Tamar (Tea) Thephi of Judah
DCM
Thephi of Judah who married Eremon (King of Ireland) who was the seventh
son of Milesius King of Spain.
I have been trying to research her and have found many conflicting
stories (as usual) regearding her parentage.
In "The Annals of The Four Masters" for the year 1698 BC:
"M3502.2
Tea, daughter of Lughaidh, son of Ith, whom Eremhon married in Spain, to
the repudiation of Odhbha, was the Tea who requested of
Eremhon a choice hill, as her dower, in whatever place she should select
it, that she might be interred therein, and that her mound and her
gravestone might be thereon raised, and where every prince ever to be
born of her race should dwell. The guarantees who undertook to
execute this for her were Amhergin Gluingeal and Emhear Finn. The hill
she selected was Druim Caein, i.e. Teamhair. It is from her it was
called, and in it was she interred. "
I have seen others claiming her father as Zedekiah ben Josiah, King of
Judah.
Can anyone help clarify this for me ? Are there any historical accepted
documentation on her parantage and that she existed ?
A side note on Milesius of Spain who married Scota of Egypt, I have seen
a few sources who claim that he never existed nor did his sons. Does
anyone know if there are any historicaly accepted documents that prove
he did or did not exist ? Is anyone aware of any records from Egypt
which document Milesius and his marriage to Scota Nectaebus ?
Respectfully,
D. May
William Addams Reitwiesner
>Can anyone help clarify this for me ? Are there any historical accepted
>documentation on her parantage and that she existed ?
No.
William Addams Reitwiesner
wr...@erols.com
Brant Gibbard
wrote:
>Can anyone help clarify this for me ? Are there any historical accepted
>documentation on her parantage and that she existed ?
>
>A side note on Milesius of Spain who married Scota of Egypt, I have seen
>a few sources who claim that he never existed nor did his sons. Does
>anyone know if there are any historicaly accepted documents that prove
>he did or did not exist ? Is anyone aware of any records from Egypt
>which document Milesius and his marriage to Scota Nectaebus ?
>
Contrary to what Mr. Tinney would have you believe, all of these people
are entirely mythical. Others on this list know better than I do when
Irish lineages begin to have some historically verifiable basis, but I
believe it is somewhere around the 5th or 6th centuries AD. Anything
earlier than that must be taken with a huge boulder of salt.
Brant Gibbard
bgib...@inforamp.net
http://home.inforamp.net/~bgibbard/gen
Toronto, ON
norenxaq
DCM wrote:
> Many of the medieval royal lineages claim descent from Tamar (Tea)
> Thephi of Judah who married Eremon (King of Ireland) who was the seventh
> son of Milesius King of Spain.
>
> I have been trying to research her and have found many conflicting
> stories (as usual) regearding her parentage.
>
> In "The Annals of The Four Masters" for the year 1698 BC:
>
> "M3502.2
>
> Tea, daughter of Lughaidh, son of Ith, whom Eremhon married in Spain, to
> the repudiation of Odhbha, was the Tea who requested of
> Eremhon a choice hill, as her dower, in whatever place she should select
> it, that she might be interred therein, and that her mound and her
> gravestone might be thereon raised, and where every prince ever to be
> born of her race should dwell. The guarantees who undertook to
> execute this for her were Amhergin Gluingeal and Emhear Finn. The hill
> she selected was Druim Caein, i.e. Teamhair. It is from her it was
> called, and in it was she interred. "
>
> I have seen others claiming her father as Zedekiah ben Josiah, King of
> Judah.
>
> Can anyone help clarify this for me ?
This filiation was probably begun by the British Israelite movement of the
19th century. While interesting in the area of story creation, there is no
basis in history for this. I would support the Annals of the Four Masters
in this regard
>
> A side note on Milesius of Spain who married Scota of Egypt, I have seen
> a few sources who claim that he never existed nor did his sons. Does
> anyone know if there are any historicaly accepted documents that prove
> he did or did not exist ?
Milesius is legendary at best. I also believe this marriage to be a
relatively recent invention
> Is anyone aware of any records from Egypt
> which document Milesius and his marriage to Scota Nectaebus ?
no
>
>
> Respectfully,
> D. May
Chris & Tom Tinney, Sr.
[the Brehon Code, Brehon being a word
formed from the Irish "breitheamhan",
the genitive of "breitheamh", meaning
lawgiver or judge.]
http://homepage.tinet.ie/~donnaweb/info/article06.html
[Mac an Bhreitheamhan -
(Mac) Abraham, Abrehan, Judge]
http://www.fortunecity.com/bally/kilkenny/2/irenames.htm
The Brehon Code was the Code of Abram
or Abraham, the Patriarch and Judge of the
House of Israel. Abraham's son Issac gave
the birthright to Jacob, contrary to the right
of Esau, Jacob's elder twin brother, (as Esau
sold his birthright to Jacob, by which he lost
both the leadership of the tribe and covenant
blessings). "The heir could be any one of
the males comprised in the "deirbhfhine",
i.e. the descendants of a deceased chief
to the fourth generation", follows the
Biblical pattern of Deuteronomy 5:8-9
"Thou shalt not make thee any graven
image . . . nor bow down thyself unto
them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous
God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers
upon the children unto the third and fourth
generation that hate me."
A huge boulder of Jewish salt.
------------------------------------------------
Brant Gibbard wrote:
>On Thu, 08 Nov 2001 08:09:16 GMT, DCM <dcm57...@cybortronik.com>
>wrote:
>
>
>>Can anyone help clarify this for me ? Are there any historical accepted
>>documentation on her parantage and that she existed ?
>>
>>A side note on Milesius of Spain who married Scota of Egypt, I have seen
>>a few sources who claim that he never existed nor did his sons. Does
>>anyone know if there are any historicaly accepted documents that prove
>>he did or did not exist ? Is anyone aware of any records from Egypt
>>which document Milesius and his marriage to Scota Nectaebus ?
>>
>
D. Spencer Hines
More Rote Cut and Paste ---- but a continuing refusal to answer discrete
questions from Todd, Pogue Reed and others.
One can train a gibbon chained to a keyboard to do this sort of thing.
Deus Vult.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing." -- Attributed to Edmund Burke [1729-1797]
Warriors ---- "There is much tradition and mystique in the bequest of
personal weapons to a surviving comrade in arms. It has to do with a
continuation of values past individual mortality. People living in a
time made safe for them by others may find this difficult to
understand." _Hannibal_, Thomas Harris, Delacorte Press, [1999], p. 397.
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
-------------------
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"Chris & Tom Tinney, Sr." <vcti...@dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in message
news:3BEAFA20...@dcn.davis.ca.us...
Janet Ariciu
someone would like to see it
Dear friends,
The sugarbaker had nothing to do with a confectioner or a pastry cook,
he just made sugar. And a lot of money.
Regards,
Cor Snabel
The Netherlands
------------------------------------------------
Sugar-baker (suikerbakker)
The sugar refineries were an important part of the Dutch industry in the
17th and 18th century. In 1603 Amsterdam had 3 refineries, in 1630 the
number was 26 and in 1661 about 60, in 1771 the number of Amsterdam
refineries had grown to 110.
The sugar-bakery as the refinery was called, was a large house with
several floors, which were from top to bottom full of kettles, pots and
jars, with only one path, wide enough to let one man pass. It contained
raw materials, worth two tons of gold and all kinds of pottery, worth
sixty-thousand guilders. Then there were the attics for further
processing and storage, the house itself cost at least one
hundred-thousand guilders, so a sugar-baker had to be a rich man.
In the sugar-bakery the sugar beets were broken and squeezed in a press
driven by two horses. By the time Holland had its colonies in the East
and West Indies, the raw material was imported and processed in the
refineries. Here the raw sugar was melted, purified and made into
different kinds of sugar.
After the sugar was boiled in kettles and pans, it was poured into large
cone-shaped vases, which had a small hole in the bottom. This vase was
put on top of a pot, the syrup slowly poured into the pot leaving the
granulated sugar in the vase. This was called a sugar-bread.
The residue of this process was the syrup, which was, in the surrounding
countries, used as pigs-food, but in Holland it was very popular and,
being very nutritious, it was sold in large amounts to the common man.
It is obvious the Dutch market was flooded with foreign syrup, so Dutch
merchants and sugar-bakers asked the government to restrict this
importation.
These sugar-refineries used a huge amount of pottery, not only for
production purposes, the jugs and pots in which the syrup was, were sold
too. Three Amsterdam potteries specialized in only making pottery for
the sugar-industry and those were large businesses.
It's obvious that those refineries were rather dangerous as far as fire
is concerned; the sugar-baker had to provide 18 buckets near the
entrance and each year in September those buckets had to be filled with
water and and put outside for inspection. But soon the authorities
banned those refineries to the outer districts.
If you want to see a picture of a sugar-baker, go to:
http://www.geneaknowhow.net/in/beroepen/luyken/suikerbakker.html
around this sugar-baker on the floor you see some of the cone-shaped
vases.
The translation/interpretation of the poem shown on the site mentioned
above is:
Sugar-baker
In the Blood of Christ, was Divine Sweetness
Who wants to overcome the sour acid,
Must not start an etch,
But sugar is the real sword:
O God, How did you give the sour life
Your Eternal Sweetness
Ans this way overcome all failure?
Janet
Chris & Tom Tinney, Sr.
from Ireland to Israel, in a time of war, famine
and destruction. Evidence is available, as
given in QUESTION and ANSWER form:
QUESTION: From sources historical or
traditional, is there any evidence of the name
Tamar connected specifically with the Royal
House of King David? ANSWER: Yes.
[David's eldest son, Amnon, born of a
Jezrahelite mother, and prospective heir to
the throne by reason of his seniority, had
conceived a violent passion for Thamar,
Absalom's beautiful sister.]
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01058c.htm
QUESTION: Does the Royal House of
King David have any characteristics that were
central to Celtic tradition? ANSWER: Yes.
[The sacred writer who sketches for us the
career of Absalom (II Kings, xiii-xviii) lays
stress upon the faultless beauty of the youth's
appearance, and mentions in particular the
luxurious wealth of his hair, which, when
shorn, weighed over ten ounces. The
significance of this latter note becomes
apparent when we remember the important
part which the culture of the hair played in
the devotions of the Eastern people . . .]
QUESTION: From sources historical or
traditional, is there any evidence of any
daughters of Zedekiah ben Josiah, King
of Judah? ANSWER: Yes.
[They also led away all the men, women and
children and the king's daughters who
Nebuzaradan commander of the imperial
guard had left with Gedaliah son of Ahikam,
the son of Shaphan, and Jeremiah the
prophet and Baruch son of Neriah.]
http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=jeremiah+43:6
The Irish custom of overkings retaining
important personages from subject kingdoms
to ensure their submission is found in this
Jewish action by Johanan son of Kareah
and all the army officers . . .
http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=jeremiah+43:5
QUESTION: From sources historical or
traditional, is there any evidence of a
geographical connection to Egypt?
ANSWER: Yes.
[So they entered Egypt in disobedience
to the LORD and went as far as Tahpanhes.]
http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=jeremiah+43:7
QUESTION: From sources historical or
traditional, is there any evidence of a
geographical location called Tahpanhes?
ANSWER: Yes. Tahpanhes was a boundary
city on the Tanitic or Pelustan branch of the Nile.
http://www.encyclopedia.com/articlesnew/45484.html
QUESTION: From sources historical or
traditional, is there any evidence of ships
or foreign contacts at Tahpanhes, as well
as connections with the Royal House of
Egypt? ANSWER: Yes.
[Psammetichus, Prince of Saïs and Memphis,
defeats his colleagues of the Dodecarchy by
the aid of an army of Carian and Ionian
mercenaries, and founds the Twenty-sixth
Egyptian Dynasty. . . .
Psammetichus established his Greeks in two
large camps, one on each side of the Pelusiac
branch of the Nile. There, within a few miles
of the Syrian frontier, he granted them lands
and a permanent settlement. Here, too, he
built a royal stronghold, or "palace-fort," for
the occasional accommodation of himself
and his court. . . . Greek settlers came . . .
seapotters and metal-workers, shipwrights,
jewellers, and the like. And docks were
built; and the place became a port, and a
centre of Greek industry; and it was known
far and near as Daphnæ of Pelusium. This
also is the town which in the Bible is called
"Tahpanhes;" and this same palace-fort,. . .
is the royal residence which Hophra, a later
Pharaoh of the same dynasty, assigned for
a refuge to the daughters of Zedekiah,
when they fled from Jerusalem into "the
land of Egypt." . . . "Pharaoh's house at
Tahpanhes." . . .
At Daphnæ, the Ionians and Carians, and
at Naukratis the Milesians, rapidly become
famous as potters, reproducing and improving
upon the time-honored designs of Egypt.]
http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/edwards/pharaohs/pharaohs-5.html
SEE ALSO:
Thales
http://www.forthnet.gr/presocratics/thaln.htm
Anaximander (c. 610-546)
http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/a/anaximan.htm#Map%20of%20the%20world
[ The Milesians established many
colonies in the north, primarily on the
Hellespont (Dardanelles), on the
Propontis (Sea of Marmara), and on
the Euxine (Black) Sea. They also
sent merchant fleets to every part
of the Mediterranean Sea and even
into the Atlantic Ocean.]
http://encarta.msn.com/index/conciseindex/50/050F8000.htm?z=1&pg=2&br=1
QUESTION: From sources historical or
traditional, is there any evidence of
geographical or cultural ties between
Tahpanhes and Ireland ?
ANSWER: Yes.
A recent article shows evidence that
[Nile flooding -- not earthquakes --
sank two ancient cities recently discovered
just off Egypt's Mediterranean coast.]
http://www.usatoday.com/news/healthscience/science/2001-07-18-sunkencity.htm
Tahpanhes, the ancient city, in NE Egypt,
was located on Lake Manzala, and lake-forts
called crannógs are found in Ireland.
http://www.zawia.de/alexandria/suezcanal.html
Some Irish samples: Book of Leinster
http://members.aol.com/lochlan2/lebor.htm
lake there burst forth over the land.
There were seven lake bursts in
Ireland in the time of Partholon:
Seven lake-bursts, thouugh ye measure
them, with renown of name, though ye
should set them forth they filled,
amid the fetter of valleys, insular
Ireland in his time.
Loch Echtra full of swans.
Over Ireland of beauty of colour,
as I relate every foundation
on the fortress of Bith he found
not more than three lakes
before him.
There were four lake-bursts in
Ireland in the time of Nemed:
great noise of rushing, there
was an outburst - four lakes.
When Manannan was being buried,
it is then the lake burst over
the land,
Creidne the pleasant artificer
was drowned on the lake-sea,
the sinister pool, fetching
treasures of noble gold to
Ireland from Spain.
QUESTION: From sources historical
or traditional, is there any evidence
of conflict that would result in
an outmigration from Tahpanhes
to Ireland, or elsewhere, that
would have been composed in part
of military personnel?
ANSWER: Yes.
The Mercenaries who served or
worked merely for monetary gain,
"will turn and flee together".
http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=jeremiah+46:21
Respectfully yours,
Tom Tinney, Sr.
