Roos of Ingmanthorpe, York
Brad Verity
Tudor era by the following Chancery proceedings in the PRO:
C 1/431/7
Miles Newton and Anne, his wife, daughter of James Roos, esquire. v.
Robert Roos, esquire, son and heir of the said James.: The manors of
Ingmanthorpe, Deighton, and Faurham.: York.
C 1/1183/23
Robert ROOSE, esquire, v. Thomas POPE, knight, feoffee to uses, Robert
CURSON, esquire, baron of the Exchequer, Richard GYBSON and Alice his
wife.: Manors of Ingmanthorpe, Kirk-Deighton and Farnham, lands,
rents, and services in Newsome (in Spofforth), Sussacres, Staveley,
Lofthouse in Staveley (Dogetlofthouse), and Azerley, and part of the
manor of Burton Constable, pledged to Thomas Edgar of Bermondsey, co.
C 43/4/11
Parties: Robert Ross of Ingmanthorpe Subject: Concerning fine levied
of the premises between Sir Robert Pope, knight, and Robert Curson,
plaintiffs, and the said Robert Ross and Dorothy his wife, defendants,
in satisfaction of a debt of 1000 marks Places: Burton Constable,
Hunton, Gareston, Hunthank and Ilyston, fifth part of manors, lands,
etc.
4 Edw VI
James Roos, esquire, of Ingmanthorpe, was father of Robert Roos, Esq.,
of Ingmanthorpe (who married Dorothy ---), and of Anne Roos (who
married Miles Newton).
Does anyone know how - or if - this James Roos was descended from the
Lords de Ros of the 14th and early 15th centuries? I seem to recall
reading that there were collateral male branches of the Ros/Roos
family at the time the title passed to the Manners family through a
female heiress.
Could James Roos, esquire, have been a descendant of the Robert Roos
below?
C 1/39/143
Robert Roos, knight, son of William, late lord Roos. v. William Heton,
executor of the will of the said late lord, and feoffee to the uses of
the same.: His share of his father's estate in the Barony of Thornton
in Craven, and lands called Mapersalfe in Uffington.
I've searched Ancestry.com's database and GENUKI, but neither were
much help.
Many thanks and best regards, --------Brad Verity
The...@aol.com
Hello Brad,
The connection between Ros of Ingmanthorpe and Ros of Helmsley I show as
follows:
1. Sir Robert de Ros, of Helmsley in Holderness,
co. York., & c.; d. before 23 Dec 1226
= 1191 (2nd husband) Isabel, natural daughter
of William 'the Lion', King of Scots
2. Sir William de Ros, of Helmsley in Holderness,
co. York., & c.; d. ca. 1264
= Lucy, daughter of Piers fitz Herbert, of Blaen
Llyfni, co. Brecknock [ancestor of Lord
FitzReynold]
3. A. Sir Robert de Ros, of Helmsley in Holderness
d. 17 May 1285 [ancestor of Lords Ros]
B. Sir William de Ros, of Ingmanthorpe, co. York
2nd or 4rd son; d. bef 28 May 1310
= Eustache 'FitzHugh', granddaughter and
heiress of Hugh fitz Ralph, of Greasley,
co. Notts. and Ilkeston, co. Derby
[she m. lstly, Nicholas de Cantelou]
... from whom, de Ros of Ingmanthorpe
Besides CP (under Ros), see Paul Reed's post (in SGM archives) entitled
"Driby" dated 22 June 1999.
Hope this helps.
John *
* John P. Ravilious
brad verity
Thank you for the descent of the Rooses of Ingmanthorpe from the Roses of
Helmsley.
I checked CP, which mentions the following children of William, 6th Lord Ros
and his wife Margaret d'Arundel:
1) John, 7th Lord Ros, b. abt. 1397, m. 1404, Margery le Despenser, and
killed s.p. 22 Mar. 1421.
2) Sir William Ros, killed 22 Mar. 1421, presumably s.p.
