Egypt > Armenia > France > Portugal ?
P.MONIZ
Hi folks.
I heard a Portuguese genealogist saying that the Portuguese kings
(considered the Dukes of Braganza) descend from French dinasties (this we
all know by history!), but he claimed that some experts consider that
this French root descends from Armenian dinasties, and these come from
Egyptian dinasties.
Can this be possible ? Can Portuguese kings descend from Pharaohs ?
Carlos Moreira __o
etpm...@ci.ua.pt -\<, Researching: CROLEDGE family (Yorkshire)
Aveiro, Portugal (_)/(_) John CROLEDGE (Maldon,Essex)
Todd A. Farmerie
In a previous article, etpm...@ci.ua.pt (P.MONIZ) says:
>Hi folks.
>
>I heard a Portuguese genealogist saying that the Portuguese kings
>(considered the Dukes of Braganza) descend from French dinasties (this we
>all know by history!), but he claimed that some experts consider that
>this French root descends from Armenian dinasties, and these come from
>Egyptian dinasties.
>Can this be possible ? Can Portuguese kings descend from Pharaohs ?
>
Can the Portuguese kings descend from the Pharaohs? Yes, with so many
generations in between, anything is possible. Can it be through a
French/Armenian connection? Fat chance.
Todd
Chris Bennett
In article <4rs5lt$l...@madeline.INS.CWRU.Edu>, ta...@po.CWRU.Edu (Todd A.
Farmerie) wrote:
Todd, Todd, Todd, you might at least point Mr/Ms Moniz at the literature!
Dear Sir/Madam --
This topic gets discussed in this newsgroup periodically. There was a
very good recent posting by Stewart Baldwin on June 8 -- it should be in
the archives. Your genealogist is probably referring to the book by
Christian Settipani, "Nos ancetres de l'antiquite" (Paris, 1991), which
puts forward a series of arguments connecting the kings of France through
the Byzantines, the Armenians, the Parthians, the Greeks, the Persians and
the Egyptians. Its well worth the read if you can get it, and the
bibliography is outstanding; just don't take it literally since many of
the arguments are highly conjectural. I regard this subject mostly as a
good source of interesting research topics.
Is there a French/Armenian connection? Probably. Can you get back to the
pharaohs? Not on current knowledge. But I think you can probably go
quite a long way, at least to the Arsacids and maybe to the Achaemenids,
so long as you don't insist on conclusive proof at every step of the way.
Its good clean fun to argue about this stuff, and a break from haughty
Nordic queens!
Chris
Fred Tiedemann Croese
>
> Hi folks.
>
> I heard a Portuguese genealogist saying that the Portuguese kings
> (considered the Dukes of Braganza) descend from French dinasties (this we
> all know by history!), but he claimed that some experts consider that
> this French root descends from Armenian dinasties, and these come from
> Egyptian dinasties.
> Can this be possible ? Can Portuguese kings descend from Pharaohs ?
>
> etpm...@ci.ua.pt -\<, Researching: CROLEDGE family (Yorkshire)
> Aveiro, Portugal (_)/(_) John CROLEDGE (Maldon,Essex)
Dear Carlos,
I did find on the Internet a zip-file with a number of ASCII-files like the
attachment of this message. I
could'nt find the zip-file (it must be somewhere on a floppy), so I send you one
example.
As you can see French kings have Egyptian pharao's as their ancestors. There was
however some comment on the
contents of these files (I found the comments and he zip-file via a Alta Vista
search, but I do'nt remember
the keyword I searched for; it might have been 'Merovingian').
Fred Tiedemann Croese.
PS You might find the link between France and Portugal in my GEDCOM-file you
have downloaded via my home-page.
jms
On Mon, 8 Jul 1996, Chris Bennett wrote:
Greetings,
coming back to another, and somewhat new thread, i am curious to know the
source of this theory.
> > >
> > >I heard a Portuguese genealogist saying that the Portuguese kings
> > >(considered the Dukes of Braganza) descend from French dinasties (this we
> > >all know by history!),
yes, many times over.
also, from the kings of castile, aragon and leon.
and from a few spanish noble families.
but where is the link between the dukes of braganza and the ancient world?
> >
> > Can the Portuguese kings descend from the Pharaohs? Yes, with so many
> > generations in between, anything is possible.
> > Can it be through a
> > French/Armenian connection? Fat chance.
now, this french/armenian connection has been studied and mentioned here
from time to time.
but was this the link we all heard about?
in particular, as it is explained
> the archives. Your genealogist is probably referring to the book by
> Christian Settipani, "Nos ancetres de l'antiquite" (Paris, 1991), which
> puts forward a series of arguments connecting the kings of France through
> the Byzantines, the Armenians, the Parthians, the Greeks, the Persians and
> the Egyptians.
i have not read that book, but i have been looking in other sources, in
particular history books (runciman, hill) and some genealogical works by
rudt-collenberg.
i will post something about it later. as i am curious to know how it fits
with settipani's theories.
> Its well worth the read if you can get it, and the
> bibliography is outstanding; just don't take it literally since many of
> the arguments are highly conjectural. I regard this subject mostly as a
> good source of interesting research topics.
well, it is not available down here. neither are most other sources
mentioned in this group.
>
> Is there a French/Armenian connection?
some people take it for granted...
but i wonder if there is more than one, and which one we are talking
about.
> quite a long way, at least to the Arsacids and maybe to the Achaemenids,
i am coming to that.
has anybody come across actual historical narrations, mentioned and quoted
briefly by different authors.
in particular, after looking through the genealogies of the kings of
cyprus, armenia and jerusalem, the farthest i can get is to abulgarib
artsuni (spelling!) whose daughter seems to have married an ancestor of
the the hethumids--oshin i, p. of lampron, governor of western cilicia,
died in 1110, an ancestor to alice of lampron, from whom the ibelin and
the kings of cyprus descend.
in connection to this, i wonder if anybody has read
1) the history of medieval armenia written by prince hethoum, which was
translated into english not long ago.
i would think it can elaborate more on the links to the previous armenian
kings (bagratids, artsuni, etc) but i have not received this book yet.
2) the history of the house of artsuni.
some other books on the various armenian kingdoms and principalities in
the period before the crusades.
hoping to hear more on this topic,
jms
Jared Olar
Before I begin, let me apologise for the incredible length of this post.
You'd better just print this one out and read at leisure over the next
few evenings . . . .
