Gallo-Roman ancestors of Charlemagne
Jim Larson
In NEGHR vol. 101 (April 1947) David Kelley wrote an article entitled "A New
Consideration of the Carolingians,' in which he proposed a descent in the
female lines from Afranius Syagrius, consul in 381, to Charlemagne. G.
Andrews Moriarty in his "Plantagenet Ancestry" calls this line 'very
problematical.'
Has any further research been done on this line? What is the current
opinion of this?
Thanks,
Jim Larson
Leo van de Pas
Reines et Imperatrices Francaises"?
Afranius Syagrius is mentioned in this book, but without a continuing
line of descent. However, on page 37 is mentioned Pogatius Adgandestrius
Roman Senator.
His daughter
Adgandestria married Chlocdemir I, King in Worms
their son
Chloderic, King in Worms, married Clodonde, daughter of Cariaric, King of
the Franks, son of Pharamond (War-Munt) King of the Franks
their son
Chlodomir II, King of the Germans in Worms (490-532) married Arnegonde
of Saxony
their daughter
Ingonde (510-after 546) married Clothar I, King of Neustria
from here a line can be continued to the present, but not to Charlemagne.
Can anyone advise how reliable this book is?
Leo van de Pas
Don Stone
Jim Larson wrote:
>
> In NEGHR vol. 101 (April 1947) David Kelley wrote an article entitled "A New
> Consideration of the Carolingians,' in which he proposed a descent in the
> female lines from Afranius Syagrius, consul in 381, to Charlemagne. G.
> Andrews Moriarty in his "Plantagenet Ancestry" calls this line 'very
> problematical.'
>
> Has any further research been done on this line? What is the current
> opinion of this?
Jim:
Here is a probable descent from Flavius Afranius Syagrius,
based primarily on Settipani's 1989 book Les Ancetres de
Charlemagne, supplemented by various other sources. This
chart is designed to be displayed or printed with a fixed-
width font.
PROBABLE DESCENT FROM FLAVIUS AFRANIUS SYAGRIUS TO CHARLEMAGNE:
Gen. 1.
Flavius Afranius Syagrius of =
Lyons; a Gallo-Roman |
senator, i.e., of paternal |
Roman descent; Proconsul |
Africae, 379; Praefectus |
Urbis Romae, 381; selected |
by the emperor Gratian as |
Consul for 382 (serving with |
Antonius); Praefectus |
Praetorio Italiae, 382; a |
poet. He was buried beneath |
an imposing monument at the |
city gate of Lyons, "not |
quite a full bowshot" from |
the church, and a statue of |
him was erected in the city. |
---------------|
Gen. 2. |
________ Ferreolus = ________, clarissima femina
|
|---------------
Gen. 3. |
Tonantius Ferreolus; = Papianilla, clarissima
Praefectus Praetorio | femina, a relative of
Galliarum, 451-452/3, during | Sidonius Apollinaris's wife
which time Attila the Hun | Papianilla (a daughter of
was defeated at the Battle | the emperor Avitus);
of the Catalaunian Plains | Ferreolus's wife was a
(Chalons); his diplomacy | partner who shared his
ended the siege of Arles by | troubles, according to
the Visigothic king | Sidonius.
Thorismodus; he served in |
Rome in 469 as a delegate to |
the trial of Arvandus; a |
Gallo-Roman senator with two |
known estates, Prusianum (on |
the Gardon, near Nimes) and |
Trevidos (perhaps near |
Rodez). |
|---------------
Gen. 4. |
Tonantius Ferreolus; vir = Industria
clarissimus; a senator of |
Narbonne; visited by his |
cousin St. Apollinaris of |
Valence in 517. |
|---------------
Gen. 5. |
Ferreolus; a senator in the = Dode; abbess of St.-Pierre
Narbonne region. | de Rheims.
|---------------
Gen. 6. |
Ansbert; a senator. = Bilichilde (?).
|
|---------------
Gen. 7. |
Arnoald; Bishop of Metz, =
601-611. |
- - - - - - - -|
Gen. 8. |
St. Arnulf; domesticus; a = Dode, probably a dau.
counselor of King Chlothar | of Arnoald.
II and of the young Dagobert |
I; Bishop of Metz, ca. |
613-629; d. 640. |
|---------------
Gen. 9. |
Ansegisel; vir inlustris, = St. Begga; daughter of
domesticus; d. betw. 648 and | Pippin I, Mayor of the
669, perhaps 662. | Palace in Austrasia; founder
| and abbess of Andenne, 691;
| d. 693.
|---------------
Gen. 10. |
Pippin II of Herstal; b. ca. = Alpais or Alpaida, probably
645; Mayor of the Palace in | a secondary wife.
