Dafydd Goch

[ryandav...@gmail.com]

I was wondering if anyone had any information on the likeyhood that Dafydd Goch was the illegitimate son of Dafydd ap Gruffydd brother of Llewellyn the Last.

I've always been under the impression that he was. I believe Bartrum always listed his decent as true while, for example, not listing the suggestions that Dafydd ap Llewellyn had a son, or other various doubtful children for the princes of Gwynedd.

Recently I've seen an increasing amount of doubt, and even flat out denials on the basis of “new research” even on official government websites all based on just one article by Darrell Wolcott on Ancient Wales Studies.

The article in question is here: www.ancientwalesstudies.org/id116.html

I've done a bit of digging and I see that Wolcott isn't universally thought of as an expert – a retired salesman based in the US who uses “we” when he means “I”, presenting hypothesis as fact and running to extreme conclusions without adequate evidence, setting up “Ancient Wales Studies” to give his opinions more perceived weight, and dismissive of Bartrum altogether were some opinions I found.

The article certainly sounds more than plausible, but then again I'm left not really knowing whether his sources are better than Bartrum's, knowing that Edward I left alive a brother of Dafydd and Llewellyn (which did end up being a problem down the line with Owain Lawgoch- although I think Wolcott disputes his heritage too... and Owain Glyndwr... and Cynan ab Iago... and Sir John Wynn). Plus I thought that most "coat of arms" in Wales at that time were more like banners than "English" coat of arms that got transferred to the oldest son, and most of the coat of arms we have for Welsh princes were given retrospectively?

I end up thinking that Darrell Wolcott's opinion that Dafydd Goch isn't the illegitimate son of Dafydd ap Gruffydd is either painstakingly obvious and brilliant at the same time or a load of bunkum with no real evidence whatsoever.

Which is it?

[Hans Vogels]

Something is wrong with the given link. The mentioned website can not be reached.

Hans Vogels



Op zaterdag 20 augustus 2016 12:39:37 UTC+2 schreef ryandav...@gmail.com:

[ryandav...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, August 21, 2016 at 9:02:41 AM UTC+1, Hans Vogels wrote:
> Something is wrong with the given link. The mentioned website can not be reached.
>
> Hans Vogels

His website has been going down fairly regularly recently.

Try the cached version here: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:H92lp5hHZoYJ:www.ancientwalesstudies.org/id116.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

[taf]

On Saturday, August 20, 2016 at 3:39:37 AM UTC-7, ryandav...@gmail.com wrote:
> I was wondering if anyone had any information on the likeyhood that Dafydd
> Goch was the illegitimate son of Dafydd ap Gruffydd brother of Llewellyn
> the Last.
>
> I've always been under the impression that he was. I believe Bartrum
> always listed his decent as true while, for example, not listing the
> suggestions that Dafydd ap Llewellyn had a son, or other various doubtful
> children for the princes of Gwynedd.

This is an imperfect characterization of what Bartrum was doing. He was not attempting to distinguish true from false. He was compiling (and to an extent trying to harmonize) the authentic ancient Welsh genealogical tradition - authentic in the sense that it is what was in the old Welsh pedigrees, not that it represents authentic biological descent. Thus his inclusion of this information only serves to show that the early Welsh genealogist/historians believed it, not that Bartrum himself did.

> Recently I've seen an increasing amount of doubt, and even flat out
> denials on the basis of “new research” even on official government
> websites all based on just one article by Darrell Wolcott on Ancient Wales
> Studies.
>
> The article in question is here: www.ancientwalesstudies.org/id116.html
>
> I've done a bit of digging and I see that Wolcott isn't universally
> thought of as an expert – a retired salesman based in the US who uses “we”
> when he means “I”,

There are entire fields of study where this affectation is the norm (most biological sciences), so if it is a character flaw it is not one fatal to the argument.

> presenting hypothesis as fact and running to extreme conclusions without
> adequate evidence, setting up “Ancient Wales Studies” to give his opinions
> more perceived weight, and dismissive of Bartrum altogether were some
> opinions I found.

Rather than addressing the man, let's address the argument.

> The article certainly sounds more than plausible, but then again I'm left
> not really knowing whether his sources are better than Bartrum's, knowing
> that Edward I left alive a brother of Dafydd and Llewellyn

This is an argument that is not strong. Edward was not a homicidal maniac, and in general, if you paid your taxes, went overboard to show your loyalty to royal authority, and stayed out of local politics (and managed not to have the locals latch onto you against your will), you just might have escaped with your head still in close proximity to your shoulders, no matter who your father was.

> Plus I thought that most "coat of arms" in Wales at that time were more
> like banners than "English" coat of arms that got transferred to the
> oldest son, and most of the coat of arms we have for Welsh princes were
> given retrospectively?

Both of these are correct, to some extent, but the situation was evolving, and could while it is not a definitive indication of descent, it could represent what was thought to be the descent at the time the arms were adopted/retroactively assigned.

> I end up thinking that Darrell Wolcott's opinion that Dafydd Goch isn't
> the illegitimate son of Dafydd ap Gruffydd is either painstakingly obvious
> and brilliant at the same time or a load of bunkum with no real evidence
> whatsoever.
>
> Which is it?

Part of the problem is that there is no real evidence - full stop. Thus both reconstructions are without real evidence. What it comes down to is the question he raises at the start. Is there any direct testimony that Dafydd Goch was illegitimate son of THE Dafydd ap Gruffydd, or is this placement entirely due to the correlation of names in the pedigree. Admittedly the chances of four consecutive coincident names is unlikely, but not impossible. Coupled with the land inheritance and to a lesser extent the heraldry, I think he has raised a question worth consideration.

taf

[Hans Vogels]

Thank you, it works.
Interesting article.

Op maandag 22 augustus 2016 11:42:57 UTC+2 schreef ryandav...@gmail.com: