Parentage of Robert Muscegros

[The Hoorn]

Trying to pin down whether or not Robert Muscegros who married Hawise Malet, and identified as a son of Richard Muscegros (http://www.finerollshenry3.org.uk/content/calendar/roll_015.html#it255_004d), was the son of the Richard and Alice (Dive) Muscegros named in this record:

http://www.finerollshenry3.org.uk/content/calendar/roll_027.html#d1515603e20955

Any insight would be appreciated.

Thanks!

[The Hoorn]

A much better version:

http://www.finerollshenry3.org.uk/content/calendar/roll_027.html#it094_007

[The Hoorn]

This record seems to be the closest thing to answer my question:

https://books.google.com/books?id=03tbAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA38&lpg=PA38&dq=alice+de+dive+muscegros&source=bl&ots=IxtKqDFU3f&sig=su7T0nOoYdXRs1uLH7GL0yzMcd0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=L3axVJSPBMTksAS__IDwCA&ved=0CB0Q6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=alice%20de%20dive%20muscegros&f=false

[Jakub Mirza Lipka via]

The IPM for Robert's daughter Alicia, co-heiress of her brother John, shows that she died holding the manor of East Haddon that was previously in the possession of Matilda de Dyve, grandmother of Richard's wife Alicia.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=aN8LIGHxNYwC&pg=PA196&dq=%22de+mucegros%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=OqSwVJ7mCtLPaNOogZAH&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAjgy#v=onepage&q=%22de%20mucegros%22&f=false

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Steve ~

The man you are seeking is Richard de Muscegros [died c.1245], of Brewham, Somerset. This Richard de Muscegros was the father of Sir Robert de Muscegros [died 1254], of Brewham, Charlton Musgrove, and Norton, Somerset, and Boddington and Kemerton, Gloucestershire, and, in right of his wife, of Great Finborough, Suffolk and Fisherton de la Mare, Wiltshire, Steward of Queen Eleanor of Provence. Sir Robert de Muscegros's 2nd wife was Hawise Malet, daughter of the Magna Carta baron, William Malet.

For a charter of this Richard de Muscegros (died c.1245), see Ross, Cartulary of St. Mark's Hospital, Bristol (Bristol Rec. Soc. 21) (1959): 158, which may be viewed at the following weblink:

https://books.google.com/books?id=rD0SAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA158

Richard de Muscegros' property at Brewham, Somerset is likewise mentioned in a fine dated 1248-9. See Fry & Fry, Abs. of Feet of Fines Rel. Dorset 1 (Dorset Rec. Soc. 5) (1896): 158-159, which is available at the following weblink:

https://books.google.com/books?id=yxg5AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA158

Richard de Muscegros (died c.1245) could be the man of that name who occurs alone in a Somerset fine dated 1226-1227, and with a wife, Grace (daughter of Ralph de Vaux) in fines dated 1235-1236 and 1248-1249. See Green, Feet of Fines for Somerset 1 (Somerset Rec. Soc. 6) (1892): 64-65, 88-89, 91-92, 143, which may be viewed at the following weblinks:

https://books.google.com/books?id=_zGLHJrweFAC&pg=PA88

https://books.google.com/books?id=_zGLHJrweFAC&pg=PA91

https://books.google.com/books?id=_zGLHJrweFAC&pg=PA143

Richard de Muscegros and his wife, Grace, likewise occur in a Dorset fine dated 1235-6. See Fry & Fry, Abs. of Feet of Fines Rel. Dorset 1 (Dorset Rec. Soc. 5) (1896): 57, available at the following weblink:

https://books.google.com/books?id=yxg5AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA57

My guess, however, is that the Richard de Muscegros who married Grace de Vaux is the Richard de Muscegros, living 1221, who was the son and heir apparent of Sir Robert de Muscegros [died 1254]. This Richard de Muscegros was not a son of Hawise Malet; rather, he was born to a previous marriage of Sir Robert de Muscegros. He appears to have died without issue sometime before 1254.

The third Richard de Muscegros, with a wife, Alice (heiress of the Dive family), who is associated with East Haddon, Northamptonshire and Arrington, Cambridgeshire is a completely different man from Richard de Muscegros, of Brewham, Somerset. You can certain of this as that Richard's son, Robert de Muscegros, was still living in 1262, and was survived by 1269, by a wife, Beatrice. See VCH Cambridge 5 (1973): 140-147, which may be viewed at the following weblink:

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/cambs/vol5/pp140-147

So you have two different men named Richard de Muscegros, both with a son, Robert. Needless to say, same names do not always equal same people in the medieval period.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

[ericgil...@gmail.com]

On Monday, January 12, 2015 at 2:53:10 AM UTC+13, Jakub Mirza Lipka via wrote:
> The IPM for Robert's daughter Alicia, co-heiress of her brother John, shows that she died holding the manor of East Haddon that was previously in the possession of Matilda de Dyve, grandmother of Richard's wife Alicia.
>
> https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=aN8LIGHxNYwC&pg=PA196&dq=%22de+mucegros%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=OqSwVJ7mCtLPaNOogZAH&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAjgy#v=onepage&q=%22de%20mucegros%22&f=false

This individual was not daughter of Robert, but daughter of Simon de Mucegros whose wife was Ascelina de Dives, daughter and heiress of William de Dives and Maud de Waterville.
Eric

[ericgil...@gmail.com]

Technically that's co-heiress.
Eric

[The Hoorn]

Douglas:

Thanks for helping me clear this one up. Another limb on the tree properly pruned and accounted for.

Sir Richard Muscegros (the one who died in 1245), had a mother named Hilary Foliet. In 2004, I posted this inquiry but no one weighed in. I found the following entry, it concerned a charter of Richard Muscegros in 1200.

Rotuli Chartarum in Turri Londinensi asservati, ed. Thomas Duffus
Hardy (London: Printed by G. Eyre and A. Spottiswoode, 1837), 51b,
Memb. 8: called "Ric de Muzegros fil Hilari filie Willi Folet," as of
xxvj April, Anno 1 John.

Complete charter can be found here:

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5558666w/f100.image.langEN

Looks like Hilary's father was named William. What I am trying to figure out is where this William Foliet fits into the family tree:
See here:

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISHNOBILITYMEDIEVAL3D-K.htm#_Toc389046294

Any insights?

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Steve ~

There is a record of the desired Muscegros family in VCH Gloucester 8 (1968): 188-196 (sub Boddington), which may be viewed at the following weblink:

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/glos/vol8/pp188-196#h3-0002

It sets forth a pedigree of the Muscegros family, and it includes Richard de Muscegros, father of Sir Robert de Muscegros.

It states Richard de Muscegros was confirmed in his estate of 3 hides in Boddington, Gloucestershire in 1200, and cites the same record which you have mentioned, namely Hardy, Rotuli Chartarum in Turri Londinensi asservati 1(1) (1837): 51.

The record in Rotuli Chartarum is dated 26 April 1200. It refers to "Richard de Muzegros" as "son of Hilary daughter of William Folet". It mentions the three hides in Becinton, which place is evidently intended for Boddington, Gloucestershire. The record also mentions Richard's father [patris], Richard de Muzegros. So you have the names of both parents.

Other localities mentioned are Akeberg [i.e., Hatherley], Deerhurst, Strode, Westgrave, and Wichfeld (in Deerhurst). Deerhurst is in Gloucestershire.

VCH Gloucester also refers to an article on the Muscegros family which you may wish to consult:

"The Family of Muchgros," in Trans. Birmingham Arch. Soc. 47 (1924): 8-34.

[Joe]

>
> "The Family of Muchgros," in Trans. Birmingham Arch. Soc. 47 (1924): 8-34.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Volume 47 'for the year 1921', but printed in 1924, is available here:

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.a0002762052;view=1up;seq=13

[al...@mindspring.com]

> Volume 47 'for the year 1921', but printed in 1924, is available here:
>
> http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.a0002762052;view=1up;seq=13

Will take a while to digest the above article but Houghton seemed to think that the East Haddon branch was part of the same family as the Boddingham branch. He says that the Richard he calls Richard I and his descendants held at:

He and descendants held at:

Badgworth, English Bicknor, Boddington, Down Hatherley, Kemerton, Longford, Taynton, Gloucestershire
Brewham, Charlton Musgrave, Norton Ferris, Stowell, Somersetshire
Little Compton (now Warws.)
West Compton, Hamgstead, Berkshire
East Haddon, Northants
Sheffield Park with Fletching, Sussex

Doug Smith

[ericgil...@gmail.com]

On Monday, January 12, 2015 at 11:57:39 AM UTC+13, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> Dear Steve ~

>

> My guess, however, is that the Richard de Muscegros who married Grace de Vaux is the Richard de Muscegros, living 1221, who was the son and heir apparent of Sir Robert de Muscegros [died 1254]. This Richard de Muscegros was not a son of Hawise Malet; rather, he was born to a previous marriage of Sir Robert de Muscegros. He appears to have died without issue sometime before 1254.

