Sir Robert Willoughby 4th Baron de Eresby/Eresbie

[Johnno H]

Hi,
I am trying to resile what I see as differences between two publications.
re the above families.

Douglas Richardson in his Plantagenent Ancestry...." volume 2 shows Thomas
Willoughby son of Robert
Willoughby 4th Baron Willoughby de Eresby who married
Elizabeth Neville as 2nd son of Robert and his 1st wife Margarey de Zouche.
> http://books.google.com.au/books?id=kjme027UeagC&pg=PA324&lpg=PA324&dq=sir+thomas+de+friskney+daughter+katherine&source=bl&ots=quKnJD_eid&sig=
0UWxHBHAf-3C6t-ySACQqT8Y16k&hl=en&sa=X&ei=jtKXUu_kKoPpiAf1q4HICA&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=john%20willoughby%20jane%20howard&f=false
<

Whereas: A General and Heraldic Dictionary of the Peerage and Baronetage of
..., Volume 2 by Burke says:
Thomas Willoughby 3rd son of Robert Willoughby 4th Baron Willoughby de
Eresby by his 1st wife Alice nee Skipworth
(My note: Margarey de Zouche would then be his 2nd wife)

> http://books.google.com.au/books?id=yeo8AQAAIAAJ&pg=PA619&dq=john+willoughby+joan++howard&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DuGXUqmtOcTJkwXgpYHQBA&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=
john%20willoughby%20joan%20%20howard&f=false <

The royal descent of the Fosters of moulton also show that Willoughby +
Skipworth marriage at:
> https://archive.org/stream/cu31924029786229#page/n105/mode/2up <

So why the difference? has someone or myself got the various Robert's ,
Thomas's, John's mixed up.
Or am I looking at the wrong people or what?
Also which children were belonging to which wife (Skipworth/Zouche/Latimer)
as this is also confusing to me.
Looking at Sir Robert's Will of 5th June 19 Rich 2 (1395) doesnt help sort
them to particular wives.
++++++
Also in Sir Robert Willoughby 4th Baron de Eresby Will it says amongst other
things:

"To the Countess of Warwick a ring, set with a ruby and two diamonds which
belonged to my Lady Wake".

Can anyone extrapolate this statement so I can determine for sure who is the
Countess of Warwick and who is Lady Wake
(Willoughby/Holland/Wake etc) I have some thoughts, but they seem to be very
"iffy".

> https://archive.org/stream/earlylincolnwil00gibbgoog#page/n103/mode/2up <

His wife's Will is also immediately after his.
++++++
Also I have a John WILLOUGHBY supposedly a son of Sir Robert WILLOUGHBY
and his wife Blanche (nee CHAMPERNOUNE)
who married a Jane or Joan HOWARD, but I cant locate what any source for
this was, Sir Robert's Will shows a John in the list just prior to son
Brian, but doesn give any other details including a wife's name.
A son John is bequeathed six esquiells and six sawesers (I wonder what they
are?) marked Sir John de Rochefort, so Sir Robert had a son John, but is it
the John who married Joan/Jane HOward
(Douglas Richardson doesn't show him as a child of that Robert & Blanche
that I can see on internet portions, so can anyone enlighten me as to
whether
a John Willoughby married a Joan/Jane HOWARD and if so who were his and her
parents.

regards
Johnno H

[wjhonson]

http://www.wargs.com/family/mallory.html
157 Margery La Zouche
+ ... 18 Oct. 1391, bur. Spilsbury, Lincolnshire
[PBE 581; RMCA 886]

Note the exact death date

[Johnno H]

Hi Will,
I had that date for her burial, dont have any issue with that, its the other
things I have the issues with.
Are you saying she also died on that "exact date" namely 18/10/1391 ?

regards
Johnno H

"wjhonson" <wjho...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19536b9d-a22a-4f73...@googlegroups.com...

[wjhonson]

William the 5th Lord Eresby was "aged 24" in 1396

[Johnno H]

Hi Will,

William Willoughby 5th Baron Willoughby of Eresby, was as you say 24 in 1396
at death of Father, hence born c1372.
Margery was married to Robert before the date of 29/3/1372, so William could
be last child of Alice Skipworth if she was 1st wife OR 1st child of Margery
de Zouche
BUT the documents I quoted said in one he was 2nd child and the other 3rd
child which would not be accurate if they married in 1372 and he was born in
1372.
Also as there was son Thomas who was bequeathed a sword by his father in
his father's will of 1396 and who had divorced Katherine de FRISKNEY in 1381
and is shown as son of Robert (4th Baron)and Alice (nee SKIPWORTH), then
Thomas would have been an older son than William in 1396.
Also this son Thomas's then wife in 1396 according to Robert's (4th Baron)
Will of June 1395 was Elizabeth who would have been Elizabeth nee Neville
(2nd & last wife)and they would have married after 1381 divorce of Thomas
and Katherine de FRISKNEY
SO
That still doesnt answer what I asked re Alice Skipworth and Margarey Zouche
and Elizabeth Latimer etc
as to why some sources say Alice is 1st wife and others (like DR who say
Margery de Zouche is Robert's (4th Baron) 1st wife.

