de Lacy relatives???
Gordon Fisher
I have below 3 items concerning an assortment of de LACYs. Can anyone
provide me with connections between the various Hugh and Maud de LACYs, if
they are known to exist? Also, please note the question in ITEM 2 below,
posed earlier by Richard Borthwick. Was an answer to this question ever
posted?
Gordon Fisher gfi...@shentel.net
***************************************************************
ITEM 1
Descendants of Hugh de (3) LACY - 16 Feb 1998
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
FIRST GENERATION
1. Hugh (3) de LACY Earl of Ulster. *A New History of Ireland*, ed. T W
Moody, F X Martin, F J Byrne. vol IX, Oxford, 1984, genealogical table, p 166
Hugh (3) de LACY and (w of H3 de Lacy) --- had the following children:
+2 i. Maud de (1) LACY.
SECOND GENERATION
2. Maud (1) de LACY. *A New History of Ireland*, ed. T W Moody, F X
Martin, F J Byrne, vol IX, Oxford, 1984, genealogical table, p 166
[Married] DAVID OF NAAS (son of WILLIAM OF NAAS (2) Baron and Maud ---)
died in 1260. *A New History of Ireland*, ed. T W Moody, F X Martin, F J
Byrne. vol IX, Oxford, 1984, genealogical table, p 166
***********************************************************
ITEM 2
Descendants of Hugh (2) de LACY - 16 Feb 1998
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
FIRST GENERATION
1. Hugh (2) de LACY died in 1186. "HUGH II (ob. 1186) = (1) Rose of
Monmouth (ob. ante 1180) = (2) daughter of Rory O'Connor"
--- W E Wightman, *The Lacy Family in England and Normandy, 1066-1194*,
genealogical chart following p 260. A son is shown of Hugh (2) and ----
O'Connor, identified only as William. Besides the son Walter of Hugh (2)
and Rose of Monmouth, three other sons are shown, identified only as Hugh,
Gilbert and Robert.
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From: Richard Borthwick <rg...@CYLLENE.UWA.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Hugh II de LACY (d 1186) (addendum)
To: GEN-ME...@MAIL.EWORLD.COM
[snip]
Maud de Lacy (d.1302) wife of Geoffrey de Geneville (d.1314) was the
grandmother of Joan de Geneville (d.1356) wife of Roger de Mortimer (d.1330)
earl of March. Maud was the daughter of Gilbert de Lacy (d.v.p.1230) and
Isabel Bigod. This Gilbert was son of Walter de Lacy (d.1241) lord of Meath
and Margaret de Braose. The Geneville's were lords of Trim in Ireland. Joan
de Geneville lady of Trim was heir of her father Piers (1292). Joan's mother
was Jehanne de Lusignan (d.1325) lady of Pontarion in France.
A Lacy puzzle. Gilbert de Lacy (d.1230) had a younger brother Hugh (d.1243)
earl of Ulster. Hugh left no sons. *A New History of Ireland* (Oxford UP,
1984) eds. T W Moody, F X Martin and F J Byrne, IX:173 says he had a
daughter Egidia who married Walter de Burgh (d.1271) earl of Ulster. Walter
de Burgh's mother, another Egidia, was daughter of Walter de Lacy (d.1241).
The union of Walter de Burgh and Egidia daughter Hugh de Lacy earl of Ulster
is claimed to be the source of the susequent de Burgh earls of Ulster. This
runs counter to the information in *The Complete Peerage* XII/2:173 and
V:437 which gives Walter's wife as Aveline (d.1274) daughter and eventual
coheir in her issue of John Fitz Geoffrey (d.1258) lord of Shere and
Shalford, Surrey, and sometime Justiciar of Ireland. If Walter de Burgh's
wife was Egidia de Lacy and not Aveline, it would mean that he married his
first cousin once removed. Is CP wrong and *A new History of Ireland* correct?
Rose of MONMOUTH died before 1180. Hugh (2) de LACY and Rose of MONMOUTH
had the following children:
2 i. Walter (2) de LACY died in 1241. "WALTER II (ob. 1241)"
--- W E Wightman, *The Lacy Family in England and Normandy,
1066-1194*, genealogical chart following p 260.
***************************************************************
ITEM 3
Descendants of John de LACY Earl of Lincoln - 16 Feb 1998
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
FIRST GENERATION
1. John de LACY Earl of Lincoln died in 1240. "Alice (1) = JOHN de Lacy,
constable of Chester, earl of Lincoln (ob. 1240) and Chester) = (2)
Margaret de Quincy (co-heiress of Rannulf, earl of Lincoln and Chester)
--- W E Wightman, *The Lacy Family in England and Normandy, 1066-1194,
genealogical chart following p 260.
