Dryden family can be connected in the following decades to both the Henryson and Glendonwyn families.

Patrick Sinclair of Dryden (a younger half-brother of Sir John and William) married the widow of Batholomew Glendonwyn, the grandson & heir of Simon. The Henryson family intermarried with the Sinclairs of Dryden (3 different marriages from about 1538) and Edward Henryson's daughter Elizabeth became the owner of Dryden together with her husband John Nicolson in 1591.

Yes, I know there is some doubt of the ancestry of the “Dryden” Henrysons but their progenitor James Henryson is usually claimed to have come from the Dumfriesshire family.

Again – there is no evidence of the Drydens actually being resident at Dryden in Roxburgshire or having any family history there. That is in contrast to two of the names John and William Dryden being the same as the first two Sinclair of Dryden brothers – John & William.
The Sinclair of Dryden family also had later known connections to families named in the pardon. On balance when attempting to analyse the contents & context of the 1489 pardon, the Midlothian location of Dryden appears to have the stronger claim.

Now for the general location of Roxburgshire for the emergence of the Dryden family.
Again, please feel free to add other dates, but the first Dryden records I have in the Scottish Borders are 4 charters from Melrose Abbey featuring the signature of Thomas Dryden from 1534-36.

Like Kelsey and his views on the Inchaffray Abbey charter of 1521, the evidence initially seemed to point to Thomas Dryden having been a member of the Abbey's chapter, perhaps a monk. However, a Melrose charter from 1535 granting baillary of the Abbey to Walter Scott is repeated in 1574 with the signature of Ralph Dryden. As established from the will of his wife, Ralph was a merchant in Kelso, not a monk.

The better explanation for Thomas Dryden is perhaps that he was the same man as Thomas Dryden, a merchant in Alnmouth Northumberland in 1527-28, trading down the English coast. Remember that Melrose Abbey was the second largest wool producer in Europe at the time, and trade across the border was in the hands of the Kers who also controlled Kelso Abbey.
Kelso Abbey records (1567) show that Thomas Dryden and his sons Thomas and Ralph had Kelso “onsetts”, which raises the probability that Thomas also lived in Kelso rather than Melrose (still in Roxburghshire).

The next Dryden records are in Selkirk, Selkirkshire (bordering on Roxburghshire to the north-west) with David Dryden (1535) and his son Thomas (1536) who are mentioned in the Selkirk Court Book. Both then appear to move to England as attested by David Dryden appearing in the Northumberland muster of 1538 and later with claimed residence in Cumberland in the Dryden pedigree of Northamptonshire. (In the Selkirk records that Thomas Dryden is aged 20 in 1536).

The evidence that the Drydens were a mobile merchant family is everywhere you look (right down to Canons Ashby) with the Drydens moving outwards from Kelso to the nearby ports of Berwick on Tweed and Fisherrow the port near Edinburgh in the following century.

What connects all these Drydens to the location of Dryden in west Roxburghshire? As far as I know, only the name.
On the other hand, David Dryden married Isabel Nicolson in Scotland before 1514. Her likely family is that of William Nicolson a prominent merchant of Aberdeen and Edinburgh - the same family who were to acquire the Dryden estates in Midlothian some decades later.

In summary, the Roxburghshire origin for the Drydens seems to have very little evidence behind it, certainly far less than that of Dryden in Midlothian.
Don't just say I am wrong – give some more evidence to support your theory of a Roxburghshire origin. A disussion looking at the merits of BOTH locations is important.

If anyone wants to genuinely take up correspondence on any particular point – please email me direct.
I fear this is all getting too complex, lengthy and confused to continue posting here. While robust debate is good, I am somewhat of a private pensioner & I'm not enjoying the more personal of the cracks.

Regards
Brian Dreadon

[taf]

On Saturday, March 18, 2017 at 6:14:19 PM UTC-7, Brian Dreadon wrote:
> Hi Taf (and others)
>
> OK, I'll cancel my mention of the National Trust - & just rely on other
> sources which back up the line of descent I gave.
> And sorry to give offence - I am just here to explain and hopefully clarify
> my personal opinions and tentative conclusions?

No offence taken. We see it all the time here, the appeal to the authority of some organization or government entity, whether it be The Foundation of Medieval Genealogy, the National Trust, the Library of Congress, or the College of Arms - so I thought it was worth pointing out to all of the readers of the group who might not be aware why this is something best avoided. Without knowing their sources, the opinions of such entities are of little value.

taf

[Douglas Richardson]

Brian ~

Since you've been slow walking the evidence regarding your Dryden family, I thought it best to examine the records for myself.

Back in 1999, a certain Ron Dryden posted a message online in which he discussed Thomas Dryden, of Farthinghoe, Northamptonshire. He cited as one of his sources the same series of articles which you did by Captain Mundy published in Notes and Queries, December 27, 1924, April 18, 1925, February 16, 1929, and July 20, 1929.

Mr. Dryden then proceeded to give the following synopsis:

"From 1593 to 1600 he [Thomas Dryden] appears to have resided at Farthinghoe, a village between Banbury and Srackley with a wife named Mary and during that period five of his children were baptized there ... Thomas [Dryden] died May 18, 1638. He had two sons, Thomas end George, and three daughters, all baptized at Farthinghoe. Of these sons I have at present no trace, but probably one or both were ancestors of the Drydens who occur in Cornwall in the seventeenth and eighteenth century. The information may be summarized as follows; Thomas Dryden, (b) 1560, married Mary (?), removed to County Cornwall in 1600, (d) May 1638, children: Katherine Dryden (b) 1610; Thomas Dryden, Jr., no information;George Dryden, no information; Dorothy Dryden, (m) Reverend Solomon Carswell 1635; John Dryden, no information; and William Dryden, (d) 1665/6: the latter left a son, Thomas Dryden, the younger." END OF QUOTE.