I just dont understand where you are coming from, I am apparently missing
something you are trying to say,
please elucidate what you are really getting at,
as I already had those two facts you replied with, which were in the urls I
inserted in my original posting.

Johnno H

"wjhonson" <wjho...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:3789f66a-915d-46df...@googlegroups.com...

[Les A Cox]

https://archive.org/stream/earlylincolnwil00gibbgoog#page/n106/mode/1up

I [pasted] this on a thread, .. if you scroll up a couple of pages it has several Willoughby wills.
I hope this helps.

Kind regards.

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Johnno ~

The following discussion addresses one of the issues raised in your initial post. As far as I can tell, Alice Skipwith, the alleged first wife of Robert de Willoughby, Knt., 4th Lord Willoughby of Eresby (died 1396) is utterly fictitious. For additional information on the Willoughby and Zouche families, please see my recently published book, Royal Ancestry (5 volume set) available for purchase through Amazon or eBay. DR

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

Complete Peerage 12 Pt. 2 (1959): 660-661 (sub Willoughby) has a good
account of the life of Robert de Willoughby, Knt. (died 1396), 4th
Lord Willoughby of Eresby. The author of Complete Peerage has the
following to say about Sir Robert de Willoughby's alleged three
marriages:

"He married, 1stly, in or before 1370, Alice. He married, 2ndly,
before 29 March 1372, Margery, daughter of William (la Zouche), 2nd
Lord Zouche (of Haryngworth), by Elizabeth, daughter of William (de
Ros), 2nd Lord Ros (of Helmsley). She died 18 Oct. 1391 and was
buried at Spilsby aforesaid (M.I.). [Her] will dated 11 Oct. at
Eresby, proved 7 Nov. 1391 at Stowe Park (Lincoln Reg.). He married,
3rdly, Elizabeth, de jure suo jure (according to modern doctrine)
Baroness Latimer, widow of John (de Neville), 3rd Lord Neville (of
Raby), daughter and heiress of William (de Latimer), 4th Lord Latimer,
by his wife Elizabeth. She died 5 Nov. 1395, and was probably buried
at Spilsby. [Her] will dated 18 Oct. at Eresby, directing burial at
Spilsby, proved 10 Nov. 1395 at Lincoln."

Complete Peerage assigns the first wife, Alice, as the mother of Sir
Robert's son and heir, William; his middle children, Robert, Thomas,
John, and Brian, are assigned as children of the second wife, Margery
la Zouche; and the last child, Margaret, is assigned as a child of the
third wife, Elizabeth Latimer.

This seems very straightforward. However, what evidence does Complete
Peerage provide for the first wife, Alice Skipwith? Here is what the
author says in footnote c on page 661:

"She [Alice] is said to have been a daughter of Sir William de
Skipwith, Chief Baron of the Exchequer, by Alice, daughter and heiress
of Sir William de Hiltoft, of Ingoldmells, Lincolnshire. See Nichols,
Hist. and Antiq. of co. Leicester, vol. iii, p. 369; Massingberd,
Hist. of Ormsby, pp.68-69, 92. The alleged descent of Skipwith from
Stuteville is discussed by C.T. Clay in Early Yorkshire Charters, vol.
ix, p.138."

I examined the first two sources given by the author of Complete
Peerage as evidence for Alice Skipwith's existence and marriage.
Both sources state without any documentation that Sir William de
Skipwith had a daughter, Alice, who married Robert de Willoughby, 4th
Lord Willoughby of Eresby. But did she exist?

These same two sources also indicate that Sir William de Skipwith had
a grandson, Thomas Skipwith, who married Margaret Willoughby of the
Eresby family. As best I can determine, if Alice Skipwith really was
the mother of Sir Robert de Willoughby's son and heir, William, this
would make Thomas Skipwith and Margaret Willoughby related in the 2nd
and 3rd degrees of kindred [i.e., first cousins once removed], too closely related to obtain a dispensation to marry. If the marriage of Thomas and Margaret took place (as I believe it did), it makes it extremely doubtful that Margaret was the granddaughter of Alice Skipwith.

