Ryurik of Old Ladoga and Novgorod had Finnic patriline ?
M.Sjostrom
The y DNA results published in
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mozhayski/teksty/ydna.html
display that a prince Lobanov-Rostovsky, a prince Shahovskoi, a Solomin, a Mozharovsky, and two current Russian princes descending from the Starodub line,
belong to essentially the very same y DNA, which is under the haplotype now coded as N1c1a but mentioned as N3a1 in the table.
This haplotype is seemingly Finnic-Ugric, and shared by a lot of men in Finland and with Finnish roots.
Ryurik and his closest had undoubtedly Norse names, not Finnic. But he is often thought to have come from seashore of Roslagen, itself a place near Finland and possibly earlier inhabited by Finnic tribe(s) before german-originated Norse took over at the place.
M.Sjostrom
markers in Finnic-originated Rurikid y-DNA:
Mozharovsky N3a1 14 23 15 11 11 14 11 12 10 13 14 29 17 09 09 11 12 25 14 19 28 14 14 15 15 11 11 18 20 14 15 17 20 34 35 13 10
Puzyna N3a1 14 23 14 10 11 13 11 12 11 13 14 29 18 09 09 11 12 25 14 19 28 14 14 14 14 11 11 18 20 14 15 16 19 34 34 15 09
a Gagarin: N3a1 14 23 14 11 11 13 11 12 10 14 14 30 18 09 09 11 12 25 14 19 29 14 14 15 15
another Gagarin: N3a1 14 23 14 11 11 13 11 12 10 14 14 30 18 09 09 11 12 25 14 19 29 14 15 15 15
Lobanov-Rostovsky N3a1 14 23 - 11 12 13 - - 10 14 14 30 - - - - - - 14 19 - - - - - - 12 - - 14 - - - - - - 10
Shahovskoi N3a1 14 23 14 11 11 13 - - 10 14 14 31 - - - - - - 14 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 10
Solomin N3a1 14 23 14 11 11 13 11 12 10 14 14 30 18 10 10 11 12 25 14 19 29 15 15 15 15 11 11 18 20 14 15 18 19 36 36 12 10
M.Sjostrom
M.Sjostrom
markers in Finnic-originated Rurikid y-DNA:
Mozharovsky
N3a1 14 23 15 11 11 14 11 12 10 13 14 29 17 09 09 11 12 25 14 19 28 14 14 15 15 11 11 18 20 14 15 17 20 34 35 13 10
Puzyna
N3a1 14 23 14 10 11 13 11 12 11 13 14 29 18 09 09 11 12 25 14 19 28 14 14 14 14 11 11 18 20 14 15 16 19 34 34 15 09
a Gagarin
N3a1 14 23 14 11 11 13 11 12 10 14 14 30 18 09 09 11 12 25 14 19 29 14 14 15 15
another Gagarin
N3a1 14 23 14 11 11 13 11 12 10 14 14 30 18 09 09 11 12 25 14 19 29 14 15 15 15
Lobanov-Rostovsky
N3a1 14 23 -- 11 12 13 -- -- 10 14 14 30 -- -- -- -- -- -- 14 19 -- -- -- -- -- -- 12 -- -- 14 -- -- -- -- -- -- 10
Shahovskoi
N3a1 14 23 14 11 11 13 -- -- 10 14 14 31 -- -- -- -- -- -- 14 -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- 10
M.Sjostrom
the six, or five, Ryurikids tested, according to traditional genealogy come from the family tree which branches in following spots:
gen I Yaroslav Vladimirovich, monarch of Novgorod and Kiev, bc 980s
sons included:
gen II Svyatoslav Yaroslavich, bc 1027, ancestor of the Chernigov - founder of the lineage which produced the Puzyna
gen II Vsevolod Yaroslavich, bc 1030, ancestor of big-russian lines
son:
gen III Vladimir Vsevolodich 'the Monomakh', b 1053
sons included:
gen IV Mstislav Vladimirich, b 1076 - his son gen V Rostislav of Smolensk had son gen VI David of Smolensk, whose son gen VII Mstislav of Smolensk had son gen VIII Rostislav of Smolensk bc 1210s, whose two sons gen IX Gleb of Smolensk (bc 1230s) and gen IX Fedor of Yaroslavl (bc 1238) started the two branches which led, respectively, probably to the Mozharovsky and certainly to the Solomin
gen IV Yuriy Vladimirich 'Dolgorukiy', bc 1090s, George I of Russia,
whose youngest son was:
gen V, Vsevolod Yuriyevich 'the Great Nest', b 1154;
whose sons included:
gen VI, Kostantin Vsevolodich, prince of Rostov, bc 1186, who should be ancestor of the Lobanov-Rostovski sample
gen VI, seemingy the youngest, Ivan Vsevolodich 'Kasha', prince of Starodub, b 1198, who should be ancestor of the two Gagarin samples
---
the branchings of the samples in table above, seemingly branched in II, IV, VI and IX generation.