Today I examined the parish registers of Farthinghoe, Nothamptonshire available at the Family History Library here in Salt Lake City on Microfiche 6127450. The registers are in poor condition, some entries are hard to read. Regardless, the parish registers showed six children for Thomas Dryden, who is called "Mr." at the baptisms of four of the children. His wife, Mary, is named at the baptism of the sixth child.

1. Emme, baptized 1593, buried May 1593.
2. Katherine, baptized 1594.
3. Thomas, baptized 15 June 1595.
4. George, baptized 21 Nov. 1596.
5. Dorothy, baptized 2 July 1598.
6. Grace, baptized 8 June 1600.

In comparison, the Thomas Dryden of Cornwall is styled "gentleman," he had a wife, Mary, and apparently a son, John, and a daughter, Dorothy, married in 1635.

The marriage of the daughter, Dorothy, in Cornwall in 1635 is a problem because the vast majority of women in this period married between the ages of 16 and 25. Assuming these are the same people in both places, Dorothy baptized in 1598 would have been 37 at her first marriage in Cornwal. This is highly irregular ... although not impossible. We also do not see a baptism for the sons, John and William, in Northamptonshire which Ron Dryden included in this family. So this isn't an exact match.

What do I think? You've mentioned a certain Robert Dillon, Esq., allegedly of Devonshire, who lived at Farthinghoe, Northamptonshire. You've indicated that he was instrumental in bringing Thomas Dryden down to Cornwall. Fair enough.

The Visitation of Northamptonshire confirms that Robert Dillon, Esq., of Farthinghoe, Northamptonshire was in fact originally from Devon. The Northamptonshire subsidy for 42 Elizabeth [1599-1600] in fact lists just two individuals taxed at Farthinghoe, Northamptonshire, namely

Robert Dilland esquire xxli.-iiijli.
Thomas Dreydon gent. iiijli.-xs.viijd.

Source: Wake, A Copy of Papers relating to Musters, Beacons, Subsidies, etc. in the County of Northampton, A.D. 1586-1623 (1926): 54-55.

Thus it would appear that Robert Dillon, Esq., of Devon definitely knew Thomas Dryden, Gent., of Farthinghoe, Northamptonshire, as both men lived in the same small parish in Northamptonshire at the same time.

The parish registers of Farthinghoe, Northamptonshire yield the following Dillon entries:

Grace daughter of John Dillon, Gent. and Anne his wife bp. 5 June 1608.
Katherine daughter of John Dillon, Gent. and Anne his wife bp. 6 July 1609.
John son of John Dillon, Gent. and [ ] his wife bp. 1614 [or ?1615].
Mrs. Elianor Dillon daughter of Robert Dillon, Esq. buried 26 July 1608.

Beyond the subsidy and the parish registers, I find another association between Thomas Dryden and Robert Dyllon in the Chancery record copied below taken from the online Discovery catalog:

"Reference: C 2/JasI/B24/55
Short title: Battersbye v Dyllon.
Plaintiffs: John Battersbye.
Defendants: Robert Dyllon, Thomas Dryden and John Dryden.
Subject: manor of Raine [?], Cornwall, with wreck of the sea, and advowson of the church of Raine, purchased by plaintiff from defendant Robert Dyllon for £2,000.
Date: 1603-1625
Held by: The National Archives, Kew." END OF QUOTE.

Question: Are the defendants in this lawsuit the same parties who were earlier living at Farthinghoe, Northamptonshire in 1599-1600? They could be ... but I'd certainly like to see better evidence to prove it.

As to your unlikely theory of the "probable" origins of the Dryden family in Scotland, I think the matter can be quickly be proven with genetic testing. You simply have to find a male descendant or two of the Dryden family of Scotland and match them to a male descendant or two of the Sinclair family. To help you along the path, I'd be happy to help you track down some of my male Canadian Dryden cousins (of which there are many) who descend from the Dryden family of Roxburghshire.

One last item. Strange as it seems, I happen to be related to Robert Dillon, Esq., of Devon and Northamptonshire through our common Fortescue ancestry. I'm also related to Robert Dillon's wife, Grace Chichester, through our common Chichester ancestry. So as they say, these are my peeps. Small world, eh?

I trust this information has been helpful to you.

Sincerely, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

[Brian Dreadon]

Hi Douglas,

Thanks for posting all that.
And yes - it is spot on.

I can't guarantee that we are related, but the Battersbye court case certainly gives grounds for thinking so - as the Battersbyes were short-changed while the Drydens benefited from the on-selling of the lease by Robert Dillon.

I've made the case for Thomas Dryden's wife Mary to be a daughter of Robert Dillon, but it is not proven. If Thomas Drydens sons were Robert's grandchildren it would indeed make better sense of all the various relationships.

If you contact me by email thedr...@clear.net.nz I can provide you with electronic copies of Dryden-Mundy's articles.
It seems long ago but Ron Dryden contacted me and actually set me up as one of the 3 gatekeepers to a US online Dryden group. I passed on a lot of my information which after a time was published by Ron in his own books - no nod given to its origins.

I have since become non-grata and effectively banned from Ron's discussions.
I'm afraid my history shows that I am rather naive when it comes to the politics of family research and communicating with online groups.

Back to Notes & Queries and I see that in the 20 July 1929 article Dryden Munday gives a strong link back to Canons Ashby.
It flows on from "Thomas dryden and Robert Dyllon were neighbouring land-owners of land in Farthinghoe..etc"

Then " Robert Dyllon finding that the demesne lands in Farthinghoe lay in the common fields, made an agreement with Thomas Dryden to convey to him his estate in 10 yard lands (about 1,000 acres) in Farthinghoe. [seems a lot of land to me?]
Thus Thomas Dryden acquired an interest in Rame, and presumably disposed of his lands in Farthinghoe, and removed to Cornwall.
In the following year, according to the documents in question, Thomas Dryden mortgaged the property in Rame to his brother Erasmus, from whom he had borrowed the sum of 467 pounds."

