ELEANOR OF AQUITAINE
D. Spencer Hines
I confess to a certain fascination with Eleanor of Aquitaine. No kinkiness
or necrophilia here, just an interest in a Great Lady who was ahead of her
time. She was about 11 years older than Henry II and survived him by 15
years. Remarkable woman, for what she did and experienced.
Katherine Hepburn played her with great strength, grace and style in the
1968 cinema, "The Lion in Winter"---which I would strongly recommend to
anyone who has not seen it [No, not as a genealogical or historical
reference or icon, just as a great story that sets off accelerating
reverberations in the mind]---Miss Hepburn won the Academy Award for Best
Actress in 1968, her third, shared with Barbra Strisand. Hepburn owns the
role and has probably created our popular mental image of Eleanor of
Aquitaine---likely to endure for some time.
I am trying to sort out the maternal side of Eleanor's ancestry, which
appears to be thinner than the paternal side.
Many of us here on GEN-MEDIEVAL are probably descended from her. Would
anyone be so kind as to post a five generation Ahnenlist/Ahnenreihe or
Ahnentafel for her? That would be Eleanor plus 62 other ancestors. With
that data in hand, we should be able to construct a reasonably solid *seize
quartiers* for her.
D. Spencer Hines---"It may be said that, thanks to the 'clercs', humanity
did evil for two thousand years, but honored good. This contradiction was
an honor to the human species,and formed the rift whereby civilization
slipped into the world." "La Trahison des clercs" [The Treason of the
Intellectuals] (1927) Julien Benda (1867-1956)
David Collyer
Dear Spencer,
>Many of us here on GEN-MEDIEVAL are probably descended from her. Would
>anyone be so kind as to post a five generation Ahnenlist/Ahnenreihe or
>Ahnentafel for her? That would be Eleanor plus 62 other ancestors. With
>that data in hand, we should be able to construct a reasonably solid *seize
>quartiers* for her.
Here's what I have - any corrections, queries most welcome of course.
Regards
David in Ballarat
6 Generations
1. Eleanor b. 1122, Ombriere Palace, Bordeaux, occ. or title Duchess of
Aquitaine, m. (1)
22 Jul 1137, in Bordeux Cathedral, France, divorced 1152, Louis VII, b.
1120, occ. or
title King of France,1 d. 1180, m. (2) 18 May 1152, in Bordeaux Cathedral,
Gascony,
Henry II, b. 5 Mar 1133, LeMans, Anjou, France, occ. or title King of
England, d. 6
Jul 1189, Chinon Castle, France, buried: Fontevrault Abbey, France. Eleanor
died 1
Apr 1204, Fontevrault Abbey, France, buried: Fontevrault Abbey. May have
been born
at Belin Castle, Guienne. Also Countess of Poitou.
Parents
2. William VIII (X) b. 1099, occ. or title Duke of Aquitaine, m. Eleanor,
b.
1103, De
Chatellerault, d. > Mar 1130. William died 9 Apr 1137. Also Comte De Poitou.
3. Eleanor b. 1103, De Chatellerault, d. > Mar 1130.
Grand Parents
4. William VII (IX) b. 1071, occ. or title Duke of Aquitaine, m. (1) 1094,
divorced 1115,
Philipa (Mathilde), b. 1073, De Toulouse, d. 1117, m. (2) No., Dangerose, b.
c. 1079,
Isle Bouchard, France. William died 1127. Also Comte De Poitou.
5. Philipa (Mathilde) b. 1073, De Toulouse, d. 1117.
6. Aimery I b. 1077, De Rochefoucauld, occ. or title Viscount
Chatellerhault, m. 1109,
Dangerose, b. c. 1079, Isle Bouchard, France. Aimery died 7 Nov 1151, Notre
Dame
de Noyers.
7. Dangerose b. c. 1079, Isle Bouchard, France, m. (1) No., William VII
(IX), b. 1071,
occ. or title Duke of Aquitaine, d. 1127, m. (2) 1109, Aimery I, b. 1077, De
Rochefoucauld, occ. or title Viscount Chatellerhault, d. 7 Nov 1151, Notre
Dame de
Noyers. The mother of Agnes may have been Mauberon. Both of these sisters later
married Viscomte Aimery De CHATELLERAULT.
Great Grand Parents
8. Guy b. 1026, occ. or title Duke of Aquitaine,2 m. 1968/9, Hildegarde, b.
1030, De
Burgogne., d. 1104. Guy died 24 Sep 1086. Also known as William VI (VIII)
Comte
De Poitou.
9. Hildegarde b. 1030, De Burgogne., d. 1104. Of France.
10. William IV b. 1040, occ. or title Count of Toulouse, m. < 1067,3
Mathilde, b. 1042.
William died 1094, K.I.A. Huesca.
11. Mathilde b. 1042.
12. Boso II occ. or title Visc. de Chastellerault, m. 1075, Eleanor, b. De
Thouars. Boso
died 1092.
13. Eleanor b. De Thouars.
14. Barthelemy b. 1049, De L'isle Bouchard, m. Gerberge, b. 1053.
15. Gerberge b. 1053.
Great Great Grand Parents
16. William III (V) b. c. 968, Poitou, occ. or title Duke of Aquitaine,4 m.
1019, Agnes, b.
995, De Burgogne, occ. or title Countess of Burgundy,5 d. 10 Nov 1068. William
died 31 Jan 1030. Known as "Le Grand". Also Comte De Poitou 0993.
17. Agnes b. 995, De Burgogne, occ. or title Countess of Burgundy,6 d. 10
Nov 1068.
Agnes was William's 3rd wife.
18. Robert I b. 1011, De Bourgogne, occ. or title Duke of Burgundy, m.
1038,7 Ella
Ermengarde, b. 1011/28, De Semur, d. 1109. Robert died 1076, Fleury-sur-Ouche,
buried: Semur. And Comte d'Auxerre. Known as "Le Vieux" or "The Old".
19. Ella Ermengarde b. 1011/28, De Semur, d. 1109. Also known as Helie.
20. Pons II Guillame b. 990, occ. or title Count of Toulouse, m. < 29 Jun
1053,8
Almodis, b. 1000, De La Marche, d. 1060, murdered. Pons died 1060.
21. Almodis b. 1000, De La Marche, m. (1) < 29 Jun 1053,9 Pons II Guillame,
b. 990,
occ. or title Count of Toulouse, d. 1060, m. (2) Hugues V De LUSIGNAN, b. c.
1015, occ. or title Seigneur de Lusignan, d. 8 Oct 1060, m. (3) 1053, Raimond
Berenger I, b. 1023, Of Barcelona, occ. or title Count of Barcelona,10 d. 1076.
Almodis died 1060, murdered. Almodis was his 3rd wife. Theroff has her death at
1071 (B:/coucy_a.txt). She was murdered by her stepson, Peter Raimond of
Barcelona.