3) Thomas, 8th Lord Ros, b. 26 Sep 1406, m. Eleanor, dau. of Richard
Beauchamp, Earl of Warwick, and d. 18 Aug. 1430, having had issue, 2 sons
and 1 dau:
A) Thomas, 9th Lord Ros, b. 9 Sep. 1427, from whom the Manners family
descend.
B) Richard Ros, b. at Belvoir 1429 - no further information.
A) Margaret Ros, m. William, Lord Botreaux
4) Sir Robert Roos, who in 1443 had a grant that he should act as
Chamberlain at the installation of the Archbishop of Canterbury during the
minority of "Lord Roos." Sir Robert is also the subject of the PRO
document: [C 1/39/143 Robert Roos, knight, son of William, late lord Roos.
v. William Heton, executor of the will of the said late lord, and feoffee to
the uses of the same.: His share of his father's estate in the Barony of
Thornton in Craven, and lands called Mapersalfe in Uffington.]
**Is it possible the following two PRO documents also apply to this Sir
Robert Roos, giving him a wife Anne and a daughter Margaret?
**E 40/4668 Defeasance of a grant by Margaret daughter of Robert Roos,
knight, and late the wife of Thomas Pynchebecke, to John Lumbard and Robert
Gybbes of Midildicheford, of land in Stretton-on-the-fosse, belonging to
Margaret's manor there, with the advowson of Stretton church; witnessing
that after the decease or resignation of the present rector of Stretton the
said John and Robert Gybbes shall present William Lumbard, John's son, or
one other fit clerk to the said church within six months, and that
immediately after the said presentation the said land and advowson shall
remain to the said Margaret for ever: Warw. Saturday, 25 March, 19 Henry VI.
**C 143/450/11 Robert Roos, knight, and Anne his wife, Humphrey Bohun,
Richard Wakehurst, William Sydeny, John Lelye, and Walter Urry to grant land
by the church of Midhurst to Elizabeth, prioress of Easebourne, her convent,
and their successors. Sussex. 24 HENRY VI.
5) Richard Ros - no further information.
1) Elizabeth Ros, m. Robert Morley, Lord Morley
2) Margaret Ros, m. James, Lord Audley
3) Beatrice Ros, a nun
4) Alice Ros - no further information.
Do you happen to know anything further about Sir Robert Roos, Richard Ros,
and Alice Ros - the younger children of the 6th Lord Ros, as well as know
anything about Richard Ros - the younger son of the 8th Lord Ros?
Thanks again, John. Best regards, -------Brad Verity
_________________________________________________________________
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Reedpcgen
with the James Roos of Ingmanthorpe. I had planned on posting this after my
article on the Goddard/Gifford ancestry appeared in the NEHGR, but have not had
time. There was no space for this in the article, but I think it is important
to make this line public. I think it was Marshal Kirk who had queried about
this some time ago.
The Roos/Ros of Gedney, Lincs., descent is:
1. Sir Robert de Ros of Hamlake, m. Isabel d'Aubigny
2. Sir Robert de Ros of Gedney, Lincolnshire, d. shortly before 3 Feb. 1361, m.
Ernberge [Constable?].
3. Sir James de Ros, b. abt. 1300, d. 1361, of Gedney, m. Maud [de
Tattershall?], who received land in Yorkshire, including Hunmanby.
4. Sir James de Ros, b. ca. 1347, 3rd son, but eventual heir, d. Gedney 12 Feb.
1403, m. [?daughter of Reynold, Lord Cobham].
5. Sir Robert Roos, b. Gedney, aged 13 in 1403, aged 21 1 Nov. 1411, of Gedney,
Lincs., d. 1441, Joan Tilliol, daughter and coheir of Geoffrey Tilliol (d.
