Richard Burgh, Egidia Lacy
ADRIANC...@aol.com
I follow the pedigree given in _A History of Medieval Ireland_ by Edmund
Curtis, which does not seem to conflict with the problem you quote from the
Book of Lecan, and also agrees to CP Vol 12 p 171 as far as that goes:
Wm de Burgo (de Burgh) (-1206) m d of Donal More O'Briwn
]
Rd (I) Ld of Connacht (-1242) m Egidia de Lacy
]
A) Rd (II) (dsp 1248)
B) Walter Earl of Ulster etc (-1271)
C) William Oge (-1270) and left Wm Liath ancestor of Lords Clanrickard
regards,
Adrian
I wrote:
>The mother of your Richard de Burgh is probably an unnamed
> >daughter (Mor?) of Donal More O'Brien.
>
Stewart Baldwin replied:
> Good evidence for this is lacking, and there is good reason to doubt
> this claim, as has been discussed in this forum before. The relevant
> primary source (from the Book of Lecan) is that Domnall Mor had a
> daughter (unnamed) who was the mother of Richard, son of William, from
> whom are descended the Clann Ricaird. The problem is that the usual
> reconstruction of the de Burgh genealogy (e.g., the tables in the New
> History of Ireland) make this Richard (i.e., the one who was ancestor
> of Clann Ricaird) a same-named brother Richard de Burgh, lord of
> Ulster (quite likely by a different mother).
>
> Thus, there appears to be no good evidence that the Richard de Burgh,
> lord of Ulster, was a grandson of Domnall Mor. (Unfortunately, no
> documentation is supplied for the tables in the New History of
> Ireland, making it hard to follow up, but a reexamination of the early
> de Burghs using primary evidence would be interesting.)
>
> Stewart Baldwin
>
Stewart Baldwin
>I follow the pedigree given in _A History of Medieval Ireland_ by Edmund
>Curtis, which does not seem to conflict with the problem you quote from the
>Book of Lecan, and also agrees to CP Vol 12 p 171 as far as that goes:
>
>Wm de Burgo (de Burgh) (-1206) m d of Donal More O'Briwn
>]
>Rd (I) Ld of Connacht (-1242) m Egidia de Lacy
>]
>A) Rd (II) (dsp 1248)
>B) Walter Earl of Ulster etc (-1271)
>C) William Oge (-1270) and left Wm Liath ancestor of Lords Clanrickard
The problem is that this does not agree with the best Irish
genealogical sources, which show William with two sons named Richard,
the famous one who died in 1243 and another Richard who was ancestor
of the Clanricard branch. This latter Richard is the one apparently
referred to by the Book of Lecan, leaving as uncertain the mother of
the elder Richard (ancestor of Edward IV, among many others). The
table in the New History of Ireland has it the same way, with a dotted
line, and the comment: "The origins of the Clanricard line are ont
absolutely proven, but the descent given is that in the best
genealogical sources and is not contradicted by contemporary sources."
This would indicate that the subject is ripe for more detailed
research in the primary sources, which might overturn this picture,
but that the best evidence at the current time would indicate that the
Richard who was stated in the Book of Lecan to be a grandson of
Domnall Mor was NOT Richard lord of Connacht.
The fact that some earlier secondary sources have it otherwise is
pretty much irrelevant, in my opinion. Many early histories of
Ireland were written without taking proper account of the Irish
sources. Any argument that the Richard who was named as the grandson
of Domnall Mor in the Book of Lecan was the same person as Richard
lord of Connacht needs to be based on arguments from the primary
sources.
It would be nice if clear evidence could be found that Richard lord of
Connacht was a grandson of Domnall Mor, as that would provide a number
of interesting Irish descents that are not available through "Eve" of
Leinster, but it would be jumping to conclusions to suggest that such
a link is probable on the basis of current research.
Stewart Baldwin