Regarding the chronology of the Willoughby family, Complete Peerage
states that Sir Robert de Willoughby and Margery la Zouche were
married before 29 March 1372. Actually, I have elsewhere located a
document in the helpful online A2A Catalogue
(http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp) which proves that this couple
were married before 1 October 1369:

Lincolnshire Archives: Holywell, Reference: Holywell 87/53
Creation dates: 1 October 1369

Grant by Thomas de Hynton, parson, of a mediety of the church of St.
Elena of Theddlethorp, John de Fulstow of Keddington and John de
Irland of Bessby, to Margery wife of sir Robert de Wilughby kt., son
of John de Wilughby and after her death to John de Wilughby lord of
Eresby, of all the lands and tenements which John de Newerk of Fulstow
holds for the term of his life, and which after his death return to
Thomas, John and John.

Witnesses:- William de Skipwith kt., Robert de Hernak, William at
Halle of Beesby, Robert de Beeseby Robert Seryveyn of Fulstow John de
Markby of the same.

Endorsed:- Fulstow. Johannes Will. dns. de Eresby Roberti uxor
Margareia (16th century).

Two seals. END OF A2A CATALOGUE ITEM.

So, when was Sir Robert Willoughby's son and heir, William, born?
Complete Peerage states that he was born about 1370 (citing Ch. Inq.
p.m., 20 Ric. II, no. 54). If so, it would make William the child of
Margery la Zouche.

The document cited by Complete Peerage as evidence of William
Willoughby's birthdate is the inquisition post mortem for his father,
Sir Robert de Willoughby, taken in 1396. Modern abstracts of the
inquests which make up this record are printed in Calender of
Inquisitions Post Mortem, Vol. 17 (1988): 340-344. Following Sir
Robert de Willoughby's death, inquests were taken in various counties
as follows: Buckingham, Bedford, London, Leicester, Norfolk, Suffolk,
York, Cambridge, Northampton, and Lincoln. These various inquests
indicate that Sir Robert's son and heir, William, was then aged 30,
not stated, 24, 24, 28, 28, 24, 26, 24, 24.

As we can see, a range in dates is provided for William Willougby's
age from 24 to 30 years. However, the most common age given is 24
years (this age was given in four different inquests). Age 24 is also
the age provided by the jurors in Lincolnshire, who seemingly would
have been in the best position to provide the correct answer as to the
heir's age. Lincolnshire was the chief seat of residence of the
Willoughby family. Assuming 24 is correct age, it would place William
Willoughby's birth at about 1372, three years after his father married
Margery la Zouche [Note: I assume that the author of Complete Peerage
moved William's birthdate back to 1370, to accomodate the traditional
view that Alice Skipwith was his mother].

The approximated birth date of 1372 may be a little late, as elsewhere I find that William Willoughby [eldest son of Robert Willoughby] had license to marry Lucy le Strange at Middle, Shropshire shortly after 3 Jan. 1382/3 [Reference: R. Stretton, Registers of Bishops of Coventry & Lichfield (Colls. Hist. Staffs. n.s. 8) (1905): 84. This marriage license was overlooked by Complete Peerage]. Inasmuch as marriages of high born English nobles were usually performed at around the age of 13 or 14, this would put William Willoughby's birth at around 1369/70. Please see my post of earlier this week which indicate that Robert de Willoughby's parents were seemingly married when his father was aged 8; also please see the marriage settlement of Humphrey Bourgchier and Elizabeth Tilney which implies that their marriage is to take place before Humphrey reached
his 14th year of age.

Is there any further evidence that Margery la Zouche was the mother of
William Willoughby? Yes, there is. I find that the 1623 Visitation
of Wiltshire states that Robert de Willoughby married Margery la
Zouche. The visitation further indicates that Margery la Zouche was
the mother of Robert's son and heir, William, and his second son, Sir
Thomas. Alice Skipwith is not mentioned at all.

"Robtus Dns Willoughbie de Eresbie ob: Anno 20: Ri:. 2 = Dau of the Lo
Zouch" [Reference: H. St. George, Wiltshire Vis. Peds. 1623 (H.S.P.
105-106) (1954): 216–218 (Willoughbie pedigree)].