Genealogy and Family History Internet Web Directory
http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~vctinney/
<http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/%7Evctinney/>
<http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/%7Evctinney/>
"Free Coverage of the Genealogy World in a Nutshell"
Who's Who in America, Millennium Edition [54th] -
Who's Who In Genealogy and Heraldry, [both editions]
--------------------------------------------------
Chris & Tom Tinney, Sr.
of Zedekiah of Tahpanhes
(täpnhz, Tahapanes tahapnz, or
Tehaphnehes thafnihz , ancient city,
NE Egypt, on Lake Manzala.
According to Dr. Norman Golb,
the Jews historically hid their books
when enemies approached. Therefore,
the Irish filiation to the Old Testament
suggests an ancient transfer of hidden
books. Evidence is found in the record
of Jeremiah that Judah in Egypt would
become a curse and a mockery among
all the nations on earth. That would
also suggest an international network
of knowledge exchange, including goods,
services and slavery, all the way to Ireland
and the British Isles as a whole.
http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=jeremiah+44:8
The biblical tamar {taw-mawr'}is from an
unused root meaning to be erect; TWOT -
2523; n m AV - palm tree 12; 12
1) palm tree, date palm
http://www.bju.edu/bible/h/8550.html
Tamar of Tahpanhes is thus biblical:
[erect] stone over the grave of Tea of
Tahpanhes .
----------------------------------------------
norenxaq wrote:
>
>DCM wrote:
>
>>Many of the medieval royal lineages claim descent from Tamar (Tea)
>>Thephi of Judah who married Eremon (King of Ireland) who was the seventh
>>son of Milesius King of Spain.
>>
>>I have been trying to research her and have found many conflicting
>>stories (as usual) regearding her parentage.
>>
>>In "The Annals of The Four Masters" for the year 1698 BC:
>>
>>"M3502.2
>>
>>Tea, daughter of Lughaidh, son of Ith, whom Eremhon married in Spain, to
>>the repudiation of Odhbha, was the Tea who requested of
>>Eremhon a choice hill, as her dower, in whatever place she should select
>>it, that she might be interred therein, and that her mound and her
>>gravestone might be thereon raised, and where every prince ever to be
>>born of her race should dwell. The guarantees who undertook to
>>execute this for her were Amhergin Gluingeal and Emhear Finn. The hill
>>she selected was Druim Caein, i.e. Teamhair. It is from her it was
>>called, and in it was she interred. "
>>
>>I have seen others claiming her father as Zedekiah ben Josiah, King of
>>Judah.
>>
>>Can anyone help clarify this for me ?
>>
>
>This filiation was probably begun by the British Israelite movement of the
>19th century. While interesting in the area of story creation, there is no
>basis in history for this. I would support the Annals of the Four Masters
>in this regard
>
>>A side note on Milesius of Spain who married Scota of Egypt, I have seen
>>a few sources who claim that he never existed nor did his sons. Does
>>anyone know if there are any historicaly accepted documents that prove
>>he did or did not exist ?
>>
>
>Milesius is legendary at best. I also believe this marriage to be a
>relatively recent invention
>
>>Is anyone aware of any records from Egypt
>>which document Milesius and his marriage to Scota Nectaebus ?
>>
>
>no
>
>>
>>Respectfully,
>>D. May
>>
>
>
D. Spencer Hines
47 gibbons ---- one keyboard?
Deus Vult.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing." -- Attributed to Edmund Burke [1729-1797]
Warriors ---- "There is much tradition and mystique in the bequest of
personal weapons to a surviving comrade in arms. It has to do with a
continuation of values past individual mortality. People living in a
time made safe for them by others may find this difficult to
understand." _Hannibal_, Thomas Harris, Delacorte Press, [1999], p. 397.
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
-------------------
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"Chris & Tom Tinney, Sr." <vcti...@dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in message
news:3BEC5E82...@dcn.davis.ca.us...
Chris & Tom Tinney, Sr.
[Every national history, to be complete,
must, in a certain sense, be the history
of Europe; there is no knowing to how
remote a quarter it may be necessary
to trace our most domestic events;
from a country, how apparently
disconnected, may originate the impulse
which gives its direction to the whole
course of affairs.]
http://authorsdirectory.com/b/1dfre10.htm
-----------------------------------------------------
Matthew Harley
The Jews hid their books. Therefore the books were transferred to Ireland?
Jeremiah used the phrase "all the nations on earth." Therefore the Jews had an
international network that brought Jewish learning to Ireland?
Earlier we had:
The Celts had a thing about long hair. Absolom had long hair. Therefore he was
a Celt, or the Celts got their liking for long hair from Absolom?
Tahpanhes was located on a lake. Lake-forts called crannógs are found in
Ireland. Therefore Tahpanhes and Ireland were connected?.
This man is getting more balmy by the day.
Matt Harley
Phil Moody
I rather enjoy reading his conjecture and he is more open minded than most
on this list concerning what most here would view as mythical and some of
his sources are invaluable for those of us who have an interest in the
earlier time periods covered by this forum.
Matt, IIRC, you questioned the fact that the Irish had any ships, which is
a nonsensical question in itself because the Irish obviously did not arrive
in Ireland by swimming there _en masse_ and the ground certainly did not
shit them out one fine spring morning.
The fact that they use Gaelic does indicate a Gaulic/Celtic origin on the
whole and at least Tom is trying to arrive at a plausible origin for this
salient fact and I don't believe his remarks are deserving of ridicule from
the narrow minded. I see no avant garde theories coming forth from your
keyboard Matt on the subject and I infer from this absence of input; that
your knowledge of the subject is inferior to Mr. Tinney's on the subject and
therefore you are not in a position to ridicule him.
The origin and migrations of the various Celtic tribes has and may always
be a very fluid field of research due to the absence of reliable source
material; so unless you have some contemporary research with which to
counter Mr. Tinney's conjecture; then I feel you are being premature in
stating that his conjecture is nonsense.
Mr. taylor once remark that I was working in a vacuum of knowledge
concerning the Brus/Brix origin theory, which was true; so I hope you don't
take it the wrong way if I suggest that you to may be basing your comments
in a vacuum of knowledge on the subject of the Celts, without actually
reading the works Mr. Tinney cites:-)
Best Wishes,
Phil
Matthew Harley
Phil Moody wrote:
> Matt, IIRC, you questioned the fact that the Irish had any ships, which is
> a nonsensical question in itself because the Irish obviously did not arrive
> in Ireland by swimming there _en masse_ and the ground certainly did not
> shit them out one fine spring morning.
I did not question "the fact that the Irish had ships." I asked him for evidence that
an Irish king at the time of Alexander had a fleet of ships able to go to war in the
Mediterranean, as he claimed!
I know there is very little evidence about early Irish ships and provided one of the
best bits I know of: the "Monk's Boat" found in Lough Lene. It's construction showed
very strong signs of Roman or Mediterranean boat-building techniques and was dated to
between 100 BC and 100 AD. It might have been 10 meters long. No doubt Tinney will
claim this proves his point as it is yet annother connection between Ireland and the
Mediterranean. In fact, it must have been one of Ugaine Mor's ships!
>
> The fact that they use Gaelic does indicate a Gaulic/Celtic origin on the
> whole and at least Tom is trying to arrive at a plausible origin for this
> salient fact and I don't believe his remarks are deserving of ridicule from
> the narrow minded. I see no avant garde theories coming forth from your
> keyboard Matt on the subject and I infer from this absence of input; that
> your knowledge of the subject is inferior to Mr. Tinney's on the subject and
> therefore you are not in a position to ridicule him.
I personally have no interest in producing "avant garde" theories about the origins of
the Irish. I prefer to read serious scholarship such as Emania, Bulletin of the Navan
Research Group, (No 9, 10991) which focuses on "The Origins of the Irish." Plenty of
good research and, funny, not one reference to Ancient Israel in sight!
Could we see some of your "input" in favour of Tinney's views as you seem not to have
problems with his ideas and methods?
> The origin and migrations of the various Celtic tribes has and may always
> be a very fluid field of research due to the absence of reliable source
> material; so unless you have some contemporary research with which to
> counter Mr. Tinney's conjecture; then I feel you are being premature in
> stating that his conjecture is nonsense.
No contemporary research gives any support whatsoever to his views. His methodology is
the problem. He establishes a connection between A and B and, bingo, we have proof of
some highly tendentious proposition about A and B. Many have countered his
conjectures, but it makes no difference; he continues to peddle the same stuff
regardless of the number of times he is either told his logic is false or his facts
are just plain wrong or irrelevant.
> Mr. taylor once remark that I was working in a vacuum of knowledge
> concerning the Brus/Brix origin theory, which was true; so I hope you don't
> take it the wrong way if I suggest that you to may be basing your comments
> in a vacuum of knowledge on the subject of the Celts, without actually
> reading the works Mr. Tinney cites:-)
I would not claim to be an expert on Celtic matters, although I have read a bit on the
subject, including some of the works Tinney quotes. However, I do not draw the same
conclusions from these sources, and for good reason: I am not fanatically committed to
some crazy theory about a Jewish migration to Ireland and I do not take every vague
connection between Ancient Israel and Ireland as proof of that theory.
If you're interested in the serious study of Iron Age Ireland you might find the
Emania series as a whole enlightening:
http://www.wordwellbooks.com/publisher.php?Publishers=Emania
Matt Harley
Chris & Tom Tinney, Sr.
enjoyed balmy Mediterranean weather.
The late Dr. Revilo Pendleton Oliver,
Professor of Classics at the University
of Illinois for 32 years, was a scholar
of international distinction who wrote
articles in four languages for the most
prestigious academic publications in
the United States and Europe. His
first book was a copiously annotated
translation from the Sanskrit
(Mrcchakatika, the Little Clay Cart,
Urbana, 1938). He notes Strabo:
[The famous geographer, Strabo,
writing c. 35 B.C., referring to
an event of 87 B.C., and possibly
echoing Artemidorus of Ephesus,
c. 100 B.C., stated that the
*oecumene*, i.e., the world
inhabited by civilized or
semi-civilized peoples, was
"full of Jews," who had
"penetrated every city" and
become so ubiquitous that,
he said, "it is not easy to
find any place in the *oecumene*
into which their race has not
made its way or in which it
has not gained mastery
[over the natives]." (2)
He also noted that the aliens
obtained special privileges
and were allowed to function
as an *enclave* largely
independent of the local
government. This account
was proudly endorsed by the
Jews' famous apologist,
Josephus (*Ant.* XIV, vii, 2
= Chapters 112-118), writing
c. A.D. 94, who quotes Strabo
verbatim.] Jeremiah's phrase
"all the nations on earth" is
echoed in the words of Strabo.
Also, the Jews acquired protective
laws concerning their books, as
noted by [But if anyone is detected
stealing their sacred books or
their sacred monies, either from
a synagogue or from a mens'
apartment, he shall be considered
sacrilegious and his property
shall be brought into the public
treasury of the Romans.]
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/roman-jews.html
[certain passages in the Historical books
of the Old Testament (e.g., II Kings, i, 18;
III Kings, xi, 41; xiv, 19; xv, 23, etc.) suggest
that there must have been repositories where
books might be consulted. Moreover, we find
in II Mach., ii, 13, a distinct statement that
Nehemias founded a library and "gathered
together out of the countries, the books both
of the prophets, and of David, and the
epistles of the Kings, and concerning the
holy gifts." ]
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09227b.htm
The Celts had a thing about long
hair as did the culture of the Royal
House of King David.
Pharaoh's House in Tahpanhes had
a [large platform, which was evidently
a place to meet persons who would not
be admitted into the palace or fort;
to assemble guards; to hold large
levees; to receive tribute and stores;
to unlade goods; and to transact the
multifarious business which, in so
hot a climate, is done in the open air.]
Lake-forts called crannógs are also
found in Ireland.
---------------------------------------
Chris & Tom Tinney, Sr.
the Many legends about the
http://www.freshwaterexp.com/celtic.html
[Na Fianna, an army which reputedly
existed circa 3rd century A.D.
Local folklore has it that while on a
visit to France, Fionn McCúmhaill, leader
of the Fianna, eloped with both the wife
and daughter of the king. With the support
of 20 other kings, including "the king of
the world", the angry French sovereign
set sail for Ireland to gain revenge. A
great battle took place at Ventry . . .
and lasted for a year and a day, during
which Fionn McCúmhaill killed the
King of the World. No warrior on
either side was left standing.
http://www.buffalonafianna.com/fianna.htm#The%20Warband%20of%20Ireland
-------------------------------------
Phil Moody
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and refs, they are much appreciated.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion Matt, but I did not feel there was
a need to ridicule Mr. Tinney for his ideas, when it is such a conjectural
subject. My point being that there is just as much chance of him being right
as there is of him being wrong, given all the unknown variables. You have
every right to disagree with his views, but I would hope that you can keep
it on amicable terms, rather than resort to disparaging terms. If DSH's
style is any example of where this path will go, it is abundantly clear that
it tends to stifle any progress in a debate and it will only degenerate from
there into gibberish.
This is what I would like to avoid because I rather enjoy reading of things
I have not researched in depth myself; so I enjoy both yours and Mr.
Tinney's input.
Jewish migrations are not such a novel idea or the sole property of Mr.
Tinney's mind; so I see nothing wrong in his exploration of the veracity of
these tales, or your disbelief in them:-)
Best Wishes,
Phil
-----Original Message-----
From: use...@rootsweb.com [mailto:use...@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of
Matthew Harley
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2001 1:32 PM
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Tamar (Tea) Thephi of Judah
Matthew Harley
Phil Moody wrote:
> Hi Matt:
>
> Thanks for sharing your thoughts and refs, they are much appreciated.
> Everyone is entitled to their own opinion Matt, but I did not feel there was
> a need to ridicule Mr. Tinney for his ideas, when it is such a conjectural
> subject. My point being that there is just as much chance of him being right
> as there is of him being wrong, given all the unknown variables.
IMHO that is not so. The probability that he is right is extremely remote.
> You have
> every right to disagree with his views, but I would hope that you can keep
> it on amicable terms, rather than resort to disparaging terms. If DSH's
> style is any example of where this path will go, it is abundantly clear that
> it tends to stifle any progress in a debate and it will only degenerate from
> there into gibberish.
It is gibberish that I am objecting to.
> This is what I would like to avoid because I rather enjoy reading of things
> I have not researched in depth myself; so I enjoy both yours and Mr.
> Tinney's input.
Make up your mind ;-)
>
> Jewish migrations are not such a novel idea or the sole property of Mr.
> Tinney's mind; so I see nothing wrong in his exploration of the veracity of
> these tales, or your disbelief in them:-)
He does not explore the veracity of these tales. He believes them totally and will
accept no contrary evidence or argument.
Matt Harley
Matthew Harley
"Chris & Tom Tinney, Sr." wrote:
> Matthew, compare Ugaine Mor with
> the Many legends about the
> http://www.freshwaterexp.com/celtic.html
> [Na Fianna, an army which reputedly
> existed circa 3rd century A.D.
> Local folklore has it that while on a
> visit to France, Fionn McCúmhaill, leader
> of the Fianna, eloped with both the wife
> and daughter of the king. With the support
> of 20 other kings, including "the king of
> the world", the angry French sovereign
> set sail for Ireland to gain revenge. A
> great battle took place at Ventry . . .