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From: jo...@owens.ridgecrest.ca.us (James of the Lake)
Newsgroups: alt.talk.royalty,soc.genealogy.medieval,soc.history.medieval
Subject: Re: John de Lacy, 1st Earl of Lincoln
Date: 20 Jan 1998 03:59:28 GMT
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John de Lacy, Baron of Halton and Lord of Pontefract, Constable of Chester
(from 1232 also Earl of Lincoln): "The paternal ancestry in the direct
male line of the historic family of Lacy is the same as that of the Vescis
(q.v.p. 99). John de Lacy's great-grandfather was Richard Fitz Eustace,
younger son of Eustace Fitz John (for whom see under Eustace de Vesci p.
103 and pedigree chart ff. p. 105). Richard married the heiress of Lacy.
Richard's grandson Roger took the name of Lacy. The descent is as
follows:
"The name Lacy or Laci, sometimes written Lacie, is derived from the
village of Lassy, near Vire in Normandy. Two brothers, Walter and Ilbert,
accompanied William the Conqueror to England and gave their name to two
separate families. Walter was the founder of the Lacys, Lords of Meath in
Ireland.
"Ilbert was granted by the Conqueror the town of Brokenbridge in
Yorkshire. This name was converted into French and called "Pontefract."
Ilbert was a Domesday Tenant and died about 1093.
"Robert I de Lacy, Lord of Pontefract and son of Ilbert, had two sons
and a daughter, who became eventually his heiress, as follows:
"I. Ilbert II, married Alice de Gant, but died without issue, after
which his widow married Roger de Mowbray and was the ancestress of the
great family of Mowbray (q.v.p. 110).
"II. Henry married Albreda de Vesci, whose father is believed to be
related to Ivo de Vesci, whose daughter Beatrice married Eustace Fitz John
(q.v.p. 102). They had a son Robert II, who d.s.p. in 1193 acc. The
Complete Peerage.
"III. Albreda (or Aubreye), who married Robert de Lizours and had a
daughter, also named Albreda, who married Richard Fitz Eustace (q.v.p.
102).
"Owing to the fact there were two ladies of the same name, Albreda,
sisters-in-law (in fact three, if Albreda de Lacy de Lizours' daughter
Albreda de Lizours who married Richard Fitz Eustace is included),
genealogists have been confused between them. Some pedigrees assume that
the heiress of Robert I de Lacy was his daughter-in-law Albreda de vEsci
de Lcy, widow of Henry and mother of Robert II de Lacy, who is erroneously
shown by these faulty pedigrees to have married as her second husband
Robert de Lizours. The fact is that it was really Robert I's daughter
Albreda de Lacy, Henry's sister, and Robert II's aunt, who married Robrt
de Lizours about 1129/30. They had a daughter, also named Albreda, who
about 1150 married Richard Fitz Eustace, sometimes called Robert Fitz
Eustace, who died before his father's death in 1157 (q.v.p. 102).
"Robert (sometimes called Eudo) de Lizours was the son of Fulc, a
Domesday tenant, descended from Osmond Basset, Baron of Normanville.
"Albreda de Lizours and Richard Fitz Eustace had a son John who
inherited the Barony of Halton and the Constableship of Chester from his
stepgrandfather Robert Fitz Count, upon the latter's death in 1166 (q.v.p.
103). John, known as John Fitz Richard, died on the 3rd Crusade in 1190.
He married Alice, daughter of Roger Fitz Richard and Alice de Vere, known
as "Alice of Essex," and sister of Robert Fitz Roger, father of the
Surety, John Fitz Robert de Clavering (q.v.p. 79 and 133). Alice and John
Fitz Richard were the parents of Roger Fitz John, who in 1190 inherited
the Barony of Halton and the Constableship of Chester from his father,
John Fitz Richard. In 1193 Roger Fitz John's grandmother Albreda de
Lizours inherited the Lordship of Pontefract from her cousin Robert II de
Lacy, the son of Henry de Lacy and Albreda de Vesci. In 1194 Albreda
bestowed Pontefract on Roger Fitz John, who thereupon took the name of
Lacy. This Roger de Lacy married Maud, daughter of the Surety Richard de
Clare, Earl of Clare and Hertford. They had a son John de Lacy, the
Surety."
