Beatrice of Vermandois?

[mike davis]

This was prompted by an earlier discussion about the Robertians.

Who was the mother of Hugh the Great [d956]?

This seems like an easy q to answer, as in 931 Hugh names his late parents
as Robert and Beatrice. Whats confusing me is that on many different
websites including wiki, it says Roberts first wife was Aelis [ref to
Europaische stamtafeln series, vol 2, 10] and his 2nd was Beatrice of
Vermandois dau of Heribert I who was the mother of Hugh the Great.

However the evidence suggests Beatrice was Roberts first wife, and Aelis of Vermandois his 2nd.

That is Robert married firstly Beatrice who was the mother of both HG
[d956] and presumably also a daughter who married Heribert II, and perhaps
HGs sister Emma as well [d934] wife of King Raoul [d936], and then Robert
married this Aelis, [although its seems her name was Adela] sometime
around or before 907.

As I understand it a number of sources say that Robert married a sister of
Heribert II without naming her and that Heribert II married a daughter of
Robert. This daughter was the mother of Heribert IIs children but her name
is also never mentioned by contemporary sources but is assumed
to be Adela like her daughter who married the count of Flanders. She was
alive in 931.

As many lines lead from these 2 women it seems important to sort this out,
not least because if the reverse is true, then it means the Capetians had
Carolingian ancestry in the Xe, something it seems chroniclers thought they
lacked until Louis VIII [or was it VI?].

Mike

[Stewart Baldwin]

This matter is discussed on the "Henry Project" pages for Robert I and Beatrix.

https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/rober101.htm
https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/beatr001.htm

Stewart Baldwin

[Peter Stewart]

On 26-Jul-22 6:42 PM, mike davis wrote:
> This was prompted by an earlier discussion about the Robertians.
>
> Who was the mother of Hugh the Great [d956]?
>
> This seems like an easy q to answer, as in 931 Hugh names his late parents
> as Robert and Beatrice. Whats confusing me is that on many different
> websites including wiki, it says Roberts first wife was Aelis [ref to
> Europaische stamtafeln series, vol 2, 10] and his 2nd was Beatrice of
> Vermandois dau of Heribert I who was the mother of Hugh the Great.
>
> However the evidence suggests Beatrice was Roberts first wife, and Aelis of Vermandois his 2nd.
>
> That is Robert married firstly Beatrice who was the mother of both HG
> [d956] and presumably also a daughter who married Heribert II, and perhaps
> HGs sister Emma as well [d934] wife of King Raoul [d936], and then Robert
> married this Aelis, [although its seems her name was Adela] sometime
> around or before 907.

This confusion may be due to contradictory assertions in Christian
Settipani's _La préhistoire des Capétiens_ (1993): on p. 389 Emma is
described as "fille de Rodbert, duc des Francs, et de Béatrix de
Vermandois", but on p. 408 Emma is placed as the second daughter "du
premier lit", whose mother is given on p. 406 as "Ne, d'origine inconnue".

> As I understand it a number of sources say that Robert married a sister of
> Heribert II without naming her and that Heribert II married a daughter of
> Robert. This daughter was the mother of Heribert IIs children but her name
> is also never mentioned by contemporary sources but is assumed
> to be Adela like her daughter who married the count of Flanders. She was
> alive in 931.
>
> As many lines lead from these 2 women it seems important to sort this out,
> not least because if the reverse is true, then it means the Capetians had
> Carolingian ancestry in the Xe, something it seems chroniclers thought they
> lacked until Louis VIII [or was it VI?].

It was Louis VI. As for Beatrix, Stewart Baldwin has provided links to
his concise discussion of the problem in Henry Project pages. A few
further points may be of interest.

First, the name Beatrix was not unexampled in this lady or exclusive to
her descendants and it does not mean "she who blesses" - these old
mistakes were unfortunately repeated by Constance Bouchard. Historians
assuming that whatever they know is all that needs to be known on any
subject can be a menace, although Bouchard usually does better than she
did on this matter.

