Complete Peerage Addition: Parentage of Elizabeth Holand, wife of Sir Roger Fiennes
Douglas Richardson
Complete Peerage 4 (1916): 8-9 (sub Dacre) includes a good account of
the history of Joan Dacre, suo jure Lady Dacre, and her husband, Sir
Richard Fiennes (died 1483). Sir Richard's parents are identified by
the editor of Complete Peerage as "Sir Roger Fiennes, of
Hurstmonceaux, Sussex, by Elizabeth, sister of Sir John Holland, of
Northants."
As we can see, Elizabeth (Holand) Fiennes's parentage is not
specifically stated, only that she was sister of Sir John Holand, of
Northamptonshire. That Elizabeth was a Holand is proven by several
records, the first being a Fynes pedigree in the published Visitation
of Sussex which states:
"Sr Roger Fynes knt. = Elizabeth d. of…. Holland of com. Northampton."
[Reference: T. Benolte et al., Vis. of Sussex 1530, 1633–4 (H.S.P. 53)
(1905): 11–12].
Confirmation of Elizabeth Fiennes' maiden name is likewise provided by
Sussex Arch. Colls. 4 (1851): 148–152, which reports that Elizabeth
Holand's arms (azure semée of fleur-de-lis) "existed in painted glass
in the east window of the Chapel of the Castle."
Additional concrete evidence of Elizabeth's maiden name is provided by
an interesting record found on the helpful A2A online catalogue
(http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp). The following item is taken
from Centre for Kentish Studies: Barrett-Lennard Manuscripts,
Catalogue Ref. U1384/E5:
ESTATE PAPERS
Receipts and acquittances, etc.
FILE - Agreement - ref. U1384/E5 - date: 1431
Dame Elizabeth Fiennes, formerly Elizabeth Holland [the indenture
mentioned hangings embroidered with the arms of Fiennes and Holland],
married Sir Roger Fiennes of Hurstmonceaux, son of Sir William Fiennes
of Hurstmonceaux who died in 1402 and brother of Sir James Fiennes,
later Lord Say and Sele. Their son, Sir Richard, became Lord Dacre in
1458. Presumably the hangings etc. were being moved from a house in
London to the house at Hurstmonceaux." END OF ITEM.
So who were Elizabeth's parents? Extensive research into this matter
indicates that Elizabeth (Holand) Fiennes and her brother, Sir John
Holand (four times sheriff of Northamptonshire) were children of an
earlier Sir John Holand (living 1406), of Thorpe Waterville,
Northamptonshire, by his 2nd wife, Margaret. The senior Sir John
Holand in turn was the younger son and heir male of Robert de Holand,
Knt. (died 1373), 2nd Lord Holand, also of Thorpe Waterville,
Northampton. Further particulars regarding Elizabeth (Holand)
Fiennes' parents are provided below.
For informational purposes, the following is a list of the colonial
immigrants who descend from Elizabeth (Holand) Fiennes:
l. Essex Beville.
2. Mary Launce.
3. Thomas Lunsford.
4. Herbert Pelham.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
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HOLAND FAMILY of Thorpe Waterville, Northamptonshire
JOHN HOLAND, Knt., of Thorpe Waterville and Achurch (both in Thorpe
Achurch), Chelveston and Caldecote, Northamptonshire, and Dalbury
Lees, Derbyshire, and Breightmet (in Bolton-le-Moors) and Torrisholme,
Lancashire, younger son but heir male, born about 1347-49 (aged 24 or
26 at his father's death). He was a legatee in the 1372 will of his
father. He married (1st) in or before 1373 (date of settlement)
ELIZABETH GREENE, daughter and co-heiress of Nicholas Greene, of
Exton, Rutland, steward of Higham Ferrers and Glatton, by Joan,
daughter and co-heiress of John de Brus. They had no issue. He
married (2nd) MARGARET _____. They had one son, John, Knt., and two
daughters, Elizabeth and Margaret (wife of John Beauchamp, Knt.). He
presented to the church of Achurch in 1379, 1385, 1391, 1394, and
1400. In 1393 he was ordered to arrest and deliver to the sheriff of
Derby Robert de Bounsall of Brunalston. He and his wife, Margaret,
were granted a license for an oratory within their manor of Thorpe
Waterville and to choose their confessors 10 April 1405. SIR JOHN
HOLAND was presumably living in 1406. His date of death is unknown.