----------------------------------------
Fred, this lineage you found reminds me of the April Fools Day genealogy
which was circulated here this year, which traced Wesley Crusher (a
fictional character from the t.v. series Star Trek--The Next Generation)
back to J. R. R. Tolkien's Kings of Numenor and Lords of Andunie. Along
the way, Mr. Crusher's pedigree picked up all sorts of stowaways,
including King Arthur and "Robin Hood, Prince of Thebes." Others here
can probably critique this 'descent from antiquity' far better than I,
but I can spot several problems myself. I'll break the lineage into
sections and comment on it as I go . . . .
>On Tue, 9 Jul 1996, Fred Tiedemann Croese wrote:
>
> PHILIP OF MACEDONIA
> M. OLYMPIAS & PHILINNA
> ___________________|____________________
> | |
> LAGOS (THE RABBIT) ALEXANDER THE GREAT
> M. CONCUBINE? M. ROXANNA & STATIRA
Sir Anthony Richard Wagner's PEDIGREE AND PROGRESS includes several
pedigrees concerning the ancient Hellenistic monarchies of the Near
East. Henceforth this book will be referred to as "Wagner."
Wagner, Pedigree 7, shows the following concerning Philip of Macedon:
PHILIP II, King of Macedonia 359-336 B.C., had five wives/concubines
(uncertain in what order he married them):
AUDATA, mother of Philip's daughter Cynane, who married
Amyntas III, King of Macedonia (died 336).
OLYMPIAS (died 316), daughter of Neoptolemus I, King of Epirus
(died circa 360). Olympias was the mother of Alexander
the Great.
NICESOPOLIS OF PHERAE
PHILINNA OF LARISSA
ARSINOE, wife of LAGUS--their son was PTOLEMY I, King of Egypt.
Thus, we see that Ptolemy's mother Arsinoe was a wife (or concubine
rather) of Philip. Therefore, in a very loose sense, Ptolemy was a
"brother" of Alexander the Great. ("Half-brother-in-law"???) But
Ptolemy's father Lagus was NOT a son of Philip.
> |
> PTOLEMY I SOTER
> M. BERENICE
Wagner, Pedigrees 7, 8, and 10, show the following:
________________
| |
Cassander Antipater
| ______|________
| | |
Philip II===Arsinoe===Lagus===Antigone Cassander Nicaea
| | | m.Thessalonica m.Lysimachus
| | |_______ (see left) |
| | | |
Thessalonica PTOLEMY I SOTER===Berenice |
m.Cassander d.285 B.C. |___________ |
(see right) | |
PTOLEMY II PHILADELPHUS===Arsinoe
d.246 B.C.
Wagner, Pedigree 10, shows Ptolemy I Soter's wives as follows:
ARTACAMA, daughter of Artabazus II, Satrap of Bactria.
(Wagner, Pedigree 6. shows that Artacama's sister
BARSINE was one of the wives of Alexander the Great,
mother of his son HERACLES who died 309 B.C.)
EURYDICE, daughter of Antipater. (Wagner does not indicate
who this Antipater was. As shown above, King
Cassander of Macedonia was the son of an Antipater.
Also, Cassander's son was named Antipater--he married
Eurydice, daughter of Lysimachus. Thus, Eurydice
was a sister of Arsinoe above, wife of Ptolemy II.)
BERENICE, half-sister of Ptolemy I, daughter of Lagus by
Antigone, niece of Antipater.
By the way, I read somewhere about speculation that one of the early
Ptolemies ****could**** have married a descendant of native Egyptian
priests, kings, or Pharaohs . . . but I doubt much has been (or could
be) done to verify that guess. One thing is certain, though--the
Ptolemies were "Egyptianised," even to the point of reviving ancient
Pharaonic incest.
> |
> PTOLEMY II PHILADELPHUS
> M. ARSINOE
> M. CONCUBINE?
> |
> PTOLEMY III EUERGETES
> M. BERENICE
Wagner, Pedigree 10, shows Ptolemy III and his sister Berenice (wife of
Antiochus II Theos, King of Syria) as the children of his wife Arsinoe,
daughter of Lysimachus, King of Thrace. Pedigree 10 also shows Ptolemy's
wife Berenice as a daughter of Magos, King of Cyrene, by Apama, daughter
of Antiochus I, King of Syria.
> |
> PTOLEMY IV PHILOPATOR
> M. ARSINOE III
According to Wagner, Pedigree 10, Ptolemy IV and Arsinoe III were brother
and sister, both children of Ptolemy III by his wife Berenice.
> |
> PTOLEMY V EPIPHANES
> M. CLEOPATRA I
Wagner, Pedigree 10, shows Ptolemy V as a son of Ptolemy IV and
Arsinoe, and Cleopatra I as a daughter of Antiochus III, King of Syria.
The pedigree continues as follows:
Ptolemy V Epiphanes===Cleopatra
d.181 or 180 B.C. |
_________________________|_____________
| |
PTOLEMY VI PHILOMETOR===Cleopatra |
d.145 B.C. |____________ |
| |
Cleopatra===Ptolemy VII
Euergetes
(Physcon)
d.116 B.C.
Ptolemy VI was called PHILOMETOR--"Lover of One's Mother." Was his wife
Cleopatra identical to his own mother Cleopatra? (This dynasty's
adoption of traditional Pharaonic incestuous practices is well
documented--but is this also an example of their incest?)
> |
> PTOLEMY VII PHYSCON
> M. CLEOPATRA II
> M. CLEOPATRA III
Wagner, Pedigree 10, shows only one wife for Physcon (Cleopatra, his
niece).
> |
> PTOLEMY VIII LATHYRUS
> M. CLEOPATRA IV
Wagner, Pedigree 10, shows TWO wives named Cleopatra for Ptolemy
Lathyrus. To tell them apart, the second one was also named Selene.
Both of his wives were his full sisters. By the elder sister named
Cleopatra, Lathyrus had a daughter named Berenice Philadelphus, who
became the wife of her uncle PTOLEMY IX ALEXANDER I (who died 88 B.C.),
brother of Lathyrus.
