King Henry I's bastard William Tracy
Leo
Burke's Peerage 1999 page 2757 tells the same William Tracy died about 1136 and had a daughter Grace who married John de Sudeley, John was 'living 1130'.
Grace and John de Sudeley had (at least) two sons, Ralph and William.
Are there more details available? Who did William Tracy marry? Are there other sources than just Burke's Peerage who continue this line of descent from King Henry I?
With many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
Douglas Richardson
King Henry I's bastard son, William de Tracy, was not the father of
Grace, wife of John de Sudeley. That's an old error in the historical
literature and a good reason why Burke should be used with care.
DR
TJ Booth
(6) WILLIAM de Tracy or Tracey, whose mother is unknown, and who d. soon
after his father, leaving (by an unknown wife) a daughter and heir (l).
(l) Grace, who m. John de Sudeley, of Sudeley Castle and Toddington, co.
Gloucester, 3rd s. of Harold de Ewias, lord of Ewias (co. Hereford) and
Sudeley, s. and h. of Ralph, Earl of Hereford, s. of Dreu, Count of the
French Vexin, by Godgifu, sister of Edward the Confessor. The 1st son, Ralph
de Sudeley, suc. his father at Sudeley; the 2nd son, William of Toddington,
took his mother's name of Tracy or Tracey; hence Ralph de Sudeley confirmed
a gift of his brother William de Tracy to Gloucester Abbey. The direct line
of Tracy of Toddington became extinct on the death of Henry (Tracy), 8th
Viscount Tracy, in 1797; but cadets of this very ancient house may still
exist.
AR Line 222 (revised for 8th edition) has a 10 generation descent from Henry
I. It cites CP above, Keats Rohan Domesday II:743, which cites Pipe Roll 31
Henry I, 79-gl; also Burkes online 'Sudeley lineage of Tracy'
TJ Booth
Chicago IL
DR
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WJho...@aol.com
terry...@sbcglobal.net writes:
> The direct line
> of Tracy of Toddington became extinct on the death of Henry (Tracy), 8th
> Viscount Tracy, in 1797; but cadets of this very ancient house may still
> exist.
>
Blink... blink.
Do "cadet lines" have to be through a male?
Or can a cadet line be said to come through a female?
Prince Charles, Princess Diana and Sarah Ferguson Duchess of York all
descend from the Tracy's.
Matthew Connolly
> In a message dated 8/17/2010 6:39:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
>
> > The direct line
> > of Tracy of Toddington became extinct on the death of Henry (Tracy), 8th
> > Viscount Tracy, in 1797; but cadets of this very ancient house may still
> > exist.
>
> Blink... blink.
> Do "cadet lines" have to be through a male?
> Or can a cadet line be said to come through a female?
>
> Prince Charles, Princess Diana and Sarah Ferguson Duchess of York all
> descend from the Tracy's.
'Cadets' refers to younger sons and their male-line issue, so does not
include descendants of daughters.
On the original post, the ODNB states that John de Sudeley "married an
unidentified sister of Henry de Tracy, lord of Barnstaple", so they
don't even accept that she was called Grace. [Article "Sudeley family
(per. c.1050-1336)" by 'Sudeley', i.e. the present Lord Sudeley.]
RobinPatterson
On Aug 18, 1:39 am, "TJ Booth" <terryjbo...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> See CP xi:105-121, Appendix D "HENRY I'S ILLEGITIMATE CHILDREN":
>
> (6) WILLIAM de Tracy or Tracey, whose mother is unknown, and who d. soon
> after his father, leaving (by an unknown wife) a daughter and heir (l).
>
> (l) Grace, who m. John de Sudeley, ...
.....
> TJ Booth
>
> Chicago IL
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalances...@msn.com>
>
> Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
> To: <gen-medie...@rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 8:16 AM
> Subject: Re: King Henry I's bastard William Tracy
> .....
Douglas Richardson
< Response from DR? Is CP wrong too?
<
Yes, C.P. is wrong.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Matthew Connolly
wrote:
> On the original post, the ODNB states that John de Sudeley "married an
> unidentified sister of Henry de Tracy, lord of Barnstaple", so they
> don't even accept that she was called Grace. [Article "Sudeley family
> (per. c.1050-1336)" by 'Sudeley', i.e. the present Lord Sudeley.]
Incidentally, the ODNB article on the William de Tracy who was one of
the killers of Thomas Becket has been revised since first publication:
the 2004 version stated that he "has been shown to have been the son
of John of Sudeley, and Grace, daughter of William de Tracy, a natural
son of Henry I, whose name he took." [Possibly this refers to Lord
Sudeley's paper in the 1987 'The Sudeleys: Lords of Toddington'
publication, where he stated that conclusion but didn't really show
it.] The revision is dated 2006 and now reads that he "was probably
the son of Turgis de Tracy, a member of a Norman family with strong
connections with Maine". At the end of the list of sources is "N.
Vincent, Becket's Murderers (2004)", which perhaps contained the new
information.
Matthew Connolly
wrote:
> Incidentally, the ODNB article on the William de Tracy who was one of
> the killers of Thomas Becket has been revised since first publication:
> the 2004 version stated that he "has been shown to have been the son
> of John of Sudeley, and Grace, daughter of William de Tracy, a natural
> son of Henry I, whose name he took." [Possibly this refers to Lord
> Sudeley's paper in the 1987 'The Sudeleys: Lords of Toddington'
> publication, where he stated that conclusion but didn't really show
> it.] The revision is dated 2006 and now reads that he "was probably
> the son of Turgis de Tracy, a member of a Norman family with strong
> connections with Maine". At the end of the list of sources is "N.
> Vincent, Becket's Murderers (2004)", which perhaps contained the new
> information.
Available as a limited preview on Google Books, a few pages of the
above Nicholas Vincent's discussion in 'Bischofsmord im
Mittelalter' (2003):
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=btg-_IyygYoC&pg=PA230#v=onepage&q&f=false
starting towards the bottom of p.230, with: "The family of William de
Tracy, the fourth of the murderers, deserves an article to itself." He
also discusses the apparent invention of Grace de Tracy. (The section
on Tracy runs to p.242 but there are six pages witheld.)
Andrew Lancaster
Note pp. 13-15. I think this is just a lecture without full apparatus, but still interesting.