> and lasted for a year and a day, during
> which Fionn McCúmhaill killed the
> King of the World. No warrior on
> either side was left standing.
> http://www.buffalonafianna.com/fianna.htm#The%20Warband%20of%20Ireland
This pseudo-history is evidence that the Irish had fleets of ships able to go to war in
the Mediterranean at the time of Alexander?
Even if every word of it were true it proves that the "French" had a fleet; it says
nothing about an Irish fleet!
But of course if "no warrior on either side was left standing" it may suggest how the
Irish acquired a fleet of abandoned French ships! Alas, that was a few hundred years too
late for Ugaine Mor.
BTW France didn't exist in 3rd century AD.
Matt Harley
Matthew Harley
"Chris & Tom Tinney, Sr." wrote:
> Strabo, circa 64/3 B.C. to 21 A. D.,
> enjoyed balmy Mediterranean weather.
http://www.bartleby.com/68/3/703.html
> The Celts had a thing about long
> hair as did the culture of the Royal
> House of King David.
The Celts also wore their enemies' heads on their belts. The long hair made it
easier to tie them on.
Do you suppose cousin David (the king, not DSH) hung the head of Urias from his
belt?
Not very kosher I'd say.
>
> Lake-forts called crannógs are also
> found in Ireland.
I believe Mexico city started on a lake. Is that not significant?
Matt Harley
D. Spencer Hines
Spanish ---- by certain secret druidic techniques known only by one seer
in Dublin.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing." -- Attributed to Edmund Burke [1729-1797]
Warriors ---- "There is much tradition and mystique in the bequest of
personal weapons to a surviving comrade in arms. It has to do with a
continuation of values past individual mortality. People living in a
time made safe for them by others may find this difficult to
understand." _Hannibal_, Thomas Harris, Delacorte Press, [1999], p. 397.
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
-------------------
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"Matthew Harley" <har...@eircom.net> wrote in message
news:3BEE6895...@eircom.net...
Francisco Antonio Doria
<D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu> escreveu: >
Proving, of course, that the Irish language was
> derived from
> Spanish ---- by certain secret druidic techniques
> known only by one seer
> in Dublin.
I thought it was Celtic. The Kelto-Italic subgroup is
a macro subset in the Indo-European realm, but as far
as i can tell linguistic relations are very far
between Irish and Spanish/portuguese.
chico
_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! GeoCities
Tenha seu lugar na Web. Construa hoje mesmo sua home page no Yahoo! GeoCities. É fácil e grátis!
http://br.geocities.yahoo.com/
Carpenter, Charles
>From: Phil Moody [mailto:moody...@prodigy.net]
>Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2001 2:39 AM
>To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
>Subject: RE: Tamar (Tea) Thephi of Judah
>Hi Matt:
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and refs, they are much
appreciated.
>Everyone is entitled to their own opinion Matt, but I did not feel there
was
>a need to ridicule Mr. Tinney for his ideas, when it is such a conjectural
>subject. My point being that there is just as much chance of him being
right
>as there is of him being wrong, given all the unknown variables.
Phil: I'll say it again -- suppose it's 1960 and one guy says the moon is
made of green cheese, the other says rocks and dust. Sure the former has a
right to his opinion, but really now, there's no reason on earth to say that
there's as much chance of one thing being right as the other.
I've followed this debate, and in my opinion the unaddressed internal
contradictions in Mr. Tinney's position are so glaring that we're
practically in green cheese territory. Is there maybe some room for using
these texts to talk about folk memories and careful study of the origin of
the Celts? Sure. But that's not Mr. Tinney point at all. He's not visibly
engaging in any kind of critical analysis -- he's just advancing medieval
renditions of internally inconsistent folk legends as probable facts. The
clue to me that we're in green cheese country is Mr. Tinney's refusal to
pick and choose, in plain English, between the contradictions and
anachronisms, and provide a reasoned basis for doing so.
Actually, where I really think we are in 2001, and one guy is arguing that
the moon is made of green cheese, based on some ancient text. And that,
friends, is "Hilarious."
*****************************************************
This electronic mail transmission contains confidential
information intended only for the person(s) named.
Any use, distribution, copying or disclosure
by another person is strictly prohibited.
*****************************************************
Chris & Tom Tinney, Sr.
At the end of this year Ugaine Mor,
after he had been full forty years
king of Ireland, and of the whole
of the west of Europe, as far as
Muir Toirrian, was slain by
Badhbhchadh, at Tealach An Chosgair,
in Magh Muireadha, in Bregia.
Compare with: on a visit to France,
Fionn McCúmhaill, leader of the Fianna,
eloped with both the wife and daughter
of the king. With the support of 20
other kings, including "the king of
the world", the angry French sovereign
set sail for Ireland to gain revenge. A
great battle took place at Ventry . . .
and lasted for a year and a day, during
which Fionn McCúmhaill killed the
King of the World. No warrior on
either side was left standing.
Compare king of Ireland, and of
the whole of the west of Europe
with "the king of the world".
The independent 3rd century A.D.
legend has its origins in the
Annals of the Four Masters, re:
Ugaine Mor, historically accurate
for the period of the Punic Wars.
------------------------------------
D. Spencer Hines
validity.
But if you listen closely to spoken Irish [with the proper training, of
course], you will be able to hear the Spanish underlying it.
In fact it is Spanish with a *Mexican accent* ---- not surprising.
In ancient times, some think that there was an underground tunnel on
Xochimilco near "Mexico City" [it wasn't called that then] that led all
the way to Ireland. So, the influence is easy to understand. Religion
also flowed through the tunnel ---- but in reverse, so the Mexicans
became Roman Catholics ---- some of them ---- but most of the Catholics
were brutally sacrificed by the Aztecs and did not survive ---- just
remnants, who lived to tell the tale.
You see how it all fits together!
http://www.iol.ie/~pcassidy/ARC/resistng.html
"At the age of 24, Karen Armstrong left the teaching order where she had
been a nun for seven years. She then suffered a nervous breakdown
because of the ensuing guilt and sense of failure. As a way of coming
to terms with this major transition in her life, she wrote about the
experience in 'Through the Gate' and 'Beginning the World'.
She is now 49, with several more books under her belt, including the
controversial 'The Gospel According to Women', published in 1986. Now
people tend to ask her why she ever went into a convent in the first
place rather than why she left.
Though tiny in stature, she has a big voice and has been a broadcaster
for many years, explaining "I'm a natural talker". Of Irish descent,
she hails from Birmingham where, as a girl, she attended the local
Catholic convent school.
Her latest project is a documentary entitled 'The Pope's Divisions', to
be screened on Wednesday at 9PM, as part of 'Witness', Channel 4's
ongoing series about personal belief. In it she travels to Rome,
Ireland and Africa to argue that Pope John Paul II is a religious
fundamentalist, determined to create a conservative brand of
Catholicism, based on an all-powerful Papacy. The Pope is shown to
belong to a 100-year old tradition of "Super Popes", dating from the
declaration of Papal Infallibility in 1870.
Her documentary explores Pope John Paul II's apparent suppression of
those inside the Church who oppose his form of Catholicism and the
resistance this has provoked in many countries. Armstrong shows how a
more liberal and less Pope-and-Rome-centred Church, which was envisaged
at Vatican II in 1962, has been steadily eroded by this Pope.
His determination to keep all real power in the hands of a priestly cast
of male celibates, obedient to the Papacy, says Armstrong, is at the
heart of his fundamentalist Catholicism. But, as her documentary shows,
despite glitzy TV commercials to tempt new recruits, the Catholic Church
is running out of the kind of priests the Pope wants."
http://www.corona.bell.k12.ca.us/student/adrian/5.html
"Similarities with the Spanish and Aztec religions
The Aztec religion, polytheistic and based on nature incorporated the
main god of tribes they conquered. This, however, gave them such a large
amount of gods that it became impossible to worship them all. Which led
to the formation of separate cults which worshiped one god supreme and
others as minor gods. This can be compared loosely to the many separate
branches of Christianity such as Protestant, Catholic, Lutheran, or in
particular, to Catholicism and the Saints.
Aztec legend of the creation of mankind and the origins of the Aztec
tribe tie directly into reasons for human sacrifice. The main points in
these legends is that the gods sacrificed for humans, thus, humans must
sacrifice for the gods. Furthermore, the gods depended on humans for
the precious liquid chalchihuatl, -- human blood to sustain themselves.
In Catholicism Christ was crucified to pay for human sins, in turn,
Catholics sacrifice during lent, but also throughout the year. There is
a close parallel between the Aztec gods need for blood and Catholic
communion: the Catholic priest who is the representative of god is
always the first one to drink the communion wine, the symbol of blood."
http://www.corona.bell.k12.ca.us/student/adrian/5.html
------------------------
You see how it all fits together!
Quod Erat Dumbonstrandum.
[N.B. I'm teaching my parakeet to do this sort of thing ---- and he
should be ready to go in about a month.
Deus Vult.
Dies Irae.
Vaya Con Dios.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing." -- Attributed to Edmund Burke [1729-1797]
Warriors ---- "There is much tradition and mystique in the bequest of
personal weapons to a surviving comrade in arms. It has to do with a
continuation of values past individual mortality. People living in a
time made safe for them by others may find this difficult to
understand." _Hannibal_, Thomas Harris, Delacorte Press, [1999], p. 397.
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
-------------------
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"Francisco Antonio Doria" <dori...@yahoo.com.br> wrote in message
news:2001111113083...@web20110.mail.yahoo.com...
Chris & Tom Tinney, Sr.
all the "green cheese" on this list.
Minus the gibbons, the computer's
boolean logic finds an a + in Druidic
references from the wit Pliny.
The Druids of the Gallic Provinces
and the region of Britannia are
evaluated by Pliny, in his work:
[Historia Naturalis].
Pliny, [A.D. 23-79] indicates this
void in the recesses of Nature
[British Isles], cultivate magic art,
with ceremonials so august, that
she might almost seem to have been
the first to communicate them to
the people of Persia.
Aphrodite was worshipped in Egypt and Persia;
known as Ourania 54 'queen of heaven" or
Heavenly One". Jeremiah 44:17 says that
the people of Judah in Egypt "have vowed--
to make offerings to the Queen of Heaven
and to pour libations to her, as we used to
do, we and our fathers, our kings and our
officials, in the towns of Judah and the
streets of Jerusalem. " The uprooted
Jews appear to have taken their apostate
traditions with them to the British Isle
Druids, according to Pliny's observations.
http://phoenicia.org/greek.html
Respectfully yours,
Tom Tinney, Sr.
Genealogy and Family History Internet Web Directory
http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~vctinney/
<http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/%7Evctinney/>
"Free Coverage of the Genealogy World in a Nutshell"
Who's Who in America, Millennium Edition [54th] -
Who's Who In Genealogy and Heraldry, [both editions]
--------------------------------------
D. Spencer Hines wrote:
>Proving, of course, that the Irish language was derived from
>Spanish ---- by certain secret druidic techniques known only by one seer
>in Dublin.
>
>"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
>nothing." -- Attributed to Edmund Burke [1729-1797]
>
>Warriors ---- "There is much tradition and mystique in the bequest of
>personal weapons to a surviving comrade in arms. It has to do with a
>continuation of values past individual mortality. People living in a
>time made safe for them by others may find this difficult to
>understand." _Hannibal_, Thomas Harris, Delacorte Press, [1999], p. 397.
>
>All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
>
>All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
>author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
>attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
>given, in writing.
>-------------------
>
>D. Spencer Hines
>
>Lux et Veritas et Libertas
>
>Vires et Honor
>
>"Matthew Harley" <har...@eircom.net> wrote in message
>news:3BEE6895...@eircom.net...
>|
>|
>| "Chris & Tom Tinney, Sr." wrote:
>|
D. Spencer Hines
http://www.iol.ie/~pcassidy/ARC/resistng.html
http://www.corona.bell.k12.ca.us/student/adrian/5.html
http://www.corona.bell.k12.ca.us/student/adrian/5.html
------------------------
Quod Erat Dumbonstrandum.
should be ready to go in about a month. ---- DSH]
Deus Vult.
Dies Irae.
Vaya Con Dios.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing." -- Attributed to Edmund Burke [1729-1797]
Warriors ---- "There is much tradition and mystique in the bequest of
personal weapons to a surviving comrade in arms. It has to do with a
continuation of values past individual mortality. People living in a
time made safe for them by others may find this difficult to
understand." _Hannibal_, Thomas Harris, Delacorte Press, [1999], p. 397.
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
-------------------
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"Francisco Antonio Doria" <dori...@yahoo.com.br> wrote in message
news:2001111113083...@web20110.mail.yahoo.com...
| --- "D. Spencer Hines"
| <D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu> escreveu: >
| > Proving, of course, that the Irish language was
| > derived from Spanish ---- by certain secret
| > druidic techniques known only by one seer
| > in Dublin.
|
Matthew Harley
> Someone by the name of Matt Harley posted:
>
> At the end of this year Ugaine Mor,
> after he had been full forty years
> king of Ireland, and of the whole
> of the west of Europe, as far as
> Muir Toirrian, was slain by
> Badhbhchadh, at Tealach An Chosgair,
> in Magh Muireadha, in Bregia.
>
> Compare with: on a visit to France,
> Fionn McCúmhaill, leader of the Fianna,
> eloped with both the wife and daughter
> of the king. With the support of 20
> other kings, including "the king of
> the world", the angry French sovereign
> set sail for Ireland to gain revenge. A
> great battle took place at Ventry . . .
> and lasted for a year and a day, during
> which Fionn McCúmhaill killed the
> King of the World. No warrior on
> either side was left standing.
>
> Compare king of Ireland, and of
> the whole of the west of Europe
> with "the king of the world".
Heavens above! I've given Tinney another connection.
And this after Irish boats made in Rome and Mexican Crannogs.
I'll have to stop this.
>
> The independent 3rd century A.D.
> legend has its I'll have to stop this.origins in the
> Annals of the Four Masters,
A third century A.D. legend had it's **origin** in the Annals of the Four Masters, composed
in the 1630s A.D.?
Did Fionn MacCumhail also invent the time machine?
> re:
> Ugaine Mor, historically accurate
> for the period of the Punic Wars.
English translation please.
Matt Harley
Matt Harley
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> I belong to another site Dutch families and this was post there and thought
> someone would like to see it
> Dear friends,
>
> The sugarbaker had nothing to do with a confectioner or a pastry cook,
> he just made sugar. And a lot of money.
Well, I have a Jurg Bek in colonial Pennsylvania who in one
record is called a sugarbaker, and in another a confectioner, so
they were at least not mutually exclusive.
taf
Todd A. Farmerie
Boy, that's a distinctive characteristic - other cultures like
blemished children. Likewise the Irish built forts on lake, and
an egyptian city was on a lake. This must be more than
coincidence. An Israelite king had daughters. Now that's a
strong argument, imagine that, a king with daughters.
QUESTION: What is the earliest document which claims the
relationship you are arguing for?
taf
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> of Zedekiah of Tahpanhes
> (täpnhz, Tahapanes tahapnz, or
> Tehaphnehes thafnihz , ancient city,
> NE Egypt, on Lake Manzala.