> |
> PTOLEMY XI AULETES
> M. EUPATRA, daughter of MITHRIDATES
> _______|___________________________________
> | |
> ARSINOE CLEOPATRA VII
> M. MENNEUS M. JULIUS CAESAR
> M. MARK ANTONY
According to Wagner, Pedigree 10, Ptolemy XI Auletes was also known as
NEOS DIONYSOS (the New Dionysus, the New Bacchus). His wife was his
sister Cleopatra--Wagner says nothing of this Eupatra, daughter of
Mithridates. Auletes and his wife/sister Cleopatra were both
illegitimate children of Ptolemy VIII Lathyrus. Wagner, Pedigree 10,
shows the children of Auletes and Cleopatra as:
BERENICE, wife of Archelaus, who was made high priest of Comana by
General Pompey in 60 B.C. His father was Archelaus, a
general of Mithridates VI, King of Pontus, and perhaps a
descendant of the Kings of Macedonia. (The descendants of
Archelaus and Berenice intermarried with the family of
King Herod the Great, afterwards becoming Roman client
kings of Armenia--the subject of this and related lineages
has recently come up here on Gen-Medieval.)
PTOLEMY XII, who died 48 B.C.
PTOLEMY XIII, who died 44 B.C., last of his line to rule Egypt.
CLEOPATRA, Queen of Egypt, wife of Caesar and Antony.
Wagner's Pedigree Charts show no trace of an Arsinoe, daughter of Ptolemy
Auletes and sister of Queen Cleopatra. Nor do his charts show any
Menneus, nor any Ptolemy Bar Menneus. I cannot recall ever seeing this
Ptolemy Bar Menneus before.
> |
> PTOLEMY BAR MENNEUS
> M. CONCUBINE?
> M. ALEXANDRIA REGENT
> |
> MARIAMNE
> M. HEROD THE GREAT
This is all wrong, and seems to be quite garbled.
Of King Herod's several wives, there were two named Mariamne (Miriam).
The first one was the heiress of the Hasmonaeans (the Maccabees), High
Priests of the Jews and Kings of Judaea. The second one was the daughter
of Simon, High Priest of the Jews. Neither Mariamne was the son of
"Ptolemy Bar Menneus," whoever he was (or, as I rather suspect, was not!).
Here is the lineage according to Wagner, Pedigree 16:
Alexander Jannaeus===Alexandra
(Jonathan) |
d.78 B.C. |
__________________|__________
| |
Aristobulus Hyrcanus II
d.49 B.C. |
|________ _________|
| |
Alexander===Alexandra Antipater
d.49 B.C. | _________|______
| | |
Mariamne===Herod the Great Salome
| d. 4 B.C. m.Castobanes
|___________ |
| |
Aristobulus===Berenice
d.7 or 6 B.C.
> |
> ARISTOBULUS
> M. BERENICE
> |
> MARIAMNE (ARRIA THE ELDER)
> M. T. FLAVIUS SABINUS II
> |
> MARIAMNE (CAECINA ARRIA THE YOUNGER)
> M. SILLIUS DOMITIUS
> M. GAIUS CALPERNIUS PISO
> M. LUCIUS CALPERNIUS PISO
Wagner's Pedigree Charts have no trace of these two Mariamnes, nor of any
women named Arria. Wagner, Pedigree 16, shows the children of
Aristobulus and Berenice as follows:
HEROD AGRIPPA I, King of Judaea 44-44 A.D.
HERODIAS, wife of her uncle Herod Philip, by whom she became the
mother of Salome (she of "John the Baptist's Severed
Head" fame). Afterwards Herodias married Herod Antipas,
brother of Herod Philip--it was John the Baptist's
criticism of the incestuous marriage of Herodias and
Antipas that eventuated in John's beheading.
ARISTOBULUS, who married Iotape, sister of Azizus, priest king
of Emesa.
HEROD POLLIO, King of Chalcis (died 48 A.D.), who married
his niece Berenice, daughter of Herod Agrippa I.
But no Mariamne, and no Arria.
> |
> | (Son by Lucius)
> |
> ARRIUS (ANTONINUS) CALPERNIUS PISO (JOSEPHUS)
> M. BOIONIA PROCILLA SERVILIA
This is interesting. Has Calpernius Piso been identified as the Jewish
historian Flavius Josephus??? I hope not, since the lineage of Josephus
is known, and he certainly was NOT of mixed Roman and Jewish descent.
Rather, he was of the family of Aaron (that of the priests), and close of
kin to the Hasmonaeans.
> |
> POMPEIA PLOTINA CLAUDIA PHOEBE PISO
> M. CORNELIUS RUFUS
> M. EMPEROR TRAJAN
> |
> DOMITIA LUCILLA II
> M. JULIANUS CALPERNIUS PISO
> |
> MARCUS AURELIUS (the Emperor)
> M. FAUSTINA II
> |
> CRISPUS COMMODUS
> M. BRUTTIA CRISPINA
I don't know anything about the lineage and family relationships of the
Flavian Emperors of the second century, but I've never before encountered
a pedigree tracing a wife of Emperor Trajan back to King Herod the Great of
Judaea. I'm not saying it's impossible--but if true, I highly doubt it
happened anything like what we see here.
The further we go along this lineage, the more and more it reminds me of
the April Fools Day genealogy!
> |
> CLAUDIA CRISPINA
> M. EUTROPIUS
> |
> CLOVIS CONSTANTIUS I (CHLORUS)
> M. THEODORA
> M. ST. HELENA
> ___|__________________________________________
> | |
> CONSTANTINA EMPEROR CONSTANTINE I THE GREAT
> M. LICINIUS
First, the name "Clovis" here is all wrong. That is a name from a much
later time, being another form of the name LOUIS--from Frankish and
Germanic forms such as CHLODOVECH, HLUDOWIG, etc. (But this merging of
Frankish and Roman names may well have something to do with the later
nonsense we'll see below, concerning the origin of the Merovingians.)
Wagner, Pedigree 24, shows Constantius Chlorus' wife Theodora as a
daughter of a woman named EUTROPIA. According to Wagner, Theodora's
husband was perhaps from the province of Asia, or perhaps was someone
named Afranius Hannibalianus. Theodora's stepfather, Eutropia's second
husband, was the Emperor MAXIMIAN, who reigned 286-305, and died 309 or
310 A.D. By Emperor Maximian, Eutropia had a daughter named FLAVIA
MAXIMA FAUSTA, wife of Emperor Constantine the Great.
If I remember right, I've read somewhere that the family of Constantine the
Great was related to the gens Claudii. In light of that, the above name
Claudia Crispina is interesting. How far back is the ancestry of
Constantine traceable? Wagner's charts do not show any of the ancestry
of Constantius Chlorus.
"CONSTANTINA" above is an error for CONSTANTIA, half-sister of Emperor
Constantine. Constantia was a daughter of Constantius Chlorus by his
second wife Theodora. Wagner agrees with you here, making Constantia the
wife of LICINIUS, who was Emperor 308-324 (died 325 A.D.).
