Llywelyn ap Iowerth's daughter, Margaret Braose (later Clifford)
Dcrdcr4
who married (lst) John de Brewes (or de Braose), and (2nd) Walter de Clifford.
She died in 1263. She was mentioned in a recent posting on the ancestry of
Olive Welby.
To date, Margaret's maternity has been uncertain. However, research on my part
suggests that Margaret was the daughter of Llywelyn's second wife, NN, who was
the daughter of the Lord of the Isles. This marriage was eventually voided due
to Llywelyn's earlier marriage to a hitherto unknown sister of Ranulph, Earl of
Chester. Llywelyn's first two marriages have been pretty much overlooked in
the literature. There were no surviving children born to the first marriage.
Eventually Prince Llywelyn married Joan, illegitimate daughter of King John of
England. By that marriage, Llywelyn had four identifiable children, David
(his son and heir), Ellen or Helen, Gladys Dhu, and Susanna. The daughter
Gladys is often thought to have been illegitimate. However, her descendants,
the Mortimers, claimed to be the lineal heirs of Prince Llywelyn, following the
failure of her brother, David, to leave legitimate issue. As such, one can
only conclude that Gladys was legitimate, being the oldest surviving daughter
of Llywelyn and Joan to leave issue.
At some point, I hope to publish an article on Prince Llywellyn's marriages and
his legitimate children, as well as identifying his wife, Joan's mother, the
hitherto unidentified "Queen Clementia."
All for now. Best to you always. Douglas Richardson
William G. Hall
>Eventually Prince Llywelyn married Joan, illegitimate daughter of King John of
England. <
Question; Has it been proven, that Agatha De Ferrers was Joan's mother?
Thank you
Bill
John Carmi Parsons
Tewkesbury Priory, Joan's mother was named Clemence--a rather unusual name
in England at that period, which I think may suggest that Joan's mother was
French.
Joan was declared legitimate by papal letters of 122#, which make it clear
that Joan was born at a time when both John and Joan's mother were single,
that is, before 1189 when John married Isabella of Gloucester. This too
might point to a continental birth for Joan, as John spent a good deal of
time in Normandy and Poitou before Henry II died and John's marriage,
coupled with Richard I's beneficence, first gave John substantial English
interests.
We know, furthermore, that when Joan's marriage to Llywelyn of Wales was
arranged in 1204/05, she had to be brought from Normandy to England for her
wedding; the order for her expenses on the journey to be paid from the
Exchequer exists on the Patent Rolls for John's reign. It is not easy to
find a convincing explanation for Joan's presence in Normandy unless she
was born and had grown up there. John was never a doting father to any of
his children, including those by his queen, and it is unlikely that he
would ever have gone to the trouble of sending Joan to Normandy from England
had she been born in the latter. We do not hear that he did anything of that
nature for/with any of his other OOW children.
In sum I am inclined to believe that Joan's mother, Clemence, was Norman
or Poitevin. The tradition that her mother was Agatha Ferrers seems to be
of later date; I believe the earliest authority I have seen for it is Dugdale,
though Dugdale might have taken it from a herald's pedigree.
John Parsons