> According to Dr. Norman Golb,
> the Jews historically hid their books
> when enemies approached. Therefore,
> the Irish filiation to the Old Testament
> suggests an ancient transfer of hidden
> books. Evidence is found in the record
> of Jeremiah that Judah in Egypt would
> become a curse and a mockery among
> all the nations on earth. That would
> also suggest an international network
> of knowledge exchange, including goods,
> services and slavery, all the way to Ireland
> and the British Isles as a whole.
Ah yes, the complete and total absence of evidence for her
existence PROVES that she must have been Jewish, since they hide
their books.
(Nothing peculiar about the Jews - we have also heard the similar
"the absence of any evidence proves that she must have been
muslim, since all records of muslims were purged from the
sources".)
The absence of evidence, by its very nature, proves NOTHING
whatsoever.
taf
taf
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> My point being that there is just as much chance of him being right
> as there is of him being wrong, given all the unknown variables.
This is not true. When there really is NO evidence, then ANY
reconstruction is more likely to be wrong than right, by any
number of standards. Likewise, when there is no evidence, all
theories are NOT created equal, or if I said Ugaine Mor was
planted in Ireland by aliens, that too would be as likely to be
right as wrong, which it most certainly isn't. Considering that
the first attestation of the individuals he is supporting was in
the 17th century (AD), (or later - he certainly has not cited
anything earlier, in spite of repeated requests), then the
chances are MUCH greater that these people never existed at all.
taf
Chris & Tom Tinney, Sr.
from [all the ancient vellum books of annals . . .]
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06163b.htm
You apprentice in the role of Medieval
Court Jester, so profoundly played by DSH.
http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/640914.html
Ye know the Kinges grace hath one
old fole: Sexten as good as myght be
whiche because of aige is not like to
cotinew. I haue spied one yong fole
at Croland whiche in myne opinion
shalbe muche mor pleasaunt than
euer Sexten was . . . and he is not
past xv yere old.
Respectfully yours,
Tom Tinney, Sr.
Genealogy and Family History Internet Web Directory
http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~vctinney/
<http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/%7Evctinney/>
"Free Coverage of the Genealogy World in a Nutshell"
Who's Who in America, Millennium Edition [54th] -
Who's Who In Genealogy and Heraldry, [both editions]
-----------------------------------------------------------
Matthew Harley
"Chris & Tom Tinney, Sr." wrote:
>You apprentice in the role of Medieval Court Jester,
I think it's quite clear who the fool is around here.
Instead of quoting more random "connections", try answering some of the questions you have been
asked.
Remember, no quoting allowed; your words only.
Try this one asked of you by Todd Farmerie on 31 October last:
"Please provide for me the earliest reference you know of that
names Tamar Tephi. To answer this request requires _no_ URLs,
_no_ paragraphs of discussion, _nothing_, in fact, but a citation
with the date. This should _name_ Tamar Tephi, not tell a
similar story about someone with a different name, not speculate
about various patterns of cultural contact, not discuss
generalities of Irish history - it must _specifically name_ Tamar
Tephi. Don't forget the date of the publication/manuscript."
Matt Harley
Phil Moody
This is not true. When there really is NO evidence, then ANY
reconstruction is more likely to be wrong than right, by any
number of standards. Likewise, when there is no evidence, all
theories are NOT created equal, or if I said Ugaine Mor was
planted in Ireland by aliens, that too would be as likely to be
right as wrong, which it most certainly isn't.
PLM: I have not seen any absurd Alien theories postulated in this thread,
until now, Todd. I understand what you say, but I have not seen anything
from Mr. Tinney that is not plausible; so your "irrational theory" does not
apply here. However, I agree that all theories are not equal, but then
again, I was not considering irrational thought when I said that they
were:-)
What I was trying to say was that one should remain unbiased and give each
side of the debate an equal measure of respect and not pass judgment
prematurely and thereby making each argument "equal", until the counter
balance favors one side or the other. Perhaps I am asking to much of most,
but this is the way I see it and no amount of rhetoric or rancor will change
my opinion, this late in the game:-)
Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
Considering that the first attestation of the individuals he is supporting
was in the 17th century (AD), (or later - he certainly has not cited
anything earlier, in spite of repeated requests), then the chances are MUCH
greater that these people never existed at all.
PLM: Ugaine Mor is not my prime interest in this thread, but the general
idea that there is a Celtic/Jewish origin for Ireland:-) Given the dubious
nature of names in general, I do not put much weight behind them; he may
have been called "You Gain More-land, if you steal the kings wife and
daughter", for all I care:-)
All I know of the origin of Ireland, I have from Morgan Llywelyn's novels;
so I find this all fascinating. I know there is later tradition that St.
James, et al went to England and other theories of a Jewish connection to
the Merovingian dynasty, but this is the first hint I have had that there is
such an early association with Ireland.
As an aside, it is a known fact that the Jews hid their texts and trasures
and it is a natural custom that evolved from being constantly at war and
subjugated by other nations, and this is obvious to me at least. The "Dead
Sea Scrolls" are a prime example of Jewish texts that were "hidden" and it
would be absurd to think that this was an isolated phenomenon. Furthermore,
the Crusades were not begun for religeous principle, but for greed, because
it was known "fact" that the relics and treasure of the Jews was still
"HIDDEN" in or near Jerusalem. If anyone begs to differ on this point, they
clearly need to do some more study. The fact that the "Arch of the Covenant"
has never been recovered is another prime example of how the Jews "Hid"
their sacred possessions and it may be of interest to some to know that it
still exists and remains guarded, per a fairly recent article in the
"Augustan".
Concerning long hair, this was a Nazarite tradition and not a custom of all
Jews. Numbers 6:5 "During the entire period of his vow of seperation no
razor may be used on his head. he must be holy until the period of his
seperation to the Lord is over; he must let his hair grow long." It has been
argued that Jesus was a "Nazarite" and not "of Nazareth" and this remains a
distinct possibility.
Best Wishes,
Phil
-----Original Message-----
From: use...@rootsweb.com [mailto:use...@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Todd
A. Farmerie
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 12:27 AM
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Tamar (Tea) Thephi of Judah
Chris & Tom Tinney, Sr.
from the ancient Ireland - Old Testament
history is found in the "Lachish letters".
http://www.stolaf.edu/people/kchanson/lachish3.html
Among the finds at Tell ed-Duweir, identified
as the city of Lakish, were letters written to
and from military commanders in the area,
during the reign of Zedekiah, the last king
of Judah, ca. 590 B.C.
http://www.bible.gen.nz/amos/glossary/Lakish.htm
An ostracon reports of a military governor at
Lakish in the time of Jeremiah: the prophet
connected with the Irish tradition of Tamar Tephi.
http://www.bible.gen.nz/amos/glossary/ostraca.htm
Tara was once the palace of the high kings of Ireland.
It has raths, or ramparts built of clay. Compare: Gates
http://www.bible.gen.nz/amos/archaeology/gate.htm#gates
--------------------------------------------
Roz Griston
not everything the tinney's post, i agree with, but being a URL addict
i especially enjoy the links they post and one link leads to another.
because of the tinney's i found.
http://www.fortunecity.com/bally/kilkenny/2/iremaps.htm
it's a great resource
if any of your persons of interested are connected to ireland for one
reason or another.
i've found other urls because of leads provided by the tinneys. they
are a great resource..and if you don't like their posts..then delete
them, killfile them or whatever..
at least the tinneys are not vulgar and indiscriminatly insulting and
that's always a plus.
although, i do wish chris and/or tom would answer some of the direct
queries for information..cuz i'd like to know too..i'm naturally
curious..:-))
cya
roz
-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Moody [SMTP:moody...@prodigy.net]
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2001 8:10 AM
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: Tamar (Tea) Thephi of Judah
Matthew Harley wrote:
I rather enjoy reading his conjecture and he is more open minded than
most
on this list concerning what most here would view as mythical and some
of
his sources are invaluable for those of us who have an interest in the
earlier time periods covered by this forum.
Matt, IIRC, you questioned the fact that the Irish had any ships,
which is
a nonsensical question in itself because the Irish obviously did not
arrive
in Ireland by swimming there _en masse_ and the ground certainly did
not
shit them out one fine spring morning.
The fact that they use Gaelic does indicate a Gaulic/Celtic origin on
the
whole and at least Tom is trying to arrive at a plausible origin for
this
salient fact and I don't believe his remarks are deserving of ridicule
from
the narrow minded. I see no avant garde theories coming forth from your
keyboard Matt on the subject and I infer from this absence of input;
that
your knowledge of the subject is inferior to Mr. Tinney's on the sub
ject and
therefore you are not in a position to ridicule him.
The origin and migrations of the various Celtic tribes has and may
always
be a very fluid field of research due to the absence of reliable source
material; so unless you have some contemporary research with which to
counter Mr. Tinney's conjecture; then I feel you are being premature in
stating that his conjecture is nonsense.
Mr. taylor once remark that I was working in a vacuum of knowledge
concerning the Brus/Brix origin theory, which was true; so I hope you
don't
take it the wrong way if I suggest that you to may be basing your
comments
in a vacuum of knowledge on the subject of the Celts, without actually
reading the works Mr. Tinney cites:-)
Best Wishes,
Phil
-----Original Message-----
From: use...@rootsweb.com [mailto:use...@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of
Matthew Harley
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2001 5:48 AM
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Tamar (Tea) Thephi of Judah
"Chris & Tom Tinney, Sr." writes some incredible nonsense:
The Jews hid their books. Therefore the books were transferred to
Ireland?
Jeremiah used the phrase "all the nations on earth." Therefore the
Jews had
an
international network that brought Jewish learning to Ireland?
Earlier we had:
The Celts had a thing about long hair. Absolom had long hair.
Therefore he
was
a Celt, or the Celts got their liking for long hair from Absolom?
Tahpanhes was located on a lake. Lake-forts called crannogs are found
Doug McDonald
>
> > All I know of the origin of Ireland,
This is off-topic. I suggest sci.geology. :-) :-)
Doug McDonald
Phil Moody
I really wish people would _try to learn something about history_
before making speculations on medieval genealogy. Any respectable
library should have something on Irish history.
PLM: I made no speculations about the origin of Ireland and the Tinney and
Harley e-mails are providing numerous references for me to research later.
Cheers,
Phil
-----Original Message-----
From: use...@rootsweb.com [mailto:use...@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Jon
Meltzer
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 2:47 PM
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Tamar (Tea) Thephi of Judah
On 12 Nov 2001 13:28:13 -0700, moody...@prodigy.net (Phil Moody)
wrote:
> All I know of the origin of Ireland, I have from Morgan Llywelyn's novels;
I really wish people would _try to learn something about history_
before making speculations on medieval genealogy. Any respectable
library should have something on Irish history.
Please, do your homework.
K. Williams
You say a lot of things in your post which I would be interested in
seeing backed up with evidence. For example:
"it is a known fact that the Jews hid their texts and trasures (sic)
and it is a natural custom that evolved from being constantly at war and
subjugated by other nations, and this is obvious to me at least. The
"Dead
Sea Scrolls" are a prime example of Jewish texts that were "hidden" and
it
would be absurd to think that this was an isolated phenomenon."
In what way is it a "known" fact? Why exactly would it be "absurd?"
What evidence do you have to suggest the contrary?
"Furthermore,
the Crusades were not begun for religeous principle, but for greed,
because
it was known "fact" that the relics and treasure of the Jews was still
"HIDDEN" in or near Jerusalem."
Again, what is your source?
"it may be of interest to some to know that it [the arc of the covenant]
still exists and remains guarded, per a fairly recent article in the
"Augustan"."
Which issue? What were their sources for this statement?
"I know there is later tradition that St.
James, et al went to England and other theories of a Jewish connection
to
the Merovingian dynasty . . ."
As far as I know this later "tradition" is from "Holy Blood, Holy
Grail" and is utterly bogus.
In sum, I support Todd entirely regarding the Irish controversy. It is
ridiculous to claim that a 17th century source has any authority
regarding events purported to take place thousands of years before.
Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams
P.S. It seems to me that this entire thread is appraoching the same
level of relaity as "Foucault's Pendulum."
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> P.S. It seems to me that this entire thread is appraoching the same
> level of relaity as "Foucault's Pendulum."
Now, now. He hasn't mentioned the Templars.
Yet.
taf
John Hartwell
Phil Moody wrote:
<the Tinney and Harley e-mails are providing numerous references for me
to research later.>>
With all respect I must urge that the great majority of these references
are not worthwhile. It is true that Messrs Tinney have been consistently
polite and respectful (both admirable qualities), and some of us have at
times behaved less than gentlemanly towards them. However, their methods
are so flawed, their argument so spurious, that the ideas they espouse
deserve no respect whatsoever. They are, in fact, dangerous when they
mislead sincere seekers for knowledge like yourself into thinking them
worthy of consideration. It is characteristic of the crank to be
sincere, dedicated, monomaniacally committed to their beliefs, and as a
result of their fervor, frequently very persuasive to the unwary.
If there are any parallels between the Annals' accounts of early Irish
history and those contained in the Bible, it is entirely because the
Clerics who were Ireland's earliest annalists were familiar with the
Bible, and anxious to forge links between it and their native land.
They created those links because they felt they were needed. Concepts of
historical fact and the purposes of history have varied widely over
time. Only very recently have ideas such as objectivity and abstract
reality (as an ideal, still rarely achieved) come into prominence.
Please, consult some reliable, standard 20th century studies of early
irish history before wasting your time on this nonsense. Someone with a
degree of knowledge and understanding of the subject is torn between
laughter, tears, and anger at the utter imbecility of these threads.
Really, they belong on a speculative fantasy discussion group.
Regards,
Jno
Matthew Harley
> Tara was once the palace of the high kings of Ireland.
It was never a palace of the high kings of Ireland.
If you disagree, please say why.
Your words. NO QUOTES!!
Matt Harley
Chris & Tom Tinney, Sr.
anyone would find in Vergina, in northern
Greece, the site of the Macedonian Royal
Tombs. This site included the golden casket
that held the cremated remains of Philip II.
The Star on the lid was the symbol of the
Royal House of Macedon.
http://alexander.macedonia.culture.gr/2/21/211/21117a/e211qa07.html
-----------------------------------------------------
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> PLM: I have not seen any absurd Alien theories postulated in this thread,
> until now, Todd. I understand what you say, but I have not seen anything
> from Mr. Tinney that is not plausible;
You don't find it implausible that a woman could have 24
children, all of whom live to adulthood, but only two have any
children? Nor that a man said to have died in the 590s BC AND
fought with Alexander can be definitively said to have actually
fought in the Punic Wars?
> PLM: Ugaine Mor is not my prime interest in this thread, but the general
> idea that there is a Celtic/Jewish origin for Ireland:-)
But that is anthropology, not genealogy.
> Given the dubious
> nature of names in general, I do not put much weight behind them; he may
> have been called "You Gain More-land, if you steal the kings wife and
> daughter", for all I care:-)
Names, though, are critical to genealogy. If suddenly we are
talking about some unnamed leader leading some unnamed Irish
someplace, at some time, and then taking guesses at what it
really means, then whatever else can be said about it, it isn't
genealogy.
> All I know of the origin of Ireland, I have from Morgan Llywelyn's novels;
> so I find this all fascinating. I know there is later tradition that St.