Or maybe not. On 6 June 1255 Richard and John Mucegros made a fine over a carucate of land in Boddington according to C. Elrington, Glos Feet of Fines, 108. Richard couldn't have been an elder brother, so perhaps he was a younger one, and his mother could have been Hawise Malet?
Eric

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Steve ~

In a previous post, I stated that Richard de Muscegros (died c.1245) [father of Sir Robert de Muscegros] could be the man of that name who occurs alone in a Somerset fine dated 1226-1227, and with a wife, Grace (daughter of Ralph de Vaux) in fines dated 1235-1236 and 1248-1249. See Green, Feet of Fines for Somerset 1 (Somerset Rec. Soc. 6) (1892): 64-65, 88-89, 91-92, 143, which may be viewed at the following weblinks:

https://books.google.com/books?id=_zGLHJrweFAC&pg=PA88

https://books.google.com/books?id=_zGLHJrweFAC&pg=PA91

https://books.google.com/books?id=_zGLHJrweFAC&pg=PA143

Richard de Muscegros and his wife, Grace, likewise occur in a Dorset fine dated 1235-6. See Fry & Fry, Abs. of Feet of Fines Rel. Dorset 1 (Dorset Rec. Soc. 5) (1896): 57, available at the following weblink:

https://books.google.com/books?id=yxg5AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA57

It appears that Gerald Paget in his Baronage of England identifies the Richard de Muscegros and his wife, Grace, as the parents of Sir Robert de Muscegros (husband of Hawise Malet). See the following weblink:

https://histfam.familysearch.org//getperson.php?personID=I11295&tree=PagetHeraldicBaronag

However, this arrangement of the Muscegros pedigree is impossible. Grace de Vaux can be readily identified as the Grace de Vaux, daughter of Ranulph de Vaux, of Cumberland, who the king ordered to be liberated in 1212, along with her widowed mother, Alice, and her nephew, Hubert de Vaux. See Rotuli Litterarum Patentium, 14 John, p. 96.

Sometime before 24 April 1229 Grace de Vaux married as her 1st husband, William de Wydworthy. Grace and William had Compton, Somerset by the grant of her mother, Alice de Vaux. For evidence of Grace's first marrriage, see Calendar of Close Rolls, 1227-1231 (1902): 169, which may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://www.archive.org/stream/closerollsofreig01grea#page/168/mode/2up

The full Close Rolls record reads as follows:

"Pro Willelmo de Widiworth et uxore ejus. - Quia constat domino regis per inquisicionem, quam fiere fecit, quod Eustachius de Durevill' tribus annis antequam suspenderetur per felonia de qua convictus fuit, vendiderat Alicie de Vallibus quendam redditum in Cumpton', et quod eadem Alicia redditum eundem dederat Willelmo de Wydiworth' in maritagium cum Gretia filia sua; quem quidem redditum vicecomes Sumerset' cepit in manum domini regis occasione suspensionis ipsius Eustachii; mandatum est eidem vicecomiti quod de predicto redditu talem saisinam ipsis Willelmo et Gretie habere faciat qualem inde habuerunt antequam captus fuit in manum domini regis occasione predicta. Teste rege apud Windles', xxiiij die Aprilis." END OF QUOTE.

Given that Grace de Vaux was a young unmarried woman in 1212 and was the wife of William Wydworthy in 1229, it is impossible for her to be the mother of Sir Robert de Muscegros (husband of Hawise Malet) who was born say 1185.

It is likewise impossible that Grace de Vaux's second husband, Richard de Muscegros, is the man who was the father of Sir Robert de Muscegros. Richard and Grace occur together in a fine as late as 1248-9, when Sir Robert de Muscegros's father was already deceased.

Given that Sir Robert de Muscegros had a brother and a son both named Richard de Muscegros, it would seem likely that one of these other Richard's is the Richard de Muscegros who married Grace de Vaux. Looking at the chronology, my guess would be that it is Sir Robert de Muscegros' brother Richard de Muscegros who married Grace de Vaux.

All I can say is that there are too many men named Richard de Muscegros.

[al...@mindspring.com]

It is too bad they only copied half of the main pedigree chart...

Has anyone found another copy of this journal online?

Doug Smith

[John Watson]

Hi Douglas,

I don't know why you are all having so many problems with this.

Richard de Muscegros, d. about 1200 married Hilary Folet, one of the three daughters of William Folet of Castlemorton, Worcestershire (a.k.a. Morton Folet).

They had two sons, Richard (born about 1180) and Simon. Richard married Alice de Dive, daughter of Hugh son of William de Dive and Simon married her sister Asceline. Richard died before 1237, leaving a son and heir Sir Robert de Muscegros.

Sir Robert de Muscegros, born about 1200, married Hawise, daughter and co-heir of William Malet II, of Curry Malet, Somerset, and widow of Hugh de Poyntz (d. 1220). He died before 23 January 1254 and was succeeded by his son John.

John de Muscegros was born about 1232. He married Cecily (or Dulcia) Avenel, only daughter and heiress of William Avenel (d. bef. 21 April 1236) of English Bicknor, Gloucestershire. John de Muscegros died before 8 May 1275, leaving a son and heir Robert. Cecily died before 10 August 1301.

Robert de Muscegros, born about 1252, married firstly, unknown and secondly about 1278, Agnes de Ferrers. He died about 10 December 1280, leaving an only daughter and heiress, Hawise by his first unknown wife.

Hawise de Muscegros, born 21 December 1276, married, before September 1300, John de Ferrers, Lord Ferrers of Chartley, Staffordshire. She died before 1350.

Regards,

John

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear John ~

It is the bane of medieval history to confuse two men of the same name and morph them into one person.

Your Muscegros pedigree has a serious flaw. The Richard de Muscegros, with a wife, Alice (heiress of the Dive family), who is associated with East Haddon, Northamptonshire and Arrington and Hinxton, Cambridgeshire is a completely different man from Richard de Muscegros, of Boddington, Gloucestershire, Brewham, Somerset, etc. You can certain of this as that Richard's son, Robert de Muscegros, was still living in 1262, and was survived by 1269, by a wife, Beatrice. See VCH Cambridge 5 (1973): 140-147, which may be viewed at the following weblink:

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/cambs/vol5/pp140-147

In a related vein, Paget's Baronage of England alleges that the Richard de Muscegros who married Alice de Dive was the brother of Sir Robert de Muscegros (husband of Hawise Malet). That could be correct, but I don't know what evidence Paget used to make that identification. As far as I know, his identification of Alice de Dive's husband is merely a guess. If wishes were fishes, we'd have evidence to back all these wild guesses. But we don't.

As for the death date of Richard de Muscegros (father of Sir Robert de Muscegros), I earlier cited Ross, Cartulary of St. Mark's Hospital, Bristol (Bristol Rec. Soc. 21) (1959): 158, who states that Richard de Muscegros died c.1245. However, VCH Gloucester 8 (1968): 188-196 (sub Boddington) states that Richard de Muscegros died by 1237, in which year his son Robert was granted free warren in his demesne at Boddington, Gloucestershire.

As for other details of Richard de Muscegros, I find that he was Sheriff of Gloucestershire, 1206-1208. See List of Sheriffs for England & Wales (PRO Lists and Indexes 9) (1898): 49. Paget, Baronage of England indicates that Richard de Muscegros was Constable of Cirencester Castle in 1208.

As already noted in an earlier post, Richard de Muscegros was living in 1221, when he served as a pledge for his son, Sir Robert de Muscegros. Trans. Birmingham Arch. Soc. 47 (1924): 16 indicates that Richard de Muscegros (father of Sir Robert) was living in September 1226, when his manor of Boddington, Gloucestershire was in the hands of Hamo the Jew of Hereford. So it would appear that Richard de Muscegros (father of Sir Robert de Muscegros) died sometime between 1226 and 1237.

Elsewhere I might note that Richard de Muscegros (father of Sir Robert de Muscegros) is mentioned in Ross, Cartulary of Cirencester Abbey 1 (1964): 249. This book is only available in snippet view through Google Books, so I'm unable to provide the exact particulars.

In summary, it is proven that Richard de Muscegros (living 1226, dead by 1237) is not the man who married Alice de Dive. At the present time, the name of his wife is unknown.

[The Hoorn]

On Tuesday, January 13, 2015 at 10:49:30 AM UTC-5, John Watson wrote:
>
> Richard de Muscegros, d. about 1200 married Hilary Folet, one of the three daughters of William Folet of Castlemorton, Worcestershire (a.k.a. Morton Folet).

Hi John:

I would be curious what info you may have on William Folet. Other than Hilary, what are the names of other offspring? William's parents?

Thanks.