> |
> LICINIANUS
> M. CONCUBINE?
> |
> VALENTINIAN I
> M. JUSTINA
This is entirely wrong.
Emperor Valentinian I was NOT the son of Licinianus. Wagner traces no
descent from Emperor Licinius and Constantia. Instead, he shows Emperor
Valentinian I as the son of a certain GRATIAN of Cibalae in Pannonia
(Hungary), who was dead by 367 A.D.
Wagner, Pedigree 24, shows Valentinian's second wife as JUSTINA, daughter
of Justus. By his first wife MARINA SEVERA, Valentinian was the father
of Emperor Gratian (367-383), who married CONSTANTIA, daughter of Emperor
Constantius II, son of Constantine the Great.
> |
> VALENTINA JUSTINA
> M. THEODOSIUS I MAGNUS
As Wagner, Pedigree 24, shows, Emperor Theodosius did indeed marry a
daughter of Valentinian and Justina. However, her name was GALLA, not
"Valentina Justina."
> |
> 'ARCADIUS' CLAUDIUS CLAUDIANUS
> M. EUDOXIA
> M. SIEGSE
Wagner, Pedigree 24, agrees in making Emperor Arcadius a son of Emperor
Theodosius. However, Arcadius' mother was AELIA FLAVIA FLACCILLA, the
first wife of Theodosius, *not* Galla, daughter of Valentinian!
True, Emperor Arcadius married Eudoxia. She was daughter of Bauto, who
was a Frankish German. But I have no idea what this "Siegse" is doing
here. The only place I've seen a "Siegse" is in the pedigree charts of that
pathetic excuse for a book, HOLY BLOOD--HOLY GRAIL, by Baigent, Leigh, and
Lincoln. As will become evident, the succeeding generations carry the
taint of that foolish rubbish heap.
Baigent, Leigh, and Lincoln's pedigree chart shows us the following:
MEROVEE===SIEGSE===CLODION VI
Frankish | King of Cambrai
leader 417 A.D. | 438-448 A.D.
|
MEROVEE THE YOUNG
King of Franks of Yssel
448-458 A.D.
> |
> MEROVECH (MEROVEE THE YOUNG)
> M. CONCUBINE?
Merovee the Young as the son of Arcadius and Siegse??? It looks like
somebody merged the historical account of Emperor Arcadius marrying a
woman of Frankish descent with the legends and fictions of the origin of
the Frankish Merovingian Dynasty! As if the legend of descent from a
Merman wasn't enough, now we've got to trace the Merovingians back to the
Roman Emperors?? Who would have thought that Merovech was a half-brother
of Emperor Theodosius II!
In light of this lineage purporting to trace the Merovingians back to
Arcadius, it is noteworthy that in actual fact Emperor Arcadius' son
Theodosius II had a daughter named Eudoxia, wife of Valentinian III, by
whom she became the mother of yet another Eudoxia, wife of HUNERIC, King
of the Vandals. This is a marital connection between the Roman Emperors
and Germanic kings--but these are the Vandals, not the Franks!
By the way, could anyone tell me what authority there is for SIEGSE as
the name of Chlodio's wife (the one supposedly abducted and impregnated
by the Merman, thus explaining Merovech name, "Born of the Sea") ? Was
that just something else Baigent, Leigh, and Lincoln invented, or were
they possibly repeating a falsehood of some earlier legend-writer?
> |
> CHILDERICH CLAUDIOS I
> M. ANDOVERA
Gregory of Tours' HISTORY OF THE FRANKS says that Childerich I, King of
the Franks, was the son of Merovech. However, Gregory relates the legend
of Childerich's adulterous affair and abduction of BASINA, Queen of
Thuringia, husband of King Bisinus, and says absolutely nothing of any
"Andovera." (In any case, I suspect this is a spelling error for
AUDOVERA, a feminine Germanic name of that era.) Also, I have no idea
where Childerich's reputed secondary name "Claudios" came from--presumably
related in some way to King Chlodio ?? (Or perhaps like the earlier
reference to "Clovis Constantius," a merged German and Roman name?)
The next segment of the pedigree is demonstrably taken from Baigent,
Leigh, and Lincoln. I will insert their version in a column to the
right, for easy comparison:
> |
> CLOVIS I (d. 511 A.D.) EVOCHILDE===CLOVIS I===CLOTHILDE
> M. EVOCHILDE (pagan) 456-511 | (Christian)
> M. CLOTHILDE |
> | |
> CHLOTHAR I 6 wives===CLOTAIRE I
> M. RADEGUNDA | 511-558
Before I continue, I should point out here that Gregory of Tours makes
absolutely clear that Queen Radegunda was NOT the mother of King
Chilperich. Rather, it was another wife of Chlothar, a Thuringian
princess named AREGUNDA, daughter of King Berhthar, who was Chilperich's
mother.
> | |
> CHILPERICH I GALESWINTHE===CHILPERIC I===FREDEGONDE
> M. GALSWINTHA 561-584 |
> M. FREDEGONDE |
> | |
> CHLOTHAR II 3 wives===CLOTAIRE II
> M. (3 wives) | 584-628
> | |
> DAGOBERT I 5 wives===DAGOBERT I
> M. (5 wives) | 602-638
> | |
> SIGISBERT III SIGISBERT III===IMMACHILDE
> M. IMMACHILDE 629-656 |
> | |
> DAGOBERT II MATHILDE===DAGOBERT II===GISELLE
> M. MATHILDE (Irish) 651-679 | DE RAZES
> M. GISELLA DE RAZES |
> | |
> ADELA/IDA OF NIVELLES SIGISBERT IV
> M. PEPIN OF LANDEN Count of Razes
> M. ALBERIC (Aubri) 676-758
I'm no expert on the Merovingians, so I have no way to tell exactly how
accurate this lineage is. The male line descent from Clovis to Dagobert II
seems to be pretty well established, as well as several of the names of the
wives. But I know nothing of Immachilde, Mathilde, and Giselle de Razes.
I am particularly suspicious of Gisella de Razes, since she is a part of
that whole complex of names and fabricated genealogy found in Baigent,
Leigh, and Lincoln. "Sigisbert IV, Count of Razes" does not appear in any
Frankish history I've ever read--and anyway this era was **long** before
feudalism--comital holdings and titles were not inherited that way for about
three more centuries.
