Phokas family - from the beginning
Christian Settipani
It is a non-sense to make the early Phocas a member of a family of
Phocades and to
assign to him and to is kindred first names and family name. The family
name doesn't
exist at this time. This man was simply Phocas (Flavios is no more that
"sir"). He was
born in 547, and probably wasn't so low born that sources say. His
mother, Domentzia
was probably of a good family which goes back to early V century. He had
two brothers,
Domentiolus and Comentiolus, and the last was the father of another
Domentiolus,
married to Irene and father of three children in 610, some of them will
have children
in turn.
In the VIII and IX century, nicknames and patronymes turn to become
family names in
Byzantium, perhaps under influence of Armenians. In 872 a Phocas (we
don't know if it
is is first name or, already, a family name, was distinguished and
become tourmarque
of Cappadocia, then protospatharius, etc., and strategos of Anatolia.
This Phocas was
of Cappadocia, and so for emperor Phocas of VII century, but they were
not necessary
of the same family for the name was perhaps a frequent one in
Cappadocia, or perhaps
they were. Nobody can say.
His son was Nicephoros Phocas, born c. 850 and the first to enter great
standing. He
had two sons, Leon (the oldest) and Bardas. Leon doesn't have a son
named Michael.
This Michael is Michael Maleinos, for Bardas, Nicephore'son married a
Maleina, sister
of Michael and Constantin Maleinoi and of very ancient cappadocian
stock. I don't know
of Leon's sons. Manuel (not Emmanuel) is the son of another Leon.
Bardas and Maleina have three sons, emperor Nicephore, Leon and
Constantin, and two
daughters: one of them is the mother of emperor Iohannes Tzimiskes and
ancestor of
Bulgarian kings and european nobility, while the other married
Theodoulos
Parsakountenos and have three sons, Theodore (?), Bardas and Nicephore.
Leon, brother of emperor Nicephore was curopalatos, not curopalatinos,
but in any
case the hightest charge of most Phocas is "Domestique of Scholae" and
almost all of
them since the first Nicephore have it. This Leon doesn't have a son
Petros, who is a
servant, not the son, of a Phocas. Bardas, Leon' son was killed in 989,
not 987. He
have married and distant cousine (Anastaso Adralestina was the maternal
grandmother of
emperor Nicephore), Ne Adralestina, and have two sons, Leon, and
Nicephore. This one
met his dead in 1022 (not 1120!!!). One of these sons if the father of
Bardas, blinded
in 1025. Perhaps is this Bardas the same that Bardas Phocas, dead in
Crete with
children and ancestor of the Cretan Phocades.
See : I. Djuric, "Porodica Foca", Zbornik Radova, 17 (1976), p. 189-292
and J.-Cl.
Cheynet, "les Phocas", in G. Dagron & H. Mihaescu, le traite sur la
guerilla de
l'empereur Nicephore Phocas, Paris, 1986.
CS
D. Spencer Hines
folks on this group, you have the manners of a cur and the presence of a
guttersnipe.
Monsieur Settipani is a widely respected Genealogist.
You, _au contraire_ are too much of a coward even to reveal your full
name.
Now, why don't you crawl back into that gutter you crawled out of and
rejoin your fellow vermin in chomping on some offal and detritus.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
--
"Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum." Flavius Vegetius Renatus [fl.
circa 375 A.D.]
"To be prepared for war is one of the most effectual means of preserving
peace." President George Washington [1732-1799], First Annual Address
[to both bodies of Congress], 8 January 1790.
George <om...@thoroughbreds.com.au> wrote in message
news:AoUE3.1$aF6....@vic.nntp.telstra.net...
| Dear Friend,
|
| For a person who wishes to impress others with his superior knowledge
you
| make some fairly silly statements.
|
| Firstly, about my posting and this news group. In my "posting" I
did not
| claim originality or perfection, In fact I clearly stated at the end,
that
| there are errors and omission. I only posted enough information for
the
| message to stand on it's own legs. Some errors that appeared in my
| message were corrected later.
| About the newsgroup. You will find that ALL messages posted in this
group
| have one purpose, to attract the attention of persons interested in
that
| particular field/family, in the hope that some one has more
information
| (even if it is a rumour or a guess) and than you have. There are
some
| very keen genealogists in this group.