I can extract my own descent from the large family tree I have for Cornwall, but that would take some time to reference properly for you. (but not a problem)
While that file has the birth, marriage and death details together with the locations, - it really needs to be made clear where all the information comes from. (I have it in folders - before the internet i made use of the Morman library microfich in Hamilton NZ. A Big shout out from me!!)

We are really lucky that the Cornwall Church registris have survived to such a great extent.
There are also some Protestation sources, hearth taxes, Church tithes and into Victorian time the Census too.

Bsides the probable Dillon link we also have some Raleigh lands down in Devon (near Bideford) that come up in the records. John Dryden (d.1584) who built Canons Ashby House had a mother-in-law Bridget Raleigh. However, I think the Devon lands in that area lnked to the Drydens fall under the activities of Thomas Dryden's grandson William who was steward for the Godolphin family in west Cornwall.(Will AP/D/755 1677 Archdeaconry of Cornwall, probate Court.)

Thomas Dryden later held a residence at Treskelly just west of St Germans (see the Cornwall Record Office ME/899 of 5 May 1634 "Great and Little Treskelye and Tregonnnocke, St Germans in possession of Mr Thomas Dryden...")

Tregonnocke was also the residence of the Smythe family who held Trewint and Trevissick in the Blisland Parish - where John Dreadon popped up in 1638.
Dreadon was a known spelling even back then - from cousins in Warwickshire in the 1590s records. Pronounced Draydon in Cornwall and now as Dreedon in NZ.

Thomas Dryden's son William inherited the aforementioned Rame estate in 1638, but what became of the properties or the descendants of William it is not known. They disappear from the records after another generation.

It seems our branch from Thomas's younger son John is the only surviving Cornwall branch.
We still have Dryden cousins in Falmouth and DID inherit some of the Canons Ashby literary talent - see James Dryden Hoskin the "Helston Postman" and minor British Poet, whose mother was a Dryden Cornwall cousin.

John is a name that does occur as one of Thomas Dryden's sons on the lease in question (on the lives of)- but he doesn't have a christening record that has survived.
That makes the identification of John Dreadon of Blisland the only link in my ancestry that relies on circumstances rather than a precise historical record.
I tend to think it holds up though. There is a line of dots that connect very well.

DNA - yes, I've been through that some years ago.
Mine didn't match anything, although I don't know what I was expecting.
But luckily I was provoked to go back to my family tree and the church records in deatil checking each generation, discovering that I actually descended from John Dreadon's daughter Radigan, not his surviving son.
That of course means my male line DNA does not go back to John Dryden of Canons Ashby - before 1683 it was the male line of one Edward Parsons.

Which brings me to the Canons Ashby family itself - twice descended from a daughter of the family. No possible DNA male-line matches there either.
I can actually count 6 breaks in the male line within our wider family including canons Ashby.
We DO have a third branch to accompany the descendants of John Dryden's sons Erasmus and Thomas - and that is from the second youngest son Nicholas Dryden.

They have a lot of Clergymen and a line can be followed down through successive Jonathan Drydens from herefordshire to the York Minster and on to Hull.
I've managed to track down a few cousin in that line, but only ONE family of Dryden who appear to be male line descendants (there must be more of course - some were actually London merchants who keep being confused with the brothers of John Dryden the poet).

So I have found a father and son both called John Dryden, but I have not persuaded them to come across with a DNA test as yet.
They are in NZ too! And as an interesting aside - Rose Dryden the son of a lawyer in Hull (and with a brother Erasmus Henry Dryden - strong Canons Ashby family names) married Sir John Hall, the PM & Politician who introduced the vote for Women in NZ in 1890.

Thank you very much for your post and for taking the time to do some corroborating research. I really do appreciate it when someone checks rather than making accusatory comments aimed at the school dunce - as sometimes happens here.

I've had some wise counsel privately from another poster - and will write up some articles on the Sinclair of Dryden controversy complete with all the original source references. Small chunks at a time.
My book makes no claim that William Sinclair of Dryden WAS William Dryden of Walton - it just attempts to outline the case for it.
It is only circumstantial evidence but fascinating that it keeps growing.

I intially got some adverse reaction for suggesting a link between the Drydens in Cumberland and the Dacre family, but the case is strong as the Dacre arms and crest appear prominently in Canons Ashby House.
The many panels in the room now denoted as the Servants Hall form a kind of family tree, dominated by the English marriages from the Cope family and adding the Wilkes and Foxly children's marriages just before 1580.

But beside the Dacre arms are those of Charteris of Amisfield located in Dumfriesshire in the Scottish borders.
Just as a hint of what can be written up, the trial of William Dacre for Treason in 1534 for working together with Scottish border Lords had it's main evidence incrimating Robert Charteris of Amisfield and Walter Scott of Branxholme. Co-incidently (as I'm always told it is) Thomas Dryden witnessed the melrose Abby charter assignin him Baillery of the Abbey lands in 1534.

The other identified Scottish armas are Hamilton and Lindsay of the Byres.
Patrick Sinclair of Dryden's son married a Hamilton, as did his two grand-daughters - one Hamilton of Bothwellhaugh who assasinated the Scottish regent.
But Lindsay of the Byres - we haven't got a clue as to suggesting any "co-incidental" family relationship.

The problem is, the whole hisstory of the Dryden family is so complex it takes pages just to delve into one such event such as the Dacre relationship and the consequent implications for the Drydens to have been involved in the cross-border politics in the early 1500s.

Thanks again
Brian

[Tompkins, Matthew (Dr.)]

From: Brian Dreadon [thedr...@gmail.com]
Sent: 21 March 2017 22:11
<snip>

> Back to Notes & Queries and I see that in the 20 July 1929 article Dryden Munday gives a strong link back to Canons Ashby. It flows on from "Thomas dryden and Robert Dyllon were neighbouring land-owners of land in Farthinghoe..etc"
>
> Then " Robert Dyllon finding that the demesne lands in Farthinghoe lay in the common fields, made an agreement with Thomas Dryden to convey to him his estate in 10 yard lands (about 1,000 acres) in Farthinghoe. [seems a lot of land to me?]
>

-------------------------------
Yes indeed. A yardland was seldom larger than 30 acres and often much smaller - 10 yardlands would most probably have been 150-300 acres. But that would still be a substantial chunk of the parish, which only contained about 1500 acres, I believe.

