Hastings Pedigree (corrections)
Richard Borthwick
>I fear my question of a few minutes ago re Robert de Hastings wasn't well
>designed to gain a very helpful answer. Of course the two Roberts may well
>be the same, and he simply had two wives (Maud de Flamville and Isabel
>grdda. of Walter Fitz Other). What I'm really asking is for help in
>sequencing Robert among the Hastings and his wife among the Flamvilles (if
>that is right). Cheers for your patience!
>
>Cris
I am getting to an age when I should NEVER write anything without all the
sources in front of me! I did not have the Moriarty papers in front of me
last night and thought I accurately recalled what they said. I was
mistaken. So here is a re-write.
The connection between the two Flamville families is not known, but little
doubt that they are the same family group. Roger (II) de F. (d.1169) and
his wife Juetta de Arches (d.about 1206) had a daughter Maud (d.after 1219)
who married Robert de Hastings (d.about 1190). If Robert has a wife Isabel
(and there is some doubt about this - Sanders expresses some caution) she
would have been his first wife as Moriarty points out in his earlier paper.
In that paper Moriarty makes Isabel the mother of Alice (p.48). I think
Moriarty is right in his second corrective paper in thinking Maud to be the
mother of Alice (p.294).
Robert was son of William (d.1162/66) and Hawise ? de Guerres (d.after
1219). William was the son of Robert fitz Walter (d.about 1128). Debate has
centred on whether his father Walter was Walter fitz Other (Windsor) or
Walter the Deacon (otherwise known as Walter fitz Tedric). Moriarty opts
for the second alternative and then in the course of an later extended note
of correction he opts for the first alternative. Moriarty, however, leaves
open the real possibility of Robert fitz Walter's father being Walter the
Deacon (the position he first espoused). Keats-Rohan *Domesday People*
I:454 says that Walter the Deacon was brother and heir of Tedric
(Theoderic) in the lands in Essex which became known as the barony of
Little Easton and that Robert fitz Walter (aka de Windsor) was Walter's
son. Moriarty and Keats-Rohan both agree that Walter was heir of his
brother Tedric, but Keats-Rohan does not mention Walter and Tedric being
sons of an earlier Tedric. Moriarty (2nd paper) and Keats-Rohan both rely
on the work of L Landon "The Barony of Little Easton and the Family of
Hastings" in *Trans. Essex Arch. Soc.* vol xix. In addition K-R cites B
Dodwell "Charters relating to the Honour of Bacton" in *A Medieval
Miscellany for Doris Mary Stenton* eds. P M Barnes & C F Slade, Pipe Roll
Society NS 36 for 1960 (London, 1962) pp.147-165.
The problem of which Walter to give as father of Robert fitz Walter hinges
on the fact that Robert is the successor of Walter the Deacon. It is quite
odd that Walter's putative son-in-law would succeed him when he (Walter the
Deacon) already had sons to do so. It is this feature which would seem to
point overwhelmingly to Robert being Walter's eldest son and not his
son-in-law. This point is obscured to modern eyes by Robert being sometimes
known as Robert de Windsor (the toponym used by his putative wife's family).
It is likely that Robert fitz Walter married a dau. of Walter fitz Other
according to Moriarty and both he and K-R note that Robert fitz Walter's
sister, Edith married Maurice de Windsor, brother-in-law of William de
Hastings. K-R has this as a second marriage and her first was to Ralph the
steward of St Edmunds.
Why the names 'Windsor' and 'Hastings' were used by members of Robert's
family is something of a mystery. The Fitz Other (or Windsor) family linked
Robert's family and that of Hastings and the adoption of such surnames was
a very fluid matter at this stage of surname development.
The first Moriarty paper is "The Origins of the Hastings" in NEHG Register
96 (1942) pp.36-48. Part II of this paper (pp.46-48) is entitled "the
Barons of Little Eston of the Family of Hastings". The second paper is
"Hastings, Barons of Little Eston, Co. Essex, England" in NEHG Register 101
(Oct. 1947) pp.291-295.
The resulting picture would seem to be:
Tedric
|
________________|________________
Walter fitz Other Walter the Deacon Tedric
| |
| |
______|______________ ___________|_____________________________
N oo Maurice N oo Robert f W Walter Alexander Edith oo Maurice
William de Windsor | Mascherel de Waham de
de Hastings | Windsor
|
William f R oo Hawise de oo Gilbert de Pinkeny
| de Guerres
|
|
Robert de Hastings oo Maud de Flamville
|
|
Alice, heir
Lloyd555
"Beatrice or Gwladys daughter of Rhiwallon ap Cynfyn ap Gwerystan" but I am not
sure where this came from or whether it is reliable.