Austrasia; d. 714. |
|---------------
Gen. 11. |
Charles Martel; Mayor of (1)= Rotrude; d. 724.
the Palace in Austrasia; b. |
ca. 690; halted the Muslim |
invasion of Europe at |
Poitiers in 732; d. 741. |
|---------------
Gen. 12. |
Pippin III the Short; Mayor = Bertha of Laon; d. 783.
of the Palace of Austrasia; |
b. ca. 715; deposed the last |
of the Merovingian kings and |
became first king of the |
Franks of the second race, |
ruling from 751 until his |
death in 768. |
|---------------
Gen. 13. |
Charlemagne, King of France;
b. 747 or 748, acc. 768, d.
813/4; crowned Holy Roman
Emperor in 800.
NOTES (by generation):
Gen. 1. Settipani (1989) is the principal authority for this
chart. A number of years ago Kelley (1947) investigated the
connection with Syagrius in detail, utilizing a ninth-century
pedigree of Charlemagne (but rejecting its clearly incorrect
claim that St. Arnulf, Bishop of Metz, was the son of
Arnoald, Bishop of Metz) and also drawing on various saints'
lives. (Kelley now concurs with Settipani's revised version
of this pedigree.) Jarnut (1986, pp. 14-22) has also
explored this connection.
Flavius was the given name, Afranius was the family name, and
Syagrius was a cognomen meaning "wild boar" (Moriarty, 1956).
See, however, Bagnall, et al. (1987, pp. 36, ff.), on the use
of the name Flavius as a courtesy title. There were two
different consuls named Syagrius in two successive years, 381
and 382. The consul of 381 was a friend and correspondent of
Symmachus, the noted orator and vigorous defender of the
pagan religion. The consul of 382 was probably the one who
was the maternal grandfather of Tonantius Ferreolus; he may
also have been the Syagrius who was a pupil and friend of the
poet Ausonius. Ausonius was the head of a famous school at
Bordeaux, was selected by emperor Valentinian as tutor for
his son (the future emperor) Gratian, and was prefect of the
Gauls in 378 and consul in 379 under Gratian; a number of his
relatives and friends held various high imperial offices (Van
Dam, 1985, p. 304). Each of these two Syagrii held a number
of offices besides consul, and determining which office goes
with which Syagrius is somewhat difficult. A relatively
plausible scenario is given in Jones, et al. (1971),
following Martindale (1967). Demandt (1971) proposes a
somewhat different assignment of offices to the Syagrii, but
later reviews (e. g., Bagnall, et al., 1987, p. 649, and
Errington, 1992, note 109) point out that Demandt probably
misinterpreted a comment of Mitteis, an earlier researcher.
The office of consul had great prestige and was eagerly
sought by Roman citizens. In the second half of the fourth
century it was usually attained as the culmination of a
distinguished career (Bagnall, et al., 1987, p. 3); at this
time it was largely an honorary office with minimal political
responsibilities.
Gen. 3. Details on Tonantius Ferreolus's offices come from
Martindale (1980). Additional information is supplied by
Stevens (1933) and Harries (1994). Settipani (1989 and 1991,
pp. 198-9) says that Ferreolus's wife Papianilla was probably
a niece of the emperor Avitus. Harries (1994, p. 34, n. 30)
says that she was a generation older, perhaps a sister or
cousin of Avitus, while Mommaerts and Kelley (1992, pp. 112-
3) propose that she might be a generation younger.
Gen. 8. For a thorough discussion of the tentative connection
between generations 7 and 8, see Settipani (1989).
Gen. 9. Ansegisel is sometimes referred to as Mayor of the
Palace, but Settipani and Van Kerrebrouck (1993, p. 151)
point out that this is not attested by any contemporaneous
source and thus can't be relied on.
Gen. 10. Gerberding (1987) provides a detailed analysis of
the status of Alpaida and the political significance of her
union with Pippin.
Gen. 11. Rotrude's possible descent from Syagrius, great-
grandson of Flavius Afranius Syagrius, is given by Settipani
(1989), but see also Settipani's more recent comments (1990,
pp. 20-3).
Gen. 13. Most modern authorities give Charlemagne's birth year
as 747, but Settipani and Van Kerrebrouck (1993) give 748; see
their detailed analysis in note 3, p. 191.
SOURCES OF INFORMATION:
Bagnall, R. S., A. Cameron, S. R. Schwartz, and K. A. Worp.
1987. Consuls of the Later Roman Empire. Philological
Monographs of the American Philological Association, Number
36. Atlanta: Scholars Press.
Demandt, A. 1971. "Die Konsuln der Jahr 381 und 382 namens
Syagrius." Byzantinische Zeitschrift 64: 38-45.