Matt Tompkins

[Kelsey Jackson Williams]

Dear Brian,

So there were at least three different Scottish coats represented amongst these painted armorial panels? I'm seriously intrigued now! Would you mind providing a citation to whatever source describes them in detail? I'd be keen to see if I could come up with a theory as to what they're doing there . . . .

All the best,
Kelsey

[thedr...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, March 21, 2017 at 5:51:50 PM UTC+13, Douglas Richardson wrote:

Hi Douglas,

My apologies ideed for "slow walking". Not intentional, I have been busy with family from Australia.
My visit to this site was purely accidental & for a time I didn't realise that there were some serious genealogists here, with the good luck chance to have some family points clarified, confirmed or ruled out.

And yes, I have many a similar reaction tot he Sinclair of Dryden use of the Dryden name - which is the first step to establish before any thoughts of a Dryden descent from that family. I'll post more on that & try to keep each post shorter. Outlining the descent of the family from the archive souces might be a start?

I haven't any more to connect Thomas Dryden's wife to the Dillons. Perhaps his will of 1638 might have some leads, but I have never been able to locate it.

Referring back to Dryden Mundy's papers in Notes & Queries – he mentioned John as one of three sons on Thomas Dryden on the lease for Rame. Mundy then “assumes” John to have been the oldest and the family heir.

I find that doubtful, with the report that it was Thomas's son Thomas who was given the administration of his father's will, “with the permission of his brother William”.
It was William who inherited Rame in 1538 and in the 1567 hearth tax for he is still in St Germans with 6 chimneys listed. William looks to be the heir, while John looks to be a younger son.

John Dreaden signed the 1542 Protestation in Blisland Cornwall – and appears in the Blisland Church register as John Dreadon with 4 children christened from 1538 to 1546.

From the Church Registers:
Radigan Dreadon christened 27 March 1643 daughter of John Dreadon and Joan.
Radigan has no known record of marriage and was buried in Blisland 9 June 1724.

Humphrey Parsons or Dreadon was christened on 4 April 1683 in Blisland, the son of Edward Parsons and Radigan Dreadon.
Humphrey Dreadon was buried in Blisland on 23 January 1760.
Humphrey Dreadon married Rebecca Hoskin in Blisland on 13 June 1709.

The descent from Cornwall can be continued - but the break in the male line in 1683 is where my DNA search stops. We have about 7 different male lines within the Northamptonshire Dryden descent - and none of them the "original"

I have the succeeding registry entries in Cornwall down to William Dreadon of Bodmin leaving for New Zealand in 1865. But rather than a meaningless single line, I can send you a wider Dreadon/Dryden family tree compiled from the Church registers originally sourced from Mormon Church microfiche files in New Zealand 1974 and updated since with tithe payments, land records and early censuses. That's if you don't already have a copy

Regards
Brian

[thedr...@gmail.com]

Hi Kelsey,

I think I need to back up a bit and explain that (as far as I am aware) there has been no academic research and identification of these panels uncovered by the Trust's conservators over 20 years ago.
I am not even sure of the reliability of the Trust's dating of the painting in the “Servants Hall”.
The only publication I have seen describing the painted panels is the Guidebook for visitors.

I visited over 10 years ago and took a few photos. And for the last few years I have had regular contact with people working at organising the volunteers who guide the many visitors through the house. The Trust administartion is naturally more concerned with the upkeep and repairs to the house itself.

The “Servants Hall” holds over 70 panels painted with coats of arms, crests & emblems. Other symbols surround an alcove and there a priest's hole (the Dryden's were Puritans but the description is useful) accessed behind a cupboard.

The efforts to decipher the elements painted on to the panels in this room has to date has only been attempted by “enthusiasts”. I have contributed by confirming relationships between the families identified as having coats of arms in the House and in finding the origins of the underlying “pattern” of an extended family tree - but the resulting work is not mine and I feel I have a duty not to pass it on.

However, I can say that the exact copies of some of the emblems and other design elements establish the “inspiration” for the rooms painting to have been “Workes of Armourie” by John Bossewell, first published in 1572.
The Trust says the paintings date to about 1590, and the coats of arms dating the marriages of the Dryden take the scheme down to about 1578. But more rigorous academic scrutiny on dating and identification would certainly be welcomed.

Consequently I can give you no citation, but I could send privately a photo of just one panel and let you identify a slightly damaged coat of arms yourself. One picture, as they say …
(David Lindsay's Armorial of 1542 has been one ofmy guides.).

Regards
Brian

[Kelsey Jackson Williams]

Dear Brian,

Thanks for this. Can I ask how these "enthusiasts" went about identifying the coats of arms? Has anyone actually done a preliminary survey of the panels by photographing them panel by panel and as groups, and then preparing a textual description of them in standard heraldic terminology? It seems to me that quite a lot of work needs to be done before anyone could confidently identify what's going on here.

As for photos, that's very kind. Is there any chance you could stretch to three or four photos and send me images (if you have them) of the allegedly Scottish coats?

All the best,
Kelsey

[Paulo Canedo]

Mr. Dreadon some weeks ago I tried to add William Sinclair I of Dryden as a son of Henry Sinclair 2nd Earl of Orkney in Wikipedia but most of the other users didn't considerate you a reliable source. Can you provide me with a citation that proves the link in order to convince them.

[Tompkins, Matthew (Dr.)]

