John Dinham (d. 1428) and his first wife, Elen [Montagu ?]

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John Ravilious

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Feb 21, 2004, 2:16:28 PM2/21/04
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Saturday, 21 February, 2004

Hello All,

In pursuing additional documentation re: the Fissacre family on
the PRO
site, I found a great deal of material concerning the Dinham family in
the
"Arundell of Lanherne" files. In particular, a series of documents
are given
concerning John de Dinham and his steward re: expenses, travel & c.,
as follows
at the end of this message. Of particular interest are references to
stops at
Warblington, co. Hants., when en route to/from London. In particular,
the
last item given at the end of this group - AR 37/56/1 - refers to the

" Expenses of John de Dynham de Hertilond going to Warblington to
fetch
his wife (ad quer' uxorem &c.)."

It is clear this refers to the John Dinham who d. in 1428 (who m.
firstly,
Elen ________). My understanding is that Warblington, Hants. was held
by the
Montagu/Montacute family at this point. Even though the presence of
'Lady
Dinham' at Warblington does not prove anything in and of itself, the
possibility of
her being a young relation of the lord of that manor is intriguing.
The fact
that we find the steward of Lord Dinham at Warblington on more than
one
occasion or trip seems to indicate a connection closer than mere use
of a
way-station.

~ Of some possible special interest, I understand that
Warblington came
to John de Montagu by marriage to Margaret de Monthermer.
There is a
daughter Alianor/Eleanor de Montagu/Montacute of this
marriage, likely
born say 1358-1370, who may well be the 'Ellen' who was the
first wife
of John Dinham.

The Monthermers were significant landholders in Devon (from a
grant to
Ralph de Monthermer, 2nd husband of Joan of Acre), which provides a
basis for
some close social contact with the Dinhams. The chronology for this
connection
works well - I note that John de Montagu, 2nd Earl of Salisbury, was
b. ca.
1351, and married his first wife before 4 May 1383, so a sister of
this John
marrying John de Dinham (b. ca. 1359/60) ca. 1383 or before, such as
the Eleanor
mentioned above, would be a good 'fit'.

Cheers,

John *


NOTE: references to 'Lady Dinham' and her location are capitalized
below, as are references to Warblington.

______________________________________________


Reference: AR/37/45
Creation dates: 1383-84


Scope and Content
(7 Ric II)

Account roll

[Receiver of John de Dynham]

membrane.1. Expenses of John de Baucomb going from Carswyll to
Ouerourton and
then to London, while there, and returning, on various business and
purchases
of John de Dynham, after 29th Aug 1383.

Starting Wednesday 2nd Sep 1383; route detailed; via Wallop; nothing
when at
Wallop, Ouerourton, Stoke Meoles.

[Dorse] Purchase of necessaries of the lord and lady in London
[detailed];
include parchment and paper, exotic foods, a pair of knives for the
lady.

Membrane.2. [French] Bond of John de Dynham, knight, to William Kyng,
citizen
of London, for drapery [specified]; 26th Sep 1383.

Membrane.3. [French] Bond of John de Dynham, knight, to Richard Guy,
mercer,
of London, for cloth goods [specified]; 23rd Sep 1383.

Membrane.4. [French] Bond of John de Dynham, knight, to Richard Guy,
mercer,
of London, for cloth goods [specified]; 13th Mar 1383.

[Dorse] Memorandum of payments and debts to Richard Gy.

Membrane.5. [French] Bond of John de Dynham, knight, to Richard
Loxleie,
grocer ('spicer'), of London, for foods [specified]; 29th Nov 1383.

Membrane.6. [French] Bond of John de Dynham, knight, to William Kyng,
citizen
of London, for drapery [specified]; 26th Sep 1383.

Membrane.7. [French] Bond of John de Dynham, knight, to Richard
Loxleie,
grocer ('spicer'), of London, for foods [specificed]; 'Saturday 29th
Nov'
(Saturday the eve of St Andrew) 1383.

mm.8-9. [French] Bonds of John de Dynham to Richard Gy, mercer, of
London,
for cloth goods [specified]; 9th Oct 1383.

[Dorses] Further purchases from the same.

Membrane.10. [French] Bond of John de Dynham junior to Richard Gy,
mercer, of
London, for cloth goods [specified]; 21st Jul 1382.

