Latin translation help, please
Coeurderoi
France. The beginning of it is standard for the time, but the phrase after it
is confusing, and I wonder if someone out there could help with it. The record
is:
baptizata est Mariae fillia Joannes Thibaud et Catherina Courtois, uti mihi
constitit ex testimonio vel potius commeatu a nuntio Regis francorum Leodii
concesso.
Pierre Coeurderoi
Annie Natalelli-Waloszek
This is mere dictionary poking but I'd make it out thus:
Maria is baptised, dau of John Thibaud and Catherine Courtois,
Which I have established from witnesses or better yet, as accorded
& passed on in declarations by the elect king of Franks, Leon
(however, there was to my Knowledge, no Leon, king of France ...
esp not in 1554...it was Henry II (1547-1559)
hope this helps
Annie
Here are the words to make your own interpretation:
uti= comme
mihi= me, moi
constitit= established, établir
commeatu=messager, passage, voyage, transport, permission
a nuntio= from announcements, annuncier, faire savoir, declarer
vel= ou, ou bien, ou si vous preferez; aussi; meme; surtout, en particulier, par exemple
potius=preferable, meilleur
concesso=has many meanings=Disparaitre, mourir, décéder but also partir, retirer & passer, echoir, se ranger à un avis...Choisir,
ceder; ne pas etre à l'hauteur, condescendre, faire concessions, consentir, se montrer indulgent, pardonner, souffrir, accorder,
avouer... but the word standing alone and out of context is given as Concesso : Cesser.Concessus : Concession, permission,
consentement
-----Message d'origine-----
De : Coeurderoi <coeur...@aol.com>
À : GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Date : vendredi 28 septembre 2001 09:27
Objet : Latin translation help, please
Annie Natalelli-Waloszek
baptizata est Mariae fillia Joannes Thibaud et Catherina Courtois, uti mihi
>constitit ex testimonio vel potius commeatu a nuntio Regis francorum Leodii
>concesso. (There was no Leon, king of France ... EVER, esp not in 1554...
it was Henry II (1547-1559)).
When translated = means your document is a fraud; Extreme CAVEAT, there
seem to be an awful lot of these, more or less intentional, all of a sudden being
foisted off un, (particularly, to me; but who's paranoid?) not legends or pieces
in progress but intentional red herrings... coeurderoi is an alias, right? similar to the
fellow posting herrings as lionhouse? are these aliases leo uses to blackhand some
while obstensibly "helping" others? what is this, lessons in Mediciland politics?
Nobody needs this sort of gameplaying; you'll destroy confidence, & thus the list...
perhaps this is your intent?
whether you're the perpetrator or the victim of this one, remains to be seen...
gives the impression that only pranksters & hine's henchmen are posting anymore...
Let' see some action from some real genealogy buffs out there... who don't
feel they need to put others down, to be worth something on their own...
Be it noted also that Sicambrian Franks -- from whom France acquired it's name,
were themselves so called after their chief, Fancio, who died in 11 B.C.; after
them came the Merovingians, still occasionally called Franks, but the tribes
blended with the Gauls and the term shouldn't be showing up much by 16th
cent, IIRC.
Annie
-----Message d'origine-----
De : Coeurderoi <coeur...@aol.com>
Ą : GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Chris Phillips
> baptizata est Mariae fillia Joannes Thibaud et Catherina Courtois, uti
mihi
> constitit ex testimonio vel potius commeatu a nuntio Regis francorum
Leodii
> concesso.
Annie Natalelli-Waloszek replied:
> Maria is baptised, dau of John Thibaud and Catherine Courtois,
> Which I have established from witnesses or better yet, as accorded
> & passed on in declarations by the elect king of Franks, Leon
> (however, there was to my Knowledge, no Leon, king of France ...
> esp not in 1554...it was Henry II (1547-1559)
I must admit I can't follow the Latin grammar here, but I think Annie's
translation must reflect the gist of it - except I think "Leodii" may be a
place name here: Liege in Belgium.
Would it make sense if the child had been baptised at Liege?
Chris Phillips
Annie Natalelli-Waloszek
but if so, how comes it a king of a single city?
or are you saying they'd indicate the king of
France making an announcement at Liège...
without stating the name of the king? never did that...
on the other hand, there are provinces of
spain and francy called Leon... (but nothing resembling
Leodii), which would have kings & fit the phrase...