24. Hugh b. De Chastellerault, m. Gerberga, b. De la Rochefoucauld.
25. Gerberga b. De la Rochefoucauld.
26. Aimery IV b. 1015, De Thouars, m. Arengarde, b. 1017, De Mauleon.
Aimery died
1093/4, murdered, buried: St. Nicolas-de-la-Chaise.
27. Arengarde b. 1017, De Mauleon.
28. Archimbaud b. 1019, Isle Bouchard, France, m. Agnes, b. c. 1023, Isle
Bouchard,
occ. or title Dame De L'isle Bouchard. Known as Borel.
29. Agnes b. c. 1023, Isle Bouchard, occ. or title Dame De L'isle Bouchard.
3rd Great Grand Parents
32. William II (IV) b. 937, occ. or title Duke of Aquitaine, m. Emma, b.
939, De
Champagne et de Blois, d. > 1003. William died 3 Apr 0995. Also Comte II De
Poitou; Duc IV de Guyenne (= Aquitaine); Comte de Xaintes. Known as "Fierrabras"
or "Ironarm". Historie Genealogique de la Maison Royale de France, Anselme de
St.Marie says d. 3 Feb 0993.
33. Emma b. 939, De Champagne et de Blois, d. > 1003.
34. Otto William b. 958/9, Of Burgundy, occ. or title Comte de Bourgogne
etc.,11 m.
Ermentrude De ROUCY, b. c. 950, Of Rheims, d. 5 Mar 1003/4. Otto died 21 Sep
1026. Comte de Bourgogne, de Macon et de Nevers. Theroff calls him Othon
Guillame. He was adopted by his step-father, whereby he became Comte de
Bourgogne etc. He was pretender to the Duchy of Bourgogne.
35. Ermentrude De ROUCY b. c. 950, Of Rheims, d. 5 Mar 1003/4. Also known
as
Irmtrude.
36. Robert II b. 27 Mar 0972, Orleans, occ. or title King of France, m.
1003, Constance,
b. 974, Of Arles, De Toulouse, d. 25 Jul 1032, Melun. Robert died 20 Jul 1031,
Melun, buried: St. Denis. Jared Olar (Gen-Medieval) states that he reigned
from 996
- 1031. Known as "The Pious".
37. Constance b. 974, Of Arles, De Toulouse, d. 25 Jul 1032, Melun.
38. Dalmace I b. 970, Of Semur-en-Auxois, occ. or title Count of Semur, m.
Aremburge,
b. 980, De Vergy (? De Bourgogne). Dalmace died 1032. Edward3.wps calls him
Damas De SEMUR.
39. Aremburge b. 980, De Vergy (? De Bourgogne). Edward3.wps calls her
Aramburge
DeBOURGOGNE.
40. William III TAILLEFER b. 947, De Toulouse, occ. or title Comte de
Provence, m.
(1) 1019,12 Emma, b. 949, De Venaissin, m. (2) Adelaide, b. 948, De Comminges Of
Anjou, d. 1026. William died 1037. Weis says died 993/4 Avignon. (p.124).
41. Emma b. 949, De Venaissin.
42. Bernard b. 974, occ. or title Comte De La Marche, m. Aina De MONTIGNAC.
Bernard died 1047.
43. Aina De MONTIGNAC.
52. Geoffrey II b. fl 1055, De Thouars, occ. or title Viscount De Thouars,
m. Aenor.
53. Aenor.
D. Spencer Hines
At 12:40 AM 3/31/97 +0000, Alan B. Wilson wrote:
A fine piece on Eleanor of Aquitaine. Thanks very much. I'll incorporate
your data and make corrections----or call out key issues. Your source data
is superb.
D. Spencer Hines-----Exitus acta probat----President George Washington
(1732-1799)
Alan B. Wilson
On Sun, 30 Mar 1997 D. Spencer Hines wrote:
>Here is a first rough draft of a projected six generation [counting Eleanor
>as the First Generation] Ahnenreihe for Eleanor of Aquitaine. As many of
>you know, I am quite skeptical of many of the so called "facts" of Medieval
>History and Genealogy, so I am sure this rough effort is riddled with
>errors of fact, dates and names. There is no pride of authorship involved
>here. There is a great deal of data, and many chances for obstinate errors
>to creep into the text because of my ignorance, carelessness and simple
>inattention to detail.
>
snip
>
>Please be so kind as to provide sources with complete citations for
>corrections, so we shall all have those in our databases.
>
>
>Ancestors of ELEANOR of Aquitaine Duchess of Aquitaine - 30 Mar 1997
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
snip
>10. William IV of Toulouse Comte de Toulouse was born in 1040. He died
>in 1094 in Huesca, Spain, Killed in Action. Acceded: 1061. Some sources
>seem to have William IV, Count of Toulouse's Mother as
>Arlette/Adelmode/Almodis de la Marche, born 1000, married [1] Pons before
>29 Jun 1053 [2] Hugues de Lusignan [who was born c. 1015 and who was
>Seigneur de Lusignan and who died 8 Oct 1060] [3] 1053 Raimond Berenger I,
>Count of Barcelona, born 1023 and died 1076.
>
>Almodis de la Marche died in 1060. She was murdered by her stepson, Pierre
>Raimond of Barcelona. All this above bears careful checking. Almodis may
>have been the third wife of Raimond Berenger I. He was married to Emma of
>Mortain before 1067.
>
snip
>20. Pons II de Toulouse Comte de Toulouse was born in 990. He died in
>1061. Acceded: 1037. Pons II Guillaume de Toulouse. It is not clear as to
>who was his Mother. He was married to Sancha.
>
>21. Sancha died in 1073. Pons II de Toulouse Comte de Toulouse and
>Sancha had the following children:
>
> 10 i. William IV of Toulouse Comte de Toulouse.
> ii. Raymond IV of Toulouse Comte de Saint
>Giles died in 1105. Acceded:
>1094. Comte de Toulouse. Count of Tripoli 1102-1105.
>
snip
>42. Ramiro I SANCHEZ King of Aragon died in 1069 in Barbarossa. Acceded:
>1035. Suceeded to Aragon upon partition of his father's territories.
>Count of Ribagorza and Sobrarbe. He died in Battle against the Muslims.
>Some sources indicate that he was killed 8 May 1064 at Graus. He was
>married to Gilberga (Hermesenda) ROGER on 22 Aug 1036 in Jaca.
>
>43. Gilberga (Hermesenda) ROGER died in 1054. Ramiro I SANCHEZ King of
>Aragon and Gilberga (Hermesenda) ROGER had the following children:
>
> i. Sancho V RAMIREZ King of Aragon was
>born in 1042. He died on 4 Jun
>1094 in Huesca. Acceded 1063. King of Pamplona 1076. Aragon was
>substantially expanded by conquest during his reign. Who was the mother of
>the two children, born before his marriage?
> 21 ii. Sancha.