In Weis' ANCESTRAL ROOTS, we find a lineage traced back to an "Aubri" or
Alberic, who is said to have married ADELA, daughter of Dagobert, King of
the Franks--but that was Dagobert III, not Dagobert II.
Pepin of Landen's wife was ITTA or Iduberga, thought to be a daughter of
Arnoaldus, Bishop of Metz (though this has been questioned in recent
years). I know of no evidence making Pepin a son-in-law of Dagobert II,
nor of identifying his wife Itta as the Adela who is said to have married
Aubri--nor do we find (to my knowledge anyway) Aubri's wife Adela
described as widow of Pepin, nor Aubri referred to as stepfather of St.
Begga, daughter of Pepin and Itta.
> |
> BEGGA
> M. ANSEGIS
> |
> PEPIN OF HERISTAL
> M. PLECTRUDE
> M. ALPAIS
> |
> CHARLES MARTEL
> M. CONCUBINE?
This segment of the lineage is pretty well established. Charles'
concubine was named Rotrou or Chrotrudis.
> |
> PEPIN THE SHORT
> M. BERTRADA (BERTHA)
> |
> CHARLEMAGNE
> M. (5 wives)
> |
> LOUIS I THE PIOUS
> M. IRMENGARD
> M. JUDITH
> |
> LOUIS II THE GERMAN
> M. EMMA OF BAVARIA
The segment of the lineage is also very well established.
> |
> CARLOMAN
> M. LITWINDE
> |
> ARNULF
> M. ODA
> |
> HEDWIGE
> M. OTTO OF SAXONY
Emperor Arnulf was indeed the son of Carloman, son of Louis the German.
However, I do not believe the ancestry of Otto's wife Hedwig has yet been
established. This lineage is mentioned in Weis' ANCESTRAL ROOTS (and
also appears in one of the volumes of PEDIGREES OF SOME OF EMPEROR
CHARLEMAGNE'S DESCENDANTS), but I do not know if it is proven or not, nor
do I know what actual authority first mentions it.
> |
> HENRY THE FOWLER
> M. MATILDA
> |
> HEDWIG
> M. HUGH THE GREAT
> |
> HUGH CAPET
> M. ADELIZA DE AQUITAINE
> |
> ROBERT II
> M. (3 wives)
> |
> HENRI I
> |
> PHILIP I
> |
> LOUIS VI THE FAT
> |
> LOUIS VII THE YOUNG, leader in the 2nd. Crusade (1147-1149 A.D.)
> M. (3 wives)
The rest of this is pretty standard stuff.
Well, another DFA bites the dust (but this one was hardly a serious
attempt).
Jared Olar
ol...@eagle.uis.edu
Chris Bennett
jms wrote:
<snip>
>
>well, it is not available down here. neither are most other sources
>mentioned in this group.
[it] being Settipani's book.
I'm not sure where "down here" or FIU.EDU is, but it looks like an
educational institution in the US, in which case you may be able to get it
through Inter Library Loan -- I know of at least one university library
(Berkeley) which has it. Alternatively, you can write to the publishers:
Editions Christian, 5, rue Alphonse Baudin, 75011 Paris. Its ISBN is
2-86496-050-6 and the list price is 215 FF.
>
> >
>> Is there a French/Armenian connection?
>some people take it for granted...
>but i wonder if there is more than one, and which one we are talking
>about.
Settipani went for the earliest link he could (arguably) find to the French
royal family, which connects at the marriage of Robert II to Constance of
Provence. There are certainly other links. The following ancestry comes
from A R Wagner's book Pedigrees and Progress (London, 1975) (and relates
to your own research, as well as to a challenge recently made here by
Stewart Baldwin!):
Henry IV K of France -> Anthony D. de Vendome, K of Navarre ->
Charles D. de Vendome -> Marie de St Pol -> Marguerite of Savoy ->
Anne of Cyrus -> Janus K of Cyprus -> James I K of Cyprus ->
Alice d'Ibelin -> Isabel d'Ibelin -> Bertrand II de Gibelet ->
Hugh de Gibelet, bailiff of Cyprus -> Doleta of Armenia -> Rita of Paperon
-> Smbat of Paperon -> Hethoum II Pr of Lampron -> [unnamed daughter] ->
Abulgharib Artsruni, gov Tarsus -> Hasan -> Khach'ik, Pr of T'ornavan ?->?
Derenik -> Hamazasp III K of Vaspurakan -> Gagik III K of Vaspurakan ->
Sophia Bagratuni -> Ashot I K of Armenia -> Smbat VIII Constable of Armnia ->
Ashot the Brave, Pr of Armenia -> [unnamed daughter] -> Samuel II Mamikonian
Note that there is only one uncertain link in this path (the paternity of
Khach'ik, Pr of T'ornavan), according to Wagner. Samuel II, Prince of the
Mamikonians, was, as Stewart has pointed out, almost certainly descended
from the critical marriage between Hamazasp I and Shahanoysh, a known
Arsacid descendent.
<snip>
>
>in connection to this, i wonder if anybody has read
>
>1) the history of medieval armenia written by prince hethoum, which was
>translated into english not long ago.
>
>i would think it can elaborate more on the links to the previous armenian
>kings (bagratids, artsuni, etc) but i have not received this book yet.
>
>2) the history of the house of artsuni.
I haven't read either of these, can you give more specific bibliographic
details?
THanks,
Chris
jms
one more note on this thread...
some time ago, p.moniz was writing about a possible connection to the
ancient world for the portuguese kings, following a line;
> Subject: Egypt > Armenia > France > Portugal ?
now, from the spanish history books, i recall two byzantine ladies which
are a bit shadowy, her names are mentioned many times as donna helena and
donna vatatza, who are said to have been relatives of the byzantine
emperors (i don't have my notes here, but it was the emperors of
trebizond). one of the them is said to have married a portuguese knight
whose name escapes me, but i am not sure if there were descendants.
well, i will come back later with some data,
but for now i would also like to mention that there could be other lines
of descent through the marquises of montferrat, the angevin kings of
naples or the kings of mallorca.
Todd A. Farmerie
In a previous article, jsar...@FIU.EDU (jms) says:
>On Mon, 8 Jul 1996, Chris Bennett wrote:
>
>> > >I heard a Portuguese genealogist saying that the Portuguese kings
>> > >(considered the Dukes of Braganza) descend from French dinasties (this we
>> > >all know by history!),
>
>yes, many times over.
>also, from the kings of castile, aragon and leon.