1400), by his wife Alice de Ireby, daughter and heir of Sir John de Ireby (Joan
married, second, Sir John de Skelton, hence the mixup). They had two
daughters, the younger being Eleanor, the elder being:
(a) Margaret Roos, m. (1) John Wittlesbury of Milton, Northants (by whom she
had an heir Robert, born ca. 1439 [aged 32 in 1471] who died in 1506 without
issue [PCC 14 Adeane, inherited Gedney, executors to make an accounting "to my
cousyn Pallet"]); she m. (2) Henry Grene, Esquire [sic, widower of Constance
Poynings (whose son John married Eleanor Roos, younger sister of Margaret
Roos)], by whom she had a daughter (his heiress), Constance Grene/Greene, who
married John Stafford, Earl of Wiltshire, but their issue died out in the next
generation, leaving the Paulets as heirs.
Eleanor Roos had married (1) Humphrey Dudley, son of John, 1st Lord Dudley,
dispensation dated 8 Dec. 1448. They were related in the 3rd and 4th degrees.
Chronologically, given that her elder sister and heir Margaret Roos was born
ca. 1413 (aged 28 at their father's death in 1441), and as Sir Robert Roos the
father was born ca. 1390 (proof of age in 1411), the only possible connection
between the two would be through Humphrey's great-grandfather Thomas, Lord
Berkeley (1293-1361), by his first wife Margaret de Mortimer, daughter of the
Earl of March. Though there was another contemporary Eleanor Roos, daughter of
Sir Robert Roos (son of William, 6th Lord Ros of Helmesly), it is certain our
Eleanor was the bride of Humphrey because he claimed her inheritance at
Hunmanby, Yorkshire.
Paul
Reedpcgen
>Paul's article shows some signs of having been written hastily, and
>read without much attention by his esteemed colleagues, who, after
>all, should save him from errors rather than blindly cheerlead
>whatever he does.
Ouch! Are you having a bad day? Perhaps you could describe where it looks to
be hasty.
I could have doubled the size of the article by including all the various side
comments they let me put into TAG, but there was not space to expand it beyond
what it was.
As to the children by "Thornhill of Gifford", the article shows clearly in a
table on p. 133 that Anne Gifford was the daughter of John Gifford by Joan
Brudges/Brydges.
The proper question is, who was the mother of the other daughters, who were the
children of WIlliam Thornhill? Joan had married William Thornhill by 1538 [the
infor in HOP for William Thornhill is wrong]. But he was married before, and
the pedigrees confused, so it is not clear which of his children were by his
first wife, and which were by Joan Brydges.
(John, sometimes you are very nice, and sometime you attack with bitterness. I
haven't been able to figure out what causes the change in your attitude towards
me.)
Paul
malinda
Since you are also a Virginia specialist, would you happen to know if
the Brudges/Brydges mentioned below has any connection to the
Bridges family at Bridges Creek, later Pope's Creek...birthplace of
George Washington ?
Thanks...~malinda
Hans Vogels
refuge on the continent because of the political climate. Is anyone
mayby aware of a Roos person moving to the Low Countries?
I came across a 17th century Dutch family with the familyname Roos
(and variations on it) and I wondered what the explanation of the name
might be. I have not yet delved into it as the thought just came up.
With regards,
Hans Vogels
bat...@hotmail.com (brad verity) wrote in message news:<F89atd4gmSknv...@hotmail.com>...
Reedpcgen
will see that the chart (pp. 136-15) was actually a direct descent. I was not
allowed to lengthen the article beyond what it originally was in the early
draft, and if you remember what it looked like before you threw it out, the
will of Joan Brydges went to the end of the page. No space was left to list
the next generation (not even in footnotes).
In the interest of those who asked, The Visitations of Hampshire list the
children of John Gifford and Joane Bruges as
John Gifford, of Ichell, m. Elezebeth Throgmorton
Richard Gifford of Kings Samborne, m. Anne Goring\George Gifford
[Anne], m. Goddard of Wilts
Joane
Allice
Mary
It was beyond the scope of the article to give the wills or details of that
family (and it was not attempted).