> James, et al went to England and other theories of a Jewish connection to
> the Merovingian dynasty, but this is the first hint I have had that there is
> such an early association with Ireland.
And the St. James traditions are late inventions, and the
Merovingian connections are late inventions, and the Irish ones .
. .
> As an aside, it is a known fact that the Jews hid their texts and trasures
> and it is a natural custom that evolved from being constantly at war and
> subjugated by other nations, and this is obvious to me at least.
OK, first of all, "the Jews" is an awfully broad term, and I am
not sure that any group that gets attacked isn't going to hide
things.
> The "Dead
> Sea Scrolls" are a prime example of Jewish texts that were "hidden" and it
> would be absurd to think that this was an isolated phenomenon.
Were they "hidden" or just stored?
> Furthermore,
> the Crusades were not begun for religeous principle, but for greed, because
> it was known "fact" that the relics and treasure of the Jews was still
> "HIDDEN" in or near Jerusalem.
This is simply not true. They were begun for a religeous
principle. (The very timing points to this - the treasures of
the Jews were there throughout Byzantine rule. After an invading
army comes in, you would expect less treasures to survive. So
why did the Crusades start immediately after the Muslims
conquered this land?) However, to broaden and maintain such a
movement, there have also to be additional motivations.
> If anyone begs to differ on this point, they
> clearly need to do some more study.
I beg to differ, so what can I study? (specific references)
> The fact that the "Arch of the Covenant"
> has never been recovered is another prime example of how the Jews "Hid"
> their sacred possessions
The texts say that the Arch was hauled off by a conqueror. Now
there are two explanations here. The more complex is that this
was forged in a conspiracy to cover up the fact that it was
actually hidden. The more mundane is that it was hauled off by a
conqueror (who certainly would not have treated it as anything
more than a big hunk of gold).
> and it may be of interest to some to know that it
> still exists and remains guarded, per a fairly recent article in the
> "Augustan".
I assume the article had pictures? Such claims of 2000 year
conspiracies to hide venerated objects are numerous. Just look
at all of the "true documents changing the interpretation of all
history" hidden within the Vatican Archives. If the Arch still
exists, show me the pictures, and tell me how it has managed to
survive, guarded, but secret, for 2000 years. Simply put,
extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
> Concerning long hair, this was a Nazarite tradition and not a custom of all
> Jews. Numbers 6:5
Long hair is nothing more than the natural condition of hair that
is not cut, and was a tradition of most human populations at one
time or another. Certainly one needs something more than long
hair to tie Jews or Nazarites to Irish.
That being said, this is a genealogical group, and so the
discussion needs to be brought back to genealogy.
What is the earliest reference that specifically names Tamar
Thephi of Judeah and places her in Ireland?
taf
Matthew Harley
Well said.
I once asked why one should bother opposing nonsense on newsgroups.
The answer from a smart person I know and respect was that there are
thousands of occasional readers (lurkers, young folks, occasional visitors,
amateurs, etc.) who should be warned that much of the apparently profound,
plausible, interesting material published on newsgroups is actually rubbish,
peddled by people with agendas who lack any sense of rigour in their
analysis.
In the case of early Irish history, we are blessed in having many very early
(but rarely contemporary sources). If we are to make sense of this rich,
but limited, very imperfect, probably politically motivated evidence for
these early periods of Irish history we have to be very careful (sceptical
if you wish).
Instead of taking this critical attitude, on the contrary, the Tinneys look
for every possible connection, however implausible, to support their case.
This is a totally unscientific method of research which should be opposed in
the interest of real scholarship. It is so easy to build incredible theories
on centuries of uncertainty.
Thank you for saying so elequantly:
"They [Messrs Tinney] are, in fact, dangerous when they mislead sincere
seekers for knowledge like yourself [Phil Moody] into thinking them worthy
of consideration. It is characteristic of the crank to be sincere,
dedicated, monomaniacally committed to their beliefs, and as a result of
their fervor, frequently very persuasive to the unwary."
It's a form of historical pornography: titillating for the gullible, but
ultimately cheap and debased.
Matt Harley
Chris & Tom Tinney, Sr.
was originally called Magh Breagh. On
this hill, called also Teamor, from Teaghmor,
"the great house," was held the general
assembly of the states of the kingdom,
which met triennially, from a very early
period to the end of the sixth century.]
http://www.fortunecity.com/bally/kilkenny/2/irehstry.htm
Similar to "Tinriland in Carlow; . . .
house of the Raoire, a very ancient
name of a Royal residence.
Teamor, from Teaghmor, "the great house",
refers to "Tigh", re: Tin, as per previous post:
[The Origin and History of Irish
Names of Places, Vol. III, published in
1913, by P. W. Joyce, LL. D., one of
the Commissioners for the Publication
of the Ancient Laws of Ireland, pages
572-574, namely:
Tennalick in Longford; Tigh-na-lice,
house of the flagstone;
Tentore in Kilkenny; Tigh-an-tuair,
house of the bleach-green, or grazing place;
Tinacarra in Roscommon; Tigh-na-caraidh,
house of the weir or dam;
Tinacrannagh in King's Co.; Tigh-na-cranncha,
house of the trees;
Tinahask in Wicklow; Tigh-na-heasca,
house of the quagmire or quagmire stream
(eisc);
Tinahely in Wicklow; Tigh-na-hEilighe,
house of the Ely [a little river name];
Tincarraun in Kilkenny; Tigh-an-charrain,
house of the rocky land;
Tincashel in Kilkenny; Tigh-an-chaisil,
house of the cashel or stone fort;
Tincurra in Wexford;
house of the curragh or moor;
Tingarran in Kilkenny; Tigh-an-gharrain,
house of the garran or copse;
Tinnaberna in Wexford; . . .
house of the gap;
Tinnabinna in Waterford;
house of the binn or pinnacle;
Tinnaclash in Carlow; . . .
house of the trench;
Tinnaclohy in Queen's Co.;
house of the stone (cloch);
Tinnahask in Wexford;
same as Tinahask;
Tinnaragh in Queen's Co.,
and Tinnarath in Wexford, . . .
house of the rath or fort;
Tinnaranny in Kilkenny; . . .
house of the point (rinn, reanna);
Tinnascolly in Kilkenny; . . .
house of the school: "schoolhouse";
Tinnashrule in Wexford; . . .
house of the shrule or stream;
Tinnaslatty in Kilkenny; . . .
house of the slat or rod;
Tinnasragh in Queen's Co.; . . .
house of the srath or river-holm;
Tinnynar in Longford; . . .
house of the slaughters;
Tinoran in Wicklow; . . .
house of the uarain or well;
Tinriland in Carlow; . . .
house of the Raoire,
a very ancient name of a Royal
residence;
Tintine in Kilkenny; . . .
house of the [Tinteem] bush (tom, tuim);
Tintur in Waterford, . . .
house of the bush (tur). ]
As noted heretofore:
[The Jewish aristocratic Avtinus family
was part of the Temple priesthood in
Jerusalem, Israel. Celtic Ireland is noted
in the Atlas of Irish History, published
1997, under MacMillan USA, Map,
page 15. Ptolemy, an Alexandrian Greek
geographer writing after A.D. 100, locates
the Tribe of Auteini [alternative name:
Uaithne], at the intersection of 53 degrees
latitude with 9 degrees longitude, in what
is now County Clare. It is significant
to note that as the first Celtic peoples
began to arrive in Ireland, "in the second
half of the first millennium B.C.," traces
of the Tribes of the House of Israel,
dispersed over the earth at the Capture
of Jerusalem in 587 B.C., appear both
in Kingly traditions and surname
similarities of the Jewish aristocratic
Avtinus family. ]
Tannaim, i.e., the tanna, or Teni
were the ancient Jewish scholars,
expounding law and teaching the
people in synagogues and academies,
the foundations of an ancient University.
In Jerusalem there was at the
Temple Mount the Avtinus Chamber
Room, where incense was compounded
for later use in the offerings upon the
Golden Altar.
Beth Ab was the name for the Father's
House, the Temple at Jerusalem.
This holy chamber [Av (father)
+ tinus; Ab is a variant of Av, part
of Aramaic abba, father], was named
after the Jewish aristocratic Avtinus
family, merchants and spice makers.
According to The Babylonian Talmud,
Vol. 12, Seder Mo'ed, (Vol. IV),
Shekalim, Chapter V, page 19,
the House of Abtinas [was] over
the preparing of the frankincense.
Respectfully yours,
Tom Tinney, Sr.
Genealogy and Family History Internet Web Directory
http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~vctinney/
<http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/%7Evctinney/>
"Free Coverage of the Genealogy World in a Nutshell"
Who's Who in America, Millennium Edition [54th] -
Who's Who In Genealogy and Heraldry, [both editions]
------------------------------------------------
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> anyone would find in Vergina, in northern
> Greece, the site of the Macedonian Royal
> Tombs.
So what? This is the typical 'Galileo argument'. "People
doubted Galileo, and he was right. People doubt me, . . . the
conclusion is obvious." The fact that a few 'absurd' theories
turn out to be true is of no evaluative value. The vast majority
of 'absurd' ideas are still absurd, and will remain so, forever.
Lysenko was wrong, and still is. Velikovsky was wrong, and still
is. Pons was wrong.
Your theory must stand on its own merits - there are no
coattails.
taf
D. Spencer Hines
Hilarious!
Deus Vult.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing." -- Attributed to Edmund Burke [1729-1797]
Warriors ---- "There is much tradition and mystique in the bequest of
personal weapons to a surviving comrade in arms. It has to do with a
continuation of values past individual mortality. People living in a
time made safe for them by others may find this difficult to
understand." _Hannibal_, Thomas Harris, Delacorte Press, [1999], p. 397.
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
-------------------
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"Matthew Harley" <har...@eircom.net> wrote in message
news:3BF060A3...@eircom.net...
Matthew Harley
"Chris & Tom Tinney, Sr." wrote:
> It was absurd, prior to 1977, to believe that
> anyone would find in Vergina, in northern
> Greece, the site of the Macedonian Royal
> Tombs.
Why was it "absurd" to suppose such tombs in northern Greece? I thought
Alexander came from up there.
Even if it was absurd, I doubt if you would have found it so.
It would have been just another "connection".
Matt Harley.
Matthew Harley
"Chris & Tom Tinney, Sr." wrote:
> [The district surrounding the hill of Taragh
> was originally called Magh Breagh.
It is the Plain of Brega.
I know it well and there is nothing mysterious about it.
It includes the Hill of Tara and many other places.
Your quotes are all late and irrelevant.
Except possibly for:
Teamor, from Teaghmor, "the great house", refers to "Tigh"...
If you study the recent archaeological finds at Navan Fort (Emhain
Macha) you will find that one of the structures found there was a sort
of large ceremonial round house. Tara may have been a similar ritual
structure.
But if you are right about the origin of the name "Teamhar", what
happened to, what's her name, "Tamar" after whom Teamhar is supposedly
named, according to you?
You are becoming incoherent.
Matt Harley
norenxaq
>
> > The fact that the "Arch of the Covenant"
> > has never been recovered is another prime example of how the Jews "Hid"
> > their sacred possessions
>
> The texts say that the Arch was hauled off by a conqueror. Now
> there are two explanations here. The more complex is that this
> was forged in a conspiracy to cover up the fact that it was
> actually hidden. The more mundane is that it was hauled off by a
> conqueror (who certainly would not have treated it as anything
> more than a big hunk of gold).
>
And there is the Ethiopian tradition that it was stolen... A third possibilty, or a
variation on the second?
Paul C. Reed
> >
> > It was absurd, prior to 1977, to believe that
> > anyone would find in Vergina, in northern
> > Greece, the site of the Macedonian Royal
> > Tombs.
>
Forgive me for butting in for a minute, Mr. Tinney.
PLEASE respond to this, as it might get replies closer to the track
of historical method and closer to something resembling facts which
can be evaluated.
Even if we were to ASSUME for the sake of argument that a daughter of
Zedekiah, spirited away by the Prophet Jeremiah, managed to make it
to Spain, and then on to Ireland about 583 BC,
(1) WHAT INDICATION do we have that she married a non Jew of the
local Irish population and left issue from which descent can be
traced, and
(2) WHO is it that she married and mothered?
Again, according to the Irish annals, Heremon lived (according to
their reckoning) about 1700 BC (but don't the annals also state that
they came to Ireland about the time of the Temple of Solomon, which
is closer, in historical reality, to 1000 BC?). That much is at
least stated from the 'historical' records you are using to get that
far.
WHO do you think this daughter of King Zedekiah married in Ireland,
and why?
Paul
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> But if you are right about the origin of the name "Teamhar", what
> happened to, what's her name, "Tamar" after whom Teamhar is supposedly
> named, according to you?
>
> You are becoming incoherent.
But consistent, remember:
>> Beth Ab was the name for the Father's
>> House, the Temple at Jerusalem.
>> This holy chamber [Av (father)
>> + tinus; Ab is a variant of Av, part
>> of Aramaic abba, father], was named
>> after the Jewish aristocratic Avtinus
>> family, merchants and spice makers.
You see, again the name is derived linguistically, but it was
named after a family. Why have it of either linguistic or
nominal origin, when you can simply assign two mutually exclusive
origins at the same time.
This sillyness has gone on long enough. Unless there is
something particularly aggregious posted, I will not be
responding any further.
taf
Chris & Tom Tinney, Sr.
egregious is your "aggregious", which means
"standing out from the herd". I refer you to
the Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar.
http://www.xmission.com/~research/about/alphabet.htm
You will note here that one of the distinct
characteristics is that a name designation varies
according to how it is used, or in what degree
it is placed. EXAMPLE:
The signification of Beth is man's first residence
Of Iota - The eye
Beth a fruitful garden or a great valley
or plain filled with fruit trees and flowers
Iota To see
Beth good to the taste, pleasing to the eye
Iota sight
Beth Sweet and precious to the smell
Iota me myself
Beth place of happiness, purity, holiness & rest
Iota see, saw seeing or having seen
Ah brah-oam is:
a father of many nations
a prince of peace
one who keeps the commandments of God.
A patriarch
a rightful heir
a high priest
My evaluation uses the logic framework
from the said grammar, as applied to the
Irish record sources, assuming, for the sake
of evaluation, that a said Tamar, daughter of
King Zedekiah, married into Irish Royalty,
as indicated clearly by the Jewish pattern
in the Irish record sources, as discussed
heretofore.
Respectfully yours,
Tom Tinney, Sr.
Genealogy and Family History Internet Web Directory
http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~vctinney/
<http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/%7Evctinney/>
"Free Coverage of the Genealogy World in a Nutshell"
Who's Who in America, Millennium Edition [54th] -
Who's Who In Genealogy and Heraldry, [both editions]
-----------------------------------------------------
Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
>Matthew Harley wrote:
>
>>But if you are right about the origin of the name "Teamhar", what
>>happened to, what's her name, "Tamar" after whom Teamhar is supposedly
>>named, according to you?
>>
>>You are becoming incoherent.
>>
>
>But consistent, remember:
>
>>>Beth Ab was the name for the Father's
>>>House, the Temple at Jerusalem.
>>>This holy chamber [Av (father)
>>>+ tinus; Ab is a variant of Av, part
>>>of Aramaic abba, father], was named
>>>after the Jewish aristocratic Avtinus
>>>family, merchants and spice makers.