References:
J. Bridges, Hist. & Antiq. of Northamptonshire 2 (1791): 364–365.
A.W. Gibbons, Early Lincoln Wills 1280–1547 (1888): 52–53.
Genealogist n.s. 13 (1896): 34. G. Wrottesley, Staffordshire Suits:
Plea Rolls (Colls. Hist. Staffs. n.s. 3) (1900): 163, 204 [references
to Sir John Holand's son and heir, Sir John Holand (living 1443, died
testate before 1451), who was survived by a wife, Ellen (died testate
c.1451); see also Desc. Cat. of Ancient Deeds 3 (1900): 130]. Greene
Fam. in England & America (1901): Greene Pedigree I following 147. W.
Farrer, Final Concords of Lancaster 3 (Lancs. & Cheshire Rec. Soc. 50)
(1905): 15, 67. C.P.R. 1391–1396 (1905): 237. VCH Lancaster 4
(1911): 92–93; 5 (1911): 266–267; 8 (1914): 68, 87–88 (both omit this
generation). Feudal Aids 6 (1920): 592 (shows manor of Dalbury Lees
was held in 1330 by "heirs" of Robert de Holand, 1st Lord Holand,
afterwards held in 1401–2 by John Holand, Knt., and, in 1431, by John
Holand, Knt., of Thorpe Waterville, presumably passing by male tail).
VCH Northampton 3 (1930): 136–137 (confuses this John Holand and his
son, Sir John Holand, with their cousins, also John Holand, father and
son, who were Earls of Huntingdon and Dukes of Exeter). VCH Rutland 2
(1935): 128–129. VCH Northampton 4 (1937): 8 (correctly identifies
John Holand as heir male to his father, Robert Holand, 2nd Lord
Holand). R. Somerville, Hist. of the Duchy of Lancaster 1 (1953):
371, 385.
Douglas Richardson
Going through the helpful online A2A catalogue last night
(http://www.a2a.org.uk/about/index.asp), I located an additional
document relating to Elizabeth (Holand) Fiennes' father, the senior
Sir John Holand (living 1406), and also one which pertains to her
brother, the younger Sir John Holand (died 1447/51). Both items are
taken from the papers of the Gell family of Hopton, which are housed
at the Derbyshire Record Office. Elizabeth (Holand) Fiennes' father
and brother are often confused in print with their contemporary
cousins of the same name, Sir John Holand, Duke of Exeter (beheaded
1400), and his son, Sir John Holand, Duke of Exeter (died 1447).
The first document below indicates that the senior Sir John Holand was
still living in 1409, which is a bit later than I previously had for
him. He appears to have owned land at Wirksworth, Derbyshire, which
manor I believe was owned by his father, Robert de Holand, Knt., 1st
Lord Holand, and also by his grandfather, Robert de Holand, Knt., 1st
Lord Holand.
The second document below identifies the residence of the younger Sir
John Holand as Thorpe Waterville, Northamptonshire. This is also
where his father, the senior Sir John Holand, resided. This place had
a castle and was acquired originally by Robert de Holand, Knt., 1st
Lord Holand. Robert de Holand, Knt., 2nd Lord Holand, was living at
Thorpe Waterville at the time he wrote his will.