John de LACY Earl of Lincoln and MARGARET DE QUINCY had the following
children:
+2 i. Maud de (2) LACY.
SECOND GENERATION
2. Maud de (2) LACY died in 1289. "Maud de Lacy, widow of Richard, earl
of Gloucester, outlived her husband by more than a quarter of a century,
dying in March 1289. From 1262 until her death she held one-third of the
Clare inheritance in dower, although her son Earl Gilbert the Red did
successfully challenge the original composition of her dower portion, which
was readjusted in 1267. Maud did not remarry, preferring to spend her long
widowhood living off the revenues of her estates, contributing handsomely
to ecclesiastical foundations, and helping to promote her children. Her
activities on behalf of her daughters Margaret and Rohese have been noted
[see note under her husband Richard], and she also attempted, with less
success, to present her son Bogo to the church of Adlingfleet in Yorkshire.
Her gifts to religious houses were numerous. In 1248 Earl Richard founded
Clare Priory, the first house of Austin Friars in England, and after his
death the countess continued his generosity with several grants of land to
the priory. In addition, a scheme to found an Augustinian nunnery
attracted her. In 1284 she refounded the priory of Canonsleigh in Devon.
Canonsleigh was originally established for seven Augustinian canons by
Walter de Clavill, a mesne tenant of the honor of Gloucester, but in 1284
Maud provided an annual gift of L200 for the support of an abbess and 40
canonesses of that order. She had originally had the idea of doing this
for Sandleford Priory in Berkshire, but for some reason the plan fell
through in 1274, and a decade later she refounded Canonsleigh instead. By
1286 the new nunnery was in existence, and the dispossessed canons were
under royal protection."
--- Michael Altschul, *A Baronial Family in Medieval England: The
Clares, 1217-1314*, Baltimore MD (Johns Hopkins Press) 1965. p 36-37
She was married to Sir Richard (3) de CLARE 8th Earl of Clare, etc (son of
Gilbert (2) de CLARE 7th Earl of Clare, etc and Isabel MARSHAL) about 25
Jan 1237/38. Sir Richard (3) de CLARE 8th Earl of Clare, etc was born on 4
Aug 1222. He died on 15 Jul 1262. "SIR RICHARD DE CLARE, b. 4. Aug. 1222,
d. 15 July 1262, 8th Earl of Clare, Earl of Hertford and Gloucester; m. (2)
ca. 25 Jan. 1237/8, MAUD DE LACY ... Countess of Lincoln, d. bef. 10 Mar.
1288/9."
--- Frederick Lewis Weis and Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr., *Ancestral Roots
of Certain American Colonists*, 7th edition, Baltimore MD (Genealogical
Publishing Co) 1992-3, p 67
"With the next generation, the Clare family reached the height of its
prominence in the thirteenth century. Earl Richard de Clare was twice
married, secretly in 1232 to Meggotta, daughter of the justiciar Hubert de
Burgh, who had Richard's custody during his minority after 1230, and in
1237 to Maud, daughter of John de Lacy, earl of Lincoln (d. 1240). There
was no issue by the ill-fated first marriage, but by Maud de Lacy Richard
had three sons and four daughters. The eldest son and heir, Gilbert, was
born on September 2, 1243, and was called Gilbert Goch ("the Red") after
the fiery color of his hair. The Red Earl had seisin of his estates in
1263-64 and was undoubtedly the single most powerful magnate of the realm,
in the later years of Henry III's reign and under King Edward I, until his
death on December 7, 1295. The second son, Thomas, born sometime between
1244 and 1247, and the youngest, Bogo, born in 1248, had remarkably
dissimilar but equally significant careers. Thomas, who died in 1287, was
a close friend of Edward I and one of the most important members of the
lesser baronage in his reign. He entered royal service and in a manner
reminiscent of his ancestor Strongbow a century earlier, succeeded in
establishing himself among the great Anglo-Irish magnates in the late
thirteenth century by conquering the lordship of Thomond (modern County
Clare). He left two legitimate sons who succeeded him, Gilbert (d. 1308)
and Richard (d. 1318), a bastard son Master Richard, who died in 1338, and
two daughters, Maud, the wife of Robert de Clifford of Westmoreland (d.
1314) and robert de Welle, and Margaret, the wife of Gilbert de Umphraville
(d. 1307), son of the earl of Angus, and Bartholomew de Badlesmere (d.