Is there any heraldic evidence that Margery la Zouche is the mother of
William Willoughby? Yes, there is. Gervase Holles published a record
of the Willoughby effigies and stained glass windows in the church at
Spilsby, Lincolnshire [Reference: Gervase Holles, Lincolnshire Church
Notes (Lincoln Rec. Soc. 1) (1911): 84-90]. This is the church where
the early Lords Willoughby lie buried. Among numerous shields and
coats of arms in the church, Mr. Holles records a series of windows in
the north isle of the Spilsby church, which windows appear to
represent various marriages of the early Lords Willoughby. These
windows include one for Robert Willoughby's marriage to Margery la
Zouche, and one for Robert's son and heir, William's marriage to Lucy
le Strange. The arrangement of these windows suggests to me that
Margery la Zouche was the mother of William Willoughby, otherwise one
should find a window commemorating the supposed marriage of Robert
Willoughby to Alice Skipwith. I might note that the Skipwith arms are
no where to be found in the Spilsby church. The Latimer arms for Sir
Robert Willoughby's 3rd wife are found in this church, however.

What about onomastic evidence? Did William Willoughby name a daughter
Alice or Margery. The answer: He named a daughter, Margery. He
named no daughter, Alice.

So, then what is the source which states that Alice Skipwith was the
first wife of Sir Robert de Willoughby? Collins' Peerage of England 6
(1812): 591-619 contains an account of the early Willoughby family.
Reviewing this account, I find that the author states that Sir Robert
de Willoughby married "first, Alice, daughter of Sir William Skipwith,
by whom he had William, his son and heir." The author gives as his
source: Segar's MS. Baronage, which work I have not seen. The author
adds that Alice Skipwith was "according to my MS. [mother of] "four
other sons," viz., Robert, Thomas, John, and Bryan. The latter
statement is definitely erroneous.

The author adds: "Sir William Dugdale says, the four youngest [sons]
were "by his second wife, Elizabeth, sister and heir to John Nevill,
Lord Latimer ... His second wife, according to several MSS. was
Margaret, or Margery, daughter of William, Lord Zouch, of
Harringworth, by whom he had no issue." Again, Dugdale is in error as
to the order of Sir Robert de Willoughby's marriages, as well as which
wife was the mother of Sir Robert Willoughby's children. Confusion
abounds in these early sources!

Did Alice Skipwith exist? I have found no evidence that such a woman
existed. If she did exist, she can't have been the mother of Robert
Willoughby's son and heir, William, otherwise the later intermarriage
between the Skipwith and Willoughby families would have been
disallowed as I have noted above.

Reviewing the evidence, I find every single piece of evidence pointing
to the fact that Margery la Zouche was the mother of William
Willoughby. This is based on chronology, heraldic evidence,
onomastics, and the later Skipwith-Willoughby intermarriage. The
traditional view that Alice Skipwith was the mother of William
Willoughby appears to be erroneous.

Interested parties can find representations of the monumental brass of
Margery la Zouche, wife of Sir Robert de Willoughby, at the following
two websites:

www.mbs-brasses.co.uk/pic_lib/Spilsby_Brass.htm

www.gothiceye.com/popup.asp?Ref=L019

The brass displays the arms of Zouche and Roos for her parents, as well as those of Mortimer, Bohun, Beaumont, and Welles. I'm unable to explain the latter four arms on this brass, unless they are intended for Margery's relatives of these surnames.

For interest's sake, I've listed below the names of the 17th Century New World immigrants who descend from Sir Robert de Willoughby, 4th Lord Willoughby of Eresby [died 1396], and his wife, Margery la Zouche:

Elizabeth Alsop, Henry & Thomas Batte, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth Bosvile, George, Giles & Robert Brent, Obadiah Bruen, Stephen Bull, Edward Carleton, William Crymes, John Fenwick, Roger & Thomas Mallory, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Elizabeth Marshall, Anne Mauleverer, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Ellen Newton, John Oxenbridge, Thomas Rudyard.

I might note that Sir Robert Willoughby is also in the ancestry of H.R.H Charles, Prince of Wales.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

[Ian Fettes]

Hi Douglas,

I noted in my database some time back, that The Complete Peerage Vol VII,
under Latimer p 475 note (i) states re Sir Robert, Lord Willoughby "He had
m. (1) Alice Skipwith, and (2) Margery Zouche. See Coll. Top. et Gen., vol
vii, p 154."

Perhaps there may be further information available from that publication,
not currently available to me.

Regards,

Ian

105-106) (1954): 216-218 (Willoughbie pedigree)].

