Udo of Neustria's wife

[Paulo Canedo]

I have seen many genealogical websites saying that Udo of Neustria's wife was a daughter of Conrad of Auxerre and Adelaide of Tours, some are a bit more cautious and say probably. Onomastically, this would explain the name Conrad as a son and many descendants of Udo of Neustria, but was this ever proposed by a genealogist.

[Peter Stewart]

On 9/04/2017 3:25 AM, Paulo Canedo wrote:
> I have seen many genealogical websites saying that Udo of Neustria's wife was a daughter of Conrad of Auxerre and Adelaide of Tours, some are a bit more cautious and say probably. Onomastically, this would explain the name Conrad as a son and many descendants of Udo of Neustria, but was this ever proposed by a genealogist.

You would be better off discarding any website that refers to 'Udo of
Neustria' - this designation is completely spurious.

The person in question belonged to the Konradian family in eastern
Francia (i.e. modern Germany). Udo was count in the Lahngau, except for
a few years in the early 860s when he had to make himself scarce in his
homeland and along with his brother Berengar he fetched up in Neustria
under the aegis of their uncle Adalard the Seneschal. In that brief
interval Adalard evidently held one of two marks (or marquisates) in
Neustria, especially charged with defense against the Normans. Udo and
Berengar held 'honores' under their uncle's authority, probably in the
region of Le Mans. This arrangement did not last long and they were
relieved of their posts in 865.

Udo's wife is unknown, either by name or by family origin. It is thought
she may been a uterine half-sister, or perhaps a cousin, of Emperor
Arnulf, since Udo was most probably the father of Konrad the Elder, also
a count in the Lahngau, who was called 'nepos' by Arnulf.

The name Konrad may have been in their lineage for generations, and it
is just a sweeping guess to link this with the Welfing family of Conrad
the Elder. The latter, who married Adelaide of Tours, was count in the
Argengau, not count of Auxerre like his son Conrad the Younger - you
would also do well to discard any website that confuses the titles of
these two men.

Peter Stewart

[Paulo Canedo]

Mr. Peter, about their relationship with Adalard I think Adalard was their granduncle I follow Dietrich's theory that Udo was a grandson of Eudes of Orleans and Engeltrude sister of Adalard.

[Peter Stewart]

On 9/04/2017 7:22 PM, Paulo Canedo wrote:
> Mr. Peter, about their relationship with Adalard I think Adalard was their granduncle I follow Dietrich's theory that Udo was a grandson of Eudes of Orleans and Engeltrude sister of Adalard.

I assume you mean Irmgard Dietrich - but this theory would make Udo and
his brothers into nephews of Charles the Bald's first wife Ermentrude,
and the sources give no warrant that I can see for such a connection.

Peter Stewart

[Paulo Canedo]

Mr.Peter, but when we search for an uncle relationship between Adalard and Udo we see that there aren't many solutions since Udo's mother was a sister of Ernest of Bavaria we can exclude a relationship through this side and if we tried to jmake Gebhard brother of Adalard then we would have the problem of fitting him into the family of the Counts of Paris and therefore it is unlikely. Dietrich's theory has the advantage of simultaneously explaing the connection to Adalard, the name Udo/Eudes and the connection to the Lahngau. About that problem, I already knew about it and it doesn't seem strong enough to balance against the evidence.

[Peter Stewart]

On 9/04/2017 9:26 PM, Paulo Canedo wrote:
> Mr.Peter, but when we search for an uncle relationship between Adalard and Udo we see that there aren't many solutions since Udo's mother was a sister of Ernest of Bavaria we can exclude a relationship through this side and if we tried to jmake Gebhard brother of Adalard then we would have the problem of fitting him into the family of the Counts of Paris and therefore it is unlikely. Dietrich's theory has the advantage of simultaneously explaing the connection to Adalard, the name Udo/Eudes and the connection to the Lahngau. About that problem, I already knew about it and it doesn't seem strong enough to balance against the evidence.

That Udo's mother was a sister of Ernest is just another supposition as
far as I can tell. The only document I have seen adduced in support of
this connection is a false charter of Udo's father Gebhard for St
Severus at Gemünden, most probably forged in the 13th century, and even
that is simply subscribed by Ernest ("Signum Ernesti comitis") without
stating any family relationship. Did Dietrich cite anything else? (I
assume you are referencing her 1952 dissertation *Das Haus der
Konradiner*, that I have not seen.)

The evidence for Adalard belonging to the family of the counts of Paris
is not explicit, but only deduced. However, it is fairly strong compared
to the Ernest link.

There is no need to suppose a descent from Eudes of Orléans in order to
account for the name Udo - Gebhard's father was almost certainly also
named Udo, count in the Nieder-Lahngau in the 820s.