>and from a few spanish noble families.
>
>but where is the link between the dukes of braganza and the ancient world?
>
I know of two links that have been discussed in serious genealogical works.
1. The descent of Constance, Queen of France and great-grandmother of Henry
of Portugal. It has been speculated that her grandmother Constance was
daughter of Charles Constantine, who in turn was grandson of a "Macedonian"
emperor of the eastern empire. This dynasty has an armenian connection,
and has been taken on back through several hypothetical linkages.
2. The first of the Braganzas (the original family, whose heiress passed
the title to a younger son of the Portuguese royal family) is said to have
kidnapped and forcibly married an armenian "princess" who had come on a
pilgrimage to Santiago. She has been identified through a process of
elimination with a particular armenian dynasty, and traced on back. (For
what it's worth to all those Sancha de Ayala followers out there, I am
relatively confident that she descended from the "princess".)
The former of these is the Settipani connection discussed here repeatedly.
The latter must be dismissed, since one can not expect even a near-
contemporary portuguese source to correctly identify the rank of a
kidnapped pilgrim from the other side of the world. The author of does not
do favor to her hypothesis by suggesting that the Visigoth kings of Spain
were actually armenian too, and indicating that Pedro of Cantabria was a
descendant.
Still, I suspect that neither of these are the line being refered to by the
original poster.
Todd
Jared Olar
>in connection to this, i wonder if anybody has read
>
>1) the history of medieval armenia written by prince hethoum, which was
>translated into english not long ago.
I think we've got it here in Springfield in our university library, but I
haven't read it yet. (Assuming this is the same book.)
Jared Olar
Alsos
>Can this be possible ? Can Portuguese kings descend from Pharaohs ?
Anything is possible, but this more fantasy than fact.
Stewart Baldwin
Chris Bennett <cben...@ADNC.COM> wrote:
[snip]
>Settipani went for the earliest link he could (arguably) find to the French
>royal family, which connects at the marriage of Robert II to Constance of
>Provence. There are certainly other links. The following ancestry comes
>from A R Wagner's book Pedigrees and Progress (London, 1975) (and relates
>to your own research, as well as to a challenge recently made here by
>Stewart Baldwin!):
>Henry IV K of France -> Anthony D. de Vendome, K of Navarre ->
>Charles D. de Vendome -> Marie de St Pol -> Marguerite of Savoy ->
>Anne of Cyrus -> Janus K of Cyprus -> James I K of Cyprus ->
>Alice d'Ibelin -> Isabel d'Ibelin -> Bertrand II de Gibelet ->
>Hugh de Gibelet, bailiff of Cyprus -> Doleta of Armenia -> Rita of Paperon
>-> Smbat of Paperon -> Hethoum II Pr of Lampron -> [unnamed daughter] ->
>Abulgharib Artsruni, gov Tarsus -> Hasan -> Khach'ik, Pr of T'ornavan ?->?
>Derenik -> Hamazasp III K of Vaspurakan -> Gagik III K of Vaspurakan ->
>Sophia Bagratuni -> Ashot I K of Armenia -> Smbat VIII Constable of Armnia ->
>Ashot the Brave, Pr of Armenia -> [unnamed daughter] -> Samuel II Mamikonian
>Note that there is only one uncertain link in this path (the paternity of
>Khach'ik, Pr of T'ornavan), according to Wagner. Samuel II, Prince of the
>Mamikonians, was, as Stewart has pointed out, almost certainly descended
>from the critical marriage between Hamazasp I and Shahanoysh, a known
>Arsacid descendent.
[snip]
Although I am not familiar enough with the above line to give a
generation-by-generation critique, I would like to see much more
before I accept this line. First, a dotted line in Wagner's book (his
indication of uncertainty) is sometimes no more than a guess, in which
someone with a given surname is assigned a chronologically convenient
father of the same surname, without any significant evidence of a
father-son relationship. Second, Wagner's source for much of this
line is "Information from Prince Toumanoff," without giving any source
which someone could actually check. Toumanoff is a historian, not a
genealogist, and there are frequent examples where Toumanoff has
asserted genealogical relationships on very flimsy evidence, some of
which I discussed in my long posting last month. Thus, I would
consider the vague "Information from Prince Toumanoff," as a source,
to be of roughly similar quality to "Burke's Peerage." Neither one
provides any reasonable way of checking the information given, and
even though most of the relationships given will be correct, a
significant number will be wrong (possibly at a crucial link), and
there is no good way to tell the difference. The line could very well
be correct, but I would like to see some checkable citations.
To add to the possibilities of getting a European link to these
Armenian families, let me mention one more possibility, which was
suggested in the book "Blood Royal" by Moncreiffe and Pottinger
(1956). The Riurikid Vsevelod III was married to Maria of Ossetia,
mother of at least some of his children though whom lines can be
traced to the present. There is some possibility that Maria was a
Bagratid, descended from the key marriage mentioned above to a
daughter of the Mamikonid Samuel II. In his genealogical charts of
the Bagratids, Justi, in his book "Iranisches Namenbuch," shows a
certain Athom, king of Ossetia, who is given as a great-grandson of
George I, the Bagratid king of Georgia (d. 1027). The chart gives no
dates for Athom, but he would seem to be roughly two generations
before Maria of Ossetia, as Athom's grandson (according to Justi) was
David Soslan (d. 1208), husband of the famous Queen Thamar of Georgia,
and thereby ancestor of the later Georgian monarchs. Unfortunately, I
do not know Justi's sources for any of this information, nor do I have
any data on the exact parentage of Maria of Ossetia. Can anyone else
shed more light on this?
Stewart Baldwin
Stewart Baldwin
Chris Bennett <cben...@ADNC.COM> wrote:
[big snip]
>>2) the history of the house of artsuni.
>I haven't read either of these, can you give more specific bibliographic
>details?
Thomas Artsruni's "History of the House of Artsrunik'" was translated
into English (with commentary) by Robert W. Thompson, published by the
Wayne University Press in Detroit, 1985. The sole surviving
manuscript of this work was copied in 1303 from a work which was
written by Thomas Artsruni in the early tenth century. This "History"
is a piece of political propoganda, written for the glorification of
the Artsruni daynasty, and the early part, which traces the family
from the kings of Assyria, cannot be taken seriously. For the period
closer in time to the author, it can be a useful source if one keeps
the author's extreme bias in mind.
Stewart Baldwin
jms
hello,
coming to the subject again, under a slightly different cloak,
> >
>
> I know of two links that have been discussed in serious genealogical works.