1322). Thomas' brother Bogo, on the other hand, had what might
conservatively be described as a colorful ecclesiastical career, and by the
time of his death in 1294 had made himself the most successful and
notorious pluralist in the English Church. The careers of Earl Gilbert the
Red's two brothers are well documentemd, and are good examples of the ways
in which such men could progit from family influence and power; more
importantly, they provide excellent illustrations of the kinds of
opportunities available in contemporary society to younger members of great
baronial houses. For these reasons, a detailed examination of their
careers has been reserved for a separate chapter (Chapter VI). (P) Of Earl
Richard's four daughters, three married well, the fourth, Eglentina, dying
in infancy in 1257. The eldest, Isabel, born in 1240, was married in June
1258 to an important nobleman, William, marquis de Montferrat. Earl
Richard paid the marquis 4,000 marks to secure the marriage, and allowed
him a choice of brides in addition. Since Isabel was about eighteen and
her surviving sisters each less than eight years old, the choice must have
been easy. They were married at Lyons, and Isabel seems never to have
returned to England. Montferrat was a lordship in northern Italy,
technically a member of the Empire but subject to Provencal and Angevin
influences. The marquis was a prominent figure on the Ghibelline side in
thirteenth century Mediterranean politics, but nothing further is known of
Isabel. She probably died sometime before 1271, since the marquis married
a daughter of King Alfonso X of Castile in that year. The second daughter,
Margaret, was born in 1250 and was unmarried at the time of her father's
death in 1262. In 1272, probably by arrangement with her mother Maud and
her brothers Bogo and Earl Gilbert, she was married to Edmund, son and heir
of Richard of Cornwall by his second marriage. Margaret's marriage,
however, was an unhappy one. She seems to have been pregnant in 1285, but
either miscarried or had a stillborn child. Perhaps because she was unable
to have children thereafter, Edmund left her in 1289. For the next two or
three years, efforts were made by such people as John Peckham, archbishop
of Canterbury, and Bogo de Clare, to reconcile them, but they were
unsuccessful and the marriage was formally annulled in 1294. In 1300
Edmund died and Margaret was assigned dower by Edward I. She did not
remarry and lived in seclusion until her own death in 1312. The third
daughter, Rohese, born in 1252, was married in 1270 to a member of the
lesser baronage, Roger de Mowbray, lord of the Yorkshire barony of Thirsk
(d. 1297). Again, the marriage was arranged by her mother, the dowager
Countess Maud, and her brother Bogo."
--- Michael Altschul, *A Baronial Family in Medieval England: The
Clares, 1217-1314*, Baltimore MD (Johns Hopkins Press) 1965. p 34-36
From same, p 92: "On July 15, 1262, the day after the king sailed to
France, Earl Richard de Clare died. Two weeks later he was buried at
Tewkesbury Abbey. The earl had not played a conspicuous role in the
baronial movement since the settle ment of 1261; he had been in ill health
for some months before his death, and rumors circulated that he had been
poisoned. [Footnote by Altschul: "E.g., Dunstable, p. 219' *Annales
Cambriae*, pp. 99-100, where "Gilbert" is wrongly given for "Richard."
These chronicles have probably confused the earl's natural death with the
alleged poison plot of 1258."]" [Was Richard maybe poisoned at the
instigation of Simon de Montfort or some of his allies? Henry had settled
with the rebellious barons in 1261 (p 92). Richard de Clare had at first
sided with the barons in the antiroyalist movement which began in the
summer of 1258 or thereabouts (p 82-87), but appears to have withdrawn
support shortly after December 1258 (p 87). Maud de (2) LACY and Sir
Richard (3) de CLARE 8th Earl of Clare, etc had the following children:
3 i. Isabel (2) de CLARE was born in 1240. She died prob bef 1271. See
note under her father Richard
+4 ii. Gilbert (3) de CLARE 6th Earl of Gloucester, "the Red".
+5 iii. Thomas de CLARE.
6 iv. Bogo de CLARE was born in 1248. He died in 1294. See note under
his father Richard
7 v. Margaret (1) de CLARE was born in 1250. She died in 1312. See note
under her father Richard
8 vi. Rohese de CLARE was born in 1252. See note under her father Richard
9 vii. Eglentina de CLARE died in 1257 in infancy. See note under her
father Richard
Jim Stevens
Gordon Fisher wrote:
>I have below 3 items concerning an assortment of de LACYs. Can anyone
>provide me with connections between the various Hugh and Maud de LACYs, if
>they are known to exist? Also, please note the question in ITEM 2 below,
>posed earlier by Richard Borthwick. Was an answer to this question ever
>posted?