Steve

[al...@mindspring.com]

Steve

see 'Parishes: Longdon', in A History of the County of Worcester: Volume 4, ed. William Page and J W Willis-Bund (London, 1924), pp. 111-118 http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/worcs/vol4/pp111-118 [accessed 13 January 2015].


on Foliot/Folet.

Doug Smith

[John Watson]

Dear Steve,

Two other daughters of William Folet of Castlemorton appear in the two deeds below, which are attested by their brother-in-law Sir Richard Muscegros. There is no indication that they were married.

Ca. 1220. -- Grant from Agnes Folet, daughter of William Folet, to the Hospital of St. Bartholomew between the Bridges of Gloucester of a virgate of land in the town of Morton lying in five fields; to wit, in the field called 'Samfrayburhoc' six acres ; in the field called 'Ruhelde' seven acres; in the field called 'Stanling' three acres; in the field called ' Holibed' four acres; in the field called 'Loueles Ruding' four acres; and all her share of the meadow of Frewine; and housebote and haybote in her wood of Maluern' sufficient to maintain the said virgate of land in Morton. Witnesses : Sir William of Kardif, Knight ; Sir Peter of Stanton, Knight ; Sir Richard Muchegros, Knight; Gilbert the Cook ; Robert Wawepol; Odo of the Hill; Walter Mose; John Wawepol Geoffrey of Yuonton
W. H. Stevenson, ed., Calendar of the Records of Gloucester Corporation (1893), 102, No. 159.

Ca. 1220. -- Grant from Amfelisa Folet, daughter of William Folet, to the Hospital of St. Bartholomew between the Bridges of Gloucester of all her portion of the land assigned to her in the field called 'Louel Ruding' and all her portion of the meadow of Frewine assigned to her. Witnesses : Sir Richard Muchegros; Gilbert the Cook ; Robert Wawepol; Hed' of the Hill ; Walter Mose ; Nicholas of Sawe.
W. H. Stevenson, ed., Calendar of the Records of Gloucester Corporation (1893), 103, No. 161.

Richard Muscegros also gave land in Castlemorton to the Hospital of St. Bartholomew:

Ca. 1220. -- Grant from Richard of Muchegros, son of Richard of Muchegros, to the Hospital of St Bartholomew of Gloucester of two acres of land in Mortona in the field called 'Holibed,' extending from Lepchiet to Hauecheresbroc near Soletherue. Witnesses : Dom. Richard, Prior of Little Malvern, Dom. Roger the Chaplain, of Mort[on] ; Odo of the Hill (de Monte) ; Gilbert the Cook ; Robert Wawepol ; Walter Mose
W. H. Stevenson, ed., Calendar of the Records of Gloucester Corporation (1893), 114, No. 197.

I have no information on the ancestors of William Folet, although if you look through the above publication you can find other members of the Folet family, but their relationship with William is not shown.
See also: 'Parishes: Castlemorton', in A History of the County of Worcester: Volume 4, ed. William Page and J W Willis-Bund (London, 1924), pp. 49-53
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/worcs/vol4/pp49-53

Regards,

John

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Steve ~

John Watson has kindly posted abstracts of three charters for the Muscegros and Folet families taken from Stevenson, Calendar of the Records of the Corporation of Gloucester (1893). In one of them, a certain Sir Richard, Prior of Little Malvern witnessed the charter of Sir Richard de Muscegros to the Hospital of St Bartholomew of Gloucester about 1220.

Elsewhere I find that VCH Worcester 2 (1971): 143-147 indicates that a Reynold Folet granted the advowson and chapel of Eldersfield in Longdon, Worcestershire to Little Malvern Priory and that William Folet confirmed the grant of land in the town of 'Bichemers' to the same priory.

These two grants were confirmed by Giles de Brewes, Bishop of Hereford, who held that office from 1200 to 1215.

It appears that John Watson missed one important charter for the Muscegros family in Stevenson's Calendar on page 89.

This is a grant dated c.1210 by Richard de Muchegros to the Hospital of St. Bartholomew of Gloucester and the Brethren of the same of three acres of meadow in Bowernia on the Severn, which three acres he holds of Walter of Le Mans. He also grants various rents in Gloucester, the money of which is to be used for a lamp in the said Hospital, shoes for 13 people, and for five beds in the Hospital. Richard de Muchegros made this grant "for his soul and the souls of Hellaria, daughter of William Folet, and of the infantes of the said Richard and Hellaria."

The above charter may be viewed at the following weblink:

https://books.google.com/books?id=JsRCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA89

The grantor of this charter appears to have been Richard de Muscegros (husband of Hillary Folet), which individual was the grandfather of Sir Robert de Muscegros (husband of Hawise Malet). If so, this charter would necessarily date from before 1200, not c.1210 as dated by the modern editor.

A brief abstract of this same charter albeit dated c.1220 is published in MSS of the Duke of Beaufort, K.G., The Earl of Donoughmore, & others (Hist. MSS. Comm. 12th Rpt., App., Pt. IX) (1891): 410. The charter may be viewed at the following weblink:

https://books.google.com/books?id=pg0RAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA410

Another abstract of the same charter of Richard de Muchegros albeit dated c.1210 is mentioned in Trans. of Leicestershire & Arch. Soc. 9 (1904-5): 267, which may be viewed at the following weblink:

https://books.google.com/books?id=4t0xAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA267

Elsewhere I find that MSS. of the Earl of Westmorland, Captain Stewart, Lord Stafford, Lord Muncaster, & Others (Hist. MSS Comm. 10th Rpt., App., Pt. IV) (1885, reissued 1906): 416 includes a charter for yet another Richard de Muchegros. It reads as follows:

Grant by Richard de Muchegros to Walter de Clifford, son of William de Clifford, in free marriage with Rose his daughter, of the land which he bought of Osbert Donvill in the vill of Nash (Eshse). Witnesses: Walter de Clifford, Roger de Clifford, and eight others named.

The above record may be viewed at the following weblink:

https://books.google.com/books?id=p0Q_AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA416

The above charter was also published in Trans. of Shropshire Arch. & Natural Hist. Soc. 11 (1887): 412, which may be viewed at the following weblink:

https://books.google.com/books?id=UnpHAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA412

The charter presumably dates from c.1200 to c.1300, or thereabouts.

[The Hoorn]

Douglas/John:

First thanks for these posts. Greatly appreciated.

Based on what I have read, especially on Folet/Foliet/Folliott family, this was what I have been able to discern, from 'Parishes: Longdon', in A History of the County of Worcester: Volume 4, ed. William Page and J W Willis-Bund (London, 1924), pp. 111-118:

"At a very early date, probably before 1166, (fn. 40) the Abbot of Westminster granted the manor of Longdon at fee farm (fn. 41) to the Folliotts, William Folliott in 1166 holding a knight's fee in Worcestershire and Gloucestershire under the abbot. (fn. 42) He had a charter from Henry II granting to him and his heirs in hereditary fee all his assarts in Worcestershire, whatever he and his father occupied 'after justice was done with regard to the moneyers of Marlborough.' (fn. 43) In 1175-6 William Folliott of Worcestershire paid 10 marks surety money to the Treasury. (fn. 44) He was the son of Sir Richard Folliott of Bickmarsh in Warwickshire (fn. 45) and married first Audrey daughter of Peter de Saltmarsh, and secondly Cecily widow of William de Staunton. (fn. 46) He was alive in 1189- 90. (fn. 47) His heir Reynold Folliott (fn. 48) died before 1208, in which year Robert Folliott gave 50 marks and a palfrey for the lands of his brother Reynold. (fn. 49) Robert married Emma daughter of William and Cecily de Staunton, (fn. 50) and confirmed to her (fn. 51) a grant made by his father of all his new assarts in Longdon. (fn. 52) Robert was apparently succeeded early in the 13th century by his son Reynold, who confirmed the manor of Longdon to his mother Emma as dower. (fn. 53) Reynold Folliott was parson of the church of Longdon, (fn. 54) and died without issue, when this inheritance passed to his four aunts, Agnes, Avice, Amphyllis and Akyna, sisters of Robert Folliott. (fn. 55)..."

In a nutshell, William Folliott was the son of Sir Richard Folliott of Bickmarsh in Warwickshire. William married first Audrey daughter of Peter de Saltmarsh. By this union, William had Hilary who married Richard Muscegros; Agnes, Avice, Amphyllis and Akyna, and Robert Folliott.

Does this make sense? Any insights are welcomed.