>
Sancha of Aragon, dau. of Ramiro I and Gilberga, married
Pons of Toulouse, d. ca 1063, the son of Pons II William and his
first wife, Marjorie.
Europaische Stammtafeln iii, 763 lists Pons II William's
second wife (married before 29 Jun 1053), Almodis de La March,
d. 1077/1078, dau. of Count Bernard, as mother of Willliam IV,
Count of Toulouse. She is also named by Moriarty, Plantagenet
Ancestry, p. 42; Weis, Ancestral Roots, 185:2; Winkhaus, Ahnen
zu Karl dem Grossen und Widukind," p. 176; J. D. Joannis with
R. de Saint-Jouan, "Les Seize Quartiers Genealogiques des
Capetiens," i, 17.
Admodis had been divorced from Hugh V of Lusignan ca 1044;
married Pons II William in 1044/1045 and was divorced from him
by 1053; married Raimond Berenger I of Barcelona 1053. (Dates
from Winkhaus.) I do not have a birthdate for William IV to
make sure she really could fit this in to her busy schedule.:)
According to ES Pons II William and Almodis also had Raimund IV,
a son named Hugues, and a daughter named Almodis--four children
during this eight or nine year marriage.
Here is my briefer version of a six-generational ancestry
for Eleanor. There are a few other additions later: 48, 49,
50, 51, and 58.
1 Eleanor of Aquitaine Duchess. Born 1122. Of
Poitou. Died 31 Mar 1204 in Mirabell Castle, Poitiers, France.
Buried in Fontevrault Abbey in Anjou. Countess of Poitou.
2 Guillaume X of Aquitaine Duke. Born 1099 in
France. Died 9 Apr 1137. Count of Poitou.
3 Eleanor of Chatellerault. Of Aquitaine,
France. Died After Mar 1130.
4 William IX of Aquitaine Duke. Born 22 Oct 1071
in France. Died 10 Feb 1126/1127. Duke of Aquitaine. Count of
Poitou.
5 Philippa \ Maud of Toulouse. Born circa 1073 in
France. Died a nun 28 Nov 1117.
6 Aimery I of Chatellerault viscomte. Born circa
1076. Of Chatellerault, Vienne, France. Died 7 Nov 1151 in
Abbey of Noyers. Buried in Abbey of Noyers.
7 Dangerose of l'Isle-Bouchard. Born circa 1080. Died after 1119.
8 Guido Guillaume VIII of Aquitaine Duke. Born
circa 1020. Died 25 Sep 1086. Count of Poitou.
9 Hildegarde of Bourgogne. Born circa 1050. Died after 1104.
10 William IV of Toulouse Count. Died 1094 in
battle at Huesca. Count of Toulouse, Albi, Peregord
Carcassonne, Rodez & Dijon; Duke of Narbonne.
11 Emma of Mortaigne. Born circa 1058 in Mortaigne, France.
12 Boso of la Rochefoucauld vicomte. Born circa
1036. Died 1092. Vicomte of Chatellerault.
13 Alienor of Thouars. Born circa 1050.
14 Barthelmy of l'Isle-Bouchard.
15 Gerberge.
16 Guillaume V of Aquitaine Duke. Born 969. Died 31
Jan 1030. Duke of Aquitaine; Count of Poitou.
17 Agnes of Bourgogne. Born circa 995. Died 10 Nov 1068.
18 Robert I "the Old" of Bourgogne Duke. Born circa
1011. Died 21 Mar 1076 in Fleury-sur-Ouche. Buried in Semur.
19 Ermengarde of Anjou. Born circa 1018. Died 18
Mar 1076 in Fleury-sur-Ouche.
20 Pons II Wiliam of Toulouse Count. Born 990. Died
1060. Buried in St. Sernin, Toulouse. Count of Toulouse, Albi
and Dijon .
21 Almodis of la Marche. Born circa 990. Died 16
Oct 1071. Murdered by step-son Peter Raimond of Barcelona.
22 Robert of Mortaigne Count. Born after 1040 in
Normandy. Died 8 Dec 1090. Buried in l'abbaye de Grestain.
"Earl of Cornwall and Montgomery".
23 Maud of Montgomery. Born circa 1039. Of
Mortaigne, France. Died circa 1085. Buried in l'abbaye de
Grestain.
24 Hugh of Chastellerault vicomte. Born circa 1008. Died 1075.
25 Gerberga of la Rochefoucauld. Born circa 1012.
26 Aimery IV of Thouars Viscount. Born circa 1024.
Died 1093. Buried in Saint Nicholas de la Chaise.
27 Arengarde of Mauleon. Born circa 1030.
28 Archimbaud "Borel". Died before 1084..
29 Agnes of l'Isle-Bouchard.
32 Guillaume IV of Aquitaine Duke. Born 937. Died 3
Feb 995. Duke of Aquitaine; Count of Poitou.
33 Emma of Blois. Born 950. Died after 1003.
34 Otto I Guillaume of Burgundy Count. Born circa
955. Of Lombard, Italy. Died 21 Sep 1026. Count of Macon and
Nevers.
35 Hermentrude of Roucy. Born 958/959. Of Reimes,
France. Died 5 Mar 1002/1005.
36 Robert II "the Pious" of France King. Born 27
Mar 972 in Orleans, France. Died 20 Jul 1031 in Meulan, France.
Buried in St. Denis. King of France {988-1031}.
37 Constance of Arles (Toulouse). Born circa 986.
Of Toulouse, France. Died 25 Jul 1032 in Meulan. Buried in St.
Denis.
38 Foulques III "Nerra" of Anjou Count. Born circa
970/971. Died 21 Jun 1040 in Metz, France. Count of Anjou
{986-}.
39 Hildegarde of Lotharingia. Born circa 964/974 in
France. Died 1 Apr 1046 in Jerusalem, Holy Land.
40 William III "Taillefer" of Toulouse Count. Born
947. Died Sep 1037.
41 Emme of Provence. Born circa 965. Died after 1063.
42 Bernard I of la Marche. Born circa 986. Died
1047. Count of la Marche.
43 Amelia of Montignac. Born circa 990. Died 1072.
44 Herluin of Conteville Viscount. Born circa 1001.
Died circa 1066. Buried in Grestain.
45 Herleva \ Harlette of Falaise. Born circa 1003.
Died circa 1050. Buried in Grestain.
46 Roger II of Montgomery. Born circa 1005/1022.
Died 27 Jul 1094 in Shrewsbury Abby. Vicomte of Heimois; sire
of Alencon. Earl of Shropshire & Shrewsbury; Earl of Arundel.
47 Mabel of Alencon. Born circa 1015/1026 in
Alencon, France. Died 1079/1082. Buried 5 Dec 1079/1082 in
l'abbaye de Troarn, France.