It seems evident that Elizabeth (Holand) Fiennes' brother, the younger
Sir John Holand (died testate 1447/1451) and his wife, Ellen (died
testate c. 1451), left surviving female issue. This can be deduced
from two facts. First, the family of Elizabeth (Holand) Fiennes never
claimed that she was an heiress, which would have been the case if Sir
John and his wife had died childless. Second, on Sir John Holand's
death, all properties settled on male issue reverted to his cousin,
Henry Holand, Duke of Exeter, including the castle of Thorpe
Waterville. That means that Sir John Holand and his wife, Ellen, can
only have had female issue. To date, I've been able unable to locate
the wills for either Sir John Holand, or his wife, Ellen, nor have
been able to trace their descendants. Presumably several newsgroup
posters unknowingly have this couple in their ancestry.
Ellen, wife of the younger Sir John Holand, was possibly a member of
the Gresley family. In 1439 John Grylley [Gresley], Thomas Grylley
[Gresley], and William Aldwyncle presented to the church of Thorpe
Waterville, Northamptonshire "rat. feoff. per John Holand" [Reference:
John Bridges, History & Antiq. of Northampton, 2 (1791): 365]. Also,
Ellen's executors are known to have included John Grysley, armiger
[Reference: William Salt Arch. Society, n.s., 3 (1900): pg. 204]. If
these Gresley men are members of the Gresley family of Drakelow, they
would be near kin to Alice Langford (wife of John Stradling and Sir
Richard Pole), whose maternal grandmother was a Gresley of Drakelow.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
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COPY OF DOCUMENTS FROM A2A CATALOGUE
Derbyshire Record Office: Gell family of Hopton [D258/26/5/12 - date:
1409
Grant by William de Stepull of Irton to William Wythehull, rector of
Kersington and William Assheburne de Wyrkesworth, of a messuage etc in
Wyrkesworth, at the end del Dale, between the way to Grenehull on the
east and the tenement of William de Bradbury on the west, the way
above le Dale on the south and a tenement of Roger le Marschal on the
north, with 3 acres of arable, viz 1 acre between Bradstonweie and the
land of Sir John Holand, ½ acre upon Ibulsty between the lands of
William de Bradbury and of Thomas de Cromford, ½ acre upon Cokforlong
between the lands of William de Bradbury and of Thomas de Cromford, ½
acre upon Hongurhull between the lands of Sir John Holand on both
sides
- - - - - - - - -
Derbyshire Record Office: Gell family of Hopton [D258/36/9 - D258/72]
Gell of Hopton Hall
Catalogue Ref. D258
Creator(s):
Gell family of Hopton, Derbyshire
Various
FILE [no title] - ref. D258/40/33/2 - date: 1437
[from Scope and Content] Lease by John Holand of Thorp
Watirvile, Kt, to Richard Blakwall of Midilton, husbandman, Joan his
wife and John Blakwall their son, of 2 messuages, 4 gardens, one toft
and 50 acres of land viz 1 messuage between a messuage of John Higot
of Asshlehey and a garden of William Spenser of Asshlehei and 1
messuage between a garden and a toft formerly held by William Wither,
for their lives at 14s p.a
royala...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson) wrote in message news:<5cf47a19.0404...@posting.google.com>...
> Dear Everyone ~
>
> Complete Peerage 4 (1916): 8-9 (sub Dacre) includes a good account of
> the history of Joan Dacre, suo jure Lady Dacre, and her husband, Sir
> Richard Fiennes (died 1483). Sir Richard's parents are identified by
> the editor of Complete Peerage as "Sir Roger Fiennes, of
> Hurstmonceaux, Sussex, by Elizabeth, sister of Sir John Holland, of
> Northants."
>
> As we can see, Elizabeth (Holand) Fiennes's parentage is not
> specifically stated, only that she was sister of Sir John Holand, of
> Northamptonshire. That Elizabeth was a Holand is proven by several
> records, the first being a Fynes pedigree in the published Visitation
> of Sussex which states:
>
> "Sr Roger Fynes knt. = Elizabeth d. of?. Holland of com. Northampton."
> [Reference: T. Benolte et al., Vis. of Sussex 1530, 1633?4 (H.S.P. 53)
> (1905): 11-12].