-----Message d'origine-----
De : Chris Phillips <cgp...@cgp100.dabsol.co.uk>
À : GEN-ME...@RootsWeb.com <GEN-ME...@RootsWeb.com>
Cc : coeur...@aol.com <coeur...@aol.com>; Xan...@Wanadoo.fr <Xan...@Wanadoo.fr>
Date : vendredi 28 septembre 2001 14:28
Objet : Re: Latin translation help, please
The Bibliographer
Annie Natalelli-Waloszek <Xan...@Wanadoo.fr> wrote:
>I dont really see how you get Leodii as Liège,
>but if so, how comes it a king of a single city?
>>> constitit ex testimonio vel potius commeatu a nuntio Regis francorum
>>Leodii
>>> concesso.
Not king, but nuncio. Yes, Leodis [Leodiensis] is Liege. The grammar is
poor, but it clear that the faculty in question was granted by the nuncio
Georgius de Austria [yes, THAT family], who was archbishop of Liege as
well as of Valencia just in 1554. See Eubel, vol. III, ss.vv. <Leodien.>
and <Valentin.>. See also Pius Bonifacius Gams, <Series Episcoporum...>.
--
Regards, Frank Young
tip...@wam.umd.edu 703-527-7684
Post Office Box 2793, Kensington, Maryland 20891
"Videmus nunc per speculum in aenigmate... Nunc cognosco ex parte"
Annie Natalelli-Waloszek
I thought it was to be interepreted as if nuncio
was message, or messenger, OF the king so and do...
& I thought nuncios were just for popes...
at Liège? so is there a ref with the latin equivalents of placenames?
Or do you just have to have previously stumbled over it & looked foolish till
someone told you? That'll teach me to try to help with other people's lines
that have placenames & latin phrases I'm not familiar with already...
They say that's how you grow!
"but it is clear that the faculty in question was granted by the nuncio
Georgius de Austria [yes, THAT family], who was archbishop of Liege as
well as of Valencia just in 1554"
Isnt it a little unusal to have one's baptism certified by the nuncio?
boy, I'd like to know how that was clear to you!
I can see where I should have read nuncio of the king rather than
message of the king, but knowing who might have been the
particular nuncio in question (am I correct in assuming they were
as numberless as angels (messangers)... & where you found
a list of clergy for the period; I cant even get a full list of popes
for the era!
Such is life!
Thanks for the additions!
Annie
What ref don't I have that I would have needed if having
this sort of placenames & clergy problems, more frequently?
-----Message d'origine-----
De : The Bibliographer <tip...@wam.umd.edu>
À : GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Date : vendredi 28 septembre 2001 17:28
Objet : Re: Latin translation help, please
Chris Phillips
> I dont really see how you get Leodii as Liège,
> but if so, how comes it a king of a single city?
> France making an announcement at Liège...
> without stating the name of the king? never did that...
Liege is certainly "Leodium" in Latin
(http://www.columbia.edu/acis/ets/Graesse/orblatl.html).
I'm hesitant about the grammar of the complete entry; the King of the Franks
is certainly in there, but possibly the implication is that the baptism took
place at Liege.
Chris Phillips
Chris Phillips
> at Liège? so is there a ref with the latin equivalents of placenames?
There are some online:
http://www.columbia.edu/acis/ets/Graesse/contents.html
Orbis Latinus, by Dr J.G.Th. Graesse (1909) (Columbia University)
http://www.catholic-history.org.uk/latin_names.htm
Modern equivalents of Latin place-names and Latin equivalents of modern
place-names in early printed books (Catholic History)
There are so many Latin texts online now that Google itself is quite a good
standby, too.
Chris Phillips
Francisco Antonio Doria
Chère Annie,
May I intrude?
> De : Chris Phillips <cgp...@cgp100.dabsol.co.uk>
> À : GEN-ME...@RootsWeb.com
> <GEN-ME...@RootsWeb.com>
> Cc : coeur...@aol.com <coeur...@aol.com>;
> Xan...@Wanadoo.fr <Xan...@Wanadoo.fr>
> Date : vendredi 28 septembre 2001 14:28
> Objet : Re: Latin translation help, please
>
>
> a
> nuntio Regis francorum
> >Leodii
> >> concesso.
by the envoy of the king of Franks [at] Liège
established.
a nuntio Regis... could also be: by the order of the
King... A stands for ab, GK apò.