[Jan]

On Sunday, December 1, 2013 1:37:34 AM UTC-5, Ian Fettes wrote:
> Hi Douglas,
>
> I noted in my database some time back, that The Complete Peerage Vol VII,
> under Latimer p 475 note (i) states re Sir Robert, Lord Willoughby "He had
> m. (1) Alice Skipwith, and (2) Margery Zouche. See Coll. Top. et Gen., vol
> vii, p 154."
>
> Perhaps there may be further information available from that publication,
> not currently available to me.
>
> Regards,
> Ian

It says (in "Additions to Dugdale's Baronage from the MS. Collections of Francis Townsend Esq., Windsor Herald"):
P. 84b, 1. 26, after " Bryan," note. This Robert, the father,
appears to have had three wives, Alice, Margery, and Elizabeth.
I rank Alice first, because I find that upon the death of Robert
de Vere, Duke of Ireland, Robert de Willoughby, grandson of
this Robert, was found to be next heir through his grandmother
Alice, who was sister of Elizabeth the grandmother of the
Duke, and that William the son of Robert and Alice was 28
years old when his father died in 20 Ric. II. and that Robert
himself at the death of his father, ao. 46 Edw. III., had a wife
named Margery. His third wife was Elizabeth, the daughter
and heir of William Lord Latimer and widow of John Lord
Neville, who died ao. 12 Ric. II. by whom he had an only daughter
named Margaret, one year old at her mother's death, ao. 19
Ric. II. (ftn l: Esc. 19 Ric.II. n..5l.) Margery, the second wife, was a daughter of Lord Zouche of Haryngworth, but whether she or Alice was mother
of the younger sons named in the text I cannot ascertain.
Glover says Robert and Bryan died without issue. Of John no
further notice occurs, but that of his existence. Thomas, the
third son, was a knight, and married Elizabeth, daughter of his
father's third wife by her first husband John Lord Neville, and
heir of her brother John Neville, Lord Latimer.

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Ian ~

The Willoughby information in Collectanea Topographica et Genealogica 7 (1841): 154–155 may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=tL1nsjpJkj8C&pg=PA154

The author states the following:

"Robert [Willoughby], the father, appears to have had three wives, Alice, Margery, and Elizabeth. I rank Alice first, because I find that upon the death of Robert de Vere, Duke of Ireland, Robert de Willoughby, grandson of this Robert, was found to be next heir through his grandmother Alice, who was sister of Elizabeth the grandmother of the Duke, and that William the son of Robert and Alice was 28 years old when his father died in 20 Ric. II. and that Robert himself at the death of his father, ao. 46 Edw. III., had a wife named Margery." END OF QUOTE.

Unfortunately the above information is based on a garbled inquisition post mortem for Robert de Vere, Duke of Ireland. The actual kinship between Willoughby family and Robert de Vere, Duke of Ireland, is through Sir Robert de Willoughby's mother, Cecily de Ufford, daughter of Robert de Ufford, K.G., 1st Earl of Suffolk. Through the Ufford connection, Sir Robert de Willoughby [died 1396] was a second cousin to Robert de Vere, K.G., Duke of Ireland [died 1392], whose mother was an Ufford.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

[Les A Cox]

Image of Brass in church
http://www.flickr.com/photos/52219527@N00/515859532/

[Johnno H]

Hi Les,
I have seen them and actually posted that link on my original posting,
trying to ascertain which child belonged to which mother.
regards
Johnno H
"Les A Cox" <coxol...@sky.com> wrote in message
news:4fe95ecb-1d64-4a73...@googlegroups.com...

[Johnno H]

Hi all,
Thanks for the various bit and pieces.
Not sure if I am any less confused as many of the references seem to be in
conflict with each other.
I agree with lots of what Douglas says, but am still not convinced of
everything, but then I dont appear to be alone in that and more
knowledgeable people than I are in disagreement.
How would these others get the Alice Skipworth bit so wrong??.
I believe the answer is about where I started this thread .. various source
differ as to 2 or 3 wives of Robert Willoughby 4th Baron de Eresby etc
BUT I do appreciate those who answered and gave different sources and their
pictures from Spilsby church.

On that Spilsby church vein, does anyone know if those tombs etc actually
show any mention of 3 wives for Robert 4th Baron, as one website suggests in
their attached notes,
but I dont know if they saw it on the tombs etc or gained those details from
say CP or other sources who claim the existence of Alice nee SKIPWORTH
/WILLOUGHBY.
++++
Douglas the Thomas of whom you speak as son of 4th Baron & Magery de ZOUCHE,
is that Thomas who
married (& divorced in 1381) Katherine de STICKNEY then later married
Elizabeth NEVILLE?
as I dont have him placed with perhaps the correct parents at moment.
++++
Douglas re the WELLES crest in Spilsby; I have that Joan Willoughby daughter
of Robert Willoughby 6th Baron de Eresby married Richard de WELLES 7th Baron
Welles who was beheaded within a few weeks in same month as his son in March
1470.
This Joan was 7th Baroness de Eresby in her right.
If the Willoughby lot are messy to work out , then surely the WELLES family
are worse due to the two beheadings, later attainting of the father Richard
and son Robert apparently to assist son in law Sir John Hastings who married
Joan de WELLES to end up with the WELLES Baroncy.