> On Wednesday, March 22, 2017 at 8:48:25 PM UTC+13, Kelsey Jackson Williams wrote:
>>> So there were at least three different Scottish coats represented amongst these painted armorial panels? I'm seriously intrigued now! Would you mind providing a citation to whatever source describes them in detail? I'd be keen to see if I could come up with a theory as to what they're doing there . . . .
>>>

On Friday, 24 March 2017 07:26:32 UTC, thedr...@gmail.com wrote:
>> I think I need to back up a bit and explain that (as far as I am aware) there has been no academic research and identification of these panels uncovered by the Trust's conservators over 20 years ago.
>> I am not even sure of the reliability of the Trust's dating of the painting in the “Servants Hall”.
>> The only publication I have seen describing the painted panels is the Guidebook for visitors.
>>
>> I visited over 10 years ago and took a few photos. And for the last few years I have had regular contact with people working at organising the volunteers who guide the many visitors through the house. The Trust administartion is naturally more concerned with the upkeep and repairs to the house itself.
>>
>> The “Servants Hall” holds over 70 panels painted with coats of arms, crests & emblems. Other symbols surround an alcove and there a priest's hole (the Dryden's were Puritans but the description is useful) accessed behind a cupboard.
>>
>> The efforts to decipher the elements painted on to the panels in this room has to date has only been attempted by “enthusiasts”. I have contributed by confirming relationships between the families identified as having coats of arms in the House and in finding the origins of the underlying “pattern” of an extended family tree - but the resulting work is not mine and I feel I have a duty not to pass it on.
>>
>> However, I can say that the exact copies of some of the emblems and other design elements establish the “inspiration” for the rooms painting to have been “Workes of Armourie” by John Bossewell, first published in 1572.
>> The Trust says the paintings date to about 1590, and the coats of arms dating the marriages of the Dryden take the scheme down to about 1578. But more rigorous academic scrutiny on dating and identification would certainly be welcomed.
>>
>> Consequently I can give you no citation, but I could send privately a photo of just one panel and let you identify a slightly damaged coat of arms yourself. One picture, as they say …
>> (David Lindsay's Armorial of 1542 has been one ofmy guides.).
>>

_______________________________________
From: Kelsey Jackson Williams [kelsey.jack...@googlemail.com]
Sent: 24 March 2017 07:58

>
>Thanks for this. Can I ask how these "enthusiasts" went about identifying the coats of arms? Has anyone actually done a preliminary survey of the panels by photographing them panel by panel and as groups, and then preparing a textual description of them in standard heraldic terminology? It seems to me that quite a lot of work needs to be done before anyone could confidently identify what's going on here.
>
>As for photos, that's very kind. Is there any chance you could stretch to three or four photos and send me images (if you have them) of the allegedly Scottish coats?
>

-------------------------------
I happen to have two copies of the National Trust' guidebook to Canons Asbhy, one published in 1989, the other in 2004, written respectively by Gervase Jackson-Stops and Oliver Garnett of the Trust's architectural history department, which has a perfectly respectable academic reputation - i.e. not by 'enthusiasts'.

The earlier one, written not long after the heraldic panels in the Winter Parlour had been uncovered, gives a solid justification for the dating of the panels to the 1590s, but does not identify any of the arms, and adds 'much research work still needs to be done'. It has a black and white photo showing 25 of the panels, but not clearly enough to enable a precise description of the arms to be produced.

The 2004 edition, conforming to the Trust's recent dumbing-down approach, has less text and more pictures. The text repeats the attribution to the 1590s, but not the analysis which underpinned it. It does however comment that some of the panels depict crests and badges rather than arms, and mentions that the latter include the arms of the Copes, the Staffords of Blatherwick, the Knightleys of Fawsley. the Fermors of Easton Neston, the Spencers of Badby and Harbys of Adstone. It has two colour photos showing 18 of the panels (at least 5 showing crests or badges), credited to the Trust's Photographic Library, which presumably has a complete set.

Incidentally, Woodcock and Robinson's Heraldry in National Trust Houses (London, 2000) says, on p. 219, in a brief section relating to Canons Ashby, that "The Dryden family came originally from Cumberland and in the papers of Augustine Vincent, Windsor Herald (d. 1626) there is a note: 'The first Dryden that came into this shire was a schoolmaster'.

Matt Tompkins

[Matt Tompkins]

> From: Brian Dreadon [thedr...@gmail.com]
> Sent: 21 March 2017 22:11
> <snip>
> > Back to Notes & Queries and I see that in the 20 July 1929 article Dryden Munday gives a strong link back to Canons Ashby. It flows on from "Thomas dryden and Robert Dyllon were neighbouring land-owners of land in Farthinghoe..etc"
> >
> > Then " Robert Dyllon finding that the demesne lands in Farthinghoe lay in the common fields, made an agreement with Thomas Dryden to convey to him his estate in 10 yard lands (about 1,000 acres) in Farthinghoe. [seems a lot of land to me?]
> >
> -------------------------------

On Tuesday, 21 March 2017 22:37:34 UTC, Tompkins, Matthew wrote:
> Yes indeed. A yardland was seldom larger than 30 acres and often much smaller - 10 yardlands would most probably have been 150-300 acres. But that would still be a substantial chunk of the parish, which only contained about 1500 acres, I believe.
>
> Matt Tompkins

David Hall, The Open Fields of Northamptonshire, p. 265, provides evidence that in Farthinghoe a yardland was about 24-28 acres, so 10 yardlands would have been around 240-280 acres.

Matt Tompkins

[Kelsey Jackson Williams]

On Friday, 24 March 2017 14:07:19 UTC, Paulo Canedo wrote:
> Mr. Dreadon some weeks ago I tried to add William Sinclair I of Dryden as a son of Henry Sinclair 2nd Earl of Orkney in Wikipedia but most of the other users didn't considerate you a reliable source. Can you provide me with a citation that proves the link in order to convince them.

From memory, I don't think we have any evidence for the parentage of the first Sinclair of Dryden. I'll check and get back to you in more detail later . . . .