>
> 1. The descent of Constance, Queen of France and great-grandmother of Henry
> of Portugal. It has been speculated that her grandmother Constance was
> daughter of Charles Constantine, who in turn was grandson of a "Macedonian"
> emperor of the eastern empire. This dynasty has an armenian connection,
> and has been taken on back through several hypothetical linkages.
yes, this has been discussed in this group several times.
i was not aware of the second possible link. however, i was puzzled by the
names of the first dukes of braganza. in particular theodosio.
>
> 2. The first of the Braganzas (the original family, whose heiress passed
> the title to a younger son of the Portuguese royal family) is said to have
> kidnapped and forcibly married an armenian "princess" who had come on a
> pilgrimage to Santiago. She has been identified through a process of
> elimination with a particular armenian dynasty, and traced on back. (For
> what it's worth to all those Sancha de Ayala followers out there, I am
> relatively confident that she descended from the "princess".)
hum, that sounds a bit far-fetched. who came up with this theory? is it
based on some historical facts? why armenian, exactly? could it have been
from cyprus or the latin orient instead?
> The latter must be dismissed, since one can not expect even a near-
> contemporary portuguese source to correctly identify the rank of a
> kidnapped pilgrim from the other side of the world.
i see. it sounds a little strange that they would come all the way from
armenia, and such an important person would have been mentioned by name in
chronicles, i would expect.
> The author of does not
> do favor to her hypothesis by suggesting that the Visigoth kings of Spain
> were actually armenian too, and indicating that Pedro of Cantabria was a
> descendant.
>
oh boy. that is really weird.
> Still, I suspect that neither of these are the line being refered to by the
> original poster.
>
i got that impression too.
however, looking through my notes, i did not find anything close.
there was that don~a helena and don~a vatatza, but i think they lived in
an earlier period. it is possible that one of them was a natural daughter
of the emperor john ducas vatatzes. i first found them mentioned in
connection with constance of hohenstaufen, who was the second wife of one
of those emperors; if i remember correctly, she was an aunt of the other
constance, who married the king of aragon. apparently, she came back to
the west with some company after the death of theodore ii. i will look
again and see what i find.
i was thinking that perhaps there were some descendants of the anjou. i
don't have the charts here, but one of the dukes (of tarento?) married a
byzantine princess...some relatives married into the balliol and des baux
families--there were many daughters of the various princes, and i am not
sure i tracked all of them.
and then, there are the kings of the balearic islands. the infant
ferdinand married an ibelin and also an heiress in greece. his son
ferdinand married a daughter of king hugh IV of cyprus, and had a
daughter, eschiva, who remained in cyprus...however, he escaped back to
the west and disappeared from history.
and there were also the counts of ribagorza and urgel whose connections i
don'k now well. one of the daughters of pedro de ribagorza, eleanor, was
queen of cyprus and armenia.
well, i really don't expect to find any descendants from these marriages
except for the well known house of savoy. but i wonder if we have missed
something.
jms
coming back to the armenian lines of descent,
we were talking about one from wagner:
The following ancestry comes
> >from A R Wagner's book Pedigrees and Progress (London, 1975) (and relates
> >to your own research, as well as to a challenge recently made here by
> >Stewart Baldwin!):
>
> >Henry IV K of France -> Anthony D. de Vendome, K of Navarre ->
> >Charles D. de Vendome -> Marie de St Pol -> Marguerite of Savoy ->
> >Anne of Cyrus -> Janus K of Cyprus -> James I K of Cyprus ->
ok, this is well known, i think. i was looking into the ancestry of the
count of st pol but i don't have the data now. anyway, i will come back to
it later.
the next part is one of the lines i was able to find in runciman (history
of the crusades) and also in the book by rudt-collenberg.
> >Alice d'Ibelin -> Isabel d'Ibelin -> Bertrand II de Gibelet ->
> >Hugh de Gibelet, bailiff of Cyprus -> Doleta of Armenia -> Rita of Paperon
> >-> Smbat of Paperon -> Hethoum II Pr of Lampron ->
i had a rather longuish comment about gibelets and the armenian links:
helvis of ibelin (+1347), wife of henry of brunswick (1289-1350), was the
mother of philippe of brunskwick (1332/4-1369), who married helvis of
dampierre, daughter of eudes. this couple were the parents of heloise of
brunswick, who married james i, k. of cyprus, from whom there is the line
through the house of savoy.
anyway, going back to the line, helvis of ibelin (+1347), mentioned above
was a daughter of philippe of ibelin (+1318), seneschal, and regent, and
of his wife maria (embriaco) of gibelet (+1331), who are mentioned by
wagner.
MARIA of GIBELET had a line of descent from the armenian princes as
follows:
1)Zabel, queen of armenia, married hethoum, who then became king.
they were the parents of euphemia of armenia, who married julian of sidon
(son of balian of sidon and margaret of brienne, grandson of reynald
garnier, lord of sidon, and of helvis of ibelin...and helvis was daugher
of balian of ibelin and maria COMNENA. Now this byzantine princess, from
which there are several lines of descent, is said to have been daughter of
john ii by irene, daughter of ladislas i of hungary. [see the shorter
cambridge medieval history, vol i, p 536, table 15a] Maria had been the
wife of amaury i of jerusalem, by whom she also had children)
and from the notes i took from history of the crusades and
rudt-collenberg, i have a lot more data, of which i will mention
that balian of sidon's wife was actually margaret of risnel (+1252),
according to this source was the daughter of arnould of risnel and ida of
brienne, who was an aunt or sister of the famous john of brienne.
now, the line shown by wagner also comes from the hethumids:
alix of ibelin (+1386), married Hugh IV of Cyprus, was the daughter of
guy
of ibelin, seneschal by isabel of ibelin (+1315).
isabel of ibelin was the daughter of baudoin of ibelin and margaret.
gibelet.
margaret of gibelet, daughter of bertrand ii of gibelet and beatrice of
saint-simeon
bertrand ii of gibelet, son of hugh, baille of cyprus, and maria porcelet.
hugh of gibelet, son of bertrand i of gibelet 1193-1217 and dolette of
armenia
and finally dolette of armenia, daughter of stephane and rita of barbaron.
for stephane, i have :
leo i, lord of the mountains <-constantine , l of vaghka <- roupen, l. of
gobidan
and rita was the daughter of sempad, l. of barbaron
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
coming back to the hethumids,
another line from them is though:
alix of lampron,wife of balian of
ibelin, and mother of the guy of ibelin who married the isabella of
ibelin, and grandmother of queen alix.