Beatrix was the name of a Roman martyr of the fourth century whose
relics were translated with those of her brothers from the Generosa
cemetery to a new chapel of St Paul attached to the church of Santa
Bibiana in February 683 under the papacy of Leo II. The name is derived
from 'viatrix', meaning a female wayfarer. There was apparently a minor
cult of St Beatrix in the Berry region, from where Robert's wife perhaps
originated. A namesake of hers was the wife of Acfred II, viscount of
Châtellerault, in the late 10th century - this lady was almost certainly
not descended from Robert and his Beatrix, but may have been related to her.

The charter dated 26 March 931 in which Robert's son Hugo Magnus named
his mother as Beatrix also states that his allod at
Châtillon(-sur-Loire) in the pagus of Bourges had been inherited through
her ("alodum juris nostri, quem ex materna hereditate jure et legaliter
nec non quieto ordine possidere videmur, Castellionum nomine ... situm
in pago Biturigensi"). From Châtillon-sur-Loire it is roughly the same
distance, approximately 80-100 km, to Bourges (south-west), Orléans
(north-west) and Auxerre (north-east).

The charter in which her name is abbreviated as "Be." concerns
restitution by Ebbo of Déols (killed in battle 937) to Saint-Aignan
d'Orléans, paying compensation and an annual rent for the return to him
and his son until their deaths of a villa belonging to the abbey that he
had unjustly taken. This villa had been given to Saint-Aignan by Robert
for the souls of himself and his wife Beatrix along with the welfare of
their son Hugo, suggesting that she and consequently her child may have
had a family connection to the place which Ebbo of Déols later
expropriated and wanted to retain.

If speculation about the possible parentage of Robert's wife Beatrix is
compelling for some, it may be a more plausible bet to guess that she
was the sister or paternal aunt of Ebbo, the greatest lord in Berry of
his time, than to persist in cobbling her together with the Vermandois
family.

Peter Stewart



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[mike davis]

Yes this seems very clear. The trouble is that on the net, Beatrix mother of Hugo
is assumed everywhere to be the unnamed daugther of Heribert II, and this has
caused a terrible muddle.

Mike

[Peter Stewart]

Constance Bouchard wrongly thought that Robert I's wife Beatrix the
first woman recorded with this name and that it was a version of the
Carolingian Berta, which she is called in one source perhaps from the
unfamiliarity of Beatrix. A tendency to link names and persons with the
most familiar similarities/connections that spring to mind has plagued
genealogy from medieval times and is not likely to stop any time soon.
Bouchard claimed that Beatrix is derived from the past participle of the
verb 'beare' (to bless), while noting that the male form of this,
'beator', is absent from Latin sources; she considered that Beatrix was
probably a late, post-classical form. but as pointed out upthread, it is
actually a form of Viatrix that was used from the late-7th century for
the Roman saint, quite probably from a facile association with blessing.

As for the Vermandois muddle, this is now stuck fast in the dried mud of
centuries and will perhaps never be corrected. It was taken up by Du
Bouchet in the 17th century, perhaps from misunderstanding the
early-12th century chronicle of Saint-Pierre-le-Vif from Sens where
Robert is said to have married a sister of Heribert (without naming her)
who was mother to Hugo Magnus ("Habebat enim ipse Rotbertus sororem
istius Herberti in conjugio, de qua ortus est Hugo Magnus"). Robert of
Torigni (not exactly the most reliable oracle for genealogies from the
past) asserted that Hugo Magnus was born to a daughter of Heribert count
of Peronne ("natus ex filia Herberti comitis Paronne").

Although intermarriage between these two families is likely enough, a
simple misunderstanding is plausible, for instance, if the later authors
were taking their information from a document in which Robert was
referred to as 'cognatus' of Heribert, interpreted as meaning
'brother-in-law' when it could have meant his 'father-in-law' - the
latter relationship, alone, is given on the better authority of Flodoard.