>>>
>
Phil Moody
I assume the article had pictures? Such claims of 2000 year
conspiracies to hide venerated objects are numerous. Just look
at all of the "true documents changing the interpretation of all
history" hidden within the Vatican Archives. If the Arch still
exists, show me the pictures, and tell me how it has managed to
survive, guarded, but secret, for 2000 years. Simply put,
extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
PLM: I have been up all night so I'll not fully answer your worthy post at
this time, or all the others for that matter. I can give you the cite for
the Ark though, now that I have found it:-) There are no pictures, nor
extraordinary proof, but it is very interesting withal:-) Curiously though,
Mr. Atlaw studied Theology and Anthropology in Dublin for four years and he
sees striking Ecclesiastical similarities between early Irish Christianity
and the Orthodox religion of the Ethiopian Church. He thinks it is possible
the two had a common origin, but he gives equal plausibility to the theory
that they could have evolved from the same texts independantly of each
other.
_The Augustan_, Volume XXVI, Number 3 [1999-2000], pages 2-11.
_An Interview with the Venerable Getahun Atlaw, Archdeacon of the Ethiopian
Orthodox Church of Jerusalem: On Abyssinian Traditions of the Solomonic
Dynasty, Ecclesiastical Distinctions and the Ark of the Covenant_ by Charles
Bryant-Abraham, Ph.D.
Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
That being said, this is a genealogical group, and so the
discussion needs to be brought back to genealogy.
PLM: Hmm, well, Mr. Atlaw says and I quote, "In the Ethiopian Orthodox
Church, we accept the account in the *Kebra Nagast*, which records the Ark
was brought to Ethiopia from Jerusalem by Menelik I, son of King Solomon and
the Queen of Sheba."
This is the extent of my knowledge of a genealogic nature concerning this
off topic, or a tangent of Tamar, I should say:-)
Best Wishes,
Chris & Tom Tinney, Sr.
Venerable Getahun Atlaw,
Archdeacon of the Ethiopian
Orthodox Church of
Charles Bryant-Abraham, PhD,
The Hon. Knight de Bryan, OAA
. . .
[I'm referring specifically to the origins
of the Solomonic dynasty of the late
Emperor Haile Selassie I and to the
Abyssinian traditions of the Ark
of the Covenant.]
http://sellassie.ourfamily.com/academics/orthodoxy.html
[Radiocarbon dating shows that Sabaea
flourished from about B.C.900 to B.C.450.
It was a trading empire exploiting its proximity
to Africa across the Straits of Bab el Mandeb
and served as a center of the maritime trade
from India and East Africa, transporting by
camel caravans foreign luxuries and its own
home-produced frankincense to Mesopotamia,
Syria, and Egypt. The visit of the Queen of
Sheba to King Solomon was probably a trade
mission. It was most likely occasioned by
Solomon's occupation of the head of the
Gulf of Aqaba and the commercial activity
of his "ships of Tarshish" in the Red Sea
which threatened the Sabaean monopoly
of the caravan trade.]
The Ark of the Covenant
http://artsales.com/comstock/ark/
[The ark is said to have been
built shortly after the Exodus
occurred, therefore the craftsmen
who were commissioned to build
the Ark would have learned their
craft in Egypt; with this in mind
it is highly likely the conventions
and imagery used to build the Ark
would have been totally consistent
with conventions used in Egyptian
art on or before 1220 BCE.]
Timelines and Events of the Hebrew
Sojourn Superimposed on a Historic
Chronology of The Pharaohs of
Ancient Egypt
http://artsales.com/comstock/ark/Timeline1.htm
Respectfully yours,
Tom Tinney, Sr.
Genealogy and Family History Internet Web Directory
http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~vctinney/
<http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/%7Evctinney/>
"Free Coverage of the Genealogy World in a Nutshell"
Who's Who in America, Millennium Edition [54th] -
Who's Who In Genealogy and Heraldry, [both editions]
----------------------------------------
Phil Moody
Please be advised the phrase "The Hon. Knight de Bryan" is not in the
printed version and is a later addition. You can substitute "writer" in
place of the phrase for note 3. at the end of the article.
Cheers,
Phil
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris & Tom Tinney, Sr. [mailto:vcti...@dcn.davis.ca.us]
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 2:21 PM
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Tamar (Tea) Thephi of Judah
DCM
"Paul C. Reed" <rp...@uswest.net> wrote:
> > "Chris & Tom Tinney, Sr." wrote:
> > >
> > > It was absurd, prior to 1977, to believe that
> > > anyone would find in Vergina, in northern
> > > Greece, the site of the Macedonian Royal
> > > Tombs.
> >
>
> Forgive me for butting in for a minute, Mr. Tinney.
>
> PLEASE respond to this, as it might get replies closer to the track
> of historical method and closer to something resembling facts which
> can be evaluated.
>
> Even if we were to ASSUME for the sake of argument that a daughter of
> Zedekiah, spirited away by the Prophet Jeremiah, managed to make it
> to Spain, and then on to Ireland about 583 BC,
>
> (1) WHAT INDICATION do we have that she married a non Jew of the
> local Irish population and left issue from which descent can be
> traced, and
>
> (2) WHO is it that she married and mothered?
From what I have read:
Milesius, King of Spain and his wife Scota, Princess of Egypt had a son
Eochaid the Heremon who married King Zedekiah's daughter Tamar (Tea)
Thephi.
Tamar (Tea) Thephi of Judah married Eochaidh the Heremon, High
King of Ireland (2nd Monarch)
I have seen the above referenced by the following book:
Title: Ancestry of Richard Plantagenet & Cecily de Neville
Author: Ernst-Friedrich Kraentzler
Publication: published by author 1978
Tamar and Eochaid had a son Irial Fiadh, the 10th Monarch of Ireland. He
had issue and the line continues:
Eithriall 11th, Monarch of Ireland
Follain
Tighernmas, 13th Monarch of Ireland
Eanbotha
Smiorguil
Fianchadh, 18th Monarch of Ireland
Angus I, 20th Monarch of Ireland
Maoin
Rotheachta, 22nd Monarch of Ireland
Dein (Dan)
Siorna Saeghalach, 34th Monarch of Ireland
Oliolla Olchaoin
Giallchadh, 37th Monarch of Ireland
Nuadha Fionn, Fail 39th Monarch of Ireland
Simon Breac, 44th Monarch of Ireland
Mureadhach, 46th Monarch of Ireland
Fiachagh Bolgrach, 55th Monarch of Ireland
Duach Laidrach, 59th Monarch of Ireland
Eochaid Buiglaig
Ugaine Mar "the Great", 66th Monarch of Ireland
Cobhthach Caolbreag, 69th Monarch of Ireland
Meilage, 71st Monarch of Ireland
Juran Glosfathach, 74th Monarch of Ireland
Conla Cruaich Cealgach, 76th Monarch of Ireland
Oiliolla Caisfhiachlach, 77th Monarch of Ireland
Eochiad II, 79th Monarch of Ireland
Angus the Prolific High King of Ireland, 81st Monarch of Ireland
Enna Aighneach, 84th Monarch Ireland
Labrha Luite, King in Ireland
Blathachta, King in Ireland
Easamhuin Earnhna, King in Ireland
Roignein Ruadh, King in Ireland
Finlocha, King in Ireland
Finn, King in Ireland
Eochaidh Feidhlioch, 93rd Monarch Ireland
Brias Fineamhaus mac Eochaid, King in Ireland
Lugaaidh Riebdearg, 98th Monarch Ireland
Crimthann Niadh-Nar, 100th Monarch of Ireland
Feareadach Fionn Feachtnach, 102d Monarch of Ireland
Fiacha Fionn Ola, 104th Monarch of Ireland
Tuathal Teachdmar, 106th Monarch of Ireland
Felim Rachtmar, 108th Monarch of Ireland
Conn of the 100 Battles, 110th Monarch of Ireland
Then skipping several generations this line continues to:
Alpin of Kintyre, King of Scotland
Kenneth I, King of Scotland
and on to:
Matilda the Empress, Queen of England who married Geoffrey V "the Fair"
(Plantagenet).
This descent would then tie in the line of King David down through Tamar
and Eochaidh the Heremon to many of the Royal Families and rulers of
England, Ireland and Scotland. One of the reasons they often bore the
Royal Arms of Jerusalem.
>
> Again, according to the Irish annals, Heremon lived (according to
> their reckoning) about 1700 BC (but don't the annals also state that
> they came to Ireland about the time of the Temple of Solomon, which
> is closer, in historical reality, to 1000 BC?). That much is at
> least stated from the 'historical' records you are using to get that
> far.
>
In the Irish Annals you can get the real date by subtracting 5200.
The following is from:
http://homepage.tinet.ie/~williamfinnerty/name/annals.htm
"Please note that the year numbers used by The Four Masters in the
scanned images below are not referenced to the birth of Christ. To
normalise them, "The Age of the World" years used by The Four Masters
need to be subtracted from 5,200: and the results will give years that
are BC. For example, Age of The World Year 3923 equals 1277 BC (as a
result of subtracting 3923 from 5200)."
The Annals and alot of other Irish Books are translated and available
for online viewing at CELT (Corpus of Electronic Texts) at:
http://www.ucc.ie/celt/publishd.html
As always I stand to be corrected.
David
Chris & Tom Tinney, Sr.
of trade and trade relations, going back to
the time of Abraham. Merchant activities
of the Jews, back to the time of
Abraham, are noted in the
Journal of Near Eastern Studies,
Vol. XVII (Jan-Oct 1958).
In the article "Abraham and the
Merchants of Ura", Cyrus H. Gordon
mentions that for some strange reason,
little if any attention has been paid
to the repeated statement in Genesis
that the patriarchs were in Palestine
for trading. The patriarchs went
abroad to do business, as Abraham
comes from beyond the Euphrates,
visits Egypt, fights with kinglets from
as far off as Elam; i.e., it is clear that
Abraham was a merchant prince.
Settling down in a foreign area would
be part of merchant activities of the
extended patriarchal family, to provide
a sure chain of command, with bona
fide and honest individuals.
Abraham's "wandering was not
nomadism in the Bedouin sense,
but was an occupational feature
of tamkarutum, 'trading abroad'.
The patriarchal narratives, far
from reflecting Bedouin life,
are highly international in their milieu,
in a setting where a world order enabled
men to travel far and wide for business
enterprise."
Jewish involvement in metals is
mentioned in the Biblical book of
Numbers, Chapter 31, verses 21-23,
for in the purification of the
soldiers, it was permissible to keep
gold, silver, brass, iron, tin, and lead.
T. W. Potter and Catherine Johns
mention in Roman Britain, (1992),
that scrap metal was being traded
across the English Channel by the
Middle Bronze Age (c. 1200-
1100 B.C.), validated by cargoes
in ship wrecks lying on the
seabed. When the Temple at
Jerusalem was completed,
Solomon gave Hiram, King
of Tyre, twenty "cities" in Galilee.
The writings of Strabo, heretofore quoted,
suggest that the Jewish merchant class
followed King Solomon's example;
that for generations, they cemented
local protection of their Diaspora group,
by entering into marriages and having
concubine contract agreements with
local royalty and families in positions
of authority.
The Journal of Near Eastern Studies,
Vol. XVI, (January-October 1957),
has the article: "The Problem of
Ancient Oriental Shipping on the
North Sea", by B. Lundman.
He states that on all the Frisian
Islands quite a number of people
with huge curved noses and darker
coloring are found. There are also
instances of a similar type found
in the coastal areas of the British
Isles. These darker skin colored
people, with slightly thick lips,
have almost "Jewish" noses, and
convex "Iberian, nay Assyrian profiles".
This is similar to the population of
Cornwall, England with Semitic
traces of the Jewish-Armenoid type.
The question below should be:
Is there any INDICATION that
a daughter of the deposed Zedekiah,
King of Judah, married a member
of the Irish Royalty; connected
by trade and social contacts
(ancestry) with Jerusalem, SINCE
the time of the Phoenican contacts
between Hiram and King Solomon?
In other words, it was the ancestry
of Heremon that came to Ireland
about the time of the Temple of
Solomon and intermarried with the
resident population.
Respectfully yours,
Tom Tinney, Sr.
Genealogy and Family History Internet Web Directory
http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~vctinney/ <http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/%7Evctinney/>
"Free Coverage of the Genealogy World in a Nutshell"
Who's Who in America, Millennium Edition [54th] -
Who's Who In Genealogy and Heraldry, [both editions]
-----------------------------------------------------------
DCM wrote:
>In article <3BF07FE2...@uswest.net>,
> "Paul C. Reed" <rp...@uswest.net> wrote:
>
>>>"Chris & Tom Tinney, Sr." wrote:
>>>
>>>>It was absurd, prior to 1977, to believe that
>>>>anyone would find in Vergina, in northern
>>>>Greece, the site of the Macedonian Royal
>>>>Tombs.
>>>>
Paul C. Reed
"Chris & Tom Tinney, Sr." wrote:
> The whole argument centers on the subject
> of trade and trade relations, going back to
> the time of Abraham.
[snip]
No, I would say the question of whether a girl supposed to be in Ireland in 583 BC
was wife of a man who would have lived CENTURIES earlier is one of chronology, on
the face of it.
I have no problem with claims that Phoenicians or other traders had contacts
throughout and beyond the Mediterranean. There is even a book which, by much the
same reasoning you have been using, claims that the Brits were descendants of the
"Phoenecians":
http://www.hiddenmysteries.com/item/item40.html
(Of course, I do not hold to their 'conclusions' for a second.)
> The question below should be:
>
> Is there any INDICATION that
> a daughter of the deposed Zedekiah,
> King of Judah, married a member
> of the Irish Royalty; connected
> by trade and social contacts
> (ancestry) with Jerusalem, SINCE
> the time of the Phoenican contacts
> between Hiram and King Solomon?
>
The question should be...?
A MEMBER of the Irish royalty? That is rather VAGUE, given the title of this
thread [Tamar (Tea) Thephi of Judah].
The CLAIM being debated is about 'evidence' for the marriage of a daughter of
Zedekiah to 'Heremon, High King of Ireland.' How do you reconcile the
chronological difficulty?
There is a great deal of difference between stating,
(1) I think somehow Irish royalty intermarried with descendants of Jewish royalty,
at some point, somehow, but I have no direct evidence or proof for this except
vague generalities. [You might say the same thing about any two peoples.]
and
(2) Tamar, daughter of Zedekiah, married Heremon, and had issue.
The second question is a genealogical question, and actually the question that was
posed in the beginning. This second question is a question which can be tested and
resolved.
Mr. Tinney, respectfully, you seem to be another person who cannot admit an error
despite however plain it is that the genealogical claim at hand is impossible.
Paul
DCM
Jon Meltzer <jonme...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Nov 2001 11:43:55 GMT, DCM <dcm57...@cybortronik.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Milesius, King of Spain and his wife Scota, Princess of Egypt had a son
> >Eochaid the Heremon who married King Zedekiah's daughter Tamar (Tea)
> >Thephi.