What I have is they (Richard de WELLES & wife Joan nee WILLOUGHBY had:
A daughter Joan de WELLES who married Sir John HASTINGS
A son Robert de WELLES who married Elizabeth BOURCHIER and was also beheaded
in March 1470.
So the above would surely give a connection between the Eresby WILLOUGHBY
family and the de WELLES family,
but why on Joan WILLOUGHBY's Great grandmother's tomb?.

regards
Johnno H


"Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:b9d6db6e-aaa3-4eca...@googlegroups.com...

105-106) (1954): 216-218 (Willoughbie pedigree)].

www.mbs-brasses.co.uk/piclib/Spilsby_Brass.htm

[John Watson]

On Sunday, 1 December 2013 15:05:27 UTC+7, Douglas Richardson wrote:


Dear Douglas,

There are other pieces of evidence available, which have not been mentioned in this thread. The two versions of the will of Sir Robert Willoughby of Eresby.

The first one is dated 16 March 1383, with a codicil dated 3 July 1385 when he was married to Margery. This can be found on A2A:
https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=057-anc_2&cid=1-3-1-11#1-3-1-11

Last will Testator: Robert de Wylughby, lord of Eresby. Eresby 2ANC3/A/10 16 March, 1383
Language: French
Contents:
Sets forth that 1. Sir Roger Scales, sir Robert Howard, Henry Malbis and William Michel are feoffees of the manors of Willoughby, Orby, Skidbrook, Saltfleethaven, Fulstow, Belchford, Fulletby, Cockerington, Wispington, Langton, whitehallpark, Scruylby, Raithby, W. Keal, Stickford, Partney, of the reversions of Theddlethorp and Hagworthingham when they fall in, the manor of Chatgrave co. Norfolk and Pleselay co. Derby, and receive the profits to pay off his debts, until the sum of £240 has been raised, for his "servatorz"; this is set forth in a sealed writing.
2. Each of his sons except the eldest receives a pension of £20 for life from the manor of Willoughby.
3. His wife Margery had Toynton for her life and after her husband's debts were paid she had in addition Skidbrook and Saltfleethaven and dower of thirds in all his property.
4. Richard de Ravenser, William de Skipwith, Eudo La Zouche, Henry Malbys, and William Michell are feoffees of the testator in the manors of Frampton, Bicker and Toft and of the reversions of Hiptoft hall and Fenne and of lands in Freiston and Toft, by the grant of William de Ufford whom God assoil and others and are to pay to each of the testator's sons except the eldest a pension of £40 per annum, all other pensions now ceasing.
5. All other lands held by the feoffees to go to the eldest son and his heirs. If his son is not of age at his death, the feoffees are to give the sons proper maintenance.
6. Margery his wife is to have the adowson of Willoughby for her life.
7. The feoffees of his hostel called Basecot in London and his hostel and other tenements in Calais to observe the clause in their sealed bill.
8. The executors of his wife Margery are to have the profits of the manor of Lilleford for 2 years after her death, to pay her debts and perform her will.
Endorsement: 3 July 1385: asks the executors to carry out the will in all points except that his son Robert is not to receive a pension and his daughter Isabel is to have £20 per annum until 800 marks is raised for her marriage portion.
c.f. Reg. 12 f. 438 for his will.
Lincolnshire Archives: Manuscripts of the Earl of Ancaster [2ANC3/A/10]

The second will is dated in 1395, when he was married to Elizabeth Latimer.
Robert Lord Willougby, of Eresby, Saturday, the Eve of the Holy Trinity, 19 Richard II. 1395. My body to be buried in the Chapel of the Holy Trinity of my Chapel of Spillesby. I will that the master of the said chantry, being parish priest of Spillesby, shall have my best horse and my best saddle for a mortuary, and in satisfaction of my tithes and oblations forgotten or negligently paid by me or my officers ; to Elizabeth my wife; to Robert and Thomas, my sons; to Thomas, my son, a ***, with the arms of Nevill and Latimer; to John and Brian, my sons; to Margaret, my daughter; to Sir William, my son, a diamend that belonged to tbe Earl of Suffolk, and a ***, which was once my Lady Wake?s; to the Countess of Warwick. I pray John Lord Beaumont, Sir Philip De Spencer, and Sir Walter Taileboys to be aiding to the fulfilment of this my will.
Nicholas Harris Nicolas, ed., Testamenta Vetusta, Vol. 1, (London, 1826), 136

Hope this helps.