Steve

[The Hoorn]

One more item I turned up, this time from Parishes: Welford-on-Avon', in A History of the County of Warwick: Volume 5, Kington Hundred, ed. L F Salzman (London, 1949), pp. 189-193:

BICKMARSH was given by King Edgar in 967 to his thegn Brihtnoth, who at once conveyed it with his son, who was entering the monastic life, to Oswald, Archbishop of York, to the use of the monks of St. Mary's, Worcester. (fn. 19) They were deprived of it by Eadwine, brother of Earl Leofwine, (fn. 20) and by the end of the reign of Edward the Confessor it was held by one Edith. She retained the estate in 1086, when 5 hides in Bickmarsh were held by her in Warwickshire under the heading 'The King's Alms' (fn. 21) and 1 hide in Gloucestershire among 'The Lands of the King's Thegns'. (fn. 22) Richard Foliot gave a virgate in Bickmarsh to the Priory of Little Malvern at, or shortly after, its foundation in 1171, (fn. 23) which gift was confirmed after his death and not later than 1178 (fn. 24) by his son William, who added another virgate, half in the field of Thushul and half in Elfnadesmer; in consideration of which grant the monks were to receive him into their community when he desired. (fn. 25) The charter was witnessed by his wife Cecily and his son Richard.

19. Birch, Cart. Sax. iii, 1201.
20. V.C.H. Warw. i, 278.
21. Ibid. 341.
22. Dom. Bk. (Rec. Com.), i, 170.
23. V.C.H. Worcs. ii, 143.
24. The charter was witnessed by Roger, Prior of (Great) Malvern, who was transferred to Burton in that year; ibid. 142.
25. Dugdale, Mon. Angl. iv, 449; Harl. Chart. 83 B. 14. Little Malvern still held property here worth 20s. at the Dissolution: Mon. Angl. iv, 454, 456.

[rbe...@fernside.co.nz]

I've been asked whether I can throw any light on the question whether Richard de Muscegros husband of Alice de Dives was related to the main branch of the family.

In my opinion, it can fairly well be demonstrated that he was half-brother of Robert de Muscegros d. 1254, being eldest son of Hilary Foliot by Richard de Muscegros, snr. I haven't read the article by Houghton because I cannot download it in NZ, so am unaware of the details of his study, but I agree with Paget that Robert, Richard and Simon were brothers. The evidence has to be considered in totality as there is no single piece which will prove it.

We know Robert had a brother named Richard. In 1236 the brothers witnessed a pledge by Richard de Bauzan and Stephen his father ("Robertus de Mucegros Ricardus frater ejus")[CCR, 1234-1237,362]. In 1238 "Richard de Muscegros, brother of Robert de Mucegros," was exempted from being put on assizes, recognitions, or juries, so long as he be on the king's service [CPR, 1232-1247, 226]. Although not termed as such, we see the Muscegros brothers - Robert, Richard and Simon listed in succession, attesting Gerard de Brocton's gift to Bruton priory of his land in Bruton of the fee of Richard de Mucegros, their father. [Two Cartularies of the Augustinian Priory of Bruton and the Cluniac Priory of Montacute in the County of Somerset, 7, 23].

When Robert de Mucegros married Hawise Malet around 1220, without the king's licence, he incurred a fine of 300 marks. The following year he fell back in his payment, so members of his family pledged sums of money to the king in case of default. They were "Richard de Mucegros, father of the same Robert", "Richard de Mucegros, firstborn of the same Robert", and "Richard de Mucegros, junior", the latter being presumably Robert's brother, as Richard senior was clearly the father [CFR, 1216-1224, 209]. (This tells us that Richard son of Robert was by a previous wife and was an adult, or close to one in in 1221. He is the one who most likely married Grace de Vaux).

Probably as a young man and over the age of 14, named as Richard son of Hilary Foliot, Richard was confirmed by the king the three hides in Boddington, "Akeberg" and Deerhurst, which Reginald de Beckford had held, along with one virgate of land in "Wichfeld" and the wood in Westgrave and de la Strode, as well as immunity of the grain toll of the mill of Boddington, which his father, Richard, had settled on him him [Rot. Chart. I, 51]. Note that these small parcels did not comprise the manor of Boddington which is what his father held. Much later in 1255 Richard jnr, remised and quitclaimed the land in Boddington and elsewhere in Gloucestershire to his nephew John de Mucegros for 10 l. [Glos Feet of Fines I, p.109].

In 1230 Hilary Foliot had recently died when, on behalf of Robert de Muscegros, four knights were ordered to inquire into her dower in Boddington, Worcestershire, given to her by her husband, Richard [CRR, 1230-1232, no.611]. A jury also met to determine whether her son Richard de Muscegros had intruded into a messuage and its pertinences in "Borhurst" (Deerhurst?), Gloucs, which his mother had held in dower of the gift of her husband, Richard, whose son and heir Robert was. It was judged that Richard had no right to the property so Robert regained seisin [CRR, 1230-1232, 2224]. This is a significant record showing that Hilary Foliot was Robert's step-mother.

As son and heir of Hilary Foliot, Richard was the main beneficiary of the Foliot interest in Longdon, Worcestershire. It is clear that the main line of Robert de Mucegros is not recorded as having anything to do with the Foliot inheritance. In 1250 Richard appeared with his brother-in-law, William de Saltmarsh, in a suit against the abbot of Westminster over the advowson of Longdon, which had been held by Emma widow of Robert Foliot [CRR,1249-1250, 1582].

Hilary's sons, Richard and Simon, married the younger Dives heiresses, meaning that their interests in the Dives inheritance are masked in record behind the St Andrew family of the eldest heiress, Maud, who generally, but not always, held the chief messuages in each location. (Of interest, Saer, her husband was grandson of Saer de Quincy, earl of Winchester d.1190, second husband of Ascelina Peverel, grandmother of the three Dives sisters). They were all married before 1224 and well before the time Maud de Dives died in 1228. Of this inheritance they held an interest in Arrington, Hinxton, Kingston, Hatley (St George) and Trumpington, Cambridgeshire; East Haddon, Northamptonshire; Goteham, Nottinghamshire, and East Firle and "Tanilhurst" in Sussex. (Also possibly Sheffield near Fletching where the St Andrew family occurs. Richard also held in Hartfield, Sussex, but the provenance of this land is unclear). Richard de Muscegros and Alice were living in 1243 when they appear in the Curia Regis [CRR, 1242-1243, 779, 1668].

Their son and heir was named Robert. See below.

DL 25/1782 Henry Lovel, cook to Simon de Montfort, Earl of Leicester: Grant of the land and tenement which he had in Gotham (Gaham) by the grant of Richard de Muscegros and Robert his son, together with the advowson of the church: (Notts.)

Alice clearly predeceased Richard, as he remarried. A record associating him with a wife named Millicent and East Haddon surfaces in the Duchy of Lancaster records.

DL 25/2287
Acknowledgment by Richard de Miscegros and Millicent his wife that they hold land in East Haddon which they have by the grant of Simon de Montfort, late Earl of Leicester: Northants
Although Alice was dead, Richard de Mucegros still held East Haddon, presumably by courtesy of England but also by grant of de Montfort who was Richard's overlord at East Haddon and Goteham. Simon died at the battle of Evesham in 1263, which gives an end date for this record. However Richard's activity in his properties ends about 1262, when he is last recorded as 20 l. in debt to the king. His debt to a Jew named Saloman who had committed a felony and was an outlaw, was then granted to Imbert de Pugeys. It was by this means that the Pugeys family gained a foothold in Arrington [CCR, 1261-1264, 33]. As debt was inheritable, later that year Robert de Mucegros made a fine with Imbert Pugeys for his land in Arrington [Cambs Feet of Fines, 40], and in 1268 Robert's wife sold her dower rights in Arrington to Robert Pogeys. [Suffolk Feet of Fines, 66]. Richard's indebtedness can also be deduced a few years earlier by his charter of 1255 surrendering to Agnes de Planes all his demesne in East Haddon for 6 years [Gervers, Cart. Of the Knights of St John of Jerusalem, p.339], and his sale of Boddington etc to his nephew.

This is the point where facts begin to tie in. After Richard died, Millicent held dower in Longdon (Foliot inheritance) and remarried Ralph de Lytlington. In the 1275 Worcestershire Eyre 'Milisenta de Mousegros" was involved in a plea of debt against Millicent's stepson, Robert de Mucegros and William de Saltmarsh, co-partners of Longdon [The Worcestershire Eyre of 1275, 325]. In the same Eyre the couple presented themselves by attorney against William de Saltmarsh, kt, on a plea that he render them 40 shillings which he owed them. At that same time Millicent and her husband also presented themselves against Robert son of John de Mucegros concerning a debt of 17li. which he owed her [Ibid, 298]. The latter individual was clearly Robert de Mucegros who had recently succeeded his father, and was overlord of Boddington and lands in Gloucestershire, from which presumably Millicent was owed dower.

Ralph de Lutlington, with the consent of Millicent his wife, gave an annual rent of 3s.3d. and suit of court within the manor of Longdon to the Hospital of St Bartholomew at Gloucester [Stevenson, Cal. Of the Records of the Corporation of Gloucester, no. 470].