chico
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Cajun007
commeatu a nuntio Regis francorum Leodii concesso", can be translated "as to
me it is established from the testimony or rather a communication from the
messenger of the King of France granted in Liege". I've seen documents similar
to this and what the parish priest is probably trying to get across is that the
child was not baptized by him ( possibly in a military camp) and a messenger
brought a copy of the baptism from elsewhere, maybe a troop pastor, to be
entered in the closest parish book or just to prove that a child had indeed
been baptized. I've seen this often in my years of genealogy. You say that
the town in question was in Northern France, and some of what is now that part
of France was under the jurisdiction of the bishops of Liege, especially the
area near modern day Belgium. Translating documents like this can be tricky,
since classical Latin and church Latin (indeed Medieval Latin, too!) are often
very different. In this instance, "nuntio" can literally be a messenger, but in
Medieval church Latin, "nuntio" was also used to denote ambassador or
representative. Commeatu in classical Latin is usually used for the military
"leave or permission of absence" or a convoy. However, In church Latin,
commeatu actually comes from the Medieval Latin word, commeatio, meaning
communication, commeatio being derived from the classical commeatu. Regis
francorum, has commonly been used for the King of France since early Medieval
dates up to the time of the French Revolution. Although literally meaning King
of Franks, it very obviously can't be taken in that context during the 1500s.
Leodii concesso means granted in Liege. Leodium = Liege and Leodii = "in"
Liege. It could mean either the city of Liege, or the large area that was
controlled by the bishops. France had troops stationed in the area of Liege
for hundreds of years. Hope this helps with your research. Narcisse Lagoute
Coeurderoi
<< When translated = means your document is a fraud ....................<<
coeurderoi is an alias, right? >>
After doing several years of genealogy on my Canadian ancestors, I have several
lines that I have just traced back beyond 1600. I asked for help in
translating a Latin record and a million thanks to those who answered and
helped. But what kind of response is this from Annie Natalelli-Waloszek, daring
to judge my ancestor's baptism entry a fraud. And no, Coeurderoi ( in old
records spelled Coeurderoy) is not an alias, it is a family name, my line
coming from St Leu, near Senlis. Why would this be an alias? This is the
first time I am going into a group like this, so I don't understand the venom
that this response contains. Can you explain what I did incorrectly to deserve
an aswer like this? In the future I am sure I will be asking more questions and
I would like to know how I can avoid being attacked for asking such simple
questions. Thank you. Pierre Coeurderoi
Coeurderoi
ou vous l'avez inventé? >>
Ma mere n'a pas donne notre nom de famille! Nous ne sommes pas des batards!
Mes parents se sont maries!!! Mon parrain, le frere de mon pere m'a donne le
nom. Il s'appelle Pierre Coeurderoi aussi.
My mother didn't give us our surname! We are not illegitimate! My parents are
married. My godfather, the brother of my father, gave me my name. He is also
called Pierre Coeurderoi. What is wrong with this course woman accusing my
mother of being umarried at my birth! And only after making one innocent
question to this group. Pierre Coeurderoi
D. Spencer Hines
Annie is the class nut here.
Please don't pay her any heed.
Sefton: [William Holden] "One more word. If I ever run into any of you
bums on a street corner, just let's pretend we never met before.
Understand?"... Only in a democracy can a poor guy get his keister shot
off with a rich guy." ---- Stalag 17 [1953] Billy Wilder & Edwin Blum.
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly. All original
material contained herein is copyright and property of the author. It
may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an attribution
to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly given, in
writing.
------------------
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor.
"Coeurderoi" <coeur...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010928193707...@mb-cv.aol.com...
David R Teague
First, welcome to the group!
Second, the majority of the people here are serious students of the topic
(with various degrees of earnestness, erudition, and experience in the
various disciplines helpful to an interest in medieval genealogy).
Third, and finally, the majority of the people here are usually willing
to share ideas and to help others -- although they are not necessarily
willing to do the bulk of other people's research for them. Sadly, there
are a few people here who "don't play well with others," as we say in the
U.S.
Please don't judge all of us by responses which may not have been worded
as carefully as they probably should have been.
David Teague
(a descendant of Charles Le Mar, whose immediate ancestors came to
Maryland from France before 1700)
________________________________________________________________
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Francisco Antonio Doria
Yest. I agree with this translation for commeatu ab
nuntio Regis...
I didn't know that it was a formula; I just went
through the Latin text.
chico
--- Cajun007 <caju...@aol.com> escreveu: > The
_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Annie Natalelli-Waloszek
so it's strange to see you answering it.
I'm shocked and surprised to see this fellow, on
his first posting to this group, so thouroughly
misunderstand my good will & efforts... and turn
around and insult as a coarse woman, for having
bothered to look up his stupid question. Get a dictionary
yourself and look it up, you coarse turkey!
I had assumed that your mother gave you the name
by marrying your father, fool.
You assumed I was talking about bastardy because
others on the list are trying to create an insolent
climate by harping on the subject with Bronwen...
That Dave Teague jumps in and is delighted to impugne to
me the base motives and actions of other males like him,
is only moderately surprising... I have never seen anyone
on this list really trouble themselves much with making sure
of what they're talking about. He uses the example
of children not playing well, because he's still in kindergarten.