48 Boso I of Chastellerault. Born circa 965. Died Before 1013.
49 Amelia. Born circa 970. Of Chastellerault, France.
50 Foucauld I. Born circa 982 Of Lusignan, France. Died 1037.
51 Gersinde ?. Born circa 986.
52 Geoffrey II of Thouars Viscount. Born circa 980. Died 1043.
53 Ainora. Born circa 1002.
58 Hugh of l'Isle-Bouchard.
--
Alan B. Wilson
abwi...@uclink2.berkeley.edu
D. Spencer Hines
Here is a first rough draft of a projected six generation [counting Eleanor
as the First Generation] Ahnenreihe for Eleanor of Aquitaine. As many of
you know, I am quite skeptical of many of the so called "facts" of Medieval
History and Genealogy, so I am sure this rough effort is riddled with
errors of fact, dates and names. There is no pride of authorship involved
here. There is a great deal of data, and many chances for obstinate errors
to creep into the text because of my ignorance, carelessness and simple
inattention to detail.
I am quite grateful to David Collyer of Ballarat, Australia, site of the
celebrated Eureka Stockade, for providing so much of the foundation. Other
sources are ES, University of Hull, Grand Dictionnaire Encyclopedique
Larousse [plus several other French sources] Encyclopedia Britannica, and
several biographies of Eleanor of Aquitaine.
As I understand it, these people generally were "French", therefore if my
spelling, capitalization, grammar or syntax---involving any of the French
names is in error, please do not be shy about pointing it out. I should
prefer to leave the names in French wherever possible.
My hope is that we can nail down a solid ancestor chart for this Grande
Dame, who was the ancestor of so many of us.
Please be so kind as to provide sources with complete citations for
corrections, so we shall all have those in our databases.
Ancestors of ELEANOR of Aquitaine Duchess of Aquitaine - 30 Mar 1997
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
FIRST GENERATION
1. ELEANOR of Aquitaine Duchess of Aquitaine was born in 1122 in Chateau
de Belin, Guienne, France. She may have been born in Ombriere Palace,
Bordeaux. She died on 1 Apr 1204 in Fontevrault Abbey, Anjou, France.
Interred: Fontevrault Abbey, Anjou, France. She may have died in Poitiers.
Acceded: 19 Dec 1154, Westminster Abbey, London, England.
She accompanied Louis VII on the Second Crusade (1147-1149) They became
estranged and the marriage was annulled in 1152. Two months later she
married Henry Plantagenet, who became Henry II, King of England (1154).
She encouraged and abetted a revolt by Henry's three eldest surviving
legitimate sons, Richard, Gregory and John, against their father. She was
imprisoned for nearly 15 years (1174-1189) and released upon Henry's death.
During Richard I's reign (1189-1199) he was frequently absent from the
Kingdom, and she administered the affairs of the Realm. Even after Richard
I died in 1199, she continued to exert influence and remained active in
political affairs when John Lackland became King. He was forced, by his
rebellious Barons, to sign the Magna Carta in 1215.
Countess of Saintonge, Angoumois, Limousin, Auvergne, Bordeaux and Agen.
She was also Comtesse de Poitou. Other sources say she died 26 Jun 1202.
Burke thinks she died 1162.
SECOND GENERATION
2. William VIII/X The Toulousan Duke of Aquitaine was born in 1099. He
died on 9 Apr 1137 in Compostella, Spain. He was married to Eleanor DE
CHATELLERAULT.
3. Eleanor DE CHATELLERAULT was born in 1103. She died after Mar 1130.
AKA Aleanor and Aenor. William VIII/X The Toulousan Duke of Aquitaine and
Eleanor DE CHATELLERAULT had the following children:
1 i. ELEANOR of Aquitaine Duchess of Aquitaine.
ii. Petronella was born about 1125. She died on 4 Oct 1153.
THIRD GENERATION
4. William VII/IX The Troubador Duke of Aquitaine was born on 22 Oct
1071. He died on 10 Feb 1126. Acceded: 1086. Comte de Poitou. He
supported Philip I of France against William the Conqueror. Erected the
Palace of Poitou. After conferring large donations on the church, he died.
Dates and name are unclear. Some designate him as William VII. He was
married to Philippa of Toulouse in 1094. Divorce 1115
5. Philippa of Toulouse died on 28 Nov 1118 in Fontevrault Abbey, Anjou,
France. AKA Maud and Mathilde. William VII/IX The Troubador Duke of
Aquitaine and Philippa of Toulouse had the following children:
2 i. William VIII/X The Toulousan Duke of Aquitaine.
ii. Agnes of Aquitaine.
6. Aimery I DE ROCHEFOUCAULD Vicomte de Chatellerhault was born in 1077.
He died on 7 Nov 1151 in Notre Dame de Noyers. AKA Almeric. He was
married to Dangereuse in 1109.
7. Dangereuse was born about 1079 in Isle Bouchard, France. AKA Dangerose
Aimery I DE ROCHEFOUCAULD Vicomte de Chatellerhault and Dangereuse had the
following children:
3 i. Eleanor DE CHATELLERAULT.
FOURTH GENERATION
8. William VI\VIII (Guido) Duke of Aquitaine was born about 1026. He
died on 25 Sep 1086. AKA Guy. Acceded: 1058. Comte de Poitou. Founded
the Priory of Saint Gemma in Xaintonge. Some sources say he died in 1021,
but according to Stammtafeln, no Duke of Aquitaine died then. He was
married to Hildegard de Bourgogne in 1068/69. Second wife.
9. Hildegard de Bourgogne was born in 1050. She died after 1104. William
VI\VIII (Guido) Duke of Aquitaine and Hildegard de Bourgogne had the
following children:
i. Agnes of Aquitaine died in 1097.
4 ii. William VII/IX The Troubador Duke of Aquitaine.
10. William IV of Toulouse Comte de Toulouse was born in 1040. He died
in 1094 in Huesca, Spain, Killed in Action. Acceded: 1061. Some sources
seem to have William IV, Count of Toulouse's Mother as
Arlette/Adelmode/Almodis de la Marche, born 1000, married [1] Pons before
29 Jun 1053 [2] Hugues de Lusignan [who was born c. 1015 and who was
Seigneur de Lusignan and who died 8 Oct 1060] [3] 1053 Raimond Berenger I,
Count of Barcelona, born 1023 and died 1076.
Almodis de la Marche died in 1060. She was murdered by her stepson, Pierre
Raimond of Barcelona. All this above bears careful checking. Almodis may
have been the third wife of Raimond Berenger I. He was married to Emma of
Mortain before 1067.
11. Emma of Mortain was born in 1042. Birthdate and Marriage date to
William IV of Toulouse are not confirmed. AKA Mathilde?? William IV of
Toulouse Comte de Toulouse and Emma of Mortain had the following children:
5 i. Philippa of Toulouse.
12. Boso II Vicomte de Chatellerhault died in 1092. He was married to
Eleanor de Thouars in 1075.