Karl Ferdinand Werner noted that Hugo Magnus named his illegitimate son
(later bishop of Auxerre) Heribert; however, it is far from certain that
this bastard child was named for the father's maternal grandfather.
Christian Settipani asserted that the name of Robert I's wife Beatrix
and her filiation as a daughter of Heribert I of Vermandois were
'parfaitement assurés ainsi que l'a montré depuis K.F. Werner'. But
Werner had established only that the name Beatrix was correct, while
failing to substantiate with any credible source his argument from
assumption that she was a daughter of Heribert I of Vermandois. For
evidence that Robert I married twice he relied on the highly dubious
notion that 'germana' used alternately with 'soror' in an act of the
chapter of Saint-Martin de Tours must have meant a paternal half-sister
as opposed to a full sibling of Robert's son Hugo Magnus.

However, examples of the same variation of terms for full siblings can
be found in diplomatic from Touraine, for instance in the undated
foundation charter of Saint-Martin-du-Vieux-Bellême priory: "Odo quoque,
regis Francorum Henrici germanus ... Odo, frater regis Henrici" - Eudes
was undoubtedly the full-brother of King Henri I. There is no solid
evidence - or for that matter any good circumstantial reason from
supposed comparative ages - to hold that Emma was other than a full
sibling to Hugo Magnus, and to the wife of Heribert I of Vermandois.

[Peter Stewart]

Make that "to the wife of Heribert II of Vermandois" - and, earlier in
the post above, that "Robert was referred to as 'cognatus' of Heribert
II, interpreted as meaning 'brother-in-law' when it could have meant his
'father-in-law'".

[mike davis]

Many people rely on the tables in Europaisches Studien, and that has enshrined Beatrix as dau of Heribert I
[the ref from wiki is Vol 2, tafel10/11] as well as wiki. Is it correct to say that as neither of Roberts wives
appear in his existing charters and documents, they both must have died by the time he was elected king
in 922? Some seem to believe that Beatrix/Beatrice was still alive in 931, because the charter where she
is named by her son only uses quondam for Robert I.

Clearly Hugo was not a child in 922 as he was offered the crown and had been married since c914,
and this seems to have led a number of historiansc into a further muddle, that of the identity of
the Countess Adela who appears with Robert in 907. I dunno if Settipani is alone in this, but making this
Countess Adela the daugther rather than the 2nd wife of Robert I, has created a 2nd muddle.

Mike

[Peter Stewart]

There is only one existing act of Robert I's reign, and it's hardly
surprising that his wife does not occur in a single document - assuming
he had one living at the the time (January 923). As for Beatrice not
being qualified as 'quondam', her death would not have been a matter of
official concern in 931 if she had died before Robert occurred along
with Adela in 907. Hugo called his father 'Robertus quondam rex',
probably meaning 'Robert the former king' rather than 'the deceased king
Robert'. He called his mother simply 'domina Beatrix', not 'Beatrix
regina' as she would have been if surviving until Robert had become king
in 922.

> Clearly Hugo was not a child in 922 as he was offered the crown and had been married since c914,
> and this seems to have led a number of historiansc into a further muddle, that of the identity of
> the Countess Adela who appears with Robert in 907. I dunno if Settipani is alone in this, but making this
> Countess Adela the daugther rather than the 2nd wife of Robert I, has created a 2nd muddle.

The wording of Charles the Simple's charter dated 907 to me implies
clearly enough that Robert and Adela were husband and wife at that time:
"interventu quorundam principum vicinius nobis assistentium, Frederune˛
videlicet conjugis carissime necnon et dilecte Gisle abbatisse, atque
venerandi comitis Rotberti et Adele comitisse". I can't think of a royal
act in which a father and daughter are named together in a similar way.
The idea that this was the absent Heribert's wife acting on his behalf
is a rather strained rationalisation.

Hugo may have been ca 25 at the time of the battle of Soissons in June
923 when his father was killed: Richer represented that he had barely
attained maturity at that time and did not take part in the fighting but
was conducted onto the field afterwards by Heribert of Vermandois.
However, Flodoard named Hugo along with Heribert as responsible for the
victory over Charles on the day. According to Flodoard he conducted
important affairs and had the charge of 2,000 men for his father, who
summoned him for consultation in April/May 922. Opposition led by Hugo
was seen as a threat by Charles the Simple in the same year. This along
with his marriage ca 914 seems consistent with his birth by ca 900. If
Beatrix was dead before 907 (when I think Robert was married to Adela)
Hugo may not have known her beyond his infancy.

Peter Stewart



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