Hildegarde to Visigoths--dubious, please debunk

[Matt A]

This lineage is in highly unlikely given I lifted it from Wikipedia
(none of whose sources are available online), but I'm wondering if
someone can briefly explain where it fails. What is the weakest link?

Theodemir = Erelieva
Amalafrida
Amalaberga = Hermanfrid
Rodelinda = Audoin
(unnamed?) brother of Albion, King of the Lombards
Gisulf I of Friuli
Gisulf II of Friuli
(daughter) = a (nameless?) King of Bavaria
Fara of Bavaria = Theodo IV
Theodo V = Regintrude
(daughter) = Gotfried of Allemania
Huoching
Nebi
Emma = Gerold of Vinzgau
Hildegarde = Charlemagne

I have also heard it suggested (I forget where) that Fara may descend
from Waldrada and, through the Gepids, to the first Gepid king
"traditionally" (according to Settipani) a son-in-law of Attila the
Hun.

Is there anything to this? Where does the ancestry of Theodo V become
myth?

Thanks,

Matt Ahlgren

[Wjhonson]

One of the sources available online

http://archive.org/stream/cu31924027767593#page/n5/mode/2up

-----Original Message-----
From: Matt A <starwa...@gmail.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tue, May 15, 2012 6:00 pm
Subject: Hildegarde to Visigoths--dubious, please debunk


This lineage is in highly unlikely given I lifted it from Wikipedia

none of whose sources are available online), but I'm wondering if

omeone can briefly explain where it fails. What is the weakest link?
Theodemir = Erelieva

malafrida
malaberga = Hermanfrid
odelinda = Audoin

unnamed?) brother of Albion, King of the Lombards

isulf I of Friuli
isulf II of Friuli

daughter) = a (nameless?) King of Bavaria

ara of Bavaria = Theodo IV

heodo V = Regintrude
daughter) = Gotfried of Allemania
uoching
ebi
mma = Gerold of Vinzgau

ildegarde = Charlemagne
I have also heard it suggested (I forget where) that Fara may descend

rom Waldrada and, through the Gepids, to the first Gepid king
traditionally" (according to Settipani) a son-in-law of Attila the

un.
Is there anything to this? Where does the ancestry of Theodo V become

yth?
Thanks,
Matt Ahlgren

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[J Cook]

I think you will have trouble finding a contemporary source stating
that Theodo's daughter was the mother of Huoching, even if you believe
that Huoching was a son of this Gottfried. (as is stated by Thegan
more than a hundred years later)

[Stewart Baldwin]

The ancestry of Hildegarde can be regarded as solidly documented only back to her grandfather Nebi. The next two generations before that (Huoching and Gottfried) are based on a reasonably good ninth century source, and are probably also OK, but there are significant concerns about those two generations that would require a detailed discussion. There is no direct evidence regarding Gottfried's wife or wives. The suggestion that he was married to a daughter of duke Theodo (II not V) is based on a string of conjectures:

1. It has been conjectured that duke Odilo of Bavaria was a son of Gottfried. This conjecture has been accepted by many scholars, and I am inclined to regard it as probably true, but the evidence is not that strong.

2. Assuming that the first conjecture is correct, it has been conjectured on top of that that Odilo's mother was an Agilolfing, in order to explain his possession of the duchy of Bavaria and to explain the Agilolfing name that he gave to his son Thassilo.

3. Assuming that the second conjecture is correct, it has been conjectured on top of that that Gottfried's wife was a daughter of Theodo II, Agilolfing duke of Bavaria. Based on the same string of guesses, Settipani has conjectured that Gottfried's wife was a sister of Theodo rather than his daughter. Although both conjectures are based on very slender evidence, Settipani's version is chronologically more plausible.

To accept the above line, you would have to accept all of the above string of conjectures, and accept in addition that Huoching and Odilo had the same mother, when we have no evidence whether or not Gottfried was married more than once.

The part above Gottfried is a mess. I'm not sure why Theodo I and Theodo II have been given the numbers IV and V. There is no evidence regarding the parentage of either Theodo I or Theodo II. Fara was a male, not a female. His alleged connection to the Theodos is a conjecture based entirely on the fact that the source mentioning him calls him an Agilolfing.

Stewart Baldwin