13. Eleanor de Thouars was born in De Thouars. Boso II Vicomte de
Chatellerhault and Eleanor de Thouars had the following children:
6 i. Aimery I DE ROCHEFOUCAULD Vicomte de Chatellerhault.
14. Barthelemy Seigneur de l'Isle Bouchard was born in 1049. He was
married to Gerberge.
15. Gerberge was born in 1053. Barthelemy Seigneur de l'Isle Bouchard
and Gerberge had the following children:
7 i. Dangereuse.
FIFTH GENERATION
16. William III\V Le Grand Duc de Aquitaine was born about 969 in Poitou,
France. He died on 31 Jan 1030 in Abbey of Saint Cyprian, England.
Acceded: 993. Comte de Poitou. Some sources indicate that he abdicated
the Dukedom in favor of his son in 1021. This is not the position taken in
Europaische Stammtafeln. Other sources indicate that he died in 1025, but
Stammtafeln [ES] reports the date as 1030. He was married to Agnes de
Macon Comtesse de Bourgogne in 1018/19. Third wife.
17. Agnes de Macon Comtesse de Bourgogne was born about 995. She died on
10 Nov 1068. AKA Agnes of Burgundy and Agnes von Burgund. William III\V
Le Grand Duc de Aquitaine and Agnes de Macon Comtesse de Bourgogne had
the following children:
i. Agnes DE POITOU was born about 1020. She died on 14 Dec
1077.
ii. William V\VII (Peter) of Aquitaine Duke of Aquitaine
was born about
1023.
8 iii. William VI\VIII (Guido) Duke of Aquitaine.
18. Robert I DE BOURGOGNE Duke of Burgundy was born in 1011. He died on
21 Mar 1076 in Fleury-sur-Ouche. Interred: Semur Acceded: 1031. Comte
d'Auxerre. He was known as "Le Vieux" ["The Old"] He was married to
Ermengarde of Anjou about 1048.
19. Ermengarde of Anjou was born in 1018. She died on 18 Mar 1076 in
Fleury-sur-Ouche. "Europaeische Stammtafeln," Band II, Tafel 20. Robert I
DE BOURGOGNE Duke of Burgundy and Ermengarde of Anjou had the following
children:
9 i. Hildegard de Bourgogne.
20. Pons II de Toulouse Comte de Toulouse was born in 990. He died in
1061. Acceded: 1037. Pons II Guillaume de Toulouse. It is not clear as to
who was his Mother. He was married to Sancha.
21. Sancha died in 1073. Pons II de Toulouse Comte de Toulouse and
Sancha had the following children:
10 i. William IV of Toulouse Comte de Toulouse.
ii. Raymond IV of Toulouse Comte de Saint Giles died in
1105. Acceded:
1094. Comte de Toulouse. Count of Tripoli 1102-1105.
22. Robert of Mortain DE BURGO Count of Mortain was born about 1031. He
died on 8 Dec 1090. Interred: Abbey of Saint Grestain, France. Or did he
die in 1095? Acceded: 1049. Earl of Cornwall. He was married to Matilda
of Montgomery before 1066.
23. Matilda of Montgomery. AKA Maud. Robert of Mortain DE BURGO Count of
Mortain and Matilda of Montgomery had the following children:
i. William of Mortain Count of Mortain was born before
1084. He died
after 1140. Acceded: 8 Dec 1090
11 ii. Emma of Mortain.
24. Hugh de Chatellerault. He was married to Gerberga de la Rochefoucauld.
25. Gerberga de la Rochefoucauld. Hugh de Chatellerault and Gerberga de
la Rochefoucauld had the following children:
12 i. Boso II Vicomte de Chatellerhault.
26. Aimery IV de Thouars Vicomte de Thouars was born in 1015 in De
Thouars. He died in 1093/94. He was murdered. Interred: St.
Nicholas-de-la-Chaise. He was married to Arengarde de Mauleon.
27. Arengarde de Mauleon was born in 1017 in De Mauleon. AKA Aurengarde
Aimery IV de Thouars Vicomte de Thouars and Arengarde de Mauleon had the
following children:
13 i. Eleanor de Thouars.
28. Archimbaud Seigneur de L'isle Bouchard was born in 1019 in Isle
Bouchard, France. Known as Borel. He was married to Agnes Dame de L'isle
Bouchard.
29. Agnes Dame de L'isle Bouchard was born about 1023 in Isle Bouchard,
France. Archimbaud Seigneur de L'isle Bouchard and Agnes Dame de L'isle
Bouchard had the following children:
14 i. Barthelemy Seigneur de l'Isle Bouchard.
SIXTH GENERATION
32. William II (IV) Ironarm Duke of Aquitaine was born about 937. He
died about 995. Comte II de Poitou. Duc IV de Guienne (=Aquitaine)
"Fierrabras"="Ironarm"---Comte de Xaintes. He was married to Emma de
Champagne et de Blois about 968.
33. Emma de Champagne et de Blois died after 1003. She was born cica 950.
AKA Emma de Vermandois. William II (IV) Ironarm Duke of Aquitaine and
Emma de Champagne et de Blois had the following children:
16 i. William III\V Le Grand Duc de Aquitaine.
34. Otte-Guillaume Comte de Bourgogne was born about 958/59. He died on
21 Sep 1026. Comte de Bourgogne (982/986), Comte de Macon (c.
995-c.1006),pretendant au duche de Bourgogne (1002-c.1004 or 1016). AKA
Graf Otto Wilhelm von Burgund. Comte de Bourgogne, de Macon et de Nevers.
He was adopted by his stepfather, whereby he became Comte de Bourgogne, de
Macon et de Nevers. He was married to Ermentrude DE ROUCY.
35. Ermentrude DE ROUCY was born about 950. She died on 5 Mar 1003/4.
AKA Ermentrud von Roucy and Irmtrude. She was of Rheims. Otte-Guillaume
Comte de Bourgogne and Ermentrude DE ROUCY had the following children:
i. Renaud I of Burgundy Comte de Bourgogne 1st was born in
990. He died
on 3 Sep 1057. Acceded: 1026
17 ii. Agnes de Macon Comtesse de Bourgogne.
36. ROBERT II "The Pious" King of France was born on 27 Mar 972 in
Orleans, France. He died on 20 Jul 1031 in Meulan, France. Interred: St.
Denis, France. Acceded: 996. Or was it 988? He was married to Constance
of Arles in 1003.
37. Constance of Arles was born in 974 in Toulouse, France. Or was it
circa 986? She died on 25 Jul 1032 in Meulan, France. Interred: St.
