Audrey BARLOW descent from FitzAlans

[CMW1...@aol.com]

Many thanks to Leslie Mahler and John Brandon for their work on the ancestry
of Audrey Barlow, wife of William Almy of Rhode Island. Reviewing their
work and earlier postings to this list, I find an apparent link for Margaret
Tame, great-grandmother of Audrey Barlow (wife of William Almy, who left England
and eventually settled in RI), from the FitzAlan Earls of Arundel. I would
appreciate any comments regarding the validity of this line of descent. I
attribute this, in part, to a posting made in August regarding a proposed
royal descent for Rodolphus Elmes, of Scituate, MA.

Sir Edmund FitzAlan, 9th Earl of Arundel = Alice de Warenne
Eleanor FitzAlan = Sir Gerard de Lisle, 1st Baron Lisle
Margaret de Lisle = Edmund Stonor
Sir Ralph Stonor = Joan Belknap
Thomas Stonor, of Stonor, Oxfordshire = Alice Kirby
Alice Stonor = Sir Humphrey Forster, of Harpsden, Oxfordshire
Jane Forster m. John Greville, of Drayton, Oxfordshire
[Agnes?] Greville m. Sir Edmund Tame, of Fairford
Margaret Tame m. Sir Humphrey Stafford (d.1548)

The August post to this list gives the following reference for the marriage
of Edmund Stonor and Margaret Lisle:

Charles Lethbridge Kingsford and Christine Carpenter, eds., Kingsford’s
Stonor Letters and Papers: 1290-1483,(Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press,
1996), 32-33, 45-49. Page 45 describes Edmund de Stonor’s marriage to
Margaret de Lisle as follows: “Edmund de Stonor died on 25 April, 1382. His wife
seems to have been a sister of Waryn de l’Isle. By her he had three sons,
Edmund, who died before him, John and Ralph, and one daughter Elizabeth.” Footnote:
“5 See No. 17. She is possibly the Dame Margaret of No. 29.”

It also cites William Harvey and Walter C. Metcalfe, The Visitation of
Berkshire in 1566, (Exeter, UK: Printed by William Pollard, 1885), p. 12, which
would cover the generations of Thomas Stonor and Alice Kirby as well as Alice
Stonor and Sir Humphrey Forster.

Douglas Richardson has made postings to this list regarding Sir Edward
Greville, of Milcote, brother-in-law of Sir Edmund Tame, and also posted a
biography of this gentleman (posted 27 June 2006). His posting of 23 June 2006
alludes to the marriage of Sir Edmund Tame's daughter, Margaret, to Sir Humphrey
Stafford.

I would welcome comments on the validity of this descent from the FitzAlans
as well as any references.

I have found that some have identified, apparently incorrectly, Alice
Stonor, wife of Sir Humphrey Forster, as the daughter of Thomas Stonor and Joan de
la Pole, a natural daughter of the 1st Duke of Suffolk. However, this
appears implausible based on the chronology. Alice appears to be the sister of
the Thomas Stonor who married Joan de la Pole, both being children of Thomas
Stonor and Alice Kirby.

Charles Ward

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[wjho...@aol.com]

Could you be more specific about what chronological problems you have
with placing Alice Stonor as daughter of Jane de la Pole?

Thanks

[CMW1...@aol.com]

As I indicated in my original posting, my information is meager. I had
originally suspected Alice Stonor might be the daughter of Joan de la Pole, but a
review of postings on this list and e-mail exchanges with a respected
genealogist argued she belonged to the earlier generation, placing her as the
daughter of Thomas Stonor and Alice Kirby, this couple being the parents of the
Thomas Stonor who married Joan de la Pole.

I will relate what little I have regarding the chronology.

Joan de la Pole was born about 1430. Note the following:

"The nighte before that he was yolden (yielded himself up in surrender to
the Franco-Scottish forces of Joan of Arc on 12 June 1429) he laye in bed with
a Nonne whom he toke oute of holy profession and defouled, whose name was
Malyne de Cay, by whom he gate a daughter, now married to Stonard of
Oxonfordshire". (Historic MSS Commission, 3rd Report, pps.279-280).

