Re: Daughter of the English King: Wife of William de Burgh (died 1206), lord ...

[WJho...@aol.com]

In a message dated 1/4/2006 1:22:40 AM Pacific Standard Time,
royala...@msn.com writes:

He has since kindly forwarded to
me a page from the book, Analecta Hibernica, No. 18, The O'Clery Book
of Genealogies (Irish MSS. Comm.), edited by Seamus Pender, published
in 1951.

Could you indicate some date for this MSS?
Thanks
Will Johnson

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Will ~

I have no idea about the date of the Burgh manuscript. Someone
familiar with the O'Clery Book of Genealogies will have to answer this
question.

DR

[pj.evans]

http://members.aol.com/lochlan/gensourc.htm

Ms. 23 D 17 Royal Irish Academy

Thought to have been written by Cu Choigcriche O Cleirigh, one of the
Four Masters, head of the Tirconnell sept of the O'Clerys (O'Donovan);
held the lands of Coobeg and Doughill in the barony of Boylagh and
Banagh, Co. Donegal, from 1631 to 1632, at which date he was
dispossessed of his lands and removed, with other Tirconnell families,
to Ballcroy, Erris barony, Co. Mayo, under the guidance of Rory
O'Donnell, son of Col. Manus O'Donnell, slain at Benburb, 1646.

Carried with him his books, his most treasured possession, and later
bequeathed them to his sons, Diarmait and Sean. Cu Choigcriche's son
Diarmait had a son Cairbre, who removed to the parish of Drung, Co.
Cavan, and was the father of Cosnahach (1693-1759). His only son
Patrick O'Clery had six sons, one of whom, John O'Clery, removed to
Dublin in 1817 bringing with him the Leabhar Gabhala, the Book of
Genealogies, the Life of Hugh Roe O'Donnell and the Topographical Poems
of O'Dugan and O'Heerin, all in the handwriting of his ancestor, Cu
Choigcriche.

Later briefly in the possession of Mr. Patrick Lynch (d. 1817) and
Patrick Vincent FitzPatrick of Capel St. Dublin, bookseller. Purchased
by the Royal Irish Academy at the auction sale of Edward O'Reilly's
Books and Irish MSS., Nov. 1830 (6pds).

Printed in the Analecta Hibernica, No. 18,
1951
Abstracted from notes by the editor,
Seamus Pender, M.A.

Isn't Google wonderful - thirty seconds flat.

[WJho...@aol.com]

In a message dated 1/4/06 1:52:42 PM Pacific Standard Time,
pj.eva...@usa.net writes:

<< Thought to have been written by Cu Choigcriche O Cleirigh, one of the Four
Masters, head of the Tirconnell sept of the O'Clerys (O'Donovan); held the
lands of Coobeg and Doughill in the barony of Boylagh and Banagh, Co. Donegal,
from 1631 to 1632, at which date he was dispossessed of his lands >>

So even further removed from the date of the *event*.
My opinion would be that this does not add anything to the argument, being so
many centuries after.
But I do note, that there are so many gaps in the Burgh ancestry, that this
particular argument is not the only source for finding kinship between the
royal family and the Burghs.

Will Johnson

[Jwc...@aol.com]

Dear Lee,
Aside from Hubert de Burgh, Earl of Kent can think of only
two persons who had rapid, non Church related rises in England off hand in the
twelveth century these are William Longespee , jure uxoris Earl of Salisbury
and William Marshal, jure uxoris Earl of Pembroke. Note that William Marshal`s
mother Sibyl was a close relative (? aunt) of Ela , Countess of Salisbury.
note too that Domnall Mor O`Brien`s daughter`s mother was a daughter of Dermait
MacMurrough, King of Leinster and so a niece of Eva (MacMurrough) de Clare,
making the Marshal descendants cousins of the de Burghs.
Sincerely.
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Paula ~

Thank you for posting this information. Much appreciated.

DR

[CED]

Dear James,

To put a finer point on Hubert de Burgh's rapid rise to a position of
influence, he was, according to most who have studued him, born about
1175, and by 1200, he was heading a mission to the king of Portugal,
sent to negotiate a marriage between King John and a daughter of that
king. Would a nobody from no place, aged about 25, be sent on such a
mission?

CED

[Jwc...@aol.com]

Dear John and Douglas,
Approximately what date did William de
Burgh marry the daughter of the Saxon King ? Henry "the Young King" was born
in 1155 and Richard I in 1157 who would preclude her birth being before say
1170 to 1175 and her marriage to before say 1185. So, yes, Will it appears to
have been Henry II who would have had to have been her father.
Sincerely,

[WJho...@aol.com]

In a message dated 1/5/06 4:43:23 PM Pacific Standard Time, Jwc...@aol.com
writes:

<< Approximately what date did William
de
Burgh marry the daughter of the Saxon King ? Henry "the Young King" was born
in 1155 and Richard I in 1157 who would preclude her birth being before say
1170 to 1175 and her marriage to before say 1185. So, yes, Will it appears
to
have been Henry II who would have had to have been her father. >>

An additional assertion could be that, although Richard's only other known
bastard is acknowledged in at least one source, no mention is made of any
daughter in any source I'm aware of, although these would have been the only two
children Richard ever had.

Henry II on the other hand, had at least ten children, including at least one
bastard, and evidently several mistresses.

Chronology would be tight for a daughter of Richard I to have married a
Lord *in* Ireland (added emphasis) Perhaps a chronology of Richard's whereabouts
would show that it's more likely that Henry was her father.

Richard did not rule England *from* England which is another potential nail
in this coffin. Why would a father, albeit illegitimate, allow his daughter to
marry so far away from the place he loved (and lived at) the most? The
distance from London to Ireland isn't nearly as far. Also why use the marriage to
cement a tie to an obscure Irish chieftain instead of a more useful French one
? Esp. as the French king was a little pissed off that Richard wouldn't
follow through on his marriage to Alice and in fact has the marriage annuled in
Mar 1190. This had to be *after* Isabella was already married. Alice was the
half-sister of the current French King, so why not marry Isabella off to the
kings little son to mollify him? or even one of his half-nephews like Henry
1166- later King of Jerusalem?

However, allowing Isabella to be a daughter of Henry II makes perfect sense.
Marrying her to a newly created lord in Ireland would strengthen ties to that
country which were basically non-existent. None of Henry's other children
married into Ireland. Why not throw them a bone and let them has Isabella ?

And then there is the question of Richard's ability to father a child in the
first place. He is not known for great affection toward women in general.
Maybe he was turned-off by his father's many affairs, or many he was homosexual,
but the whole series of issues makes it more likely her father would be Henry
II.
Will Johnson

[Tony Hoskins]

"And then there is the question of Richard's ability to father a child
in the
first place. He is not known for great affection toward women in
general.

Maybe he was turned-off by his father's many affairs, or maybe] he was
homosexual."

A man's being homosexual is no an impediment to his fathering children.
Though history, we have abundant examples of homosexual fathers with
numerous children: Edward II, Lord Hervey, Edward II, the 7th Earl
Beauchamp, to name a few. And in our day, how 'bout "Brokeback
Mountain", not to mention so many people one knows?!

Tony Hoskins
Santa Rosa, California

>>> <WJho...@aol.com> 01/05/06 05:32PM >>>