Richard de Muscegros appears to have enfeoffed other sons in Longdon. Nicholas de Muscegros granted 2 acres in Longdon with a tenement in Longdon to St Bartholomew's of Gloucester. The witnesses to his charter were (his uncle) William de Saltmarsh and (his step father) Ralph de Lutlington. [Stevenson, 385]. In 1275 an assize of mort d'ancestor was held to determine whether Richard de Muscegros, father of Nicholas de Muscegros was ever seised of an acre of arable land in Longdon held by Andrew Vicar of Longdon. [Worcestershire Eyre of 1275, 137].

Another possible son was John, whose son James as "James de Mucegros, son and heir of John", released rent from lands and tenements in Longdon and Morton in 1299. [Stevenson, 748].

'William son of Richard de Muscegros' and Lucy his wife appear in a final concord in 1247 with land in Hartfield and Withyham given to them in free marriage by Herbert de Borhunt and Maud his wife [Sussex Feet of Fines I ,81]. In 1251 'Robert son of Richard de Muscegros' leased out half a carucate for 50 shillings per annum for all services [Sussex Feet of Fines II, 4].

To recap, the evidence that Richard de Muscegros was half-brother of Robert (d. 1254) and husband of Alice de Dives rests on Richard's second wife Millicent holding with him in East Haddon of the Dives inheritance, AND holding dower in Longdon, of the Foliot interest. It infers that Richard was both a son of Hilary and husband of Alice de Dives. Taken with all the other circumstantial evidence this is the outline of the family.


1. Richard de Muscegros
+ (1) NN
2. Robert de Muscegros d. 1254
+ (1) NN
3. Richard de Muscegros d.s.p. ca 1245
+ ?Grace de Vaux, married thirdly Eudo de Rocheford by whom she had an heir named Ralph.
+ (2) Hawise Malet
3. John de Muscegros d.1275
+ Cecily Avenel
4. Robert de Muscegros d.1280
+ (2) Hilary Foliot
2. Richard de Muscegros dead in 1262
+ (1) Alice de Dives bef 1224
3. Robert de Muscegros d. bef 1268
+ Beatrice
4. Robert de Muscegros fl 1284/6 in Hinxton
3. Nicholas de Muscegros of Longdon
+ Florence
?3 John de Muscgros of Longdon
4. James de Muscegros
?3 William de Muscegros of Hartfield and Withyham, Sussex
+ Lucy
+ (2) Millicent, had dower in Longdon, remarried Ralph de Lutlington
2. Simon de Muscegros
+ Ascelina de Dives bef 1224
3. John de Muscegros d.s.p. 1266 IPM
3. Alice de Muscegros d.s.p. 1304
+ Ralph de Dives
3. Agatha de Muscegros
+ Walter de Radington
4. John de Radington
+(2) Hugh de Hinxton

I hope this makes sense.

Best Wishes

Rosie

[The Hoorn]

On Tuesday, January 20, 2015 at 7:45:48 PM UTC-5, rbe...@fernside.co.nz wrote:
> I've been asked whether I can throw any light on the question whether Richard de Muscegros husband of Alice de Dives was related to the main branch of the family.
>

> In my opinion, it can fairly well be demonstrated that he was half-brother of Robert de Muscegros d. 1254, being eldest son of Hilary Foliot by Richard de Muscegros, snr. I haven't read the article by Houghton because I cannot download it in NZ, so am unaware of the details of his study...

> Probably as a young man and over the age of 14, named as Richard son of Hilary Foliot, Richard was confirmed by the king the three hides in Boddington, "Akeberg" and Deerhurst, which Reginald de Beckford had held, along with one virgate of land in "Wichfeld" and the wood in Westgrave and de la Strode, as well as immunity of the grain toll of the mill of Boddington, which his father, Richard, had settled on him him [Rot. Chart. I, 51]. Note that these small parcels did not comprise the manor of Boddington which is what his father held. Much later in 1255 Richard jnr, remised and quitclaimed the land in Boddington and elsewhere in Gloucestershire to his nephew John de Mucegros for 10 l. [Glos Feet of Fines I, p.109].
>
> In 1230 Hilary Foliot had recently died when, on behalf of Robert de Muscegros, four knights were ordered to inquire into her dower in Boddington, Worcestershire, given to her by her husband, Richard [CRR, 1230-1232, no.611]. A jury also met to determine whether her son Richard de Muscegros had intruded into a messuage and its pertinences in "Borhurst" (Deerhurst?), Gloucs, which his mother had held in dower of the gift of her husband, Richard, whose son and heir Robert was. It was judged that Richard had no right to the property so Robert regained seisin [CRR, 1230-1232, 2224]. This is a significant record showing that Hilary Foliot was Robert's step-mother.
>

Houghton, on page 19 of the Family Mucegros, had this to say about John Muscegros, son of Robert Muscegros and Hawise Malet:

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.a0002762052;view=1up;seq=40

"On his father's death, John inherited in Somerset the Manors of Brewham, Charlton and Norton [Ferrers]; in Gloucestershire, half the Manor of Kemerton, one of third of Boddington... [and so on]."

Wasn't Boddington a Folet holding? If so, why would John inherit it on his father's death? I would think that would make John a descendant???

[al...@mindspring.com]

See 'Parishes: Boddington', in A History of the County of Gloucester: Volume 8, ed. C R Elrington (London, 1968), pp. 188-196 https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/glos/vol8/pp188-196 [accessed 12 January 2015].

For the Boddington descent.

Doug Smith

[rbe...@fernside.co.nz]

The Muscegros family held in Boddington from the earl 1100s and the Foliots had no interest in it as far as I can determine.
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/glos/vol8/pp188-196#h3-0002
As I mentioned, I cannot view the webpage you refer to because I live outside the US. Does Houghton give any evidence that the Foliots held there?

Best Wishes
Rosie

[al...@mindspring.com]

Hi Rosie

Houghton's article is lengthy but in general he shows the family the way you did above.

Doug Smith

[rbe...@fernside.co.nz]

Thanks Doug
That's reassuring to know.
Cheers
Rosie

[John Watson]

Dear Rosie,

Thanky you very much for posting this outline of the Muscegros family. I have also had a chance to read through the article by Houghton on the Muscegros family [1].

I think that one of the problems with this family that Houghton and others have had (including myself) is the assumption that Richard Muscegros I died about 1200. This is based on the confirmation by king John to Richard II of some of his mother's lands and it has been assumed that Richard I was dead by this date. This assumption leads to the identification of any references to Richard Muscegros after 1200 being ascribed to Richard II.

On 26 April 1200, king John confirmed to Richard Muzegros, son of Hilaria daughter of William Folet, three hides of land in Bekinton, Akeberg, and Derhurst, with a messuage and one virgate of land in Wichfield, and the woods of Westgrave and Strode in Gloucestershire, which he had of the gift of Richard de Muzegros his father [2].

I think that it safe to assume that Hilary Folet died in or before 1200, but what this charter does not say is that Richard I was dead. In fact from a much later entry in the fine rolls, we can see that he was still alive in 1221.

2 July 1221, Pledges of Robert de Muscegros for rendering 100 m. at Michaelmas in the fifth year: John Russell, 20 m. Richard de Muscegros, father of the same Robert, 20 m. Godfrey of Crowcombe, 20 m. Richard de Muscegros, the first-born of the same Robert, 20 m. Richard de Muscegros junior, 20 m. [3]

Given that Richard I was still living in 1221, I think that it is much more likely that Richard I was sheriff of Gloucester in 1207-8 and farmer of the county, and not his son Richard II. I think that it was also Richard I who gave 20 marks and a palfrey in Gloucestershire in 1205-6, for the release of his brother Ralph who had been imprisoned for a forest offence [4].

Houghton says that Richard II had two more brothers, Odo and Hubert and I think that both of these were actually brothers of Richard I.

Regards,

John

References:
1. F. T. S. Houghton, "Family of Muchgros," Birmingham Archaeological Society, Transactions and Proceedings, vol. 47 (1924)
2. Thomas Duffus Hardy, ed., Rotuli Chartarum, vol. 1 (1837), 51b.
3. Calendar of Fine Rolls 5 Henry III, No. 255.
4. Thomas Duffus Hardy, ed., Rotuli de Oblatis et Finibus in Turri Londinensi Asservati Tempore Regis Johannis (London, 1835), 294, 385, 400.

[rbe...@fernside.co.nz]

Thanks John

Thanks to a kind soul , I've now read the article and it looks like Houghton has created three Richards out of two, owing to confusion over King John's 1200 confirmation charter, as well as confusing Robert I and Robert II. Not being able to see his pedigree chart in full is also rather frustrating.

I agree with you that Odo, Herbert and Ralph were more likely brothers of Richard I , not Richard II, and concur with your other observations about Richard I's career.

The 1200 confirmation charter presents an oddity. The main question is why did the scribe refer to Richard II as son of Hilary Foliot, and not son of Richard, especially when the lands in question had nothing to do with Hilary? The record says that the king confirmed to Richard II the grant of land which Reginald de Beckford once held of Richard I, as well as other parcels which Richard I had given Richard II. Was there another Richard, son of Richard living at that time making such a qualification necessary?