Joan de la Pole is said to have married Thomas Stonor before 1450, although
I don't have a reference for this date estimate, that does seem acceptable
without anything to contradict it at this point.

Sir Edward Greville, of Milcote, brother-in-law of Sir Edmund Tame who
married Agnes Greville, was born about the year 1474 according to one estimate I
have on hand. Frankly, I don't know if that is accurate. Douglas Richardson
posted a biographical sketch of Sir Edward to this list, but it doesn't
provide a birth estimate.

We therefore know that Joan de la Pole was born about 1430. If the birth
estimate for Sir Edward Greville of about 1474 is accurate (and I state
again that I am not at all confident in this estimate), then we would have the
following:

Joan de la Pole (b.1430) = Thomas Stonor

Alice Stonor = Sir Humphrey Forster

Jane Forster = John Greville

Sir Edward Greville, born about 1474 ??? (brother of Agnes, wife of Sir
Edmund Tame)

Obviously, if Sir Edward was in fact born about 1474, then it seems highly
unlikely that he would have a great-grandmother born about 1430, which although
possible, would require three successive generations giving birth at
approximately fourteen years of age or so, which is improbable.

As I indicated, my records are meager. If the birth estimate for Sir
Edward Greville is wrong and off considerably, or even slightly, then it might be
possible Joan de la Pole could be the mother of Alice Stonor.

It would be very desirable to ascertain the birth estimates for Alice Stonor
and Jane Forster as well, but I do no have the sources on hand for either.

Although Sir Edmund Tame is famous in a minor sort of way for a monumental
brass depicting him and his two wives, I don't have access to any dates
pertaining to when he was born or when his wife, Agnes, was born. Douglas
Richardson posted that Sir Edmund's daughter, Margaret, was married to Sir Humphrey
Stafford by settlement dated 1528.

It would be great if my original suspicion might be proven correct.
However, at this point, with meager information to go upon, it appears that Alice
Stonor, wife of Sir Humphrey Forster, probably wasn't a daughter of Thomas
Stonor and Joan de la Pole, but instead was a sister of this Thomas and thus a
daughter of Thomas Stonor and Alice Kirby. I would be happy to be proven
wrong.

[wjho...@aol.com]

I think you've already pin-pointed the problem. The estimate for
birthyear for Edward Greville doesn't seem to be based on any evidence.

So throw that out and then see how it fits.

Will Johnson

-----Original Message-----
From: CMW1...@aol.com
To: GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com
Cc: WJho...@aol.com
Sent: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 12:42:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Subject: Re: Audrey BARLOW descent from FitzAlans

WJho...@aol.com wrote:
 
>>>>

Could you be more specific about what chronological problems you have
with placing Alice Stonor as daughter of Jane de la Pole?
 
Thanks

<<<<<<<<

[CMW1...@aol.com]

I'm happy to do so and hope that some of the contributors to this list might
be able to provide some references that can be used to better determine
estimates of birth, etc.

I should stress that Ann Sharp _A...@pge.com_ (mailto:Ax...@pge.com) , citing
THE STONOR LETTERS AND PAPERS, states

"Alice is Sir William Stonor's aunt, not his sister. She was the daughter of
Thomas Stonor and Alice Kirby, married Humphrey Forster, etc., etc."

This is taken from a posting she made to this list dated 17 Nov 1998. I
have sent her an e-mail, but received no response.

Charles Ward

In a message dated 10/24/2008 2:23:37 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, WJhonson
writes:

I think you've already pin-pointed the problem. The estimate for
birthyear for Edward Greville doesn't seem to be based on any evidence.

So throw that out and then see how it fits.

Will Johnson

**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites,

no registration required and great graphics – check it out!