Regards,

John

[Douglas Richardson]

On Sunday, December 1, 2013 5:21:55 AM UTC-7, Johnno H wrote:

< Thanks for the various bit and pieces.
<
< Not sure if I am any less confused as many of the references seem to be in
<
< conflict with each other.

The contemporary records are in complete agreement as to two wives of Robert de Willoughby, Knt., 4th Lord Willoughby of Eresby [died 1396], namely Margery la Zouche and Elizabeth le Latimer. There is no evidence whatsoever that he married an Alice, much less an Alice Skipwith, as his 1st wife.

I might add that secondary sources are often in disagreement. That is why we should always go back to primary sources if they are available to us.

[Matt Tompkins]

On Sunday, December 1, 2013 8:05:27 AM UTC, Douglas Richardson wrote:
<snip>

> Unfortunately the above information is based on a garbled inquisition post mortem for Robert de Vere, Duke of Ireland.
>

Is there an IPM for Robert de Vere? All his lands were forfeited a couple of years before his death, so there would have been no need for an IPM, and I can't find one in the Calendars of IPMs. Or was an inquistion carried out into his forfeited lands, while he was still alive? In which case it may be in one of the Calendars of Inquisitions Miscellaneous?

Matt Tompkins

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Matt ~

As I recall, there is an inquisition post mortem in print which involves the heirs of the Ufford family. It mentions the Willoughby family. Certain details of it are in error, however. It's been discussed here previously on the newsgroup.

I believe it is the inquisition post mortem for Maud (de Ufford) de Vere, Countess of Oxford, who died 25 Jan. 1412/3. She was the surviving mother of Robert de Vere, Duke of Ireland.

I think the author of the material in Coll. Top. et Gen. was thinking of this inquisition when he made the statements about Alice, the reputed grandmother of Robert Willoughby, 6th Lord Willoughby of Eresby [died 1452]. Robert, 6th Lord Willoughby, would have been the head of the Willoughby family in 1413 when the Countess died. If so, then it would be this inquisition which is garbled, not that of Robert de Vere, Duke of Ireland.

The connection between Robert Willoughby, 6th Lord Willoughby [died 1452], and Countess Maud is definitely through his great-grandmother, Cecily de Ufford, wife of John Willoughby, Knt., 3rd Lord Willoughby of Eresby.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

[Jan]

Did Margery, wife of Robert de Willoughby, really write the will abstracted in Early Lincoln Wills in 1359? If so, wouldn't that indicate that she and Robert were married by that date and when they were rather young? The sentence in Latin at the top of the next page of Early Lincoln Wills seems to suggest that John Hornby wrote Margery's will and did not well reckon the date because he was writing in the year 1391. What exactly does this sentence mean? Robert wasn't yet lord of Eresby in 1359, suggesting there is some problem with John Hornby's recollection of the date.

See https://archive.org/stream/earlylincolnwil00gibbgoog#page/n101/mode/2up
(bottom of page 89).

[Les A Cox]

(page 104) is Alice Lady Wake.. who was looking for that?

[Johnno H]

Hi Les,

I am not sure that the Alice Lady Wake on page 104, is the Lady Wake that
is mentioned in Robert 4th Barion de Eresby's will of 1395/6
as the Will says " To the Countess of Warwick a ring, set with a ruby and

two diamonds which belonged to my Lady Wake".

That suggests to me that This Lady Wake was deceased before Robert (ie prior
to 1395), whereas the Will on page 104 of Lincolnshire early Wills is dated
& proved 1398.

This is why I ask:
Who was the Lady Wake that the ring previously belonged to and I also who
was the Countess of Warwick mentioned who got the ring.

This was to try and determine who were the recipient and who was the
previous owner to clarify the statement in Robert's Will.
No one addressed either of those points in any reply that I could see, so I
am still looking for clarification re them.

Thanks anyway.

regards
Johnno H.

"Les A Cox" <coxol...@sky.com> wrote in message

news:b1d4ebee-4dc1-42be...@googlegroups.com...