The second point is that Hilary is known to have held in dower from Richard I, her husband, and so she was not dead in 1200 if her husband was still living in 1221. In fact there is no reason to believe she was dead at all in 1200. The part of the Foliot fee which descended to her heirs was predominantly the manor and advowson of Longdon, a third of which Emma de Staunton, widow of Robert Foliot, Hilary's brother, held as dower. It wasn't until Emma had died that Richard and William de Saltmarsh gained control of all of it.

I made an error calculating the relationship between Ascelina Peverel and the three Dives sisters - she was their great-grandmother, not grandmother. Also, on reflection I doubt that Alice was wife of Ralph de Dive, but that he had probably gained her share of the inheritance or custody of it by some other means.

Cheers

[al...@mindspring.com]

Notes and Queries for Somerset and Dorset, Vol. 7, p 91. Two Cartularies of the Benedictine Abbeys of Muchelney and Athelney, Somerset Record Society, Vol. 14, 1899, p 7. Collinson's History of Somerset, p 172.

N&Q says Eudo de Rochford and his wife, a daughter of Ralph de Vallibus, settled their manor on their son John who sold it in 1320. The cartularies say Grecia married first Richard de Muscegros and secondly Eudo de Rochford based on Ped. Fin., 20 Hen. III, 203 and Ped. Fin., 40 Hen. III, 120.

Doug Smith

[John Watson]

Dear all,

Rosie has shown in her excellent pedigree of the Muscegros family that Robert de Muscegros (d. 1254) married firstly, unknown, by who he had a son Richard and secondly about 1220, Hawise Malet, by who he had a son and heir John (d. 1275).

Richard, the son by the first marriage is conjectured to be the man who married Grace de Vaux. He probably died late in 1249.

I have come across a record, from 1243 which if it concerns the same Richard, gives the first name of his mother as Margery, who apparently had connections with Horsington, Somerset.

Pleas and Assizes at Yvelcestr' on the quindene of Hilary in the 27th year of the reign of King Henry son of King John, [January 1243] before Roger de Thurkileby and his companions.
533. Richard de Mucegros seeks against Nicholas Michel one virgate of land, except three acres, with the appurtenances in La Hole, [Horsington, Somerset] and against Roger le Porter and Matilda his wife two acres of meadow with the appurtenances, in the same vill, as his right, etc., and whereof one Margery his mother was seised as of fee and of right in the time of King John, taking thence profits to the value of 1/2 mark, etc. And from her, Margery, the right in the land descended to him, Richard, as son and heir ....
Charles E. H. Chadwyck Healey, ed., Somersetshire Pleas (Civil and Criminal) from the rolls of the itinerant justices (Close of the 12th century - 41 Henry III), Somerset Record Society, 11 (1897), 168.
https://archive.org/stream/publicationssome11some#page/168/mode/1up

The case was later settled by a fine.
Emanuel Green, ed., Pedes Finium commonly called Feet of Fines for the County of Somerset, Somerset Record Society, 6 (1892), 117, No. 67.
https://archive.org/stream/pedesfiniumcomm02pleagoog#page/n161/mode/1up

Regards,

John

[rbe...@fernside.co.nz]

Dear Doug

You will find from your own sources that that they say Eudo and Grace had a son named Ralph, who had a son named John. The final concord itself states that the couple settled the manor of Seaborough on Ralph. [Green, Pedes Finium, Commonly called Feet of Fines for the County of Somerset, Richard I to Edward I, p.163]. Ralph had a wife named Agnes when he settled the same manor on his own son, Ralph, in 1306 [Ibid, p. 347].

Regarding Grace's first marriage Douglas Richardson has already presented evidence for her first marriage in this thread.
http://www.archive.org/stream/closerollsofreig01grea#page/168/mode/2up

Best Wishes
Rosie

[al...@mindspring.com]

Thanks Rosie,

Agreed, was just bringing some additional sources in. N&Q note was wrong, John was grandson.

Francis Blomefield, 'Freebridge Hundred: Walpole', in An Essay Towards A Topographical History of the County of Norfolk: Volume 9 (London, 1808), pp. 99-121 http://www.british-history.ac.uk/topographical-hist-norfolk/vol9/pp99-121 [accessed 22 January 2015]also mentions Eudo de Rochford and his wife Grecia.

Doug Smith

[rbe...@fernside.co.nz]

Chris Phillips has kindly agreed to look at the Duchy of Lancaster document in The National Archives (DL 25/2287) relating to Richard de Muscegros and his wife, Millicent. The text, of what is essentially a memorandum, goes thus-

To all the Christian faithful [etc] Richard de Miscegros and Millicent, his wife, greeting in the lord. Know that we have acknowledged for ourselves and our heirs that we hold lands and tenements in Esthaddon', co. Northampton, for as long as we shall live, which we had of the gift of Simon de Monte Forti, formerly earl of Leicester, for (p[ro]) the manor of Shipfeld' acccording to the tenor of a charter of the earl which we have thereof. So that none of our heirs will be able to claim any right [etc] in the lands and tenements after our decease.
In witness of which we have put our seals to this writing.
Witnesses: Sirs Roger de Wauton', William Bagod, Nicholas de Kugenho, Robert Picot, Thomas de Ardena, knights, Henry Wale, Henry de Luton' and others.

Endorsed:
Acknowledgment of Richard Muscegros and Millicent his wife.
Honour of Leicester in the county of Northampton.

From this charter we can deduce that Richard demised tenements in East Haddon, Northants., and the manor of Sheffield, Sussex (where Sheffield Park is now) to Simon de Montfort. Richard demised them on behalf of himself and his heirs in exchange for a life interest in East Haddon, ensuring Millicent, who seems to have been a good deal younger than Richard, had guaranteed dower. Whether or not the demise was a consequence of indebtedness and/or the political situation during the Baron's War, is not entirely clear, but it had the effect of disinheriting Robert from his mother's estate in East Haddon and Sheffield, as well as giving the second wife an interest in the first wife's inheritance, which is most unusual, but it cannot have been done without Robert's assent.

Another significant piece of information to come out of this is that Richard de Muscegros II died after 1265, as his charter refers to the former Earl of Leicester.

Cheers
Rosie

[rbe...@fernside.co.nz]

It's possible that joint heirs is meant, which would be as a matter of course anyway, but that is not at all clear.
Rosie

[The Hoorn]

On Tuesday, January 13, 2015 at 9:25:55 PM UTC-5, Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Steve ~
>
> John Watson has kindly posted abstracts of three charters for the Muscegros and Folet families taken from Stevenson, Calendar of the Records of the Corporation of Gloucester (1893). In one of them, a certain Sir Richard, Prior of Little Malvern witnessed the charter of Sir Richard de Muscegros to the Hospital of St Bartholomew of Gloucester about 1220.
>
> Elsewhere I find that VCH Worcester 2 (1971): 143-147 indicates that a Reynold Folet granted the advowson and chapel of Eldersfield in Longdon, Worcestershire to Little Malvern Priory and that William Folet confirmed the grant of land in the town of 'Bichemers' to the same priory.
>
> These two grants were confirmed by Giles de Brewes, Bishop of Hereford, who held that office from 1200 to 1215.
>
> It appears that John Watson missed one important charter for the Muscegros family in Stevenson's Calendar on page 89.
>
> This is a grant dated c.1210 by Richard de Muchegros to the Hospital of St. Bartholomew of Gloucester and the Brethren of the same of three acres of meadow in Bowernia on the Severn, which three acres he holds of Walter of Le Mans. He also grants various rents in Gloucester, the money of which is to be used for a lamp in the said Hospital, shoes for 13 people, and for five beds in the Hospital. Richard de Muchegros made this grant "for his soul and the souls of Hellaria, daughter of William Folet, and of the infantes of the said Richard and Hellaria."
>
> The above charter may be viewed at the following weblink:
>
> https://books.google.com/books?id=JsRCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA89
>
> The grantor of this charter appears to have been Richard de Muscegros (husband of Hillary Folet), which individual was the grandfather of Sir Robert de Muscegros (husband of Hawise Malet). If so, this charter would necessarily date from before 1200, not c.1210 as dated by the modern editor.
>

Douglas Richardson concluded that Hilary Folet was the grandmother of Robert Muscegros who died in 1254.