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http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)

[John H]

I show following family of John Greville & Lady Jane (nee Forster):
(1) Ann Greville, m: Thomas Denton
(2) Elizabeth Greville m: Thomas Neville
(3) Agnes Greville m: Edmund Tame

(4) Edward Greville m: Anne Denton
(Edwards Will made 21/6/1528 proved 1/10/1529 (U269 T246/2).
He died sometime between June 1528 and October 1529. (20 Henry Vlll))
So if born 1474 would have been 53-54 years old at death.
Edward & Annes 6 children appear to be have born between 1487 and 1514.
So his birth year looks reasonable for them also.
+++
John the son of Edward & Ann, who was born 1487 died 1548
(Original bundle of Wills of the Sackville and Cranfield families and of
members of some other families - ref. U269/T83 [notdated]
item: Probate copy of the Will of John Greville made 1546 - ref.
U269/T83/20 - date: 1548)
+++
(5) Robert Greville m: Isabel Wyncott
(6) Maria Greville m: Robert Sommerville
The source for the people is
The Visitation of Gloucestershire 1623
Naturally the visitation has no dates.

SO IF ANYONE CAN COME UP WITH any birth dates of the above people then they
may work out
what is a more correct time line for Edward (above) birth year, if the 1474
is wildy wrong!
I show :
1474 for Edward
1490 for Robert
1505 for Isabel Wyncott (Roberts wife)
1469 for Anne Denton born Amesden, Buckinghamshire, England (Edwards wife),
so if this one is correct then Edwards may not be far out of left field!
The rest I have no dates of birth year
Sadly I dont have any source for those dates either.
++++
Not sure if any of the below helps with curent thread, but here it is
anyway.

Visitation of Gloucestershire 1623 pages which refer to Greville persons
are:
Greville - Palmer pg 119
Greville - Poyntz pg 128
Greville - Taylor pg 159
Greville - Tracey (Wye) pg 165
Greville - Wye pg 187
Greville - Bushell pg 241 (Margaret is shown as daughter of a Sir Edward
Greville but she is his sister)
Greville - Tame pg 260

Also Visitation of Wiltshire 1623 which refer to Greville persons
Greville - Goddard pg 18
Greville -
Greville Richard's family pg 70

Also Visitation of Worcestershire 1569 which refer to Greville persons
Greville - Bushell pg 29 (This one gets a Edward Greville with a sister
Margaret correct unlike to GLS visitation of 1623)
Greville - Hereward pg 77
Greville - Vampage pg 138
++++
I also see that there is a tree on them at
> http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=PED&db=thamm&id=I47928&style=TABLE <
(wouldnt know about its accuracy, its unknown previously to me).
++++

John H

<CMW1...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.121.12248302...@rootsweb.com...

I'm happy to do so and hope that some of the contributors to this list
might
be able to provide some references that can be used to better determine
estimates of birth, etc.

I should stress that Ann Sharp _A...@pge.com_ (mailto:Ax...@pge.com) , citing
THE STONOR LETTERS AND PAPERS, states

"Alice is Sir William Stonor's aunt, not his sister. She was the daughter
of
Thomas Stonor and Alice Kirby, married Humphrey Forster, etc., etc."

This is taken from a posting she made to this list dated 17 Nov 1998. I
have sent her an e-mail, but received no response.

Charles Ward

In a message dated 10/24/2008 2:23:37 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, WJhonson
writes:

I think you've already pin-pointed the problem. The estimate for
birthyear for Edward Greville doesn't seem to be based on any evidence.

So throw that out and then see how it fits.