Pedigrees of William Thornhull's family give two wives, Joan Chawsey, of
Chartleton, Wilts., and Joan [Brydges, whom they call "Bridy"]
Their children are confused, but William was the father of:
1. Robert Thornhull of Thornhull, b. 1527, m. twice
2. Matthew Thornhull
3. Mary, m. Thomas Mullins of West Hall
2. Margaret, m. John Willoughby of Turners Piddle
3. Elizabeth, m. Robert Spratt, of London
4. Ann, m. Thomas Moleyns
The details about this family were also beyond the scope of the article.
When we worked on the Mansfeild article with Jane, she allowed me to expand
that article considerably, but Henry was already locked into page allocations.
Paul
Reedpcgen
>you'll work on MY Giffords. Now that we have a seal indicating a connection
>to the Bucks. family, it could get quite good.
Wow, that's a very important development. Have you been able to get a good
photograph of it yet?
I know from correspondence we've had how much interesting detail you've dug up
on these families. You should definitely put an article together.
I have a copy of Moriarty's work on the Giffard family of Buckinghamshire a few
feet away from me, aside from other sources I copied when following up the
allegations that "Sir George" Gifford was of that 'other' family, as I have
time. I'm bogged down for the next few days finishing off one article and long
overdue work for two people,
You hadn't mentioned that you'd gotten results about the seal, and I was going
to ask how it turned out. How clear and complete was the impression?
Paul
Reedpcgen
>know how to go about getting someone to run up to the Peabody Essex museum??
>I'm impoverished, can't pay for anything,
Salem's not far from Boston. You should contact Gary Boyd Roberts. Now that
he's finally come into a substantial inheritance, he might consider having
someone check it for you, or put you onto a wealthy descendant who would do
this for you.
Paul
Don Stone
> Here is another line that has a James Roos in it that should not be confused
> with the James Roos of Ingmanthorpe. I had planned on posting this after my
> article on the Goddard/Gifford ancestry appeared in the NEHGR, but have not had
> time. There was no space for this in the article, but I think it is important
> to make this line public. I think it was Marshal Kirk who had queried about
> this some time ago.
Marshall Kirk asked me to forward the following to the list/group:
----------
In his preamble to a recent post on a Roos line (of Gedney, Lincs), Paul
Reed mentioned that "I think it was Marshal[l] Kirk who had queried about
this some time ago." I don't recall the exact timing or details of my own
post -- perhaps it related to the marriage with Humphrey Dudley? -- but my
main 'Roos' interest is, in fact, in a different line, the details of which
I'll (re?)iterate here. (Skeletally.)
ROOS OF GILSTON, HERTS & GREAT SAMPFORD, CO. ESSEX
1--"Magister" Robert de Roos, ... 1280/1-1306/7 ... [no evidence yet but
name and tenure that he was fa. of the next generation].
2--Robert de Roos, s1275-?1309/10.
3--John de Roos, s1300-1373, & four sisters whose descendants were living
in the 1450s.
4--John de Roos, died v.p.
5--John de Roos, ~1361-1375, s.p. The inheritance of this John de Roos's
estate tied Robert Armburgh, husband of John's first cousin, in (ultimately
unavailing) knots for years. See Christine Carpenter, ed., _The Armburgh
Papers_, to which John Brandon called my attention.
According to various old county histories, which give inconsistent and
chronologically impossible accounts, this family claimed descent from
Robert de Roos and Isabel d'Aubigny. As I haven't identified the two
Roberts' wives, it may be worth noting that their estates abutted those of
a Gifford family who seem to have made the same claim, and that the two
families bought and sold from each other. (The latter point is, perhaps,
almost implied by the former.) I haven't yet had a chance to go over
Paul's recent article, either, tho' it's certainly in my 'to read' pile.
This whole project has been on one of the farthest (furthest?) astern of my
back burners, my time and attention being almost wholly taken up -- alas;
alackaday! -- with drearier matters.
--Marshall Kirk
----------