Which are, generally, around 20-29 generations earlier than samples.
(except the two Gagarins are much closer kinsmen of each other, practically only one sample in this view)
This set of results surprises me a bit: so many mutations in one little millennium; so many mutations in just about 20 generations. wow.
M.Sjostrom
sorry,
Solomin are from the Smolensk branch, as could also Mozharovskiy be.
Yaroslavl branch (separate since IX generation, about twenty generations ago) produced Shahovski.
thus, Solomin and Mozharovski should be closer with each others than with anybody else.
If they are not, then Mozharovsky family legends probably were incorrect.
M.Sjostrom
M.Sjostrom
AND THUS, if the samples are arranged in order of their branchings, they would be:
* markers in Finnic-originated Rurikid y-DNA:
Puzyna
N3a1 14 23 14 10 11 13 11 12 11 13 14 29 18 09 09 11 12 25 14 19 28 14 14 14 14 11 11 18 20 14 15 16 19 34 34 15 09
a Gagarin
N3a1 14 23 14 11 11 13 11 12 10 14 14 30 18 09 09 11 12 25 14 19 29 14 14 15 15
another Gagarin
N3a1 14 23 14 11 11 13 11 12 10 14 14 30 18 09 09 11 12 25 14 19 29 14 15 15 15
Lobanov-Rostovsky
N3a1 14 23 --- 11 12 13 --- --- 10 14 14 30 --- --- --- --- --- --- 14 19 --- --- --- --- --- --- 12 --- --- 14 --- --- --- --- --- --- 10
Shahovskoi
N3a1 14 23 14 11 11 13 --- --- 10 14 14 31 --- --- --- --- --- --- 14 --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- 10
Solomin
N3a1 14 23 14 11 11 13 11 12 10 14 14 30 18 10 10 11 12 25 14 19 29 15 15 15 15 11 11 18 20 14 15 18 19 36 36 12 10
Mozharovsky
makambo
(I don't know your first name)
I am "hot"-linked by my YDNA - to 2 Polish families -- HOSPODY &
KLOSOWSKI..but have no idea how. This goes back 700 - 1000 yrs. Am
trying hard to solve this odd mystery
Those 2 guys have a documented "line" virtually back to 1015
AD...linked with MAGNUS/MAGNUSKI & the very famous SKARBEK clan (who
were also of some unknown Viking descent). All noble families.
Maybe it's one of these routes:
(a) via AUDO/AUDOEN--Awdanieks. Audo was a Norman knight in the early
1000's who lived in Poland with a band of knghts (as per Gallus
Anonimus)
(b) a (Viking) ancestor of the Hohenstaufen progenitor - Frederick I
Barbarossa who invaded Poland in 1256?--lnked to Berbancon?-Brabant,
Bourbon
(c) RYURIK & some kind of alleged link to the name BARBASH/BARBASCH---
which is basically Barbarossa --see above--Is this a real linkage??
(d) via HRING (Anulo) the Viking - - - with whom I have lots of "hits"
via other medieval links down through various French/British lines....
I was just wondering if all this RYURIK DNA stuff is on YSEARCH. Then
i can run some automatic cross-matches.
Looks like you're running some interesting stuff there!!
Gerry Coldham
London UK
==========================
WJho...@aol.com
gjco...@yahoo.com writes:
> I am "hot"-linked by my YDNA - to 2 Polish families -- HOSPODY &
> KLOSOWSKI..but have no idea how. This goes back 700 - 1000 yrs. Am
> trying hard to solve this odd mystery>>>
----------
I'm curious how you can be certain that this goes back 700 to 1000 years.
Will Johnson
**************
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M.Sjostrom
you ask: "are these results in YSEARCH"
I answer:
As far as I know, this project is among Familytree DNA projects.
Moreover, I have heard projectleaders occasionally complain that those 'hosts' of DNA projects are jealous of their 'stall', and by contracts do not allow obtained results to be used/published in sites of competing hosts. Thus I have a suspicion that, if these are two different hosts, these results literally are not allowed to use in the other.
All such exclusivism of course is a pity.
Still, you have the published marker values of the y-DNA, and you should compare them with what means you are allowed to use in making comparison.