All the best,
Kelsey

[Kelsey Jackson Williams]

Dear Paulo,

I've now had the chance to have a quick look at my notes and as far as I can tell the first known member of this family is a certain Edward Sinclair of Dryden who saw some remarkable rats in 1447 (you can see the whole story in Richard Augustine Hay's _Genealogie of the Sainteclaires of Rosslyn_, 27-28). His children have been identified largely from a charter of 20 July 1513 in which the crown confirmed and quitclaimed to Patrick Sinclair of Spottis the lands of Spottis with their mill in the stewartry of Kirkcudbricht. This was to be held:

- by Patrick and his heirs
- Failing which by his brother-german Hector and his heirs
- Failing which by Sir John Sinclair of Dridane and his heirs
- Failing which by William, brother-german of John . . .
- Failing which by George, brother-german of John . . .
- Failing which by Mr. William, brother-german of John . . .
- Failing all of which the legitimate and nearest heirs whatsoever of Sir John Sinclair of Dridane.

Attached to this will is a special concession to the brothers Patrick and Hector, bastard sons of the late Edward Sinclair of Dridane, of the faculty of disposing of their lands, etc. (the full Latin abstract is in _Reg. Mag. Sig., 1424-1513_, no. 3867).

This charter has been interpreted, reasonably, I think, to indicate that Sir John and his brothers were the legitimate sons of Edward and thus half-siblings to Patrick and Hector. As far as I know, though, there is no evidence for Edward's origins.

All the best,
Kelsey

[thedr...@gmail.com]

Hi Kelsey,

Yes indeed. We have done just that.
Taken individual photos of each of the panels and ascribed to each one the description in heraldic language. Some are two badly damaged to do that with confidence - so we have a few unknowns still.

Many of course are local Northamptonshire families, connectd through the Cope family, with ID of their arms being easily accomplished locally (there is even access to local churches, houses and memorials that the team can visit and collect photos of)

And yes, this is all being kept in logical files, with an actual template of each heraldic description made up by an artist - electronically.
That is so that everyone agrees on what we are looking at.

On some panels a particular colour may have been lost through the paint removal, but that often leaves a "stain" or shadow that is visible and the charge can still be identified.
It takes time and effort.

After dealing with this (at a distance)for a decade I have become reasonbly familiar with the heraldic terms & rules myself.

Please contact me by email & I'll send you a couple of photos for starters.
And please do remember my duty not to go public with this information that is being compiled by others who are still not yet at a final reporting stage.
That is a genuine concern and the reason why I might seem a little coy on the subject.

Regards
Brian

[thedr...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, March 25, 2017 at 3:07:19 AM UTC+13, Paulo Canedo wrote:
> Mr. Dreadon some weeks ago I tried to add William Sinclair I of Dryden as a son of Henry Sinclair 2nd Earl of Orkney in Wikipedia but most of the other users didn't considerate you a reliable source. Can you provide me with a citation that proves the link in order to convince them.

Hi Paulo,

Sorry I have not been back to the site for a time.
I'll write up something for you with references & post it in the next couple of Days.
William Sinclair the first of Dryden probably has sufficient evidence to place him as the third son of Henry Sinclair the FIRST Earl of Orkney.

The evidence includes a Sinclair of Dryden court case of 1609 that outlines the succession starting with William and there are sinclair of Dryden seals that display the Sinclair engrailed cross *with suitable differencing".

I'll get on to it for you

regards
Brian

[thedr...@gmail.com]

Thaks Kelsy,

There is more to it of course - and I will give you the male line of the family soon - with references from the National Archives of Scotland & the 1609 court case.
Sorry I haven't it ready yet.

In the meantime - Just to recap on the 1521 Inchaffray Charter & add a few more references.

The 1521 Charter from Inchaffray Abbey signed by Johannes Dridene as published by Scottish History Society (1908) Bulls, Charters and other documents relating to the Abbey of Inchaffray.
The lease of 1544 from the same source identifies the wife of Robert Row as Margaret Sinclair.

On the 11th May 1491, the King's letters issued to John Sinclare, "armigero suo", and his successors, granting to him the lands of Wester Row, Banks of Row, … etc in Menteith.

John Sinclair granted Banks of Row to his brother Master William Sinclair, tenant of the Banks of Row, 11th April 1502 - Roland Saint-Clair (1898) “The Saint-Clairs of the Isles” (1898)

William Sinclair of Banks of Row was often cited as Master William Sinclair (e.g. National Archives if Scotland (NAS) GD430/107 - 7 June 1512) to avoid confusion with the second Sinclair of Dryden brother also named William who was in employment within the royal households (e.g. NAS GD3/1/1/52/2 - 3 Feb 1499).

Margaret Sinclair also had a daughter from a Chisholm marriage; in this area a Chisholm husband has a near certainly of having been a descendant of Edmund Chisholm of Cromlix. (On your maps Cromlix is north of Dunblane and near such Sinclair of Dryden held lands as Agaty & Glassingall – easy to find)
Edmund Chisholm's first marriage was to “Margaret Sinclair of the House of Dryden and a widow of Ramsay of Balmain” - The History of the Chisholms, Alexander MacKenzie (1891).

There is a record of Edmund Chisholm as a witness to a Roslin charter of Oliver Sinclair in 1485 - NAS GD18/201. Edmund and his son Thomas Chisholm also appear on a charter to John Ramsay Lord Bothwell, the son of “Ramsay of Balmain” - NAS GD32/26//18.

With considerable evidence accumulation that Margaret Sinclair of the 1521 Inchaffray charter was a member of the extended Sinclair of Dryden family, two obvious options present themselves when attempting to identify “Johannes Dridene”.

Either he is plain John Dryden from a Dryden family (presumably the same one just emerging in the Scottish & English borders from 1527), which would provide a link between Sinclair of Dryden and the Dryden families:

OR, he was Sir John Sinclair of Dryden using the Dryden name in a form that Scottish custom, culture and law allowed him to do, and signing as a witness on behalf of a close relative.

I think the evidence points to the latter option and gives an example of the use of the Dryden name by the Sinclair of Dryden family. Ironically the first option would have profound implications for the possible Dryden family origins at Dryden in Midlothian, but on this occasion I don't think we need to go there.