|
| > There is many problems with the stemma of the Phocades.
|
| You have the problems, I do not.
|
| > It is a non-sense to make the early Phocas a member of a family of
| Phocades and to
| > assign to him and to is kindred first names and family name. The
family
| name doesn't
| > exist at this time. This man was simply Phocas (Flavios is no more
that
| "sir").
|
| That's a silly statement. Phokas is a "nick-name" that was adobted
as
| family name.
| If Flavios means "Sir" as you suggest, and that must be a jock,
because
| Flavios Phokas was the biggest "Bastard" of all times and the last
person in
| the world to deserve to be called "Sir".
| If he was "a Flavios" ( A "Sir"), why all the other Emperors and
nobles were
| not Flavios too?
| If his brothers had a first name, why didn't he deserve to have one?
|
| > He was born in 547, and probably wasn't so low born that sources
say.
|
| His family were one of the bigest land owners of those days.
|
| > His mother, Domentzia was probably of a good family which goes back
to
| early V century. He had
| > two brothers, Domentiolus and Comentiolus, and the last was the
father of
| another
| > Domentiolus, married to Irene and father of three children in 610,
some of
| them will
| > have children in turn.
|
| The above statement, that Domentiolos married "Irene" is one of the
first
| links that connects
| the old world of the "Latins" with the new world of the "Christians".
| I assume from then on the names were Christian.
|
| > In the VIII and IX century, nicknames and patronymes turn to become
family
| names in
| > Byzantium, perhaps under influence of Armenians. In 872 a Phocas (we
don't
| know if it
| > is is first name or, already, a family name, was distinguished and
become
| tourmarque
| > of Cappadocia, then protospatharius, etc., and strategos of
Anatolia.
|
| ALL names are nick names, NOBODY can claim that his/her name is not a
nick
| name.
| Phokas has NO meaning and therefore I assume it is not a Greek name.
I
| assume it is
| the name of a "place" or it refers to the looks of one of the
uncestors,
| allegedly they were
| a very ugly mop. (For those who do not know the name Komnenos comes
from
| "Komne"
| the are the family had their "headquarters" a small village.
|
| The Phokas family, were one of some dozen "Phaiudarches" of the early
| Medieval times.
| There were constantly forced to defend themselfs and protect their
land
| (that's one of the
| reasons why all the ones we know were Generals).
| Those days, next to your land the most precious "thing" in life was
your
| "NAME".
| That's why names like Phokas, Komnenos, Palaiologos, Notaras, Laskaris
etc
| remained
| unchanged over the years. (I guess that's why it was so fashionable
these
| days for all
| European rules to try to marry in these families. Many Mongol
rulers were
| sadisfied
| with illegitimated daughters).
|
| >This Phocas was of Cappadocia, and so for emperor Phocas of VII
century,
| but they were
| > not necessary of the same family for the name was perhaps a frequent
one
| in Cappadocia,
| > or perhaps they were. Nobody can say.
| > His son was Nicephoros Phocas, born c. 850 and the first to enter
great
| standing. He
| > had two sons, Leon (the oldest) and Bardas.
|
| >Leon doesn't have a son named Michael.
|
| Michael (The Monk) was Leo's BROTHER, not SON.
|
| > This Michael is Michael Maleinos, for Bardas, Nicephore'son married
a
| Maleina, sister
| > of Michael and Constantin Maleinoi and of very ancient cappadocian
stock.
| I don't know
| > of Leon's sons.
| > Manuel (not Emmanuel) is the son of another Leon.
|
| You are a bit ignorent. The Christian name is EMMANUEL; "Manuel",
| "Manolis", "Manos", "Nolis", and "Manousos" are short-cuts or
| simplifications.
|
| >Bardas and Maleina have three sons, emperor Nicephore, Leon and
Constantin,
| and two
| > daughters: one of them is the mother of emperor Iohannes Tzimiskes
and
| ancestor of
|
| The Emperors name is John Tzimiskis (Ioannis) and not Johann
(Iohannes)
|
| > Bulgarian kings and european nobility, while the other married
Theodoulos
| > Parsakountenos and have three sons, Theodore (?), Bardas and
Nicephore.