> >
> >Tamar (Tea) Thephi of Judah married Eochaidh the Heremon, High
> >King of Ireland (2nd Monarch)
> >
> >I have seen the above referenced by the following book:
> >
> >Title: Ancestry of Richard Plantagenet & Cecily de Neville
> >Author: Ernst-Friedrich Kraentzler
> >Publication: published by author 1978
>
> And what original sources did _this_ author use?
>
> Anyone can self-publish a book with unverified and demonstratibly
> false statements. For example, if I published something stating that
> George W. Bush was the son of Bill Clinton, I am sure that that would
> be used as a "source" in someone's ancestral record
>
>
>
Agreed. Just included as side and wondering myself.
DM
Chris & Tom Tinney, Sr.
me with your opinion concerning the Chart made
up by Archibald F. Bennett. When discussing
tea or tephi, tea and tep are of the same root
word, as noted before in my discussions. Tamar
is connected to the Biblical King David and
Taphath was the daughter of Solomon, as noted
in 1 Kings, Chapter 4, verse 11. She married
"The son of Abinadab". He is also noted as
Benabinadab , one of the twelve prefects who
governed, under Solomon, the place "Dora".
[The Egyptian King Rameses III set up a Phoe;
http://archpropplan.auckland.ac.nz/virtualtour/rameses/
necian colony at Dora; according to Stephan of
Byzantium the Phoe;necians settled there because
the coast abounded in the shells that produced
the famous Tyrian purple dye.]
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05133b.htm
For a moment, consider the Irish pedigree below
independent of chronology, namely:
LAMHFIONN
Heber GLUNFIONN
Agnan FIONN
Febric GLAS
NENUALL
NUADADH(NUADHAD)
ALLADH
ARCADH(AREADH}
DEAG(H)
BRATH
(Brigus) BREOGHAN
BILE
(Galamh) MILESIUS
HEREMON
Irial FAIDH
Secondly, take a traditional accounting of
the first name, Lamhfionn . . . "After
many traverses of fortune at sea,
this little fleet with their leader arrived
at last and landed at Gothia or Geulia
--more recently called Lybia, where
Carthage was afterwards built; and,
soon after, Lamhfionn died there.
http://www.hynes.net/adam.html#Milesius
This follows the same pattern as:
[Elissa (Elishat) took a group of Tyrians
first to Cyprus and then to the north
coast of Africa opposite Sicily after
her brother slew her husband.
Because of the tales of all her
wanderings, she received the name
'Dido' (Deido)--the wanderer. ]
http://www.carthage.edu/outis/carthage.html
However, from a chronological standpoint,
814/3 B.C. is when Carthage was founded
by Tyrian colonists according to Timaeus
(350-260 BCE), a historian from Taormina
in Sicily historian. F.Gr.Hist. 566 fr.60
http://www.carthage.edu/outis/carthage3.html
Using revised Biblical chronology derived from
"inscriptions on Assyrian and other monuments",
LAMHFIONN falls within the time period when
Shishak plunders Jerusalem; noting connective
Heber GLUNFIONN to Hebrew = 'Eber,
possibly as "one who had come from beyond
(the Euphrates)"; his ancestry.
LAMHFIONN, born circa 955 B.C.
Heber GLUNFIONN, born circa 930 B.C.
Agnan FIONN, born circa 905 B.C.
Febric GLAS, born circa 870 B.C.
NENUALL, born circa 845 B.C.
NUADADH(NUADHAD), born circa 820 B.C.
[Carthage founded ca. 814/813 B.C.; also
approximates "His posterity continued
there to the eighth generation; and
were kings or chief rulers there
for one hundred and fifty years"]
ALLADH, born circa 795 B.C.
ARCADH(AREADH}, born circa 770 B.C.
DEAG(H), born circa 745 B.C.
BRATH, born circa 720 B.C.
(Brigus) BREOGHAN, born circa 695 B.C.
BILE, born circa 670 B.C.
(Galamh) MILESIUS, born circa 645 B.C.
HEREMON, born circa 620 B.C.
[Heremon: his son. He and his eldest
brother Heber] is indicative of Jewish
trade relationships within the Irish naming
patterns. [The writings of Strabo, heretofore
quoted, suggest that the Jewish merchant class
followed King Solomon's example;
that for generations, they cemented
local protection of their Diaspora group,
by entering into marriages and having
concubine contract agreements with
local royalty and families in positions
of authority.]
http://www.hynes.net/milesius.html
[The famous geographer, Strabo,
writing c. 35 B.C., referring to
an event of 87 B.C., and possibly
echoing Artemidorus of Ephesus,
c. 100 B.C., stated that the
*oecumene*, i.e., the world
inhabited by civilized or
semi-civilized peoples, was
"full of Jews," who had
"penetrated every city" and
become so ubiquitous that,
he said, "it is not easy to
find any place in the *oecumene*
into which their race has not
made its way or in which it
has not gained mastery
[over the natives]." (2)
He also noted that the aliens
obtained special privileges
and were allowed to function
as an *enclave* largely
independent of the local
government. This account
was proudly endorsed by the
Jews' famous apologist,
Josephus (*Ant.* XIV, vii, 2
= Chapters 112-118), writing
c. A.D. 94, who quotes Strabo
verbatim.] Jeremiah's phrase
"all the nations on earth" is
echoed in the words of Strabo.
The Jewish practice of sending
gold from Italy and all the
provinces, to the Temple at
Jerusalem, is attested to by Cicero
(106 to 43 B.C.). Irish gold
ornaments, obtained by excavations
at Gaza, on the Mediterranean Sea
near the Sinai Peninsula, dated
circa 800 B.C., indicate the
presence of a Jewish community
settlement in Ireland, established
earlier according to the patterns
of mobility among ancient Near
Eastern craftsmen.
"Patterns of Mobility Among
Ancient Near Eastern Craftsmen",
by Carlo Zaccagnini, of the
University of Bologna, Journal of
Near Eastern Studies, Vol. 42,
Number 4 (October 1983), notes
the sending of specialized workers
is well attested in the framework
of the diplomatic relations of kings
of the Late Bronze Age. The skilled
workers were viewed as prestige
goods, strictly bound to the
organization of the temple and
palace economic structure and
are a direct consequence of the
process of surplus accumulation.
Usually, the juridical status of
artisans in metallurgy, etc., was
of free, lifetime administrative
status.
Respectfully yours,
Tom Tinney, Sr.
Genealogy and Family History Internet Web Directory
http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~vctinney/
<http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/%7Evctinney/>
"Free Coverage of the Genealogy World in a Nutshell"
Who's Who in America, Millennium Edition [54th] -
Who's Who In Genealogy and Heraldry, [both editions]
------------------------------------------------------
Paul C. Reed
"Chris & Tom Tinney, Sr." wrote:
> (Galamh) MILESIUS, born circa 645 B.C.
> HEREMON, born circa 620 B.C.
Now you have arbitrarily squished all the chronology down 1,000 years [an entire
millennium], ignoring the genealogy given om the very sources (the Irish annals) which
theoretically get you BACK to Heremon.
How do you reconcile the chronology of the intervening generations of all the other High
Kings and their descendants, and all the events chronicled year by year in those very
same annals?
This is one of the greatest attempts to stretch credulity and ignore 'evidence' given in
the documents at hand where is becomes inconvenient to your theory that I've ever seen.
Paul
Chris & Tom Tinney, Sr.
sources squishes the chronology down, in a non
arbitrary manner. You testify, by your own
accounting, that:
[Again, according to the Irish annals,
Heremon lived (according to their
reckoning) about 1700 BC (but don't
the annals also state that they came
to Ireland about the time of the
Temple of Solomon, which is closer,
in historical reality, to 1000 BC?)]
The difference between 1700 and 1000
is 700 years. (1700 + 1000)/2=
2700/2= 1350 B.C. Seven hundred years
either side of 1350 B.C. is 2050 B.C.
to 650 B.C. The historical internal
evidence places the dating at the
lower range of probability of the
suggested errors in the records, using
1350 B. C. as a mean. This is not
a stretch of credulity, considering
the variation in the records.
That the High Kings of Ireland came
in contact with King Solomon is
suggested in 1 Kings, Chapter 4,
verse 34: "And there came of all
people to hear the wisdom of Solomon,
from all kings of the earth, which
had heard of his wisdom. This
shows a credible contact from a
Biblical source as to the "wisdom"
of the Irish Kings and the origins
of the Brehon Laws, or Laws of
Abraham.
There is a web site called:
"Dates in Irish Myth and Legend".
http://indigo.ie/~legends/dates.html
The first comment is:
3339 BC (AM 1859 - anno mundi; i.e.,
1859 years after the Creation)
Destruction of the Tower of Babel
According to the Biblical chronological
Tables in the sequence of events in the
days of the ancient patriarchs, I note:
approximately 2200 BC Tower of Babel.
3339 B.C. minus 2200 B.C. = 1139 years,
or approximately 1,000 years off, if it does
not ignore historical biblical evidence; no
matter how inconvenient it may be to
the suggested Irish chronological dating.
Respectfully yours,
Tom Tinney, Sr.
Genealogy and Family History Internet Web Directory
http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~vctinney <http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/%7Evctinney/>
"Free Coverage of the Genealogy World in a Nutshell"
Who's Who in America, Millennium Edition [54th] -
Who's Who In Genealogy and Heraldry, [both editions]
---------------------------------------------
Paul C. Reed
"Chris & Tom Tinney, Sr." wrote:
> No, the internal historical evidence of the record
> sources squishes the chronology down, in a non
> arbitrary manner. You testify, by your own
> accounting, that:
>
> [Again, according to the Irish annals,
> Heremon lived (according to their
> reckoning) about 1700 BC (but don't
> the annals also state that they came
> to Ireland about the time of the
> Temple of Solomon, which is closer,
> in historical reality, to 1000 BC?)]
IF IT WERE TRUE that Heremon was a real person, rather than an amalgamation or invention, and
IF IT WERE TRUE that it was indeed actually at the time of the Temple of Solomon. Some might
argue that Heremon did exist, and that the annalist simply added (much after the traditional
fact) a reference to the Temple of Solomon to make the text more interesting and give it a
religious connection. The annalist did not really know when the Temple of Solomon was
built. Stripping off the statement about the Temple of Solomon, how do you justify it?
I think if you are going to claim such a "squish" you have to analyze the internal 'evidence'
in the work and explain to us how you did it and why the specific instances are justified.
AGAIN, you cannot arbitrarily choose to throw things out--you have to had SPECIFIC reasons
and justification for each instance. EVERY LINK in a long string of genealogy has to be
justified (each generation).
Paul
Chris & Tom Tinney, Sr.
Heremon circa the time of 600 B.C., not
at the time of the Temple of Solomon:
LAMHFIONN, born circa 955 B.C.
Heber GLUNFIONN, born circa 930 B.C.
Agnan FIONN, born circa 905 B.C.
Febric GLAS, born circa 870 B.C.
NENUALL, born circa 845 B.C.
NUADADH(NUADHAD), born circa 820 B.C.
[Carthage founded ca. 814/813 B.C.; also
approximates "His posterity continued
there to the eighth generation; and
were kings or chief rulers there
for one hundred and fifty years"]
ALLADH, born circa 795 B.C.
ARCADH(AREADH}, born circa 770 B.C.
DEAG(H), born circa 745 B.C.
BRATH, born circa 720 B.C.
(Brigus) BREOGHAN, born circa 695 B.C.
BILE, born circa 670 B.C.
(Galamh) MILESIUS, born circa 645 B.C.
HEREMON, born circa 620 B.C.
The ancestry of the Kings of Ireland
came in contact with King Solomon, as
suggested in 1 Kings, Chapter 4, verse 34:
"And there came of all people to hear the
wisdom of Solomon, from all kings of the
earth, which had heard of his wisdom."
However, according to the traditional
history, the Irish King ancestry was not of
Ireland proper at the said time of contact;
they were in and around where Carthage,
in the Middle East, was later situated;
a direct sea lane to the City of Jerusalem.
The history of the Brehon Laws, or
the Laws of Abraham, suggest that
Ireland did not suffer completely a Dark
Age; that it maintained some order, not
a cycle of total chaos to re-establishment
of the rule of law after a lawless age; thus,
the preservation within the Irish genealogies
of handed down history.
Geographic Ireland was in contact
with many kingdoms in the Mediterranean,
within the time period of King Solomon.
An Economic Survey of Ancient Rome,
(1959), Vol. III, under Roman Britain
mining and minerals, notes that west
Cornwall [England] was well populated
and in close touch with Brittany and
Ireland, and after 1000 B.C., "they
became much closer, and local finds
demonstrate frequent imports, . . .
these include objects from Gaul,
the Pyrenees, Numidia, Greece,
and Cyprus." The Pyrenees suggest
a connection to Spain and points East.
Construction on the Temple of Solomon
at Jerusalem was completed circa 991 B.C.
Phoenician lettering has been found on the
bottom layer of stones, near the S.E.
corner of the Jerusalem Temple Mount,
as noted in [The Holy Temple Revisited,
(1990)]. The Phoenicians helped King
Solomon and he received from the
Phoenician know-how and materials.
[The temple was built of stone
quarried and prepared by masons
from the Phoenician cities of Tyre
and Jbail (Byblos). The stones were
cut in the quarry: the Bible tells us
not a hammer was heard on the
building site as the stones had been
shaped so perfectly that they
slotted together without being
banged into place.]
On the other hand, the
[Phoenicians always used huge
stones for foundations because
the Levant is located on the
Great Rift Valley - the big stones
helped make buildings earthquake-
proof.]
http://phoenicia.org/temple.html
This type of huge stone is similar to:
{"The Stone, weighing over
300 pounds, . . . rectangular[,] being
about 26" in length; 16" in width;
and, 10.5" in depth[, has a]cross
its surface . . . a crack and some
chisel-marks . . . still visible on one
or two sides. There are two large
iron rings (or some rust resistant
alloy), one at each end of the Stone
which hang loosely from eyes,
made of similar metal let into the
Stone."}
http://www.geocities.com/regkeith/rkeith5d.htm
Ugaine Mor is more particularly established
circa the Punic War era, since the area of
Carthage is the ancient ancestral
Irish homeland. On the continent of
Africa at one of its closest points to Europe;
namely, (the island of Sicily); it is in control
of trade from the eastern to the
western Mediterranean.
Respectfully yours,
Tom Tinney, Sr.
Genealogy and Family History Internet Web Directory
http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~vctinney/
<http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/%7Evctinney/>
"Free Coverage of the Genealogy World in a Nutshell"
Who's Who in America, Millennium Edition [54th] -
Who's Who In Genealogy and Heraldry, [both editions]
-------------------------------------------
Sam Sloan
>The ancestry of the Kings of Ireland
>came in contact with King Solomon, as
>suggested in 1 Kings, Chapter 4, verse 34:
>"And there came of all people to hear the
>wisdom of Solomon, from all kings of the
>earth, which had heard of his wisdom."
Right! This verse in the Holy Bible proves conclusively that the King of
Ireland came to Israel to hear King Solomon. Can there be any doubt?
Sam Sloan
Chris and Tom Tinney, Sr.
c. 430 B.C., Book IV.
[The Phoenicians took their
departure from Egypt by way of
the Erythraean sea, and so
sailed into the southern ocean.