Denis, France AKA Constance of Toulouse. It is not completely clear as
to who is Constance's Mother. ROBERT II "The Pious" King of France and
Constance of Arles had the following children:
18 i. Robert I DE BOURGOGNE Duke of Burgundy.
ii. HENRY I King of France was born in Apr 1008. He died
on 4 Aug 1060
in Vitry-en-Brie, France. Interred: Saint Denis, France. Acceded: 1031.
iii. Adela (Alix) DE FRANCE Princess was born in 1009 in
France. She
died on 8 Jan 1079 in Messinesmonastre, France. Interred: Messines AKA
Aelide and Adelaide. Which spouse of Robert was her mother is not clear.
Some sources show her as the daughter of Robert I of France.
38. Foulques III The Black D' ANJOU Count of Anjou was born in 970/71. He
died on 21 Jun 1040 in Metz, France. Acceded: 986
"Not all founders [of monasteries] were known for their kindness. Fulk
[III] [The Black]
of Anjou, plunderer, murderer, robber, and swearer of fale oaths, a truly
terrifying character of fiendish cruelty, founded not one but two large
abbeys. This Fulk was filled with unbridled passion, a temper directed to
extremes.
Whenever he had the slightest difference with a neighbor he
rushed upon his lands, ravaging, pillaging, raping, and killing; nothing
could stop him, least of all the commandments of God. This appalling man
had countless crimes upon his conscience, but when seized with a fit of
remorse he abandoned himself to incredible penances.
Thus the very tomb of Saint Martin, whose monks he had ill-treated, saw
him prostrate, with bare feet and in penitent's dress; and four times
during his life he went to Jerusalem as a devout pilgrim, treading half-naked
the sorrowful road of the passion while two of his servants flogged him until
the blood flowed, crying, "Lord, receive thy perjured Fulk!" "
------ Richard Erdoes, *AD 1000: Living on the Brink of Apocalypse*, 1988
(reprint 1995) p. 12
Fulk is spoken of elsewhere with admiration. R. W. Southern, The Making of
the Middle Ages, pp. 83-86, calls him (86) a 'man of note' and a 'pioneer
in the art of feudal government,' particularly in the building and
strategic use of stone castles. Bernard Bachrach's biography of Fulk is
more openly admiring in an Ayn Rand sort of way. Fulk may not have been
particularly sensitive, but a fitting progenitor for the likes of Henry II
& Edward I.
Nat Taylor nta...@fas.harvard.edu [Lecturer in Medieval History at
Harvard]
Fulk III "Nerra" ["The Black"]
He was married to Hildegarde of Lotharingia.
39. Hildegarde of Lotharingia was born between 964 and 974 in France. She
died on 1 Apr 1046 in Jerusalem, Holy Land. Foulques III The Black D'
ANJOU Count of Anjou and Hildegarde of Lotharingia had the following children:
19 i. Ermengarde of Anjou.
40. William III of Toulouse TAILLEFER Comte de Toulouse was born about
947. He died in Sep 1037. Acceded: 960. Comte de Provence. He was
married to Emma de Venaissin about 970. This marriage date is not confirmed.
41. Emma de Venaissin was born in 949. William III of Toulouse TAILLEFER
Comte de Toulouse and Emma de Venaissin had the following children:
37 i. Constance of Arles.
20 ii. Pons II de Toulouse Comte de Toulouse.
42. Ramiro I SANCHEZ King of Aragon died in 1069 in Barbarossa. Acceded:
1035. Suceeded to Aragon upon partition of his father's territories.
Count of Ribagorza and Sobrarbe. He died in Battle against the Muslims.
Some sources indicate that he was killed 8 May 1064 at Graus. He was
married to Gilberga (Hermesenda) ROGER on 22 Aug 1036 in Jaca.
43. Gilberga (Hermesenda) ROGER died in 1054. Ramiro I SANCHEZ King of
Aragon and Gilberga (Hermesenda) ROGER had the following children:
i. Sancho V RAMIREZ King of Aragon was born in 1042. He
died on 4 Jun
1094 in Huesca. Acceded 1063. King of Pamplona 1076. Aragon was
substantially expanded by conquest during his reign. Who was the mother of
the two children, born before his marriage?
21 ii. Sancha.
44. Herluin DE CONTEVILLE Viscount. Burke calls him Harlowen de Burgo.
He was married to Herleva (Harlette) (Arlette) DE FALAISE Officer of the
Household. Married or Associated With.
45. Herleva (Harlette) (Arlette) DE FALAISE Officer of the Household was
born about 1012 in Calvados, Normandy. Or was she born circa 1003? She
died about 1050. Interred: Grestain She is also known as Herleva, Officer
of the Household and Harlette of Falaise. Herluin DE CONTEVILLE Viscount
and Herleva (Harlette) (Arlette) DE FALAISE Officer of the Household had
the following children:
i. Odo (Eudes) of Bayeaux Bishop of Bayeaux was born about
1030.
22 ii. Robert of Mortain DE BURGO Count of Mortain.
iii. Daughter DE BURGO.
46. Roger of Montgomery Earl of Shrewsbury. He was married to Mabel of
Alencon-Belleme.
47. Mabel of Alencon-Belleme. Roger of Montgomery Earl of Shrewsbury and
Mabel of Alencon-Belleme had the following children:
23 i. Matilda of Montgomery.
52. Geoffrey II DE THOUARS Vicomte de Thouars was born in De Thouars. He
flourished circa 1055. He was married to Aenor.
53. Aenor. Geoffrey II DE THOUARS Vicomte de Thouars and Aenor had the
following children:
26 i. Aimery IV de Thouars Vicomte de Thouars.
Todd A. Farmerie
Alan B. Wilson wrote:
>
> On Sun, 30 Mar 1997 D. Spencer Hines wrote:
>
>
> >42. Ramiro I SANCHEZ King of Aragon died in 1069 in Barbarossa. Acceded:
> >1035. Suceeded to Aragon upon partition of his father's territories.
> >Count of Ribagorza and Sobrarbe. He died in Battle against the Muslims.
> >Some sources indicate that he was killed 8 May 1064 at Graus. He was
> >married to Gilberga (Hermesenda) ROGER on 22 Aug 1036 in Jaca.
> >
> >43. Gilberga (Hermesenda) ROGER died in 1054. Ramiro I SANCHEZ King of
> >Aragon and Gilberga (Hermesenda) ROGER had the following children:
> >
> > i. Sancho V RAMIREZ King of Aragon was
> >born in 1042. He died on 4 Jun
> >1094 in Huesca. Acceded 1063. King of Pamplona 1076. Aragon was
> >substantially expanded by conquest during his reign. Who was the mother of
> >the two children, born before his marriage?
> > 21 ii. Sancha.
> >
> Sancha of Aragon, dau. of Ramiro I and Gilberga, married
> Pons of Toulouse, d. ca 1063, the son of Pons II William and his
> first wife, Marjorie.
>
Is this from ES? I looked at several of Vajay's published works, and in
them she is given as husband only Ermengol III of Urgel, although the
marriage date (ca. 1063) is consistant with her marrying him as a widow
of this young Pons. I also note that Almodis was involved in the
government of Toulouse following the death of Pons II, suggesting a
blood relationship to the young Counts William and Raymond.