[Chris Dickinson]

Johnno H. wrote:
 
> I am not sure that the Alice Lady Wake on page 104,  is the Lady Wake that
> is mentioned in Robert 4th Barion de Eresby's will of 1395/6
> as the Will says " To the Countess of Warwick a ring, set with a ruby and
> two diamonds which belonged to my Lady Wake".
> That suggests to me that This Lady Wake was deceased before Robert (ie prior
> to 1395), whereas the Will on page 104 of Lincolnshire early Wills is dated
> & proved 1398.

<snip>
 
 
Lady Wake was mentioned simply to identify the ring apart from any other. The possession of the ring could have come about through other means than death - a gift, part of a dowry, a payment, etc..
 
 
Chris     

[Eric Kniffin]

Just reading about the Battle of Poitiers in Edward III: the Perfect King. So I looked up the battle on Wikipedia, to see what it says. On the list of participants is a John, Lord Willoughby. I'm trying to look him up, thinking maybe he's the father of Robert, 4th Baron Willoughby de Eresby, who I think married Margery la Zouche. Robert's son is William, 5th Baron, who married Lucy le Strange.

So I looked for sources, and found Chronicles of the House of Willoughby de Eresby, by Hon. Elizabeth Sophia Heathcote Drummond Willoughby.

On Monday, December 2, 2013 at 12:57:56 PM UTC-5, Douglas Richardson wrote:
>
> The contemporary records are in complete agreement as to two wives of Robert
>de Willoughby, Knt., 4th Lord Willoughby of Eresby [died 1396], namely Margery
>la Zouche and Elizabeth le Latimer. There is no evidence whatsoever that he
>married an Alice, much less an Alice Skipwith, as his 1st wife.

Find-a-grave says he married all three of those women. The Hon. Elizabeth has ONLY Alice Skipwith, and says SHE is the mother of William, as well as Thomas and John.

Also, Margery Willoughby, wife of William Fitzhugh, is NOT among the children of William and Lucy le Strange the Hon. Elizabeth lists.

I know Wikipedia is not a source, and find-a-grave even less so. Both are jumping-off points, though. And at least wiki often cites sources. Sadly, not enough for this search, and it doesn't even have entries for earlier than William, 5th Baron.

[Peter Stewart]

On 16-Apr-20 11:48 AM, Eric Kniffin wrote:
> Just reading about the Battle of Poitiers in Edward III: the Perfect King. So I looked up the battle on Wikipedia, to see what it says. On the list of participants is a John, Lord Willoughby. I'm trying to look him up, thinking maybe he's the father of Robert, 4th Baron Willoughby de Eresby, who I think married Margery la Zouche. Robert's son is William, 5th Baron, who married Lucy le Strange.
>
> So I looked for sources, and found Chronicles of the House of Willoughby de Eresby, by Hon. Elizabeth Sophia Heathcote Drummond Willoughby.
>
> On Monday, December 2, 2013 at 12:57:56 PM UTC-5, Douglas Richardson wrote:
>>
>> The contemporary records are in complete agreement as to two wives of Robert
>> de Willoughby, Knt., 4th Lord Willoughby of Eresby [died 1396], namely Margery
>> la Zouche and Elizabeth le Latimer. There is no evidence whatsoever that he
>> married an Alice, much less an Alice Skipwith, as his 1st wife.
>
> Find-a-grave says he married all three of those women. The Hon. Elizabeth has ONLY Alice Skipwith, and says SHE is the mother of William, as well as Thomas and John.

The Hon. Elizabeth didn't know her hon. arse from her hon. elbow.

John was the heir of his mother Elizabeth Latimer. He was aged 15 when
his father died in 1396.

William was variously said to be anything from 24 years and more to 30
years and more in his father's IPMs from different localities. He was
clearly the son of his father's first wife. The notion that this was
ALice Skipwith comes without any cited authority from an 18th-century
antiquarian. Robert's marriage to Margery la Zouche is dated in CP
"before 29 Mar. 1372", and his alleged marriage to Alice Skipwith "in or
before 1370", asserting that the latter was mother of William but
offering no proof.

Peter Stewart

[Eric Kniffin]

I hope she got more right in her book than wrong. A shame to be so interested in a family that she wrote a book about them, but then do a bad job of it.

[Peter Stewart]

On 17-Apr-20 10:49 AM, Eric Kniffin wrote:
> I hope she got more right in her book than wrong. A shame to be so interested in a family that she wrote a book about them, but then do a bad job of it.
>

She was a 19th-century dilettante puffing her own ancestry - common as
muck, despite her "honourable" style.

The title page reveals her scholarly limitations: "Compiled from
Histories of England, Peerages, and other authentic sources": in her
time (1896), many published histories and peerages were not authentic
sources. Evidently she wasn't very capable at assessing which ones were.

Peter Stewart