Talbot Tangle - Joan [Talbot], Lady Berkeley
Brad Verity
4thly, (settl. 25 July 1457) Joan, da. of John (Talbot), 1st Earl of
Shrewsbury, by his 1st wife, Maud, da. of Thomas (Nevill), Lord
Furnival, which Joan was consequently step-da. of Margaret, Countess
of Shrewsbury abovenamed ... His widow m., before 26 May 1474, Edmund
Hungerford."
No source is cited for any of the above, but probably the main source
was Smyth's 'Lives of the Berkeleys'.
In _Gloucestershire's Forgotten Battle: Nibley Green 1470_ by Peter
Fleming & Michael Wood (Stroud, Gloucestershire: Tempus Publishing,
2003), p. 47: "The death of these two John Talbots, father and son
[1st Earl of Shrewsbury and 1st Lord Lisle], changed everything. The
second earl of Shrewsbury, another John, was the son of the previous
earl by his first marriage. Margaret [Beauchamp, second wife of 1st
Earl of Shrewsbury] had tried and failed to disinherit the children of
her predecessor, and there was now deep enmity between Earl John and
his step-mother. He did not share Margaret's obsession with the
Berkeley inheritance. After his succession, hostilities between
Berkeley and Talbot all but ceased and in July 1457 the two families
made a genuine peace. The pact was sealed by a remarkable marriage.
At the age of sixty-three James, Lord Berkeley, took to wife Joan,
sister of the second earl of Shrewsbury ... In the words of Smyth, by
this marriage Berkeley 'not only gave strength to his own affaires,
but hee weakened the power of the adverse party'. [footnote: 'Lives',
p. 82] Not everyone in the Berkeley camp was happy with the Talbot
marriage. [footnote: The following is based on 'Lives', pp. 75-6,
81-2] Smyth believed that Sir William, son and heir of Lord James,
regarded his new step-mother as a manipulator, taking advantage of her
husband's weaknesses 'by beating upon ye weake pulse of her husbands
old age'."
All well and good background to the Berkeley/Talbot union, but the
chronology for the bride Joan Talbot seems very off.
Maud, heiress of Furnival, the first wife of the 1st Earl of
Shrewsbury, was dead "about 1423" [CP, Volume 11, p. 703]. If Joan
was Maud's daughter then the latest she could have been born was 1423.
The 2nd Earl of Shrewsbury was born about 1413. This means Joan was
at least age 34 at her marriage to Lord Berkeley, quite an advanced
age to wed for the first time.
Indeed, the two younger daughters of the 1st Earl of Shrewsbury (by
his second wife, Margaret Beauchamp), were married off years before
Joan was. Eleanor Talbot, born about 1436, was married in 1449-50,
when she was about 13 or 14, to Sir Thomas Butler, aged about 28, the
only son and heir of Ralph Butler, Lord Sudeley. Elizabeth Talbot,
born about 1443, was married "by 27 Nov. 1448" [CP, Volume 9, p. 609,
citing 'B.M.Add.Chr. 15779' as its source] to John Mowbray, aged about
4, the only son and heir of the Duke of Norfolk.
That Mowbray was given a child bride makes sense, given he was but a
child himself. But why was Butler, a knight pushing 30, given a bride
who was a young teen and would probably have to put off childbearing
for a couple years, instead of her elder sister, who was in her 20s
and much closer to his age?
Why did the 1st Earl of Shrewsbury not arrange a marriage for his
eldest daughter Joan while he was alive, but in the meantime arranged
the marriages for his much younger daughters? Joan had to wait until
4 years after her father's death for her brother to arrange a marriage
for her. One could argue that it was her wicked stepmother Margaret,
trying to disinherit her stepchildren, who prevented a marriage for
Joan. But then why was the marriage of the 2nd Earl of Shrewsbury to
Elizabeth Butler, sister of the Earl of Ormond, allowed to take place,
before March 1445? This was the immediate heir of the 1st Earl of
Shrewsbury's first marriage.
Collins's Peerage - in its article on the Earls of Berkeley - says
Joan Talbot was the daughter of the 1st Earl of Shrewsbury by his
second wife Margaret. This makes more sense chronologically. It is
even possible that she was the daughter of the 2nd Earl of Shrewsbury
and Elizabeth Butler, whose eldest son was born in 1448.
Is there any contemporary evidence that Joan Talbot, Lady Berkeley,
was the daughter of Maud Neville of Furnival?
Cheers, ------Brad
Brad Verity
> No source is cited for any of the above, but probably the main source
> was Smyth's 'Lives of the Berkeleys'.
> Is there any contemporary evidence that Joan Talbot, Lady Berkeley,
> was the daughter of Maud Neville of Furnival?
Many thanks to Tim Powys-Lybbe, who informed me that Smyth does not
say who Joan Talbot's mother was - only that she was the sister of the
2nd Earl of Shrewsbury.
Smyth has been wrong on some other points about the medieval
Berkeleys, so the Berkeley charters (if they still exist) that he used
as his sources should be double-checked.
In the meantime, I've been trying to ascertain exactly who was the
second husband of Joan Talbot. The only 15th-century Edmund
Hungerford I can find is Sir Edmund Hungerford, of Down Ampney,
Gloucestershire (d. 27 Mar. 1486, IPM 30 Oct. 1486), younger son of
Walter, 1st Lord Hungerford, and Catherine Peverel. The geography and
chronology would seem to work.
Cheers, ----Brad
> Cheers, ------Brad