>
> Confirmation of Elizabeth Fiennes' maiden name is likewise provided by
> Sussex Arch. Colls. 4 (1851): 148-152, which reports that Elizabeth
> J. Bridges, Hist. & Antiq. of Northamptonshire 2 (1791): 364-365.
> A.W. Gibbons, Early Lincoln Wills 1280-1547 (1888): 52-53.
> Genealogist n.s. 13 (1896): 34. G. Wrottesley, Staffordshire Suits:
> Plea Rolls (Colls. Hist. Staffs. n.s. 3) (1900): 163, 204 [references
> to Sir John Holand's son and heir, Sir John Holand (living 1443, died
> testate before 1451), who was survived by a wife, Ellen (died testate
> c.1451); see also Desc. Cat. of Ancient Deeds 3 (1900): 130]. Greene
> Fam. in England & America (1901): Greene Pedigree I following 147. W.
> Farrer, Final Concords of Lancaster 3 (Lancs. & Cheshire Rec. Soc. 50)
> (1905): 15, 67. C.P.R. 1391-1396 (1905): 237. VCH Lancaster 4
> (1911): 92-93; 5 (1911): 266-267; 8 (1914): 68, 87-88 (both omit this
> generation). Feudal Aids 6 (1920): 592 (shows manor of Dalbury Lees
> was held in 1330 by "heirs" of Robert de Holand, 1st Lord Holand,
> afterwards held in 1401-2 by John Holand, Knt., and, in 1431, by John
> Holand, Knt., of Thorpe Waterville, presumably passing by male tail).
> VCH Northampton 3 (1930): 136-137 (confuses this John Holand and his
> son, Sir John Holand, with their cousins, also John Holand, father and
> son, who were Earls of Huntingdon and Dukes of Exeter). VCH Rutland 2
> (1935): 128-129. VCH Northampton 4 (1937): 8 (correctly identifies
John Higgins
for any doubleposting]
This is interesting new information on these elusive Holands of Thorp
Waterville, which the archives show you've been pursuing since at
least 1999. The connection to the Lords Holand is useful. In a 2002
post, Leo van de Pas cited a (secondary) source from 1908 whcih made
the same connection, but presumably with less detail than you've
located.
In a related matter, your previous posts have raised the possibility
that Elizabeth (Holand) Fiennes' grandmother, also named Elizabeth,
the wife of Robert, 2nd Lord Holand, was the bastard sister of
Philippa, the queen of Edward III. The hypothesis was based on three
apparently unrelated pieces of information:
1) The surname of Robert's wife was not indicated in CP - surprising
for someone of her (or his) rank.
2) A reference to Philippa's sister gave her the surname Holand -
which was more likely based on marriage than on place of origin.
3) Per CP, Queen Philippa had shown an interest in the affairs of
Robert and his mother after his father died - possibly indicating a
relationship between Philippa and Robert.
Have you reached any further conclusion on this possibility, or does
the identification of Elizabeth, wife of Robert 2nd Lord Holand, as a
bastard sister of Philippa still remain simply a conjecture?
royala...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson) wrote in message news:<5cf47a19.0404...@posting.google.com>...
> Dear Everyone ~
>
> Complete Peerage 4 (1916): 8-9 (sub Dacre) includes a good account of
> the history of Joan Dacre, suo jure Lady Dacre, and her husband, Sir
> Richard Fiennes (died 1483). Sir Richard's parents are identified by
> the editor of Complete Peerage as "Sir Roger Fiennes, of
> Hurstmonceaux, Sussex, by Elizabeth, sister of Sir John Holland, of
> Northants."
>
> As we can see, Elizabeth (Holand) Fiennes's parentage is not
> specifically stated, only that she was sister of Sir John Holand, of
> Northamptonshire. That Elizabeth was a Holand is proven by several
> records, the first being a Fynes pedigree in the published Visitation
> of Sussex which states:
>
> "Sr Roger Fynes knt. = Elizabeth d. of?. Holland of com. Northampton."