> 38 Foulques III "Nerra" of Anjou Count. Born circa
> 970/971. Died 21 Jun 1040 in Metz, France. Count of Anjou
> {986-}.
> 39 Hildegarde of Lotharingia. Born circa 964/974 in
> France. Died 1 Apr 1046 in Jerusalem, Holy Land.
I have seen several sources identify her as "of Lorraine" or "of Metz"
but none provide a parentage. Do you have anything for this? If not,
then how solid is the toponym?
taf
Gordon Fisher
At 02:08 PM 4/3/97 -0500, you (Todd Farmerie) wrote:
[snip, snip]
>
>
>> 38 Foulques III "Nerra" of Anjou Count. Born circa
>> 970/971. Died 21 Jun 1040 in Metz, France. Count of Anjou
>> {986-}.
>> 39 Hildegarde of Lotharingia. Born circa 964/974 in
>> France. Died 1 Apr 1046 in Jerusalem, Holy Land.
>
>
>I have seen several sources identify her as "of Lorraine" or "of Metz"
>but none provide a parentage. Do you have anything for this? If not,
>then how solid is the toponym?
>
>taf
>
>
Bernard Bachrach, in his book *Fulk Nerra*, 1993, has on p 100:
"Fulk's vigorous activities following his return from the Holy Land were
highlighted by his marriage to Hildegarde, an *illusta puella* from Lorraine
who was descended from royalty."
To this, he has a footnote on p 318: "*Cartul. du Ronceray*, no. 173,
provides the documentary evidence for Hildegarde's royal birth. The
veracity of this text is unchallenged: e.g., Halphen, *Le comte' d'Anjou*,
11, n. 1. Thus far, however, no one has been able to trace her immediate
family with any certitude. See the literature cited by Bachrach, "Origins of
Countess Gerberga," 14-15, n. 11."
The last part is evidently a reference to his article cited in his
bibliography, "Some Observations on the Origins of Countess Gerberga of the
Angevins: An Essay in the Application of the Tellenbach-Werner
Prosopographyical Method.", *Medieval Prosopography 7*, no. 2 (1986): 1-23.
Bachrach says on p 100: "King Robert's diplomatic exchanges with the
Germans, of which the Meuse meeting is the best documented, are likely to
have prompted his interest in Hildegarde. More to the point, Fulk needed a
wife who could provide a male heir and his choice of a woman from a
prominent family in Lorraine might perhaps be seen to have had a diplomatic
and strategic purpose as well, which could be threatened by Fulk's in-laws
if the count of Blois chose to mount military operation against the Angevin
count in the west."
In the previous paragraph, Bachrach seems to be assuming without question
that Hildegarde is from Lorraine, although as he says in the footnote, her
"immediate family" hasn't been determined (as of 1993, to the best of
Bachrach's knowledge).
Gordon Fisher gfi...@shentel.net
Alan B. Wilson
>Alan B. Wilson wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, 30 Mar 1997 D. Spencer Hines wrote:
>>
>>
>> >42. Ramiro I SANCHEZ King of Aragon died in 1069 in Barbarossa. Acceded:
>> >1035. Suceeded to Aragon upon partition of his father's territories.
>> >Count of Ribagorza and Sobrarbe. He died in Battle against the Muslims.
>> >Some sources indicate that he was killed 8 May 1064 at Graus. He was
>> >married to Gilberga (Hermesenda) ROGER on 22 Aug 1036 in Jaca.
>> >
>> >43. Gilberga (Hermesenda) ROGER died in 1054. Ramiro I SANCHEZ King of
>> >Aragon and Gilberga (Hermesenda) ROGER had the following children:
>> >
>> > i. Sancho V RAMIREZ King of Aragon was
>> >born in 1042. He died on 4 Jun
>> >1094 in Huesca. Acceded 1063. King of Pamplona 1076. Aragon was
>> >substantially expanded by conquest during his reign. Who was the mother of
>> >the two children, born before his marriage?
>> > 21 ii. Sancha.
>> >
>> Sancha of Aragon, dau. of Ramiro I and Gilberga, married
>> Pons of Toulouse, d. ca 1063, the son of Pons II William and his
>> first wife, Marjorie.
>>
>
>Is this from ES? I looked at several of Vajay's published works, and in
>them she is given as husband only Ermengol III of Urgel, although the
>marriage date (ca. 1063) is consistant with her marrying him as a widow
>of this young Pons. I also note that Almodis was involved in the
>government of Toulouse following the death of Pons II, suggesting a
>blood relationship to the young Counts William and Raymond.
>
(1) Ponce, Count of Toulouse, d. 1060; m. (2) circa 1065,
Armengol III, Count of Urgel, d, Feb/Mar 1065. (Must have been
a brief second marriage.)
Then, again, in ES iii, 763, "Counts of Toulouse," Pons, d.
circa 1063, m. Sancha, Infanta of Aragon, d. 1072, dau. of King
Ramiro I (Sancha m. (2) circa 1065 Armengol III, Count of Urgel,
d. Feb/Mar 1065).
>
>
>> 38 Foulques III "Nerra" of Anjou Count. Born circa
>> 970/971. Died 21 Jun 1040 in Metz, France. Count of Anjou
>> {986-}.
>> 39 Hildegarde of Lotharingia. Born circa 964/974 in
>> France. Died 1 Apr 1046 in Jerusalem, Holy Land.
>
>
>I have seen several sources identify her as "of Lorraine" or "of Metz"
>but none provide a parentage. Do you have anything for this? If not,
>then how solid is the toponym?
>
>taf
I also have seen Gordon Fisher's post citing Bernard
Bachrach's book, "Fulk Nerra," especially p. 100 and the
footnote on page 318, indicating Hildegarde's royal birth and
origins in Lorraine.
Curiously enough my toponym, "of Lotharingia," also comes
from Bachrach"s "Fulk Nerra." In the genealogical table on p.
262 she is listed as "Hildegarde of Lotharingia." On p. 123 we
have the sentence "Countess Hildegarde's royal relatives in
Lotharingia were also to be considered a factor in the east."
On p. 166, "In addition, Nicholas was strong in Lotharingia, the
homeland of Fulk's wife, the countess Hildegarde, who was of
royal blood." On p. 222, "In a notice drawn up by the nuns [of
Ronceray] sometime between 1040 and 1045 they wrote:'God-fearing
and most pious of countesses, Lady Hildegarde, born of royal
stock, who evidently as we believe and is manifested in things,
God, the founder of all things, led from the Lotharingian
territories to these western borders of the lands in order to
restore those churches which were devastated in the past.'"
On p. 248, however, Bachrach says "On returning to Europe
from the Holy Land late in the spring of 1040, Fulk proceeded
north and east to Lorraine. This was the homeland of his wife,
Countess Hildegard, . . ."