When autumn came, they went
ashore, wherever they might
happen to be, and having sown
a tract of land with corn,
waited until the grain was
fit to cut. Having reaped it,
they again set sail; and thus
it came to pass that two whole
years went by, and it was not
till the third year that they
doubled the Pillars of Hercules,
and made good their voyage home.
King Solomon had at sea a navy
of Tharshish with the navy of
Hiram {King of Tyre, the capital
of ancient Phoenicia}: once in
three years came the navy of
Tharshish, bringing gold,
and silver, ivory and apes,
and peacocks.
Next to these Phoenicians the
Carthaginians, according to their
own accounts, made the voyage.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/anc-nafrica.html
Again, the Irish King ancestry
was not of Ireland proper at
the said time of contact;
they were in and around where
Carthage, in the Middle East,
was later situated; a direct
sea lane to the City of Jerusalem.
-----------------------------------------
Chris and Tom Tinney, Sr.
comes from Jeremiah 45, verse 5,
concerning the promise Jeremiah
gives Baruch that his life shall
be preserved. This is the Key,
from a Biblical standpoint, to
the Irish genealogies. Baruch
was a Scribe; therefore, he would
have kept a written record, and
taught others his trade. There
should be no question about that
issue. "but thy life will I give
unto thee for a prey in all places
whither thou goest" has been
variously translated [NIV] as "but
wherever you go I will let you
escape with your life"; or, [NRSV],
"but I will give you your life
as a prize of war in every place
to which you may go." Reference:
The New Interpreter's Bible, Vol.
VI, c. 2001, by Abingdon Press.
War was imminent, and the conquest
of Ireland, re: Milesius, King of
Spain was a time of war. Let us
search further in the original
records in the time period of
interest, for rebellion in Babylon
circa 595 B.C., shows (Jer. 28:1)
"envoys from Edom, Moab, Ammon,
Tyre, and Sidon met with Zedekiah
in Jerusalem to plan a revolt
against Babylon". Taking the map
of Palestine circa the 7th/6th
centuries B.C., the area included
Phoenicia, Galilee, and areas east
and west of the Jordan River.
The Roll of the Kings, published
in Vol. 44 of Irish Texts Society,
has various redactions. Queen Tea
had sureties for the place of her
burial, before coming to Ireland.
This suggests royal lineage and
that the marriage occurred PRIOR
to the arrival in Ireland, re:
Poem no. LXXXVI, #485.
The records additionally show data
connecting the expedition of the
Sons of Mil with the Cruithne who
came from the land of Thracia, by
intermarriage. Classical evidence
in early Irish record sources are
chronologically altered by the
opinion of Herodotus:
"Whence the gods severally
sprang, whether or no they had
all existed from eternity, what
forms they bore- these are
questions of which the Greeks
knew nothing until the other day,
so to speak. For Homer and Hesiod
were the first to compose Theogonies,
and give the gods their epithets,
to allot them their several offices
and occupations, and describe their
forms; and they lived but four
hundred years before my time, as
I believe. As for the poets who
are thought by some to be earlier
than these, they are, in my judgment,
decidedly later writers. In these
matters I have the authority of
the priestesses of Dodona for the
former portion of my statements;
what I have said of Homer and
Hesiod is my own opinion."
http://classics.mit.edu/Herodotus/history.2.ii.html
"Assuming that Herodotus died
between 429 and 413, it is
reasonable to infer that he was
born between 500 and 470 B.C."
http://home.wxs.nl/~lende045/Herodotus/Herodotus.htm#life
Herodotus dates the classical
Greek connections in Irish
record sources as historical,
no earlier than four hundred
years prior to this time,
or circa 900 B.C.
Section VIII-- The Sons of Mil,
#396, suggests that Erimon deserted
a first wife Odba in Spain and
took Tea in her stead. Section
VIII-- The Sons of Mil, #424,
notes Seng, daughter of Refloir
as wife of Mil; another apparent
wife of Mil, NOT Erimon, is the
said Scota, daughter of Pharao.
Ir is born in the Sea of Thrace.
"Mil had six sons of Scota and
two sons of the Spanish woman"
. . . The births of the
children of Mil suggest contacts
with Scythia, Egypt, Thrace, the
Marshes and Spain.
Ir is of Hebrew origins, appearing
in 1 Chr. 7:6-12. The name means
"city" or "town". Verse 6: The
sons of Benjamin: Bela, Becher,
and Jediael, three. The sons of
Bela: Ezbon, Uzzi, Uzziel,
Jerimoth and Iri, five, heads of
ancestral houses, mighty warriors;
and their enrollment by genealogies
was twenty-two thousand thirty-four.
. . . Verse 12: And Shuppim and
Huppim were the sons of Ir, Hushim
the son of Aher. "Verses 6-11
are taken from a military census
document."
The Irish Mil genealogies are
military, ship census and family
data, connected by historical time
period after the Battle of Carchemish,
circa 605 B.C., when Tyre was forced
to submit to the rule of Babylonia.
The various curses placed against
the sons of Mil so that they could
not find Ireland again, are similar
to "the curses leveled against Tyre
should it abrogate its treaty
obligations"; i.e., the early data
on Ireland contacts reveal treaty
and trade relationships. Just as
in the triad of three Kings in
Ireland, [Mac Cuill, Mac Cecht,
and Mac Greine]: "May Baal Shamaim,
Baal Malagec and Baal Saphon raise
an evil wind against your ships to
undo their moorings and tear out
their mooring pole, may a strong
wave sink them in the sea and a
violent tide [rise] against you".
This curse, taken from Neo-Assyrian
Treaties and Loyalty Oaths, c. 1988,
[as reviewed in Tyre "In the Heart
of the Seas"] shows a cultural link
to Irish Texts, #394, "The druids of
Ireland and the poets sang spells
behind them, so that they were
carried far from Ireland, and were
in distress by reason of the sea."
Respectfully yours,
Tom Tinney, Sr.
Genealogy and Family History Internet Web Directory
http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~vctinney/
"Free Coverage of the Genealogy World in a Nutshell"
Who's Who in America, Millennium Edition [54th] -
Who's Who In Genealogy and Heraldry, [both editions]
-------------------------------------------
Paul C. Reed
[SNIP]
[snip, snip, snip]
While wading through storage last night, I found the book which gave
Archibald F. Bennet the inspiration for his chart on the descents from
Adam. It is _The Royal House of Britain: an Enduring Dynasty_ by
Rev. W. M. H. Milner, and published in London under the "Auspices
of the British-Israel-World Federation" [which published other
memorable works like _British-Israel Facts not Fancies_, _The Bible
and the British Race_, _Fifty Reasons why the Anglo-Saxons are
Israelites_, _The Twofold British Race_, _British-Israel Truth_,
_The Names of God_, and last, but not least, _God and my Birthright; or
The Fifth World-Empire_.]
It was on their agenda to prove that the British race were the heirs of
ancient Israel [and hence the Bible, etc.].
This book states that the claims that the Imperial Crown of Britain
are lineally descended from "old Bible Kings, in fulfilment of the
promise to David of an enduring dynasty" were first published by
the late Rev. F. R. A. Glover in 1860 _England the remnant of Judah
and the Israel of Ephraim. The two Families under One Head--A
Hebrew Episode in British History_.
In it, Glover "proves" that the stone of Scone is in fact Jacob's
stone, the Royal Standard displays at once the Harp of David
and the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, the early prsence of Dan in
Ireland, the coming of the Hebrew Scots, the institution of a Hebrew
university, etc.
Sources include the _Chronicles of Eri_ being a history of the
Gaal Sciot Iber, or the Irish People, translated from the original
MSS in the Phoenician dialect of the Scythian language by Roger
O'Connor (2 vols., London, 1822).
This is where Tea Tephi first appears as wife of Heremon, and
thus ancestor of the Irish and Scottish kings. It also includes the
descent of the Welsh from Anna, cousin of the Virgin Mary [m. Beli
maur]. Jupiter is Identified with Judah [thus the Frankish kings
and Charlemagne are descended from Priam, and offshoots of
Dan (= Dardanus) and Judah (= Jupiter = Cronos = Zeus)]. Thus
the Greeks are also Jews. The ancestors of the Guelphs are also
shown to be descended from Troy and from David.
Mr. Tinney, remember when I said that by your reasoning you
might as well connect any race with descent from the Jews?
Well, you should be in heaven in these books. Plenty of
discussion about the Bible, Revelations [the White Horse],
etc.
I'd like to see those Phoenician manuscripts from the Scythian.
That would be quite a historical find. Must have been brought
by Heremon or Tamar Tea Tephi.
[Please forgive me for thinking it's a load of crap, as it appears.]
Paul
CHOM...@aol.com
In a message dated 11/21/01 3:46:43 PM, rp...@uswest.net writes:
<< I found the book which gave
Archibald F. Bennet the inspiration for his chart on the descents from
Adam. It is _The Royal House of Britain: an Enduring Dynasty_ >>
I'm glad you found the reference. My household has found this thread amusing,
but loony. This ought to close the subject.
felicitations -- Rebecca
Chris & Tom Tinney, Sr.
to the case at hand. The Voyage of Bran
Son of Febal to the Land of the Living;
first edited, with translation, notes and
glossary by Kuno Meyer; mentions p. 116:
"The great seventeenth century compilation,
the Annals of the Four Masters, gathers up
all that seemed most valuable and most trust-
worthy in the older Annals to Michael O'Clery
and his fellows." He further states, "In this,
the oldest dated form, we can discern signs
of Biblical and classic influence. If the
traditions belong, in the main, to a period
anterior to the contact of Ireland with
Christian-classic culture, they have,
nevertheless, been modified and added
to as a result of that contact."
Kuno Meyer, also edited and translated
The Celtic Doctrine of Re-birth,
by Alfred Nutt. He records that in the
writings of Diodorus of Sicily, about
40 B.C., concerning the druids:
"Accordingly, at the burial of the dead,
some cast letters, addressed to their
departed relatives, upon the funeral pile,
under the belief that the dead will read
them in the next world." Reference:
Diodorus Siculus Book v. ch. 28
Also, mention is made of Pomponius Mela
who wrote a treatise on geography, done
circa A.D. 44. Speaking about the Gauls
and their druids, [and noting also that one
Julius Caesar wrote that the druids of the
area of present day France had doctrines
supposed to be derived from Britain];
concerning the Gaulish custom of burning
the dead, (also noted by Valerius Maximus
circa A.D. 20): "Business accounts and
payments of debts were passed on to the
next world . . ."
Druids had to carry on their teaching secretly.
They confused their arch enemy, Julius Caesar,
to believe their instructions were purely oral,
as well as the more recent Stewart Baldwin.
Nevertheless, LETTERS, written and read;
BUSINESS ACCOUNTS and PAYMENTS
of DEBTS suggest the Irish druidic tradition
had early written records. Heroic saga,
impressed in Irish literature, comes more
directly from provincial Irish history. It is
"almost unrepresented by the Four Masters".
If we refer again to Section VIII-- The Sons
of Mil, Irish Texts Society, Vol. XLIV,
page 33 notes "For Mil, s. Bile went a-
voyaging into Egypt, four ships' companies
strong, and he took Scota to wife, and Erimon
took her after him." As to "The Stone,
weighing over 300 pounds", I stated that
it appears of Phoenician workmanship;
thus, it more aptly applies to druidic sorcery.
Jeremiah and the daughters of Zedekiah
were in Egypt by force and the thrust of
the record continues this bondage under
mercenaries fleeing in the ships of Mil.
My reasoning connects only one Jewish
remnant in Egypt with Irish tradition, within
the correct historical context. Baruch was
a "prize of war" in every place where he
went because of his scribal capacities.
The Jewish pattern in the Irish Royalty
reveals the connective relationship, as
well as the keeping of the number of ships,
the names of "chieftains" and "servitors",
outside of the family pedigrees proper.
Kinship is the foundation of the Brehon Law.
This is similar to Jewish land holding regulations
that required a land grant to a servant to be
retained only until the servant's year of liberty;
then it reverted back to the family of the prince.
Irish Kingship includes regulations going back
to holders of the Office of High Priest in ancient
Israel. "In the eyes of the law he must be
beyond reproach (innraic), nor could he be
guilty of theft, nor could he have any physical
blemish. (5) According to this tract, there
were even minimum requirements for property
owned . . ."
http://www.clannada.org/law/seloking.html
" Linguistic evidence indicates that much of
the law has its foundation as far back as the
time of the proto-Celts (c. 1000 BCE)."
http://www.clannada.org/law/partibre.html
Serious consideration should be given to
Ezekiel and the regulations for national
festivals as it relates to ancient Irish festivals.
Reflect upon people and animals in ancient
Israelite society, intertwined by living together
in houses and on compounds. Did not Irish
herdsmen know "each head of their cattle
and, recognizing when one had strayed", exert
tremendous effort to retrieve it? Both societies
"protected their animals from rustlers, and
even against ravaging beasts". "Animals were
crucial to the survival of the clan" both in
Ireland and ancient Israel, with loss taking
away reproductive capacity.
Zedekiah means "my justice is Yahweh",
or "The Lord (is) righteousness". [Mattaniah].
Tea is listed as the daughter of Lughaidh,
the son of Ioth, ETC. One of the meanings
of Lughaidh is LIGHT or RADIANCE.
Is not the justice of Yahweh light and [truth]
radiance, similar to Lug, the god explicitly
associated with the sun in Celtic mythology,
as well as crafts, trades and commerce?
http://members.tripod.com/~roisindubh/saint.html
Lughaidh is the son of Ioth, son of Breoghan,
a son of Bratha; ancestor of Mildh. If you
remember that Zedekiah means "my justice
is Yahweh", then Bratha becomes significant:
[ judgement, gu bràth, for ever (pron. gu bràch)
"till Judgment", so Irish, Old Irish bráth,
judgment, Welsh brawd, Middle Breton breut,
Gaulish bratu-, *brâtu-; *brâ, *bera, judge,
decide . . .]
http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MB2/mb04.html#br%E0th
I wish you and yours, as well as all others on
this GEN-MEDIEVAL List a very happy
Thanksgiving. Eat some ith or ioth: corn.
http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MB2/mb23.html#ith
We have so much to be thankful for, such
as the NGS Hall of Fame memory of
Archibald F. Bennett. "In 1961 he was
elected a fellow of the American Society
of Genealogists."
http://www.ngsgenealogy.org/comhallmembers.htm#bennett
Respectfully yours,
Tom Tinney, Sr.
Genealogy and Family History Internet Web Directory
http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~vctinney/
<http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/%7Evctinney/>
"Free Coverage of the Genealogy World in a Nutshell"
Who's Who in America, Millennium Edition [54th] -
Who's Who In Genealogy and Heraldry, [both editions]
P.S. A load of crap is "bile", but this does
not relate to "Bile's son was Milesius".
http://members.tripod.com/~Halfmoon/Spain.html
It is more of a bitterness of temper, irascibility,
ill humor and spleen that reflects the DSH
proclivity for false mirth and merriment at
the expense of others on this List.
-------------------------------------------------
Paul C. Reed wrote:
>"Chris and Tom Tinney, Sr." wrote:
>
>[SNIP]
>
>[snip, snip, snip]
>
>While wading through storage last night, I found the book which gave
>Archibald F. Bennet the inspiration for his chart on the descents from