Will Johnson

**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your
favorites,

no registration required and great graphics - check it out!
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http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)

[pj.evans]

On Oct 24, 5:52 am, "John H" <johnH4...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I show following family of John Greville & Lady Jane (nee Forster):
> (1) Ann Greville, m: Thomas Denton
> (2) Elizabeth Greville m: Thomas Neville
> (3) Agnes Greville m: Edmund Tame
>
> (4) Edward Greville m:  Anne Denton
> (Edwards Will made 21/6/1528 proved 1/10/1529 (U269 T246/2).
> He died sometime between June 1528 and October 1529. (20 Henry Vlll))
> So if born 1474 would have been  53-54 years old at death.
> Edward & Annes 6 children appear to be have born between 1487 and 1514.
> So his birth year looks reasonable for them also.
> +++
> John the son of Edward & Ann, who was born 1487 died 1548
> (Original bundle of Wills of the Sackville and Cranfield families and of
> members of some other families - ref.  U269/T83 [notdated]
>             item: Probate copy of the Will of John Greville made 1546 - ref.
> U269/T83/20  - date: 1548)

[snip]

If Edward's son John was born in 1487, I'd expect Edward to have been
born no later than 1471 or 1472, and probably closer to 1468.

[Steve Donahue]

From Burke's
A Genealogical and Heraldic History of the Commoners of Great Britain,
page 441

"Thomas Stoner, of Stonor, who married Alice, d. of Sir John Kirkeby,
knt. of Kent, and had issue:
Thomas, his successor
Phillippa, m. to Sir William Harleston of Denham in the county of Suffolk
Matilda, m. to Hugh Lewis of Essex
Jane, m. to ___ Cottesmore
Alice, m. to Humphrey Foster of Harpenden, in Oxfordshire"

Found here with more info on the family
http://books.google.com/books?id=vuVsAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA444&dq=stonor&as_brr=1#PPA441,M1

Steve Donahue

CMW1...@aol.com wrote:
> I'm happy to do so and hope that some of the contributors to this list might
> be able to provide some references that can be used to better determine
> estimates of birth, etc.
>
> I should stress that Ann Sharp _A...@pge.com_ (mailto:Ax...@pge.com) , citing
> THE STONOR LETTERS AND PAPERS, states
>
> "Alice is Sir William Stonor's aunt, not his sister. She was the daughter of
> Thomas Stonor and Alice Kirby, married Humphrey Forster, etc., etc."
>
> This is taken from a posting she made to this list dated 17 Nov 1998. I
> have sent her an e-mail, but received no response.
>
> Charles Ward
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 10/24/2008 2:23:37 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, WJhonson
> writes:
>
> I think you've already pin-pointed the problem. The estimate for
> birthyear for Edward Greville doesn't seem to be based on any evidence.
>
> So throw that out and then see how it fits.
>
> Will Johnson
>
>
> **************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites,

> no registration required and great graphics – check it out!
> (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1211202682x1200689022/aol?redir=
> http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
>
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>

[John H]

Why would you expect that in particular?

Many married at 12 years+ or contracted to marry much earlier than 10 years
of age, and if this had occured,
1474 birth of Edward father to John 1487 birth works just "as expected" as
your guess.
=====
Edwards parents, John Greville and Jane Forster were supposedly married
c1472,
so Edward would (if he was the first child) be born no earlier than late
1472 or early 1473.
From Joseph Edmondsons 1766 book on Greville familly:
Edmondson says he was the first son (not necessarily the first child)
Edmondson shows: (in this order, so was Maria the eldest?)
Maria + Robert Sommerville
Edward + Anne Denton
Robert + Dorothy Morgan (Different wife to GLS 1623 visitation)
Anne + Thomas Neville (Whereas GLS visitation says Thomas Denton)
No mention of Elizabeth or Agnes though.
and he has no dates for births of any of them either.

This group went in circles on some of these people last time,
re Thomas Neville(s)/Denton and Ann(e) Greville's as there are more than
one of each.

Interesting that the 1474 appears quite often around the place, none of whom
have any source for the date.

All IGI entries at batch # 6020175 showing 1474 are LDS member submissions ,
which are usually "pie in the Sky".
so once again nothing is yet really proven re Edward's birth year.

So back to my asking whether anyone can come up with any birth years on any
of the people listed,
which would put a more definitive birth year for this Edward supposedly born
c1474.