(snip)
>A Lacy puzzle. Gilbert de Lacy (d.1230) had a younger brother Hugh (d.1243)
>earl of Ulster. Hugh left no sons. *A New History of Ireland* (Oxford UP,
>1984) eds. T W Moody, F X Martin and F J Byrne, IX:173 says he had a
>daughter Egidia who married Walter de Burgh (d.1271) earl of Ulster. Walter
>de Burgh's mother, another Egidia, was daughter of Walter de Lacy (d.1241).
>The union of Walter de Burgh and Egidia daughter Hugh de Lacy earl of Ulster
>is claimed to be the source of the susequent de Burgh earls of Ulster. This
>runs counter to the information in *The Complete Peerage* XII/2:173 and
>V:437 which gives Walter's wife as Aveline (d.1274) daughter and eventual
>coheir in her issue of John Fitz Geoffrey (d.1258) lord of Shere and
>Shalford, Surrey, and sometime Justiciar of Ireland. If Walter de Burgh's
>wife was Egidia de Lacy and not Aveline, it would mean that he married his
>first cousin once removed. Is CP wrong and *A new History of Ireland* correct?
On page 72 of his recent book, "The Legacy of the De Lacy, Lacey, Lacy
Family, 1066-1994, Gerard Lacey, one of the most active researchers on this
family, writes:
"Egidia (Alice) de Lacy, daughter of Walter de Lacy, Married Richard de
Burgh in 1225, and they parented Walter de Burgh who became Lord of
Connaught. Walter married twice, once to Avalina, daughter of John
FitzGoeffrey, and Isabelle Bigod, Gilbert de Lacy's widow. (Royal Society
of Antiquaries of Ireland) and once to Mary de Lacy, daughter of Hugh de
Lacy (according to the Roll of the House of Lacy). Richard and Egida
(Alice) de Burgh's descendants, went on to become the progenitors of
Richard, Duke of York. . ."
The above, combined with other sources I've used, yields the following diagram.
Comments please ?
Hugh de Lacy
Lord of Meath
1115-1186
|
_____________________________________|______________
| |
Walter de Lacy Margaret |
Lord of Meath = de Braose Hugh de Lacy
1172-1241 | E of Ulster
| d.1243
______________|____________________ |
| | |
Gilbert Isabel John Egida Richard de Burgh |
de Lacy = Bigod = FitzGeoffrey de Lacy = Lord of Connaught |
1206-1230 | | d.1242 |
|____________ | |
| Walter de Burgh |
Avalina = Earl of Ulster = Mary de Lacy
| 1230-1271
|
|
Richard de Burgh
Earl of Ulster
1259-1326
Today is the first day of the rest of your life ! (jste...@iquest.net) Jim
Visit my genealogy website at
http://www.gendex.com/users/jast
Richard Borthwick
Egidia de L wife of Richard de Burgh or about the marriage. The problem is
about a second Egidia de Lacy whom Mr Gerard Lacey calls 'Mary'.
CP XII/2:173 only gives Walter de B (d.1271) one wife, Aveline, and as you
have done makes Richard de B (d.1326) her son. I have located (I think) the
source of the alleged other wife "Mary" (or according to *A New History of
Ireland* eds. T W Moody, F X Martin and F J Byrne, IX:173 "Egidia") dau of
Hugh de L (d.1243) earl of Ulster. CP in a note 172 (f) says "The untrue
statement in *Chart. of St Mary's* (vol.II p.315) that Hugh de Lacy, Earl of
Ulster, died 'relinquens filiam heredem, quam desponsavit Walterus de Burgo
qui fuit Comes Ultonie' [i.e. leaving as heir a daughter whom Walter de B
earl of Ulster married] has been amplified by many later writers to mean
that Walter became Earl of Ulster in right of his wife. This is equally
false. See Orpen op.cit. [i.e. *Ireland under the Normans*], vol iii, pp.
265-267". Unless there has been a re-evaluation of the evidence it would
seem that there are two mistakes involved here. The first is that Walter be
B married a dau of Hugh de L and, secondly, Walter was earl of Ulster in
virtue of his supposed marriage to such a dau. The problem is that
(Mary)/Egidia de Lacy is given by the respectable *A New History of Ireland*
not only as a wife of Walter de B but also as the mother of his heir (as
against Aveline being the mother of his heir). If CP and Orpen are correct
then there is no problem and one might suspect that Mr G Lacey and the
editors of ANHI were following the *Chartulary of St Mary's* or the
'amplifications' to which it gave rise (e.g. in the sources used by Mr Lacey).
>