Errington, R. M. 1992. "The Praetorian Prefectures of
Virius Nicomachus Flavianus." Historia 41: 439-461.
Gerberding, Richard A. 1987. The Rise of the Carolingians
and the Liber Historiae Francorum. Oxford: Clarendon Press.
Harries, Jill. 1994. Sidonius Apollinaris and the Fall of
Rome, AD 407-485. Oxford: Clarendon Press.
Jarnut, Jorg. 1986. Agilolfingerstudien: Untersuchungen zur
Geschichte Einer Adligen Familie im 6. und 7. Jahrhundert.
Stuttgart: Anton Hiersemann.
Jones, A. H. M., J. R. Martindale, and J. Morris. 1971. The
Prosopography of the Later Roman Empire. Vol. I: A.D. 260-
395. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
Kelley, David H. 1947. "Genealogical Research in Europe: A
New Consideration of the Carolingians." New England
Historical and Genealogical Register 101: 109-112.
Martindale, J. R. 1967. "Note on the Consuls of 381 and
382." Historia 16: 254-256.
Martindale, J. R. 1980. The Prosopography of the Later
Roman Empire. Vol. II: A.D. 395-527. Cambridge: Cambridge
University Press.
Mommaerts, T. S., and D. H. Kelley. 1992. "The Anicii of
Gaul and Rome." In Fifth-century Gaul: a Crisis of Identity?
ed. by John Drinkwater and Hugh Elton. Cambridge: Cambridge
University Press.
Moriarty, G. Andrews. 1956. "Genealogical Research in
Europe: The Syagrii." New England Historical and
Genealogical Register 110: 38-40.
Schwennicke, Detlev. 1980. Europaische Stammtafeln. Band
I. Marburg: J. A. Stargardt.
Settipani, Christian. 1989. Les ancetres de Charlemagne.
Paris: Editions Christian.
Settipani, Christian. 1990. "Les ancetres de Charlemagne:
addenda et corridenda." Histoire et Genealogie 28: 19-36.
Settipani, Christian. 1991. "Ruricius Ier eveque de Limoges
et ses relations familiales." Francia 18/1: 195-222.
Settipani, Christian, and Patrick Van Kerrebrouck. 1993. La
prehistoire des Capetiens 481-987. Premiere partie:
Merovingiens, Carolingiens et Robertiens. Villeneuve d'Ascq
(France): P. Van Kerrebrouck.
Stevens, C. E. 1933. Sidonius Apollinaris and his Age.
Oxford: Clarendon Press.
Van Dam, Raymond. 1985. Leadership and Community in Late
Antique Gaul. Berkeley: University of California Press.
-- Don Stone
Francisco Antonio Doria
I've been deleted (again!) from the list, so I'm sending this one again.
>
> >In NEGHR vol. 101 (April 1947) David Kelley wrote an article entitled "A New
> >Consideration of the Carolingians,' in which he proposed a descent in the
> >female lines from Afranius Syagrius, consul in 381, to Charlemagne. G.
> >Andrews Moriarty in his "Plantagenet Ancestry" calls this line 'very
> >problematical.'
> >Has any further research been done on this line? What is the current
> >opinion of this?
> >Thanks,
> >Jim Larson
> ......Does anyone know of :Jacques Saillot's "Les Seize Quartiers des
> Reines et Imperatrices Francaises"?
>
> Afranius Syagrius is mentioned in this book, but without a continuing
> line of descent. However, on page 37 is mentioned Pogatius Adgandestrius
> Roman Senator.
> His daughter
> Adgandestria married Chlocdemir I, King in Worms
> their son
> Chloderic, King in Worms, married Clodonde, daughter of Cariaric, King of
> the Franks, son of Pharamond (War-Munt) King of the Franks
> their son
> Chlodomir II, King of the Germans in Worms (490-532) married Arnegonde
> of Saxony
> their daughter
> Ingonde (510-after 546) married Clothar I, King of Neustria
> from here a line can be continued to the present, but not to Charlemagne.
> Can anyone advise how reliable this book is?
> Leo van de Pas
I'll say lots of things on that from memory, so there might be a few
mistakes (I don't have my books here wuth me).
1) No contemporaries of Arnulf mention his ancestry. As far as I can
recall, it is only said that they come from the mid-Rhineland, were very
wealthy (large possessions) and lived by Frankish law.
2) Contemporaries of Charlemagne have traced his male ancestry through
the Ferreoli, a noble senatorial Gallo-roman family. Unlikely, because,
as I said, Arnulf lived by the laws of the Franks.