Lloyd Jones
Richard Borthwick
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Prosopography of Persons occurring in English Documents, 1066-1166* (The
Boydell Press: Woodbridge, 1999) I:455]
The affiliation you report for Beatrice is not one I have seen, but her
daughter-in-law, Nest, was a granddau. of Rhiwallon ap Cynfyn. [CP VII:200,
X:11, XI: Appendix D, 105-121; VCH Berks 3:505; J E Lloyd *A history of
Wales from the Earliest Times to the Edwardian Conquest* (London, 3rd ed
1939) 769]
Alan B. Wilson
rg...@cyllene.uwa.edu.au (Richard Borthwick) wrote:
[snip]
>
> Robert was son of William (d.1162/66) and Hawise ? de Guerres (d.after
> 1219). William was the son of Robert fitz Walter (d.about 1128). Debate has
> centred on whether his father Walter was Walter fitz Other (Windsor) or
> Walter the Deacon (otherwise known as Walter fitz Tedric). Moriarty opts
> for the second alternative and then in the course of an later extended note
> of correction he opts for the first alternative. Moriarty, however, leaves
> open the real possibility of Robert fitz Walter's father being Walter the
> Deacon (the position he first espoused). Keats-Rohan *Domesday People*
> I:454 says that Walter the Deacon was brother and heir of Tedric
> (Theoderic) in the lands in Essex which became known as the barony of
> Little Easton and that Robert fitz Walter (aka de Windsor) was Walter's
> son. Moriarty and Keats-Rohan both agree that Walter was heir of his
> brother Tedric, but Keats-Rohan does not mention Walter and Tedric being
> sons of an earlier Tedric. Moriarty (2nd paper) and Keats-Rohan both rely
> on the work of L Landon "The Barony of Little Easton and the Family of
> Hastings" in *Trans. Essex Arch. Soc.* vol xix. In addition K-R cites B
> Dodwell "Charters relating to the Honour of Bacton" in *A Medieval
> Miscellany for Doris Mary Stenton* eds. P M Barnes & C F Slade, Pipe Roll
> Society NS 36 for 1960 (London, 1962) pp.147-165.
>
Curiously Sanders (p. 130, n. 3) also cites Landon as authority for
the assertion that the Robert fitz Walter who succeeded to Little Easton
was the son of Robert fitz Other.
> The problem of which Walter to give as father of Robert fitz Walter hinges
> on the fact that Robert is the successor of Walter the Deacon. It is quite
> odd that Walter's putative son-in-law would succeed him when he (Walter the
> Deacon) already had sons to do so. It is this feature which would seem to
> point overwhelmingly to Robert being Walter's eldest son and not his
> son-in-law. This point is obscured to modern eyes by Robert being sometimes
> known as Robert de Windsor (the toponym used by his putative wife's family).
>
I have become increasingly uncertain about which Walter was father of
the Robert who succeeded to Little Easton. Here are a few notes from
Moriarty which illustrate my problem:
Name: Robert Lord of Little Easton[353, p. 130],[455, p. 589],[544],[545,
p. 454],
---------------------------------------------
Death: ca 1128[353, p. 130 +],[544, +]
Father: Walter the Deacon
Misc. Notes
Moriarty[544, p. 294] says "Dr. Round (The Ancestor, vol. II, pp. 92,
98) concludes that he [Robert] was a younger son of Walter fitz Other, the
Castellan of Windsor, and this is in all probability correct, as his
barony of Little Eston, like the fee of his elder brother William fitz
Walter de Windsor, was held by service of "castle guard" at Windsor (cf.
Round in Archaeol. Journal, 1902)."
Moriarty[544, p. 294] suggests Robert may have married a daughter of
Walter, the deacon in Wix (Essex).
However on the preceding page[544, p. 293], citing deeds relating to
Wix Priory, Moriarty says "William fitz Robert, with consent of Hawise,
his wife, and of Robert, their son and heir, confirmed the above gift
which Alexander, his uncle, had made to Wix." Now if Alexander was the
uncle of William fitz Robert, then Robert was the brother of Alexander,
and both were sons of Walter the Deacon--not Walter fitz Other.
[In his earlier essay[543, p. 47] Moriarty said "There was still
another brother, the eldest apparently, named Robert, whose son William
confirmed to Wix the gifts of Walter Mascherel and Alexander his brother,
'my uncles' (Cart. Ant. L., 2, 31, 10)."]
Sources
353. Sanders, I. J., English Baronies: a study of their origin and
descent, 1086-1327, Oxford: The Clarendon Press, 1960.
455. Burke, Sir Bernard, Dormant, Abeyant, Forfeited, and Extinct Peerages
of the British Empire, Baltimore, MD: Genealogical Publishing Co., 1996.
Reprinted from edition originally published in London by Burke's Peerage, 1883.
543. Moriarty, G. Andrews, "The origin of the Hastings," NEHGR, xcvi, Jan
1942, 36-48.
544. Moriarty, G. Andrews, "Hastings, barons of Little Eston, C. Essex,
England," NEHGR, ci, Oct 1947, 291-295.
545. Keats-Rohan, K. S. B., Domesday people: a prosopography of persons
occurring in English documents, 1066-1166, Woodbridge, Suffolk: Boydell
Press, 1999.
If Alexander was the uncle of William fitz Robert, Lord of Little
Easton, whose wife was Hawise, then it would seem that his father, Robert,
was indeed the son of Walter the Deacon--not Walter fitz Other.
[snip]
--
Alan B. Wilson
abwi...@uclink4.berkeley.edu