Membrane.11. [French] List of payments made to John Bourwell cloth
goods and
making of garments 'pur madame'.

Membrane.12. [French] Bond of John de Dynham, knight, to John
Tytesbery,
skinner, of London, for goods [specified]; 14th Sep 1384. Good seal.

Membrane.13. [French] Bond of John de Dynham, knight, to Richard Gy,
mercer,
of London, for £9 19s 9d; John de Baucomb as pledge for payment; part
of seal.

Membrane.14. Expenses of John de Baucomb going to London on business
of John
de Dynham before 2nd Feb [1383 or 1384?]. Route detailed; via
WARBLINGTON and
Wallop. Purchases and payments for the lord; include 2 pewter linings
for
putting into silver salt-cellars because of salt corrosion (2 cofrinis
de peauter
ad ponend' in salsar' argent' propter coroseam salis).

Carswyll [= Kingskerswell, Devon] Ouerourton [probably = Over Worton,
Oxfordshire]

_______________________________________________________________


Reference: AR/37/46
Creation dates: 1384-85
Language: French


Scope and Content
(8 Ric II)

Account roll

External steward (sen' foren') of Sir John de Dynham

Account of Edmund ('Esmound') Beket, external steward (sen' foren') of
Sir
John de Dynham, on his journey from Carswill to London, while there,
and
returning.

Receipts (including from John de Baucomb at WARBLYNGTON); details of
the
journey; expenses in London (mainly at the inn);

[Dorse] purchases of the lord during the same time.

Attached schedule gives details of expenses on the journey (horses,
accommodation, etc.) at various places.

Carswill [= Kingskerswell, Devon]

_____________________________________________________________


Reference: AR/37/47
Creation dates: 1386, Jan


Scope and Content
(9 Ric II)

Account roll

[Receiver of John de Dynham]

Expenses of John de Baucomb on business of John de Dynham, going from
Devon
to London, payments, and various purchases, immediately after
Epiphany, 9 Ric
II.

Details of journey, including 6d for 2 lads (valett') from Exeter or
Cryket
to Herpeford, for fear of thieves, and 1 man from Cryket to Bokelond,
and in
Exeter 1 lad from Bokelond to Wallop for the same reason.

Business at Stoke Mulys.

Entertaining Thomas Nottecomb to dinner in London.

Inquiring after John Radeston in Ilemynstr' and Crokerne.

Expenses of John de B. from Cars' to Hertilaund after 22nd Feb to
survey
wreck of sea, and other journeys in Devon and Cornwall.

Expenses of John de B. at Exeter and Wells.

Expenses of John de B. at Barnestapele to speak with men there
concerning
wreck of sea at Hertilaund.

Expenses of John de B. on journeys to Exeter and Launceston.

Purchases and payments [specified].

Cars' [= Kingskerswell, Devon]


Related Material

The wreck surveyed at Hartland is presumably that described in detail
in
Cornwall Record Office Cornwall Record Office AR/15/2.

____________________________________________________________________


Reference: AR/37/48
Creation dates: [1386]


Scope and Content
(After Palm Sunday, 9 [Ric II])

Account roll

[Receiver of John de Dynham]

Expenses of John de Baucomb going from Devon to London on business of
John de
Dynham to make various payments and to make suit against Preterwill
for
Argall (ad sectam fac' contra Preterwill pro Argall).

Details of journey, including speaking with the king's escheator at
Welles;
via Stoke, Ouerton and Oxford; ferry at Goryng; arrival in London on
25th Nov
[1385?].

Payments made during the same period; including £10 paid to George
Rouwedon
for money lent to the lord in London on 15th Apr 1386 (Palm Sunday 9
[Ric II]);
purchases for the lady.

Ouerton [probably = Over Worton, Oxfordshire]

___________________________________________________________________


Reference: AR/37/49
Creation dates: 1386, spring


Scope and Content
(After Easter, 9 [Ric II])

Account roll

[Receiver of John de Dynham]

Expenses of John de B. [= John de Baucomb] after Easter, 9th year [of
Ric
II], on various business of the lord.

Business at Exeter, Wellyngton; payment to T. Nottecomb, the lord's
attorney,
including for 3 briefs for Hugh Weston and men of Hertilaund who
removed
wreck.