Regards
Brian

[thedr...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, March 25, 2017 at 3:07:19 AM UTC+13, Paulo Canedo wrote:

> Mr. Dreadon some weeks ago I tried to add William Sinclair I of Dryden as a son of Henry Sinclair 2nd Earl of Orkney in Wikipedia but most of the other users didn't considerate you a reliable source. Can you provide me with a citation that proves the link in order to convince them.

Hi Paulo

Court of Sessions 
1609. Feb. 23. & 1610. Jan. 23.     HENRYSON against SINCLAIR
In an action of transferring, pursued by James Henryson, as heir to Marion Sinclair, his mother, who was only daughter and heir procreate betwixt, Edward Sinclair of Drydane and Margaret Ramsay, his first spouse, daughter to David Ramsay of Bangour, against John Sinclair, his father, who was heir or successor to the said Edward Sinclair, procreated upon Beatrix Renton, his second spouse, which Edward was heir or successor to Sir William Sinclair, his father, party contractor, to hear and see the (contract) matrimonial made betwixt the said Sir John and Edward, his son, on the one part, and the said David Ramsay and his said daughter on the other part, and registered in the official's books of --------, 10th April 1618; whereby Sir John was obliged to infeft his said son and future spouse in the most half, at the least the best half of his lands of Lesswood, Piccars, and Drydane; the Lords found Edward  Sinclair to be successor titulo lucativo to Sir John, his father, by accepting the infeftment contained in the said contract of marriage.
                                                                                            Kerse, MS. Fol. 141

Without the family tree and marriages in front of you, this may be a difficult line of succession to follow.
However, you only need to concentrate on the phrase “...which Edward was the heir and successor to Sir William Sinclair, his father, party contractor...”

The rest of the succession I can give through the National Archives of Scotland down to 1591 when the estates were purchased by John Nicolson & his wife Elizabeth Henryson. The Sinclair of Dryden family line still remained in the feudal chain of succession after 1591 and was required to give consent to charters until an act of Parliament in 1681.

The first note I have of William Sinclair the first "of Dryden" is in 1444, as a witness to an instrument – NAS GD124/1/156.
We are told that William's wife was Agnes and a second Son Edward GD18/422 dated to 1450.

That evidence of his wife Agnes can then take us back to GD18/419 in 1428 when the Bishop of St Andrews grants to William Sinclair & his wife Agnes property in Lasswade (All 3 manors of Dryden, Roslin and Lassade were in the Lasswade Parish).
A significant witness to that charter is Sir Robert Dryden rector of Kinnettles (which is a slight mistake – as he should be “master” Robert Dryden, a clergyman – more later about him later if you wish)

Being able to take the sources back to the 1420s when William Sinclair 1st of Dryden was already a married man suggests he was born closer to 1400 or perhaps even before that date.

There is also proof that William and the Sinclair of Dryden line descended from the Roslin Sinclairs. The seals (of which I have purchsed photographs) of William's son Edward Sinclair GD18/429, Edward's son Sir John Sinclair of Dryden GD18/444, and Sir John's son Edward Sinclair of Dryden GD18/444 all display a shield with the Sinclair of Roslin engrailed cross, with an individualised maternal difference centred on the cross (serendipity).

Back to William Sinclair's parentage, it can be confirmed he has a descent from the Roslin Sinclairs and that he was the party contractor who received Dryden in perpetuity for himself and his heirs. Next - to look to the head of the Roslin family who might have given that grant at about that date and for any son William born to the central Roslin family around that time.

We can immediately rule out William Sinclair the 3rd Earl of Orkney (1408-1480) for any number of reasons – & anyway William Sinclair of Dryden is likely to have been born some years before 1408.

Another William, the youngest of three known sons of Henry St Clair the 1st Earl of Orkney fits the requirements very well in terms of age, location and status.
His existence is confirmed in an English report of 19 August 1405 published by Bain in his Calendar of Scottish Documents, Volume IV, where safe conduct and protection for 6 weeks was given to “... John Seyntclere and William Seyntclere, brothers of the Earl of Orkney, coming to England with 8 servants and returning.“

Henry St Clair 1st Earl of Orkney had died about 1404, leaving the probability that William was granted a place of residence and an income by his brother Henry St Clair 2nd Earl of Orkney.
There is a corroborating record of Henry St Clair 2nd Earl of Orkney granting to his brother John St Clair a charter of the lands of Sunellis, Hope and Logan House in Pentland Moor on 12th September 1410, which makes a further grant of the manor of Driden to his youngest brother around this same time seem plausible.

The descent from William Sinclair 1st of Dryden immediately raises a question that has not yet been firmly conclusively answered.
GD18/422(1450)names Edward as William Sinclair's second son and we have no record of anyone expresly named as the first son. William Sinclair 1st of Dryden died prior to 25 July 1468 GD18/426 – where a tack names Agnes Sinclair as the relict of William Sinclair and Edward her son.

William's missing heir might well be Laurence de Driden of Perth, something which needs to be argued elsewhere. However, we know Laurence died before 1469 and his daughter Agnes Dryden was his heir - GD79/1/28. Those facts would perfactly explain Edward's succession as the second son, with Laurence de Driden as the riginal “fiar” or 'master” of Dryden.

From Edward Sinclair 2nd of Dryden the line continues:
John Sinclair with his spouse Katherine (Ramsay) is Edward Sinclair's son and apparent heir in 1496 – GD18/429.

Then - Instrument of sasine in favour of Edward Sinclair as son & heir of deceased John Sinclair of Dridane Kt – GD18/454 (1536).

Next – a charter by Edward Sinclair of Dryden in favour of John Sinclair, his son and apparent heir, and Catherine Crichton his spouse – GD18/484 (1557).

Then - Assignation by John Sinclair, fiar of Dryden, to John Nicolsone and Elizabeth Hendersone his spouse .. G18/533 (21 May 1591).