3) The 17th century genealogy of the French royal house traces the Capets
from the Ferreoli through a side-branch of the Carolingians (via
Hildebrand/Childebrand). I don't quite recall who did it in the 1920's, I
think it was Le'on Le'villain who studied Hildebrand's family, the
historical Nibelungs, and exploded their Carolingian ancestry. It is very
tightly argued, in my opinion, and I could find no holes in that
discussion. (But I may have been led astray.)
4) A few years after that Gloeckner wrote his beautiful paper on the
counts of Wormsgau and the origin of the Capets. To me, that also settles
the question. Let me add that I once mentioned Gloeckner's paper to one
of our princes and he told me they start from Robert le Fort, period.
5) I'm not an expert, and so I don't follow the current literature, only
occasionaly. So, I don't know of any recent research on the Ferreoli, who
might have been in Charlemagne's ancestry.
6) Settipani recently claimed that the Arnulfings' male line went up to
Sigebert the Lame. Possible, I think.
Chico Doria
>
>
Todd A. Farmerie
Francisco Antonio Doria wrote:
>
> 3) The 17th century genealogy of the French royal house traces the Capets
> from the Ferreoli through a side-branch of the Carolingians (via
> Hildebrand/Childebrand). I don't quite recall who did it in the 1920's, I
> think it was Le'on Le'villain who studied Hildebrand's family,
Yes, that's who it was. The article was in Annals de Midi.
> 4) A few years after that Gloeckner wrote his beautiful paper on the
> counts of Wormsgau and the origin of the Capets. To me, that also settles
> the question. Let me add that I once mentioned Gloeckner's paper to one
> of our princes and he told me they start from Robert le Fort, period.
Do you have a more complete reference for Gloeckner? While it now seems
generally accepted, I have yet to see a well written presentation of the
arguments.
taf
Nathaniel Taylor
In article <980313130...@omega.lncc.br>, do...@omega.lncc.br
(Francisco Antonio Doria) wrote:
>3) The 17th century genealogy of the French royal house traces the Capets
>from the Ferreoli through a side-branch of the Carolingians (via
>Hildebrand/Childebrand). I don't quite recall who did it in the 1920's, I
>think it was Le'on Le'villain who studied Hildebrand's family, the
>historical Nibelungs, and exploded their Carolingian ancestry. It is very
>tightly argued, in my opinion, and I could find no holes in that
>discussion. (But I may have been led astray.)
I haven't read this Levillain article, but Settipani does support the
fraternity of Childebrand (founder of the Nibelungs) and Charles Martel in
_Préhistoire des Capétiens_, 159-61. The two references linking
Childebrand to Charles Martel and to Pippin the Short are found in the
continuation of Fredegar's chronicle, and seem unequivocal: he is called
Charles' 'germanus' and Pippin's 'avunculus'. 'Avunculus' has been made
much of (bu Levillain & others, cited by Settipani), as suggesting that
Childebrand could not have been an agnatic uncle of Pippin (i.e. son of
Pippin II along with Charles Martel); however, Settipani argues (and I
have been this argued recently in other cases by other scholars) that in
this period 'avunculus' was not always just used for 'brother of mother'
or 'uterine brother of father' but could also mean 'agnatic half-brother
of father' or even 'full brother of father'. Settipani cites Levillain's
article and discusses his objection to their *agnatic* fraternity, but if
'avunculus' can have been used more loosely (more loosely than 'germanus')
then the identity seems plausible.
>6) Settipani recently claimed that the Arnulfings' male line went up to
>Sigebert the Lame. Possible, I think.
Settipani scrupulously avoids this speculation in the _Préhistoire des
Capétiens_. Can you cite a specific article in which this appears?
Nat Taylor
Richard Borthwick
At 10:09 AM 13/03/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Francisco Antonio Doria wrote:
>>
>> 3) The 17th century genealogy of the French royal house traces the Capets
>> from the Ferreoli through a side-branch of the Carolingians (via
>> Hildebrand/Childebrand). I don't quite recall who did it in the 1920's, I
>> think it was Le'on Le'villain who studied Hildebrand's family,
>
>
>> 4) A few years after that Gloeckner wrote his beautiful paper on the
>> counts of Wormsgau and the origin of the Capets. To me, that also settles
>> the question. Let me add that I once mentioned Gloeckner's paper to one
>> of our princes and he told me they start from Robert le Fort, period.
>
>Do you have a more complete reference for Gloeckner? While it now seems
>generally accepted, I have yet to see a well written presentation of the
>arguments.
"Lorsch und Lothringen, Robertiner und Capetinger" by K Gloeckner in
*Zeitschrift fur die Geschichte des Oberrheins* 1936/37 vol.89, 301-354.
>taf
>
>