This sent me to my trusty Encyclopaedia Brittanica to look
up Lotharingia to find out just where this land might be. I was
greeted with "(See Lorraine.)" Then, under "Lorraine," I was
told that the original form of the name was "Lotharingia".
Various divisions of Lotharingia became known as Upper and Lower
Lorraine. (The name comes from Lothair II, son of Lothair I.
Lothair II became king of Lotharingia, and his brother, Louis II
became king of Italy. Both had been the domain of Lothair I
after his father,Louis I "the Pious," divided the Frankish
territory into three parts.)
The history aside, there doesn't appear to be a
contradiction between calling Hildegarde "of Lotharingia" or "of
Lorraine" during that time period. During the times when Upper
and Lower Lorraine were under one ruler the whole was referred
to as Lotharingia, the older name.
Gordon Fisher
I was going to add to my little contribution that Lotharingia = Lorraine,
which I somehow already knew. But I forgot, I guess. Or maybe just assumed
Todd Farmerie would know, and acted as if I was talking only to him. Bad
acting!
My assumption about Todd's question was that he was questioning whether or
not there was good evidence that Hildegarde came from the region called
Lorraine in French and Lotharingia in German (or Latinized German? or
Germanized Latin?)
Gordon Fisher gfi...@shentel.net
BRUSH FIRE
I have a question: Henry of Navarre became King of France on the death of
King Henry III childless. He had previously been married to Marguerite de
Valois, daughter of King Henry II and Catherine de Medici, and sister of
Henry IIIetc. However, they were either divorced or it was annulled, and
yet Henry of Navarre became King. I've traced the family tree back, and
you have to take a _very_ meandering path to find Henry....going right
back to St. Louis!
I can't believe that people went to that much trouble back in the 16th
century: so did he take France by Force, or by virtue of his marriage to
Marguerite?
Michelle
*****************************************************************************
Michelle Murphy | "Every man has two names: the one
3rd year Business Studies student | he is given, and the one he wins
Trinity College Dublin | for himself"
E-mail: mmu...@alf2.tcd.ie | - "Merlin" (Stephen Lawhead)
Web: http://www3.tcd.ie/~mmurphy |
| "Running away only wears out your
Treasurer of TCD Sci Fi Society | shoes"
*Largest, most active society* | - Delboy, "Only Fools and Horses"
****************************************************************************
DavidBotts
Hi:
Henry is in the Botts database of all relations to any member of the
greater Botts family. Would be interested in how you relate and what you
have.
Thanks,
Dave Botts
the Botts Researcher
Please reply back to
David Bo...@aol.com
Todd A. Farmerie
BRUSH FIRE wrote:
>
> I can't believe that people went to that much trouble back in the 16th
> century: so did he take France by Force, or by virtue of his marriage to
> Marguerite?
families of Capetian descent fell in the succession was well known, and
he was known to be the heir. However, he was <gasp> a Protestant, and
ended up having to put up a bit of a struggle. It was not until his
conversion that his succession was solidified.
taf
D. Spencer Hines
Yes, and this opportunistic conversion to Roman Catholicism, by Henri
IV, is well encapsulated in the quotation attributed to him, "Paris
vaut bien une messe." [Paris is well worth a Mass.] Other sources
attribute the quote to Henri's minister Sully. [Bartlett's Familiar
Quotations, Fifteenth Edition; (1980) p. 174]
--
D. Spencer Hines --- "The final happiness of man consists in the
contemplation of truth....This is sought for its own sake, and is
directed to no other end beyond itself." Saint Thomas Aquinas,
[1224/5-1274] "Summa Contra Gentiles" [c.1258-1264]
BRUSH FIRE
> In fact they did take the trouble. The order in which the various
> families of Capetian descent fell in the succession was well known, and
> he was known to be the heir. However, he was <gasp> a Protestant, and
> ended up having to put up a bit of a struggle. It was not until his
> conversion that his succession was solidified.
>
> taf
Thanks, Taf..... I was actually wondering after I wrote that post if they
had a system like the Irish "tanaiste" where at each stage, the heirs
apparent were known, and therefore the Navarre family's claim was well
known at all times.
I assume from looking at genealogical data that the Salic law was only
enforced in France proper, and was not recognised in Brittany, Navarre,
Savoy, etc
Was there ever opposition from the family of a female heir? From what I
can see, it was quite common for the next male heir to actually marry the
female, such as Claude daughter of Louis XI (who married two Kings of
France)....
SEEpstein
The only case I know where the actual female heir made her own claim, was
that of Henry ! of England'ss daughter Maud/Matilda. She fought civil
wars against Stephen of BLois. Her father had barons swear loyalty to
her, but after his death, half turned to her cousin. He was already
married, to another Maud/Matilda. The war ended when Stephn agreed that
Matilda's son would be the next heir --
Elaine elaine...@juno.com
Todd A. Farmerie
BRUSH FIRE wrote:
>
> > In fact they did take the trouble. The order in which the various
> > families of Capetian descent fell in the succession was well known, and
> > he was known to be the heir. However, he was <gasp> a Protestant, and
> > ended up having to put up a bit of a struggle. It was not until his
> > conversion that his succession was solidified.
> >
> > taf
>
> Thanks, Taf..... I was actually wondering after I wrote that post if they
> had a system like the Irish "tanaiste" where at each stage, the heirs
> apparent were known, and therefore the Navarre family's claim was well
> known at all times.
>
> I assume from looking at genealogical data that the Salic law was only
> enforced in France proper, and was not recognised in Brittany, Navarre,
> Savoy, etc
I think it is generally accepted that the "Salic Law" in France derived
from the younger sons of Philip IV depriving their niece Jeanne of the
crown after the death of her infant brother John (she was able to retain
Navarre, which was an entirely separate kingdom, and already had a
tradition of succession through female lines). The law was applied to
justify the power-grab, rather than being the motivation for their
take-over. (At the time of the previous succession squabble, the male
line, in the person of the King's uncle, was passed over in favor of an
entirely unrelated noble.
> Was there ever opposition from the family of a female heir?
Well, the Hundred Years War was framed around a claim by Edward III, as
maternal grandson of Philip IV, to the French thrown (he conveniently
ignored the more senior line of Jeanne of Navarre), in opposition to the
succession of more removed male-line descendants. Later, Charles of
Navarre dabbled with a claim to the French thrown, but it never came to
anything.
(Interestingly, when Henry IV became King of France, he reunited the
Salic and senior non-Salic claims to the thrown.)
taf
Peter5471
Hello, I am Bill Zeller. and we may be searching on the same family, I am
supposd to be related to the de Valois, now the lady of whom I am
searching is named "lady Clothilde de Valois born in the 1660's married a
german preacher and came to America in 1710.. as I under stand her father
lived in the Aslance or Zweibrucken Germany or on the French side. Any
help would be wounderful.
Bill Zeller PETE...@aol.com thank you