|
| Interesting comments, be more specific.
|
| > Leon, brother of emperor Nicephore was curopalatos, not
curopalatinos,
|
| Again, you are ignorent. Kuropalatinos is actually two words: Kouros
+
| Palatinos."
| "Kouros" means VERY freely translated "the caretaker".
| The meaning of the word "PALATINOS" did not change over the centuries
and it
| is still being used today.
| It describes a person that lives and supports the "Palace", Palace
meaning
| the royal family.
| Kuropalatinos is "The palace administrator" or "The Palace Governor".
| DOn't take my word for it, check your Greek or Latin dictionary.
Any
| Greek will tell you that "Palatos" does not mean anything.
|
| > but in any case the hightest charge of most Phocas is "Domestique
of
| Scholae" and
| > almost all of them since the first Nicephore have it.
|
| > This Leon doesn't have a son Petros,
|
| I corrected that, the name is Peter.
|
| > who is a servant, not the son, of a Phocas. Bardas, Leon' son was
killed
| in 989,
| > not 987. He have married and distant cousine (Anastaso Adralestina
was
| the maternal
| > grandmother of emperor Nicephore), Ne Adralestina, and have two
sons,
| Leon, and
| > Nicephore. This one met his dead in 1022 (not 1120!!!). One of these
sons
| if the father of
| > Bardas, blinded in 1025.
| > Perhaps is this Bardas the same that Bardas Phocas, dead in Crete
with
| children and ancestor of the >Cretan Phocades.
|
|
| Again you show your ignorence here. The Phokas family moved to settle
in
| Crete in 1182. I have a copy of the Chryssobul, signed by Alexius II
| Komnenos. NO Phokas family members remained in Crete in 961.
|
| > See : I. Djuric, "Porodica Foca", Zbornik Radova, 17 (1976), p.
189-292
| > and J.-Cl.
| > Cheynet, "les Phocas", in G. Dagron & H. Mihaescu, le traite sur la
| > guerilla de l'empereur Nicephore Phocas, Paris, 1986.
|
| There are hundreds of Historical documents (Chryssobuls, Wills,
Historical
| texts, etc) about the Phokas family.
D. Spencer Hines
I think you will find Monsieur Settipani to be a perfect gentleman, if
you address him civilly.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
--
"Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum." Flavius Vegetius Renatus [fl.
circa 375 A.D.]
"To be prepared for war is one of the most effectual means of preserving
peace." President George Washington [1732-1799], First Annual Address
[to both bodies of Congress], 8 January 1790.
George <om...@thoroughbreds.com.au> wrote in message
news:%VYE3.2$aF6....@vic.nntp.telstra.net...
|
| I am sorry, I thought my full name was at the bottom of each of my
messages.
|
| My Full name is Dr. George Tsambourakis.
|
| As far as you comments are concerned, you will find that my original
message
| was NOT provocative. I did neither challenge or insulted anybody nor
I
| tried to be clever.
|
| I found Mr Settipani style very provocative and insulting. He
replied
| after quite some time after the message was posted and instead of
offering
| suggestions related to my posting, he started talking about
"Non-Sense" and
| trying to making "corrections" that had one and only purpose, to show
a HIS
| supperior knowledge.
| We are all equal, we all make mistakes, with all have our views.
Nobody is
| perfect.
| I have been using this group for some 10 or 15 years (the last 2 or 3
| excempt) using my CSIRO address, under the name "geetee". I never
had
| any problems, I never insulted anybody and nobody insulted me before.
|
| regards
|
| George
Leo van de Pas
May I ask----is English your first language? You have to be appreciative
that people, like myself, have another language as first language. I think I
have mastered the English language quite well, but I live in an English
speaking country----but you cannot expect that from a Frenchman living in
France. I presume in French Non-sense is simply an observation but English
speaking people find 'nonsense' insulting. He probably meant that, whatever,
made 'no sense' to him. He did put a dash between the words and obviously
did not intend to use the word 'nonsense'. I have learned that in messages
you should look for the 'message', especially if they are written in
someone's
second language. To look for 'insulting finesse' in sentences is not fair,
as
they usually are not intended.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
George
George
Christian Settipani
You make about my answer some emotive considerations wich aren't about
the matter. My style want to be concise, not offensive, and please don't
forget that I have some difficulty to write in English. For the rest,
let me only say that :
1) If I wish impress others on genealogical matters I could make much
better. Trust me. I don't. I'm only concerned to give some help time to
time. Sorry for not answer at the precise minute where the message is
posted. I have a life .