The following item from VCH Gloucestershire confirms the following lineage:

Between 1125 and 1137 Frederick de Mucegros held land in Boddington, later called Boddington manor, which passed to his son Robert de Mucegros, and then to Robert's son Richard. (fn. 79) Richard's estate of 3 hides in Boddington was confirmed to his son, also Richard, in 1200. (fn. 80) In 1205 Patricia and Euphemia, daughters of Robert de Fécamp, claimed 3 hides in Boddington against Richard de Mucegros, (fn. 81) and in 1212 Euphemia Talbot (presumably the daughter of Robert de Fécamp) conceded £4 rent in Boddington to Richard. (fn. 82) Richard was dead by 1237, in which year his son Robert was granted free warren in his demesne at Boddington. (fn. 83) At his death in 1254 (fn. 84) Robert held Boddington manor of the Earl of Gloucester, the Abbot of Westminster, and the Prior of Deerhurst. His son and heir John, (fn. 85) said to hold one knight's fee in Boddington and Kemerton of the Earl of Gloucester in 1263, (fn. 86) died c. 1275 holding 7 plough-lands in Boddington. (fn. 87) John's son Robert (d. 1280) left an infant daughter Hawise as his heir. (fn. 88) Hawise married first, c. 1297, William Mortimer who died shortly after, seized of the manor of Boddington. She married secondly John de Ferrers, and thirdly Sir John de Bures (d. 1350). (fn. 89) Her heir was said to be John de Ferrers, grandson by her second husband, (fn. 90) but in 1329 Boddington manor had been settled on Katherine, daughter of Hawise and John de Bures, and her husband Giles Beauchamp, (fn. 91) who had possession of the manor in 1351. (fn. 92) John de Ferrers was unsuccessful in claiming the manor, (fn. 93) but his descendants retained a small estate in Boddington. (fn. 94)

79. Dugdale, Mon. ii. 70, 75.
80. Rot. Chart. (Rec. Com.), i. 51.
81. Cur. Reg. R. iii. 249.
82. Ibid. vi. 256. Euphemia married Gerard Talbot: Dugdale, Mon. ii. 73.
83. Glos. Deeds and Accounts, Trans. B.G.A.S. lx. 264.
84. C.P. 25(1)/74/20/418.
85. Cal. Inq. p.m. i, p. 82.
86. Close R. 1261-4, 285.
87. Cal. Inq. p.m. ii, p. 80.
88. Ibid. ii, p. 233.
89. Ibid. iii, pp. 269-70; 'The family of Muchgros', Trans. Birm. Arch. Soc. xlvii. 25-28.
90. Cal. Inq. p.m. ix, p. 402.
91. C.P. 25(1)/286/35/34.
92. Cal. Close, 1349-54, 262.
93. Trans. Birm. Arch. Soc. xlvii. 28.
94. See below.

Between 1125 and 1137 Frederick de Mucegros held land in Boddington, later called Boddington manor, which passed to his son Robert de Mucegros, and then to Robert's son Richard. (fn. 79) Richard's estate of 3 hides in Boddington was confirmed to his son, also Richard, in 1200. (fn. 80) In 1205 Patricia and Euphemia, daughters of Robert de Fécamp, claimed 3 hides in Boddington against Richard de Mucegros, (fn. 81) and in 1212 Euphemia Talbot (presumably the daughter of Robert de Fécamp) conceded £4 rent in Boddington to Richard. (fn. 82) Richard was dead by 1237, in which year his son Robert was granted free warren in his demesne at Boddington. (fn. 83) At his death in 1254 (fn. 84) Robert held Boddington manor of the Earl of Gloucester, the Abbot of Westminster, and the Prior of Deerhurst. His son and heir John, (fn. 85) said to hold one knight's fee in Boddington and Kemerton of the Earl of Gloucester in 1263, (fn. 86) died c. 1275 holding 7 plough-lands in Boddington. (fn. 87) John's son Robert (d. 1280) left an infant daughter Hawise as his heir. (fn. 88) Hawise married first, c. 1297, William Mortimer who died shortly after, seized of the manor of Boddington. She married secondly John de Ferrers, and thirdly Sir John de Bures (d. 1350). (fn. 89) Her heir was said to be John de Ferrers, grandson by her second husband, (fn. 90) but in 1329 Boddington manor had been settled on Katherine, daughter of Hawise and John de Bures, and her husband Giles Beauchamp, (fn. 91) who had possession of the manor in 1351. (fn. 92) John de Ferrers was unsuccessful in claiming the manor, (fn. 93) but his descendants retained a small estate in Boddington. (fn. 94)

79. Dugdale, Mon. ii. 70, 75.
80. Rot. Chart. (Rec. Com.), i. 51.
81. Cur. Reg. R. iii. 249.
82. Ibid. vi. 256. Euphemia married Gerard Talbot: Dugdale, Mon. ii. 73.
83. Glos. Deeds and Accounts, Trans. B.G.A.S. lx. 264.
84. C.P. 25(1)/74/20/418.
85. Cal. Inq. p.m. i, p. 82.
86. Close R. 1261-4, 285.
87. Cal. Inq. p.m. ii, p. 80.
88. Ibid. ii, p. 233.
89. Ibid. iii, pp. 269-70; 'The family of Muchgros', Trans. Birm. Arch. Soc. xlvii. 25-28.
90. Cal. Inq. p.m. ix, p. 402.
91. C.P. 25(1)/286/35/34.
92. Cal. Close, 1349-54, 262.
93. Trans. Birm. Arch. Soc. xlvii. 28.
94. See below.

Frederick de Mucegros
Robert de Mucegros
Richard de Mucegros m. Hilary Folet
Richard de Mucegros
Robert de Mucegros (died 1254) m. Hawise Malet

As an aside, on January 12, Douglas Richardson provided me with the following info:

The VCH Gloucester item had:

It states Richard de Muscegros was confirmed in his estate of 3 hides in Boddington, Gloucestershire in 1200, and cites the same record which you have mentioned, namely Hardy, Rotuli Chartarum in Turri Londinensi asservati 1(1) (1837): 51.

The record in Rotuli Chartarum is dated 26 April 1200. It refers to "Richard de Muzegros" as "son of Hilary daughter of William Folet". It mentions the three hides in Becinton, which place is evidently intended for Boddington, Gloucestershire. The record also mentions Richard's father [patris], Richard de Muzegros. So you have the names of both parents.

Other localities mentioned are Akeberg [i.e., Hatherley], Deerhurst, Strode, Westgrave, and Wichfeld (in Deerhurst). Deerhurst is in Gloucestershire.

[rbe...@fernside.co.nz]

I've demonstrated that Robert was son of the Richard whose wife was Hilary Foliot. The proof is given in the curia regis roll of 1232

CRR, 1230-1232, no.2224

Glouc'. Jurata de consensus partium venit recognitura si Ricardus de Muchegros aliud jus vel alium ingressum habuit in quoddam mesuagium cum pertineniis in Borherst quam per Illarium que fuit mater ipsius Ricardi, que mesuagium illud tenuit in dotem de dono Ricardi quondam viri sui patris Roberti de Mucegros, cujus heres ipse est, quod mesuagium idem Robertus petit versus predictum Ricardum sicut de eo unde pater suus fuit seisitus ut de feodo die quo obit etc. Juratores dicunt quod predictus Ricardus pater ipsius Roberti obit inde seisitus ut de feodo [etc] et predictus Ricardus nullum jus nec aliud ingressum habuit in mesuagium illud nisi per predictam Illariam, que non habuit illud nisi in dotem. Et ideo consideratum est quod Robertus recuperavit seisinam suam: et Ricardus in misericordia.


A jury by consent of the parties came to declare if Richard de Muchegros had entered into a messuage with pertinences in Borhurst by any other right other than by means of Hilary who was mother of Richard, which messuage she held as dower by gift of Richard her former husband, father of Robert de Mucegros whose heir he is, which messuage Robert petitions from the said Richard as that which his father was seised as of fee on the day he died etc. The jurors say that the said Richard father of Robert was seised of fee on the day he died etc and the said Richard has no right to entry except by means of Hilary which he did not have except in dower. And the judgement is that Robert recovers seisin and Richard is in mercy.

The fact that Hilary was Robert's stepmother explains why he and his descendants had nothing to do with the Foliot inheritance.

Cheers
Rosie

[The Hoorn]

And I am demonstrating that the Robert Muscegros who died in 1254 was the grandson of Hilary Folet.

[CE Wood]

Okay. So is it pistols or swords at dawn?

CE Wood

[rbe...@fernside.co.nz]

Only if The Hoorn learns to shoot straight.

[The Hoorn]

Lose the incivility.

Just trying to get to the bottom of something.

Once again, as Douglas Richardson pointed out in a previous posting, the record in Rotuli Chartarum is dated 26 April 1200. It refers to "Richard de Muzegros" as "son of Hilary daughter of William Folet". It mentions the three hides in Becinton, which place is evidently intended for Boddington, Gloucestershire. The record also mentions Richard's father [patris], Richard de Muzegros. So you have the names of both parents.

I only see two Richards mentioned here, not three. Maybe the reason the scribe referred to Richard as the son of Hilary, daughter of William Folet was because Richard's father or Hilary's husband was deceased when the charter was issued.

As for the manor of Boddington, it is fairly obvious to see that it descended to Robert Muscegros (d. 1254) from the VCH Gloucester entry.