John H
---------------------------------------
P Evans replied off list re above to John H thus:

Reason: Biology.
It's extremely unlikely that he could have fathered a child at 13. His wife
would have been about the same age, and she probably wouldn't have survived.
(This was discussed thoroughly in connection to someone else, not too long
ago.) Marriage at that age, yes; children, not likely. I can see him
fathering
a child at 17 or so, but not before 15 or 16.
---------------------------------------

"pj.evans" <pj.eva...@usa.net> wrote in message
news:e08c00a5-f722-485f...@v22g2000pro.googlegroups.com...

[WJho...@aol.com]

John although males were *contracted* to marry (espoused) at young ages,
that does not mean, and their parents did not allow them, to have sex and
children.

That's the error in the thinking here.

[WJho...@aol.com]

On the particular question of chronology in the Greville of Milcote family,
we know from IPMs that

Ludovic Greville was "22 and more" at his father's death which occurred "on
the eve of Christmas Day 1559" (I assume they mean the 24th of Dec)

This father was Edward Greville of Milcote, heir of his own father John of
Milcote. John died Nov 1548 and at that time Edward was "aged 30 and more"

John Greville of Milcote's father was Edward Greville of Milcote who died in
1529 but who was active in the Battle of Spurs in 1513

Edward Greville was the son and heir of his parents John Greville of Milcote
and Jane Forster who were both dead by 21 Apr 1507.

So that should at least give us a rough chronology from which to fill in the
gaps.

Will Johnson

[Adams Family]

HI Will,
I dont disagree with any of your statement below:

I have Ludovic born c 1535 born at Milcote and his brother John born c 1532
I show a marriage settlement of Ludovic Greville and Thomasyn Petre, with
signature and seal of Sir William Petre;
and their marriage at St Botolphs, Aldersgate Essex on 10th Feb 1560.
++++
Essex records office shows following at ref Code D/DP/F1 (1555-1561)
Scope and Content Articles of Agreement, 1555, for the proposed marriage of
Thomasin, eldest daughter of Sir William Petre Kt., to Lodowick GREVILLE, s.
and h. app. of Sir Edward GREVILLE, Kt., before Midsummer, 1560,`if the said
Thomasyn will ther unto agree';Pre-nuptial Settlement, 1558, in pursuance of
the above; and Bill of Acquittance, 1561, from Lodowick GREVILLE to Sir
William Petre, on receipt of the final instalment of £200, part of
Thomasin's dowry of 1000 Marks. [ The dowry had been fixed at 600 marks and
Sir Wm. was either to procure some `advauncement or preferment' for the
younger children of Sir Edward GREVILLE or pay a further 400 marks. By the
Settlement Sir Edward GREVILLE entailed the manor of Drayton (co. oxon).),
properties in Welford (co. Glos.), manor of Meyne (co. Glos.) and the manor
of Seasencote (co.Glos.), in fee or in reversion, subject to certain
financial provisos, on the intended husband and wife.)
++++
John H

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJho...@aol.com>
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 11:18 AM
Subject: Re: Audrey BARLOW descent from FitzAlans

[lma...@att.net]

On Oct 23, 11:37 pm, CMW12...@aol.com wrote:
> I'm happy to do so and hope that some of the contributors to this list might
> be able to provide some references that can be used to better determine
> estimates of birth, etc.
>

> I should stress that Ann Sharp _A...@pge.com_ (mailto:A...@pge.com) , citing

> THE STONOR LETTERS AND PAPERS, states
>
> "Alice is Sir William Stonor's aunt, not his sister. She was the daughter of
> Thomas Stonor and Alice Kirby, married Humphrey Forster, etc., etc."
>
> This is taken from a posting she made to this list dated 17 Nov 1998. I
> have sent her an e-mail, but received no response.
>
> Charles Ward

Notice also that the summary of Thomas Stonor's family in
Magna Carta Ancestry shows him having a daughter Alice, wife of
Richard Harcourt, knight. Nothing is said of her marrying Humphrey
Forster.

http://books.google.com/books?id=wHZcIRMhSEMC&printsec=frontcover&dq=magna+carta+ancestry&lr=#PPA270,M1

One of the references cited is the Stonor Family Papers.