Attached schedule gives further details of payments to Thomas
Nottecomb and
others.

__________________________________________________________________


Reference: AR/37/50
Creation dates: 1386, May


Scope and Content
(9 Ric II)

Account roll

[Steward of John de Dynham]

View of account of Edmund (Ed') Beket concerning various receipts and
expense
on the lord's business during his voyage to Spain from 4th to 31st May
1386.

Receipts (40d and 53s 4d before departing); purchase of necessaries
for the
lord's equipment (various cloths, specified); expenses (including
costs at
Plympton and Plymmouth, keep of horses); payments (26s 8d to the
blacksmith as
part payment of his fee for the journey); total expenses £8 4s 9 1/2d.

[Dorse] Payments to various servants [specified].

___________________________________________________________________


Reference: AR/37/51
Creation dates: 1387, Hilary term


Scope and Content
(10 Ric II)

Account roll

[Receiver of John de Dynham]

Expenses and payments on the lord's business, incurred by John de
Baucomb [in
the suit] for Argall against Pretwill, in the king's court.

Journey to London from Wallop; includes 7d for wine in the 'villa' of
[Thomas] Reymond, the lord's attorney.

____________________________________________________________________


Reference: AR/37/52
Creation dates: 1387-88


Scope and Content
(11 Ric [II])

Account roll

[Receiver of John de Dynham?]

Expenses of James Beaucomb going from Carswill to London, Sunday after
St
[blank], 11 [Ric II].

Details of the journey; includes entertaining people in London.
Payment
received from the reeve of Wallop; fees paid in court; purchases for
LADY DE DINHAM
(silk, etc.).

Carswill [= Kingskerswell, Devon]

____________________________________________________________________


Reference: AR/37/53
Creation dates: 1388, Easter term


Scope and Content
(11 [Ric II])

Account roll

[Receiver of John de Dynham]

Expenses of John de Baucomb going from Cars' to Ouerton and Stoke on
the
lord's business, 11th year [of Ric II], Easter term.

First day, breakfast with James de Baucomb going to Wellyngton; ferry
at
Goryng.

Receipts at various places (Stoke, Ouerton, Wallop, Bokelond and
Corfton).

Cars' [= Kingskerswell, Devon]

Ouerton [probably = Over Worton, Oxfordshire]

________________________________________________________________________


Reference: AR/37/54
Creation dates: 1389, Hilary term


Scope and Content
(12 Ric II)

Account roll

[Receiver of John de Dynham]

Expenses incurred by John de Baucomb going to London on business of
John de
Dynham.

Details of the journey; expenses in London include 8d for 1 bottle of
'mounterose'; supper at Glaston' on the return journey.

Payments [specified]: legal; payments and receipts of loans (including
7d
from Odo Ude de Lostwithiel, and 20s for a brief against Hasthorp
concerning a
debt of £1,000).

_____________________________________________________________________


Reference: AR/37/55
Creation dates: 1393-94


Scope and Content
(17 Ric II)

Account roll

Minister(s): [Receiver of John Dynham?]

External expenses of John Dynham in various payments in London, 17 Ric
II.
[Book, 8 fols]

Includes journeys of Robert Maynard and James Baucomb to London,
before Nov
1st (All Saints) [details]; details of payments to tradesmen in
London. Other
purchases there, including 1 'tussu' for the lord and 1 for Thomas
Dynham.

Further purchases (saffron, red silk, a 'goune de damaske', etc.).

Lord's expenses, Tuesday 13th Jan 1394 going to meet the Earl of Devon
and
John Boter' at Exeter.

Expenses meeting the Earl of Hontyndon at Exeter.

Lord's oblations at the burial of John Dunele at Stauerton.

Purchase of fish [specified] at Exeter; various expenses of J.
Baucomb.

Various purchases.

Lord's expenses going from Herpeford to Cryket, and on from Cryket;
likewise
from Cars' to Hertelond; likewise a journey to Cornwall (Kylkamton,
Launston);
his expenses at Dertemouth.

Purchases ("1 hat emp' de Galfr' Cok 12d"); expenses of John Stantorre
on the
lord's business; lord's purchase of wine for Notewill, Thursday 30th
Jul [?];
further travels of the lord to Stokemulis, Yelchester, Schetterne,
Wynchester, Wallop, Nywbyry, Bokelond; various purchases (shoes for
servants), a net for
catching larks and 'wyer de latyn' for the net; tip to a servant at
Warbelynton.