from rudt-collenberg, i have this hethoum (iv of lampron) was married to a
rather mysterious lady, known as the princesse des princesses, whose
filiation is unkown.
hethoum iv, son of constantine (+120), lord of lampron, by rita of
barbaron (1220/6-74), a cousin (see below).
constantine, son of hethoum iii, lord of lampron by an unknown wife
hethoum iii, son of oshin ii +1170, lord of lampron, and schahantukhd
savan-phlavouni (spelling varies, but this is said to have been a very
important family, related to st gregory the illuminator).
oshin ii, son of hethoum ii of lampron +1143, lord of lampron, by unknown
wife
hethoum ii, son of oshin i +1110, lord of lampron, married to an unnamed
ardzrouni, daughter of the abul'gahrib ardzrouni.
and finally oshin i, son of hethoum i (+before 1071)
for stephanie of barbaron:
she was the daughter of constantine of barbaron +1263, the grand baron,
lord of barbaron by an unknown wife
constantine, son of vacaghk, l. of lamas, asgouras, barbaron by an unknown
wife
vacaghk, son of sempad +1153, lord of barbaron
sempad, son of hethum ii (+1143) lord of lampron.
> > [unnamed daughter] ->
> >Abulgharib Artsruni, gov Tarsus -> Hasan -> Khach'ik, Pr of T'ornavan ?->?
> >Derenik -> Hamazasp III K of Vaspurakan -> Gagik III K of Vaspurakan ->
> >Sophia Bagratuni -> Ashot I K of Armenia -> Smbat VIII Constable of Armnia ->
> >Ashot the Brave, Pr of Armenia -> [unnamed daughter] -> Samuel II Mamikonian
yes, that is what i have.
i also have some more information on the hethumids,but this posting is
getting way too long!
jms
coming back to the asrtsuni,
one would suspect the links back from the artsruni. i still have not read
it, though.
in any case, i was searching for an alternative route through the
hethumids themselves, they seem to be a branch of the save-pahlavouni, and
were distantly related to the mamikonean was well
oshin ii of lampron was married to schahantukhd, + after 1190, daughter
of schaham "aoravark" sebastos, stratege, died after 1173.
schaham may have been the son of abirad, lord of dzowk +1111/113 by his
wife vanine
and abirad, the son of abul-djahab, son grigor abirad pahlavouni +1021.
the mother of abirad, whose name is unknown, seems to have been a daughter
of gregorius magistros "dux mesotamiae" +1059
all of this from the book by rudt-collenberg.
where do i go from here?
jms
going back to another aspect of the present thread, there seems to have a
rather unbeliavable claim that the house of braganza had a line of descent
from the armenian kings.
looking through the notes, the closest i can find is the marriage between
john, son of the duke of coimbra, to charlotte of lusignan, queen of
cyprus. from hill's history of cyprus, it follows that the marriage took
place in 1456, when it seemed that charlotte was going to succeed her
father. john was made regent and prince of antioch, but fell off with the
queen mother, helena paleologa, and in any event, he died in 1457.
charlotte then married her first cousin peter of savoy, and succeeded her
father who also died in 1458, but was supplanted by her illegitimate
half-brother. she did have at least one son, but he was either still-born
or died very young. so, the link between portugal and cyprus did indeed
exist but was short lived.
Chris Bennett
Re the claim that the house of Braganza was descended from Armenian kings,
the following information derives from an article by Toumanoff (this man
pops up everywhere!): "Caucasia and Lusitania: a Dynastic Link?" in L. L.
Brook (ed): Studies in Genealogy and Family History in Tribute to Charles
Evans on the Occasion of his Eightieth Birthday" (APSL Occasional
Publication No 2, Salt Lake City, 1989) 362-365.
The claim is made in two articles [non vidi]:
N. Binayan Carmona: "Una pincesa Armenia en Compostela en el siglo XI: su
genealogia" in Estudios genealogicos, heraldicos y nobiliarios em honor de
Vicente de Cadenas y Vicent (2 vols, Madrid 1978) 131-155
R. Gulbenkian: "Les relations entre l'Armenie et le Portugal du Moyen-Age
au XVIe siecle", Revue des etudes armeniennes (NS) 14 (1980) 171-216
based on a story that Mendo Alao de Braganca had married by force the
daughter of a king of Armenia who was on a pilgrimage to Santiago de
Compostela. These articles take the story at face value and attempt to
identify her father. Toumanoff's view (I paraphrase) is that these
conjectures are entirely without merit (in his more restrained conclusion:
"its bearing upon genealogy is not very conclusive")
Chris
Todd A. Farmerie
In a previous article, jsar...@FIU.EDU (jms) says:
>> 2. The first of the Braganzas (the original family, whose heiress passed
>> the title to a younger son of the Portuguese royal family) is said to have
>> kidnapped and forcibly married an armenian "princess" who had come on a
>> pilgrimage to Santiago. She has been identified through a process of
>> elimination with a particular armenian dynasty, and traced on back. (For
>> what it's worth to all those Sancha de Ayala followers out there, I am
>> relatively confident that she descended from the "princess".)
>
>hum, that sounds a bit far-fetched. who came up with this theory? is it
>based on some historical facts? why armenian, exactly? could it have been
>from cyprus or the latin orient instead?
>
The original statement appears in the earliest genealogical writings of
Portugal, from a century or so after the fact, if I recall correctly. It
specifically calls her armenian.
>> The latter must be dismissed, since one can not expect even a near-
>> contemporary portuguese source to correctly identify the rank of a
>> kidnapped pilgrim from the other side of the world.
>
>i see. it sounds a little strange that they would come all the way from
>armenia, and such an important person would have been mentioned by name in
>chronicles, i would expect.
>
That they would come all the way from Armenia is not all that strange,
since Santiago was one of the prefered sites of pilgrimage. That a
princess would have been kidnapped without there being more press, that's
another story.
Todd
Micheline Lampron
Does somebody know the origin of the Fortress of Lampron (Hethoumids) in Cilicia before the eleventh century?
Peter Stewart
compiled: it was an old Byzantine stronghold in the Taurus mountains,
considered impregnable, that enters continuous history after it was
granted by Abulgharib Arsruni, governor of Tarsus, to his commander
Oshin of Gandzak, ancestor of the Cilician Hethoumids, in the 1070s.
Peter Stewart
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