Leslie

[WJho...@aol.com]

Thanks John. I hadn't quite realized that this "Thomasine Peters" was that
"Thomasine Petre" daughter of William the Secretary of State (by his first
wife Gertrude Tyrrell).

Interesting to read about how their son and heir Ludovic Greville was
executed by being "pressed to death" (14 Nov 1589) for murdering a man whose
property he wanted..

Ludovic's son and heir Edward Greville was Sheriff of co Warwick 1595

[WJho...@aol.com]

John sent me privately a story from a magazine about this man whom I
mentioned was "pressed to death". The article said "I don't know what that means..."

There was a movie I remember from my childhood about the Salem witch trials
and one of the accused was pressed to death. You put a board on top of the
person and then pile rocks on top of it, until they are dead. I think maybe
you need a board under them too so they don't just sink into soft ground or
whatever.

I suppose they probably suffocate from not being able to breathe before they
are literally squished. I don't think it ever really gets that far (how
much weight would it take to crush bones?)

[pj.evans]

On Oct 28, 8:39 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
> John sent me privately a story from a magazine about this man whom I  
> mentioned was "pressed to death".  The article said "I don't know what that  means..."
>
> There was a movie I remember from my childhood about the Salem witch trials  
> and one of the accused was pressed to death.  You put a board on top of the  
> person and then pile rocks on top of it, until they are dead.  I think  maybe
> you need a board under them too so they don't just sink into soft ground  or
> whatever.
>
> I suppose they probably suffocate from not being able to breathe before  they
> are literally squished.  I don't think it ever really gets that far  (how
> much weight would it take to crush bones?)

I don't know how much weight it takes, but I do know the technical
term is 'compression asphyxiation'. I also know of a man who died that
way a couple of years ago, when a semi trailer loaded with vegetables
spilled them into the car he was riding in.

[Nathaniel Taylor]

In article <mailman.457.12252515...@rootsweb.com>,
WJho...@aol.com wrote:

> John sent me privately a story from a magazine about this man whom I
> mentioned was "pressed to death". The article said "I don't know what that
> means..."
>
> There was a movie I remember from my childhood about the Salem witch trials
> and one of the accused was pressed to death. You put a board on top of the
> person and then pile rocks on top of it, until they are dead. I think maybe
> you need a board under them too so they don't just sink into soft ground or
> whatever.
>
> I suppose they probably suffocate from not being able to breathe before they
> are literally squished. I don't think it ever really gets that far (how
> much weight would it take to crush bones?)

Just FYI Pressing (formally called 'peine forte et dure') was not used
in English criminal procedure as a capital punishment for someone
convicted of a crime; rather it was retained as a coercive resource for
accused criminals who refused to plead. Giles Corey (the Salem man) was
pressed to death because he refused to enter a plea. So to was a member
of the Calverley family of Calverley, Yorkshire, who had murdered his
own wife and children (in Calverley Hall, where one can stay as a guest
of the UK Landmark Trust). This lovely man was a fourth or fifth cousin
of William Wentworth of New Hampshire; see

http://nltaylor.net/sketchbook/archives/54

Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://www.nltaylor.net/sketchbook/

[WJho...@aol.com]

In a message dated 10/28/2008 9:40:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
nlta...@nltaylor.net writes:

rather it was retained as a coercive resource for
accused criminals who refused to plead.>>

---------------
Are there any cases where the person as they were being pressed, gasped out
"Oh.... Wait... Ok... I'll.... p...." (and then died) ;)

OK well maybe not died. I mean if it's coercive I expect that there must
have been at least a few cases where it worked.