2) When I correct a pedigree given by somebody else, it is never a
personnal attack, but a friendly collaboration. Sure I can be wrong, I'm
sometimes wrong, but I quote allways my sources and my logical
interpretation of them, so others can correct my contribution.
3) I don't think I'm superior to anybody. I think that I know facts that
you don't know. And I know competent people that you don't know. I share
this with you.
Ok. We can go with the stemma. In genealogy, one can be satisfy with
approximative data or with precise filiation. If approximation is the
goal of this stemma, really, there is no problem, otherwise ...
Anybody who is interested in genealogy, ought to know some historical,
sociological or constitutional facts. Without a minimum basis, there is
not possible debate. The meaning of Flavios is best kown by every
historian of late antiquity. Thus, for exemple, papyri assign it to
every consul whatever their real name. You can read the recent paper of
A. Cameron, "Flavius : a nicety of protocol", Latomus, 47 (1988), p.
26-33. Phocas was not "the biggest bastard of all times". He was an
emperor and, during all time of his reign, the most pious, beautiful,
intelligent, etc. man of the world. But he was not a successful emperor,
neither an aristocratic one, so AFTER his death, he become the worst of
the men.
To the purpose, can you quote one ancient source wich name the emperor
"Flavios Phocas" ? Phocas is not a nickname. It is a name. There are lot
of Phocas in late roman Empire, some very distinguished : Phocas, consul
and patricius in 528; Phocas, son of Craterus, son of Salvius, patricius
and praetorian prefect for Oriens in 532, Phocas, vir gloriosissimus in
Honorias, etc. (see PLRE, II, s.v. Phocas 1-5, p. 880-882 & III, s. v.
Phocas 1-8, p. 1029-1032).
If you have data about his family as landowners, please give it. All
greek sources are later that his reign and very negative about it and
speak of him as a single "centurion" (Hékatontarchos or stratiotes).
Nothing about his family antecedents.
I don't understand your remarks about about Latins and Christians. The
latin world was christian since Theodosius I, two hundred years before
Phocas. About Latinity and Christianity, there is now a very stimulating
book : K. F. Werner, Naissance de la Noblesse, Paris, 1998.
Nothing to say about yours considerations about nick names. I'm speaking
about family name. During 7th and 8th century in Byzantium, there are
not family name, but a personnal name, with sometime a patronymical,
ethnical, or geographical complement, or a nick name. The family name
doesn't appears before the late 8th century. See E. Patlagean, "Les
debuts d'une aristocratie byzantine et le temoignage de
l'historiographie: systeme des noms et liens de parente aux IX-X
siecles", The Byzantine aristocracy, ed. M. Angold, Oxford, 1984, p.
23-43; F. Winkelmann, Quellenstudien zur Herrschenden Klasse von Byzanz
im 8. und 9. Jahrhundert, Berlin 1987, p. 143-180; J.-Cl. Cheynet, "Du
prenom au patronyme : les etrangers a Byzance (X-XII siecles), Studies
in Byzantine Sigillography, Washington, 1987, p.57-66; Id.,
"Anthroponymie aristocratique ŕ Byzance", L'Anthroponymie, éd. M.
Bourin, Rome, 1996, p. 267-294; A. Kazhdan-S. Ronchey, L'aristocrazia
bizantina dal principio dell'XI alla fine del XII secolo, Palermo, 1997,
p. 167-174, 383-392.
For Michael the monk, it is a lapsus of mine. You have to read
"Nicephore doesn't have a son named Michael" (or "Leon doesn't have a
brother named Michael", as you like), all the rest unchanged of course.
This monk is not a Phocas.