> [Reference: T. Benolte et al., Vis. of Sussex 1530, 1633?4 (H.S.P. 53)
> (1905): 11?12].
>
> Confirmation of Elizabeth Fiennes' maiden name is likewise provided by
> Sussex Arch. Colls. 4 (1851): 148?152, which reports that Elizabeth
> J. Bridges, Hist. & Antiq. of Northamptonshire 2 (1791): 364?365.
> A.W. Gibbons, Early Lincoln Wills 1280?1547 (1888): 52?53.
> Genealogist n.s. 13 (1896): 34. G. Wrottesley, Staffordshire Suits:
> Plea Rolls (Colls. Hist. Staffs. n.s. 3) (1900): 163, 204 [references
> to Sir John Holand's son and heir, Sir John Holand (living 1443, died
> testate before 1451), who was survived by a wife, Ellen (died testate
> c.1451); see also Desc. Cat. of Ancient Deeds 3 (1900): 130]. Greene
> Fam. in England & America (1901): Greene Pedigree I following 147. W.
> Farrer, Final Concords of Lancaster 3 (Lancs. & Cheshire Rec. Soc. 50)
> (1905): 15, 67. C.P.R. 1391?1396 (1905): 237. VCH Lancaster 4
> (1911): 92?93; 5 (1911): 266?267; 8 (1914): 68, 87?88 (both omit this
> generation). Feudal Aids 6 (1920): 592 (shows manor of Dalbury Lees
> was held in 1330 by "heirs" of Robert de Holand, 1st Lord Holand,
> afterwards held in 1401?2 by John Holand, Knt., and, in 1431, by John
> Holand, Knt., of Thorpe Waterville, presumably passing by male tail).
> VCH Northampton 3 (1930): 136?137 (confuses this John Holand and his
> son, Sir John Holand, with their cousins, also John Holand, father and
> son, who were Earls of Huntingdon and Dukes of Exeter). VCH Rutland 2
> (1935): 128?129. VCH Northampton 4 (1937): 8 (correctly identifies
Douglas Richardson
Thank you for your good post.
Below please find a copy of an earlier post dated December 2003 in
which I present another piece of evidence which provides support for
the hypothesis that Elizabeth, wife of Robert Holand, 2nd Lord Holand,
is the bastard sister of Queen Philippe of Hainault, wife of King
Edward III of England.
I found a record in which Ralph Lovel, a priest, was stated to be "of
the stock" of King Henry IV of England. I know of no close kinship
between the two men, unless Ralph Lovel's great-grandmother, Elizabeth
de Holand, is the bastard sister of Queen Philippe of Hainault named
in a Patent Rolls item dated 1367 [see C.P.R. 1367–1370 (1913): 6].
Then the two men would be closely related. I've charted the potential
kinship below.
William Count of Hainault
__________________/______________
/ /
Philippe of Hainault Elizabeth
=King Edward III of England = Robert de Holand, 2nd Lord Holand
/ /
John of Gaunt Robert de Holand
Duke of Aquitaine & Lancaster = Alice de Lisle
/ /
King Henry IV of England Maud Holand
= John Lovel, 5th Lord Lovel
/
Ralph Lovel, clerk
As far as my hypothesis is concerned, I still feel that the evidence
is not yet sufficient to warrant a conclusion that Elizabeth, wife of
Robert de Holand, was the bastard sister of Queen Philippe. However,
the accumulation of evidence seems going in that direction. I've
found this is the usual pattern when a hypothesis is correct.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
- - - - - -
COPY OF EARLIER POST:
From: royala...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson)
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Subject: Elizabeth de Holand, bastard sister of Queen Philippe of
Hainault
Date: 17 Dec 2003 12:01:07 -0800
Dear Newsgroup ~
Last year I posted on a hitherto unnoticed bastard sister of Queen
Philippe of Hainault named Elizabeth de Holand (see copy of my earlier
post below). I theorized that Queen Philippe's sister may well be
Elizabeth, wife of Robert de Holand, Knt., 2nd Lord Holand, of Thorpe
Waterville, co. Northampton.