Lastly, again as Douglas Richardson pointed out in a previous posting, this is a grant dated c.1210 by Richard de Muchegros to the Hospital of St. Bartholomew of Gloucester and the Brethren of the same of three acres of meadow in Bowernia on the Severn, which three acres he holds of Walter of Le Mans. He also grants various rents in Gloucester, the money of which is to be used for a lamp in the said Hospital, shoes for 13 people, and for five beds in the Hospital. Richard de Muchegros made this grant "for his soul and the souls of Hellaria, daughter of William Folet, and of the infantes of the said Richard and Hellaria."

Could this mean that Hilary Folet was deceased by 1210?

[rbe...@fernside.co.nz]

Dear John

This looks a significant find. James de Newmarche is recorded holding in demesne in Horsington in 1212 [Book of Fees, 79].I've seen a reference to a Hamelin de Muscegros, Sheriff of Gloucester, which opens up all sorts of possibilities (double link?), considering Mabel de Ballon was probably great grandmother of this James.
Cheers
Rosie

[The Hoorn]

O'Parishes: Boddington', in A History of the County of Gloucester: Volume 8, ed. C R Elrington (London, 1968), pp. 188-196 https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/glos/vol8/pp188-196 [accessed 19 January 2015]:

1st generation: Frederick de Mucegros (Between 1125 and 1137 Frederick de Mucegros held land in Boddington, later called Boddington manor, which passed to his son Robert de Mucegros; (fn. 79))

2nd generation: Robert de Mucegros (Between 1125 and 1137 Frederick de Mucegros held land in Boddington, later called Boddington manor, which passed to his son Robert de Mucegros; (fn. 79))

3rd generation: Richard de Mucegros (and then to Robert's son Richard. Richard's estate of 3 hides in Boddington was confirmed to his son, also Richard, in 1200) (fn. 79)

4th generation: Richard de Mucegros (Richard's estate of 3 hides in Boddington was confirmed to his son, also Richard, in 1200) (fn. 80)

5th generation: Robert de Mucegros (died 1254) (Richard was dead by 1237, in which year his son Robert was granted free warren in his demesne at Boddington. (fn. 83) At his death in 1254 (fn. 84) Robert held Boddington manor of the Earl of Gloucester, the Abbot of Westminster, and the Prior of Deerhurst. His son and heir John, (fn. 85) said to hold one knight's fee in Boddington and Kemerton of the Earl of Gloucester in 1263...

79. Dugdale, Mon. ii. 70, 75.
80. Rot. Chart. (Rec. Com.), i. 51.

[rbe...@fernside.co.nz]

On Sunday, January 25, 2015 at 12:00:33 PM UTC+13, The Hoorn wrote:
> Lose the incivility.
>
> Just trying to get to the bottom of something.

Sorry I was getting frustrated by the fact you were not discussing evidence.

>
> Once again, as Douglas Richardson pointed out in a previous posting, the record in Rotuli Chartarum is dated 26 April 1200. It refers to "Richard de Muzegros" as "son of Hilary daughter of William Folet". It mentions the three hides in Becinton, which place is evidently intended for Boddington, Gloucestershire. The record also mentions Richard's father [patris], Richard de Muzegros. So you have the names of both parents.

Agreed. But you seem to imagine that the lands mention have something to do with Hilary. They don't.

>
> I only see two Richards mentioned here, not three.

Who is the third supposed to be?

Maybe the reason the scribe referred to Richard as the son of Hilary, daughter of William Folet was because Richard's father or Hilary's husband was deceased when the charter was issued.

When a person was described to that specificity in a charter it was because there was another living person with whom they could be confused.It does not mean any of the parties are deceased.

>
> As for the manor of Boddington, it is fairly obvious to see that it descended to Robert Muscegros (d. 1254) from the VCH Gloucester entry.

Yes, Boddington had been in the Muscegros family for generations but it had nothing to do with the Foliot family

>
> Lastly, again as Douglas Richardson pointed out in a previous posting, this is a grant dated c.1210 by Richard de Muchegros to the Hospital of St. Bartholomew of Gloucester and the Brethren of the same of three acres of meadow in Bowernia on the Severn, which three acres he holds of Walter of Le Mans. He also grants various rents in Gloucester, the money of which is to be used for a lamp in the said Hospital, shoes for 13 people, and for five beds in the Hospital. Richard de Muchegros made this grant "for his soul and the souls of Hellaria, daughter of William Folet, and of the infantes of the said Richard and Hellaria."
>
> Could this mean that Hilary Folet was deceased by 1210?

No. It was common practice to make grants for the souls of living people. Note that he also made a grant for his own soul.

Hope this helps.

Cheers
Rosie

[The Hoorn]

On Saturday, January 24, 2015 at 6:23:22 PM UTC-5, rbe...@fernside.co.nz wrote:
> On Sunday, January 25, 2015 at 12:00:33 PM UTC+13, The Hoorn wrote:
> > Lose the incivility.
> >
> > Just trying to get to the bottom of something.
>
> Sorry I was getting frustrated by the fact you were not discussing evidence.
> >

Like you, I only go to the evidence and I try to discern it as best as I can. We're only human. :)

> > Once again, as Douglas Richardson pointed out in a previous posting, the record in Rotuli Chartarum is dated 26 April 1200. It refers to "Richard de Muzegros" as "son of Hilary daughter of William Folet". It mentions the three hides in Becinton, which place is evidently intended for Boddington, Gloucestershire. The record also mentions Richard's father [patris], Richard de Muzegros. So you have the names of both parents.
>
> Agreed. But you seem to imagine that the lands mention have something to do with Hilary. They don't.

Only meant that Richard was the son of Hilary. Nothing to do with Folet holdings. Sorry for the confusion.

> >
> > I only see two Richards mentioned here, not three.
>
> Who is the third supposed to be?

I thought there was a post where either you or someone else thought there was a third Richard.

>
> Maybe the reason the scribe referred to Richard as the son of Hilary, daughter of William Folet was because Richard's father or Hilary's husband was deceased when the charter was issued.
>

> When a person was described to that specificity in a charter it was because there was another living person with whom they could be confused. It does not mean any of the parties are deceased.

Fair enough. Good point.

> >
> > As for the manor of Boddington, it is fairly obvious to see that it descended to Robert Muscegros (d. 1254) from the VCH Gloucester entry.
>
> Yes, Boddington had been in the Muscegros family for generations but it had nothing to do with the Foliot family

Understood. Again, just wanted to point out that they used the 1200 Charter was one of their sources.

> >
> > Lastly, again as Douglas Richardson pointed out in a previous posting, this is a grant dated c.1210 by Richard de Muchegros to the Hospital of St. Bartholomew of Gloucester and the Brethren of the same of three acres of meadow in Bowernia on the Severn, which three acres he holds of Walter of Le Mans. He also grants various rents in Gloucester, the money of which is to be used for a lamp in the said Hospital, shoes for 13 people, and for five beds in the Hospital. Richard de Muchegros made this grant "for his soul and the souls of Hellaria, daughter of William Folet, and of the infantes of the said Richard and Hellaria."
> >
> > Could this mean that Hilary Folet was deceased by 1210?
>
> No. It was common practice to make grants for the souls of living people. Note that he also made a grant for his own soul.

Understood.

>
> Hope this helps.

It does. Again, only trying to pin this line down. lol

>
> Cheers
> Rosie

[rbe...@fernside.co.nz]

The three hides in Boddington that had once been held of Richard de Muscegros I by Reginald de Beckford, were granted (presumably on the death of Reginald without heirs) by Richard I to his younger son, Richard II, son of his second wife Hilary Foliot. This three hides and small parcels of land elsewhere do not represent the manor of Boddington, which Richard senior still held and which passed to his eldest son, Robert d.1254 and down his line according to feudal law. In 1255, as I have shown, Richard II sold this gift from his father to Richard II's nephew, John (son and heir of Robert d.1254), probably as a result of debt.

I have also shown that Hilary second wife of Richard I was stepmother of Robert d.1254, therefore there is no generation 4 as you have it.

I hope it is becoming clearer.

Cheers

Rosie

[Peter Stewart via]

On 25/01/2015 10:23 AM, rbevan via wrote:
> It was common practice to make grants for the souls of living people.
> Note that he also made a grant for his own soul. Hope this helps.

Indeed - this is a point of capital importance, that should be obvious
enough but that unfortunately escapes many historians (not to mention
some genealogists and prosopographers).

Peter Stewart

[John Watson]

Hi Rosie,

I suppose that IF she was a Newmarch, then she could have been a sister of James Newmarch who died in 1216 leaving two daughters, Isabel, wife of Ralph Russel, and Hawise, wife successively of John de Boterel and of Nicholas de Moeles.


A P Baggs and M C Siraut, 'Horsington', in A History of the County of Somerset: Volume 7, Bruton, Horethorne and Norton Ferris Hundreds, ed. C R J Currie and R W Dunning (London, 1999), pp. 119-131
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/som/vol7/pp119-131

Regards,

John