For Emmanuel, I'm perhaps ignorant, but I have read byzantine sources,
Nicephore, Theophane, Theophanes continuated, Symeon magister, Georges
monachus, The Logothete, Photios (and to be sure I have take them with
me at this moment) and they spell "Manouel". I have read also modern
byzantinists (and I have them at hand at this precise moment), J. B.
Bury, H. Gregoire, A. Vasiliev, N. Adontz, C. Mango, W. Treadgold, M.
Herlong, A. Kazdhan, and all speak of Manouel, Manuel. So, we are some
ancient and modern ignorants. Of course, etymology is another problem.
My eldest daughter's name is Heloise, and I never call her Heilwig,
Heilwich and so, but I know that this is the original form.
The emperor name is Jean for me, John for you and can take any form you
want according the time or the country. The conventional spelling (in
France, perhaps it is another fact in USA) is Iohannes. Of course, it
the same that Jean, Jehan, John, Ioannis, Giovanni, H'ovannes, etc. etc.
The three sons of Theodoulos Parsakountenos are given as "exadelphoi" of
Bardas Phocas according Leon the Diacon, p. 112 (ed. Bonn). Arabic
sources speak of a Theodoulos, son-in-law of Bardas Phocas, father of
Theodoros and another son (A. Vasiliev, Byzance et les Arabes,
Bruxelles, 1935, II, 1, p. 268).
For "curopalatos", I'm really wrong. The good spelling is of course
"curopalates". The question is not to open a (classical) greek
dictionnary, but to read once a byzantine source.
For Peter/Petros, see above about Iohannes (Pierre, Peter, Pietr, Pedro
and so).
I don't know the history of Phocades in Crete because this is not of my
interest. So far I know, the first mention of Phocades as a cretan
family is on documents of late 12th century (Revue de l'Orient latin,
11, 1905/8, doc. IIIb) wich are forgeries. But one can accept the fact
that, by this time the Phocades were already a powerful house in the
Island, one of the twelve archontal families : see Dimitris Tsougarakis,
Byzantine Crete from the 5th century to the Venetian Conquest, Athens,
1988, p. 373-4, no 350 and Elizabeth Malamut, Les Iles de l'Empire
byzantin, Paris, 1988, II, p. 493. The epitaph of Bardas Phocas in Crete
(edited by I. Sevcenko, DOP, 23/4 (1969), p. 191) is not precisely
dated, but the 11th century is the most probable : J.-Cl. Cheynet, Les
Phocas, p. 308, n. 64.
I know perfectly that there are so many documents on Phocas. But the two
studies I quote have make the critical synthesis of these sources.
Sincerly yours
CS
George
In view of your comments, I apologise too. Clearly a misunderstanding.
You raised a very large number of issues that can not be answered in one go.
Firstly, I would like to point out that I am not a medical doctor but a
"Research Scientist".
After some 20 years employment with one of the worlds largest research
organisations (CSIRO),
I had no option but to learn to do a bit of research, and if the reaction to
my published work
is taken into account, I must have been reasonably good. I was educated in
Vienna, so I speak German as well as Greek and English. I also learned
Swedish and Italian although I did not practise much the last few years.
I am a "Byzantinian" Cretan-Greek from both sites, father and mother. I am
related to the Phokas and my educated guess is that I am related to Komnenos
and Notaras too.
I use an "Ancestral Quest" software package. I enter a "name" after three
proven "sittings".
First time: It is recorded; Second time: It is entered in the database;
Third time: Linked.
As a rule, I do read only "Original manuscripts (copies of course)" or
"Original Translations",
I do not pay much attention to reviews unless I know the author.
I will try to answer some of your comments:
> The meaning of Flavios is best kown by every
> historian of late antiquity. Thus, for exemple, papyri assign it to
> every consul whatever their real name. You can read the recent paper of
> A. Cameron, "Flavius : a nicety of protocol", Latomus, 47 (1988), p.26-33.
Male genes (Y-Chromosome) are sometimes (in some families) very domineering.
In other words, the son is spit image of his father. (like father like son).
I believe the Phokas family is one of those domineering familes.