In the intervening time, I've since located a piece of evidence which
suggests that the proposed identification of Elizabeth de Holand may
be correct. Papal Registers: Letters 6 (1904): 248 includes the
abstract of a document in which Ralph Lovel, clerk, is stated to be
"of the stock" of King Henry IV of England. The words "of the stock"
is medieval phraseology applied to people of near kinship to a king.
Examining Ralph Lovel's ancestry, I find that he was a great-grandson
of Elizabeth, wife of Robert de Holand, 2nd Lord Holand. If Elizabeth
was the Queen Philippe's sister, it would definitely make her
descendant, Ralph Lovel, a near kinsman to King Henry IV of England.
King Henry IV was a grandson of Queen Philippe. Ralph Lovell has no
other known near connections to King Henry IV. This matter deserves
further study.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
- - - - - - - - - - -
>From: royala...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson)
>Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
>Subject: Elizabeth de Holand, bastard sister of Queen Philippe of
Hainault
>Date: 12 Oct 2002 17:03:36 -0700
>
>Dear Newsgroup ~
>
>Bert Kamp's recent post on the birth order of Queen Philippe of
>Hainault (wife of King Edward III) and her sisters brought to mind
>another question related to the comital Hainault family.
>
>In the course of my research for the forthcoming Plantagenet Ancestry
>book, I've encountered a grant dated 1367 whereby King Edward III of
>England, at the instance of his wife, Philippe, granted to her
> bastard sister, Elizabeth de Holand, twenty pounds of money annually at the >Exchequer [Reference: Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1367-1370 (published 1913), >pg.]. To my knowledge, this sister of Queen Philippe is unknown in Hainault >records and no one has attempted to identity her in English records either.
>
>Inasmuch as Queen Philippe's father, William, was Count of Hainault
>and Holand, Brice Clagett has suggested to me privately the
>possibility that Elizabeth de Holand obtained her surname from the
>locality of Holand on the Continent. However, it is also possible
>that she is identical with Elizabeth, wife of Robert de Holand, Knt.,
>2nd Lord Holand, of Thorpe Waterville, co. Northampton. Elizabeth,
>wife of Lord Holand, was married before 1343 and was evidently living
>at the time King Edward III made the grant to his wife's bastard
>sister. It is rather unusual that Lord Holand's wife's surname is
>not known, as in the normal scheme of things, his wife should have
>derived from one of England's better families and would be well
documented in >the records. If Lord Holand's wife was foreign born,
however, it would >explain her failure to appear as a daughter among
the records of
>contemporary families of baronial rank.
>
>Robert de Holand, 2nd Lord Holand, and his wife, Elizabeth, had four
>identifiable sons, Robert, Thomas, Gilbert (clerk), and John, as well
>as one probable daughter, Margaret, wife of Marmaduke de Lumley. My
>research shows that on Marmaduke de Lumley's death, Queen Philippe
>acquired the marriage of his son and heir. If Marmaduke de Lumley's
>wife, Margaret, was Queen Philippe's niece, then it would explain
>Queen Philippe's interest in the Lumley family.
>
>Perhaps Bert could comment on the likelihood that Queen Philippe's
>bastard sister was known as "de Holand" due to her father being Count
>of Hainault and Holand. Also, I'm aware that Queen Philippe had
>several illegitimate brothers which appear in Hainault records.
>Perhaps Bert could list them for us. Several American immigrants
>descend from Elizabeth, wife of Lord Holand. So, if this matter
>could be resolved, it might open up much new ancestry for many people
>here on the newsgroup.
>
>
>Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
jthi...@yahoo.com (John Higgins) wrote in message news:<54fb60f6.04043...@posting.google.com>...