Cars' [= Kingskerswell, Devon]

__________________________________________________________________


Reference: AR/37/56/1
Creation dates: [Late 14th century? but cf. Richard Batyn, reeve at
Herpeford
in 1479, AR/2/878.]

Extent and Form: 8 items


Scope and Content
Account roll

--- [personal]

Expenses of John de Dynham de Hertilond going to WARBLINGTON to fetch
his
wife (ad quer' uxorem &c.).

Tuesday at Pentecost, 40d to Richard Batyn at the lord's instruction
at
Hertilond; at Coryton for pepper, saffron, wine, bread, ale and for
the horses;
night at Criditon.

Further details of the journey.

Following Monday the expenses of the lord and lady 'et tota comitiva
eorum'
first in the morning at Hauent, later at Southwyk, and the 'mountagen'
[?] men
in another inn; return journey via Sarum, Shirborne, Criket (in house
of a
servant of John Cayl), Wellyngton (dinner, wine and mead in house of
William
Holewey), Baunton, Molton, Toryton.

Payments also to Elena, wife of William Whith; Walter Meth and Agnes
his
wife; Walter Moltyn [?]; also 3s 4 1/2d for hemp (canab') for the
lady; journey
lasted until Saturday the 12th day.

Warblington [in Hampshire

John Ravilious

unread,
Feb 27, 2004, 5:09:50 AM2/27/04
to
[Original post to GEN-MED]

Thursday, 26 February, 2004


Dear Chris, Rosie, Doug, Paul, Ivor, et al.,

Two items of some note with regard to the prior post, and the
relation of the Dinham family to that of Sir Guy de Briene (de Bryan):

1. Paul Reed noted that Sir Guy de Bryan, Lord Bryan was
born ca. 1319 (aged 30 at his father's death in 1349) [1].
It is evident that the 'Sir Guy de Briene' who held the
advowson of Morleigh, Devon in 1359 was in fact Sir Guy,
Lord Bryan and not his father. Further, given that
Oliver de Dinham of Sampford Peverel, Devon (husband of
Joan de Briene/Bryan) was born in or shortly before 1325
(proving his age in 1346), his wife Joan should be
identified as a sister of Sir Guy, Lord Bryan, and not
a daughter [2].

2. Sir Guy de Bryan's 2nd wife (m. bef 10 July 1350) was
Elizabeth de Montagu, widow of Hugh le Despenser (dsp)
and sister of John de Montagu, Lord Montagu and husband
of Margaret de Monthermer. This relationship does not
prove any further relationship to the Lords Dinham, but
does illustrate that Sir Guy de Bryan had relations with
both the Montagus and the younger Dinham branch. This
may have provided another avenue of contact between
Eleanor de Montagu (niece of Sir Guy's wife Elizabeth)
and John de Dinham (d. 1428), 2nd cousin of Sir Guy's
niece Margaret (de Dinham) de Asthorpe, of Morleigh, Devon.

Cheers,

John

NOTES

[1] Paul Reed, <CP XIV: FitzPayn, Grey, Bryan [VERY LONG]>, SGM,
20 Oct 1998.

[2] Col. F. B. Prideaux, Notes and News [with regard to the
pedigree of Fishacre, Genealogists' Magazine VI:626],
The Genealogists' Magazine Vol. 7, No. 10, June 1937,
pp. 536-7:
'Sir Guy de Bryan, guardian of the heir of Oliver de Dynham.'


the...@aol.com (John Ravilious) wrote in message news:<55712d2e.0402...@posting.google.com>...


> Saturday, 21 February, 2004
>
>
>
> Hello All,
>
> In pursuing additional documentation re: the Fissacre family on
> the PRO
> site, I found a great deal of material concerning the Dinham family in
> the
> "Arundell of Lanherne" files. In particular, a series of documents
> are given
> concerning John de Dinham and his steward re: expenses, travel & c.,
> as follows
> at the end of this message. Of particular interest are references to
> stops at
> Warblington, co. Hants., when en route to/from London.


<<<<<<<<<<<<<< SNIP >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

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