Also - Decreet of registration etc between John Sinclare son and apparent heir of John Sinclare of Drydane and Margaret Gifford his spouse … and Mr John Nicolsoun and Elizabeth Henryson his spouse... - GD18/5444 (5 August 1591).


I hope tht sets out the male line of Sinclair of Dryden reasonably well from about 1420 to 1591.

Regards
Brian

[Paulo Canedo]

Mr.Dreadon I was wrong when I talked I had indeed tried to add William as son of the FIRST earl of Orkney not the second. But anyways thanks for the evidence.

[Gordon Banks]

Please keep us posted as the many descendants of the Marbury/Hutchinson lines have connections to the Copes and Drydens.

> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

[Kelsey Jackson Williams]

Dear Brian et al.,

Thanks for this. Now that Matt Tompkins has photographed the panels in their entirety, though (for which many thanks, Matt!), hopefully we should be able to actually discuss this potential source properly.

To clarify: Matt has now been to Canons Ashby and attempted a post on the subject which hasn't yet appeared but which he forwarded to Brian and me. In his investigation of the panels, Matt was unable to identify any which matched Brian's description of Hamilton or Lindsay and was not confident of the identification of one very basic coat - argent, with some sort of darkish fess - as Charteris of Amisfield.

I'm afraid this seems to support one of my concerns about these supposedly Scottish panels: namely that they've been misidentified. Brian: it would be very good to see your reasoning for identifying three of the panels as Charteris, Hamilton, and Lindsay respectively, so that we can talk through why those identifications might or might not hold.

All the best,
Kelsey

[Matt Tompkins]

From: Brian Dreadon [thedr...@gmail.com]

Sent: 21 March 2017 22:11

<snip>

> I intially got some adverse reaction for suggesting a link between the
Drydens in Cumberland and the Dacre family, but the case is strong as the
Dacre arms and crest appear prominently in Canons Ashby House.

The many panels in the room now denoted as the Servants Hall form a kind of
family tree, dominated by the English marriages from the Cope family and
adding the Wilkes and Foxly children's marriages just before 1580.

>

> But beside the Dacre arms are those of Charteris of Amisfield located in
Dumfriesshire in the Scottish borders.

Just as a hint of what can be written up, the trial of William Dacre for
Treason in 1534 for working together with Scottish border Lords had it's
main evidence incrimating Robert Charteris of Amisfield and Walter Scott of
Branxholme. Co-incidently (as I'm always told it is) Thomas Dryden witnessed
the melrose Abby charter assignin him Baillery of the Abbey lands in 1534.

>

> The other identified Scottish armas are Hamilton and Lindsay of the Byres.

> Patrick Sinclair of Dryden's son married a Hamilton, as did his two
grand-daughters - one Hamilton of Bothwellhaugh who assasinated the Scottish
regent.

> But Lindsay of the Byres - we haven't got a clue as to suggesting any
"co-incidental" family relationship.

>

-------------------------------

It's Mothering Sunday, so we took my mother-in-law out, and decided to go to
Canons Ashby. I had a good look at the heraldic displays in the former
Winter Parlour (latterly the Servants' Hall) and at the volunteer guides'
notes on the arms depicted. I also managed to photograph all the arms
before my bored son dragged me out. If anyone would like to see the photos
I'll send them off-list. They're not perfect - the lighting conditions
weren't great- but I think you can see the arms nearly as clearly as you can
in the room itself (which is not always very clearly - some of the panels
are badly faded, and others appear to have been defaced at some point).



It is fairly easy to identify the panel which Brian believes to be Charteris
of Amisfield. The guides' typed notes leave it unidentified, but someone
has added 'Charteris' in pencil. The panel is not in good condition, and
one can only say with confidence that it seems to be 'Argent with a
dark-coloured fess'. The basic Charteris coat is 'Argent, a fess azure'.



I can't identify the ones which may show Hamilton or Lindsay of the Byres,
however. The former coat would presumably be 'Gules, 3 cinquefoils argent'
and the latter 'Gules, a fess chequy argent and azure, in chief 3 stars
argent', or some variants thereof, but I can't see anything resembling
those, even among the faded and barely discernible arms. The guides' notes
don't identify any of the panels as either of them.



There is one panel which has 'Gules, a fess chequy argent and sable between
6 crosses paty fitchy argent' and another which is 'Or, a chevron chequy
argent and gules between three dark-coloured cinquefoils'. The guides'
notes leave both unidentified, though 'Boteler' has been pencilled in for
the former.



Could you say which are the panels which show the Hamilton and Lyndsay arms,
Brian?



Matt Tompkins

[sport...@gmail.com]

History in Britain is quite convoluted and things which seem apparant quite often are not. I love British history and like to spare time to strip it down and cross reference and find out the facts from the not so facts. I am pretty sure that the name Dryden is not of Pictish origins if so why is it pronounced in Anglo Saxon English? Also the name Marbury and Walton which are also both of Anglo Saxon decent as the word 'bury' describes a fortified settlement and the word 'ton' means town in Old English. Sadly we do'nt know the pictish language and scotts Gaelic is of Irish decent as we know Scotland takes it's name from one of the two main tribes from Irland who invaded northern Britain and annihilated the pictish people in the west of what is now Scotland in the late fourth century so you would have thought that the name Dryden would have at least a Gaelic equivalent?. Dryden is locational description as far as i have found and it seems the largest gathering of the name in the British isles today is in northern England. Any comments?

[celticp...@gmail.com]

On my mother's side, I descend from the Dryden family of St. Boswells, Roxburghshire, Scotland. This locality is just over the northern border of England. I haven't checked if the Y DNA has been determined for my male Dryden relatives who reside in Canada. My guess, however, is that the DNA of my male Dryden relatives would be a near match to the Y DNA of modern English Drydens.

Best always, Douglas Richardson

[Crystal Roy]

My great great grandfathers name is John Dryden. This is as far back as I have been able to trace my Dryden family history.