You will find, a "Phokas" is always described as: "Short", "Squat", "Broad
Shoulters",
"Round face", "Wild look", "Dark eyes", "Heavy Eye-brows" and "Curly Hairs".
One in every four appears to have "red round face with red-brown hairs and
red
brown bart". One of those that Flavius Phokas, I understand from
discussions
I had some 30 years ago, that he was "Phokas, the Flavius" (?????) and that
"Flavius" is not his first name but become his first name. Allegedly. it
means
something like the "red-faced" or the "red-haired". I have a modern Latin
dictionary,
but the word "Flavius" does not exist. The closest I could find is "Flavus"
and it means red.
> Phocas was not "the biggest bastard of all times". He was an
> emperor and, during all time of his reign, the most pious, beautiful,
> intelligent, etc. man of the world. But he was not a successful emperor,
> neither an aristocratic one, so AFTER his death, he become the worst of
> the men.
Again, we read different books: As far as I know, he was "paranoid",
"drunk" and "blood thirsty".
He loved to kill.
I have a book in front of me by John Julius Norwich: He describes him as:
Debauched, drunken and pathologically cruel, he loved nothing more than the
sight of blood. Until his day, torture had been rare in the Empire; it was
Phokas who introduced the rack, the blindings and mutilations...... etc etc.
In my humble opinion, Norwich is a good historian.
> If you have data about his family as landowners, please give it.
I thought that this is a common knowledge. I never thought somebody will
ask me for a reference. I will see what I can do.
> All greek sources are later that his reign and very negative about it and
> speak of him as a single "centurion" (Hékatontarchos or stratiotes).
Stratiotis is one soldier, Hekatontarchos is a n officer in charge of 100
Stratiotis.
I know he was a "Centurion" but I do not know details.
> I don't understand your remarks about about Latins and Christians.
Maybe this "term" is not very common in the west. My understanding is that
"Latins"
were all west of Greece", some say, "All that used the latin "alphabet"
after 400AD",
others say that "The term refers to Venecians only". Are three sound the
same to me.
> The latin world was christian since Theodosius I, two hundred years before
> Phocas. About Latinity and Christianity, there is now a very stimulating
Konstantinos I, Roman Emperor, declared Christianity as the official
language of the
"Roman Empire", however, latin names were still in use together with
Christian names.
Around the year 400, the Empire of the East" was strong enough to declare
"Greek"
as its main language. It took from then on another couple of hundred
years for the
> During 7th and 8th century in Byzantium, there are not family name,
> but a personnal name, with sometime a patronymical, ethnical, or
geographical
> complement, or a nick name.
I totaly agree, there NO name in the world today that it is not a "nick"
name, weather your
"Brown" or "Smith" or "whatever".
> For Michael the monk, it is a lapsus of mine.
I find Michael Phokas "the monk" some six years, in a web-site about the
Phokas family.
The name was mentioned again a month ago, as being "reported" in one of the
"Libro
Doro" books, that's "two strikes", I need more siting to link it in my data
base.
> The emperor name is Jean for me,
Good, but you seek troubles.
French is the only language (to my knowledge) that uses "Jean" as a male
name.
In any other language, including English, Jean is a female name.
> The conventional spelling (in
> France, perhaps it is another fact in USA) is Iohannes. Of course, it
> the same that Jean, Jehan, John, Ioannis, Giovanni, H'ovannes, etc. etc.
Although your comment sounds OK, it is not the way it works. A person
(perhaps
not as much today) was baptized after a specific Saint.
For example: If you were named "JOHN" after the "John the Baptist" than you
celebrate your names day the 6th of January. There are some 50 or 60
Johns.
I am not 100% sure, but I believe that John and Johannes are two differenc
Saints.
> For "curopalatos", I'm really wrong. The good spelling is of course
"curopalates".
> The question is not to open a (classical) greek dictionnary, but to read
once
> a byzantine source.
Byzantine sources are not always credible. in Anna's book, "L'Alexiad" you
will
find all sorts of names and comments that we know are false.
Finally, I would like to point out that using "i" or "e" for example
"Diogenis" or "Diogenes"
does not really make any difference. Both are wrong.
Replacing K with C, U with OU, AI with E, are all OK, it's all a matter of
habit.
regards