I personally am not a child, not playing, and not amused.
I'd said coeurderoi was a nice name; if that's insulting,
I take it back; it's a dorky, hypocritical name...
now you have something to be offended about.
Sincerely,
Annie
-----Message d'origine-----
De : David R Teague <davt...@juno.com>
À : GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Date : samedi 29 septembre 2001 03:15
Objet : Re: Latin translation help, please
Annie Natalelli-Waloszek
which the querent could have given himself the effort of looking up
rather than monopolizing the list for an insignificant baptism record
and then insulting the person starting the discussion?
& Im surprised that nobody dealt with the rather self-assured person
affirming with authority that it was an archibishop he knew personally
from 1554, who was the nuncio in question... imagine for a second
that it had been I, who posted that!
isnt there anything interesting to deal with?
-----Message d'origine-----
De : Cajun007 <caju...@aol.com>
Ą : GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Date : samedi 29 septembre 2001 00:27
Objet : Re: Latin translation help, please
Chris Phillips
> The translation of the phrase "uti mihi constitit ex testimonio vel potius
> commeatu a nuntio Regis francorum Leodii concesso", can be translated "as
to
> me it is established from the testimony or rather a communication from the
> messenger of the King of France granted in Liege".
Many thanks for that - as always, it all makes perfect sense when it's
expounded word for word.
Chris Phillips
Coeurderoi
<< an insignificant baptism record
and then insulting the person starting the discussion?
>>
This is a genealogy group. It is not an "insignificant baptism record" to me
since it is an ancestor I am trying to trace, and with the help of others, I
have become closer to find more information on that family. Isn't that one of
the points of sharing information? Pierre Coeurderoi
Coeurderoi
by marrying your father, fool >>
Never assume anything in genealogy without proof.
<< I'd said coeurderoi was a nice name; >>
<< I take it back; it's a dorky, hypocritical name...
now you have something to be offended >>
The fact that you don't like my surname doesn't offend me at all, but I see
that you do indeed have a split personality, and for that, you have my most
sincere sentiments. Pierre Coeurderoy
<< I take it back; it's a dorky, hypocritical name...
now you have something to be offended >>
<< I'd said coeurderoi was a nice name; >>
Matthew Harley
Coeurderoi wrote:
>
> This is a genealogy group. It is not an "insignificant baptism record" to me
> since it is an ancestor I am trying to trace, and with the help of others, I
> have become closer to find more information on that family. Isn't that one of
> the points of sharing information? Pierre Coeurderoi
Try and not take Annie's boorishness to heart.
She is, as they say around here:
"pas un franc entier."
Matt Harley
Annie Natalelli-Waloszek
might do better than him, in the local sewer...
no wonder a girl looses her sense of humour around here!
NOTE the subject line; translation help please... next time, dont ask!
According to the theories of taf, nat, hines, et al,
calling you a fraud is SUPPOSED to make you prove its not one,
giving you the chance to show your stuff...
so far, you've behaved like a whining child, crawling into the arms
of any slime that smiles and offers you candy... & that seems to have
been MUCH better recieved than my original search, generous contributions,
& trying to help...so maybe that's what I should do... thanks for the tip!
beware that nat is one of those who likes to call people frauds
and you're taking him for a friend...So, then, I guess you have no objection to the
practice of wanton accusations of fraud! so stop slobbering!
hmmm, perhaps they really have pushed me beyond the limits...
I think I owe them something nasty, but what could possibly compare?
I'm relying on you all -- all those who have suffered humiliation at the hands
of these conniving, hypocritical geeks, to give them all a good solid dose of their own.
oh, and somebody please translate for me, how any of this has been in the least
educational or beneficial, to ME... because I too, whine... my life and feelings count;
you have NO RIGHT to make your fun of trampling over my work or dignity,
Goddam you for it! each and every one of you who finds it so much fun!
and render it unto you hundredfold!
but of course, just for fun! this is all just fun! & serious research of course!
De : Matthew Harley <har...@eircom.net>
>Try and not take Annie's boorishness to heart. (MY? what about yours? what heart? I haven't seen any heart around here....!)
>She is, as they say around here: (who? you?)>
>"pas un franc entier." (I'm not a franc at all, buddy...)
>Matt Harley
Matthew Harley
Annie Natalelli-Waloszek wrote:
> >Try and not take Annie's boorishness to heart.
> >She is, as they say around here:
> >"pas un franc entier."
> I'm not a franc at all, buddy...
I'm sure France is very relieved.
Matt Harley