It seems to me an implausible silence that sources relating the
reception of Udo and his brothers by Charles the Bald in 861 would omit
to mention if they were nephews of the queen.

There are other ways to square the puzzling circle: for instance, Udo's
mother could have been a maternal half-sister of Adalard while the
queen's mother could have been his paternal half-sister, so that he
could be uncle to both Udo and Ermentrude without a cousin relationship
between them.

Peter Stewart

[D. Spencer Hines]

Hilarious!

Fantasy Genealogy...

...Akin To Mythology.

DSH

"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and
conscientious stupidity."

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
Strength to Love - Jan 1963

"Peter Stewart" wrote in message
news:mailman.305.14917764...@rootsweb.com...

[Paulo Canedo]

Mr.Peter, actually the Annales Fuldenses and Bertiniani show that Udo was a nepos of Ernest. About Udo of Lahngau, are you refering to the Uoto who appeared in documents with Waldrade widow of Hadrien if so that man is widely accepted to be the same man as Eudes of Orleans.

[Peter Stewart]

On 10/04/2017 9:26 PM, Paulo Canedo wrote:
> Mr.Peter, actually the Annales Fuldenses and Bertiniani show that Udo was a nepos of Ernest.

Unless I am missing something (along with the MGH indexer), Udo and his
brothers are mentioned twice in Annales Fuldenses, each time without
implying any blood relationship to Ernest. In Annales Bertiniani they
are called 'nepotes' of Ernest and 'propinqui' of Adalard, who in the
same context is called 'avunculus' to queen Ermentrude. This is not
exactly conclusive about how they were all interrelated.

> About Udo of Lahngau, are you refering to the Uoto who appeared in documents with Waldrade widow of Hadrien if so that man is widely accepted to be the same man as Eudes of Orleans.

If I follow you correctly, no - I'm referring to the Udo who occurs as
count in the Nieder-Lahngau in the early 820s, whose predecessor there
in the 770s (perhaps his father or grandfather) was named Conrad.

Peter Stewart

[Paulo Canedo]

The only count Udo in Lahngau I find in the early 820s is this Uoto who was probably a son of Hadrien and Waldrade and I think is somewhat unlikely there would be two counts of the name in the Lahngau at the same time.

[Peter Stewart]

I would say the count in the Nieder-Lahngau was very probably a close
relative of Waldrada, perhaps her brother, whose name was shared by her
son. The latter, Hadrien's son, was probably a court official in western
Francia by 826 and became count of Orléans in 828 - however, the Udo in
Nieder-Lahngau was still there until 831 from memory (this I will have
to check) and if so can't be the same man.

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

On 11/04/2017 9:24 AM, Peter Stewart wrote:
>
>
> On 10/04/2017 11:57 PM, Paulo Canedo wrote:

> I would say the count in the Nieder-Lahngau was very probably a close
> relative of Waldrada, perhaps her brother, whose name was shared by
> her son. The latter, Hadrien's son, was probably a court official in
> western Francia by 826 and became count of Orléans in 828 - however,
> the Udo in Nieder-Lahngau was still there until 831 from memory (this
> I will have to check) and if so can't be the same man.

My memory wasn't good enough - Udo does not occur in 831, but rather
Gebhard had succeeded as count in the Lahngau by the summer of 832.

As for identifying Udo with Eudes of Orléans, that is a cul-de-sac of
speculation without adequate evidence. It amuses me that the name is
assumed to have been transmitted into the Konradian lineage, rather than
the other way round, apparently guided by the chronology of a few
records that happen to be extant today, as if a future circumstance can
have retrospective evidentiary value. But this blinkered view is highly
typical of the "onomastics foremost" school of medieval genealogy.

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

On 10/04/2017 9:58 PM, Peter Stewart wrote:

>
>
> On 10/04/2017 9:26 PM, Paulo Canedo wrote:
>> Mr.Peter, actually the Annales Fuldenses and Bertiniani show that Udo
>> was a nepos of Ernest.
>

> Unless I am missing something (along with the MGH indexer), Udo and
> his brothers are mentioned twice in Annales Fuldenses, each time
> without implying any blood relationship to Ernest. In Annales
> Bertiniani they are called 'nepotes' of Ernest and 'propinqui' of
> Adalard, who in the same context is called 'avunculus' to queen
> Ermentrude. This is not exactly conclusive about how they were all
> interrelated.

It's worth noting that this was written by Hincmar, who almost certainly
knew the facts and whose usage of these terms can be compared with other
instances.

As far as I can see Hincmar tended to use 'nepos' for grandsons and
nephews rather than more loosely, making this a fairly good indication
that Ernest was a (full- or half-)brother to one of Udo's parents, more
probably to his mother.

He used 'avunculus' conventionally, so that Adalard was most probably a
(full- or half-)brother of Ermentrude's mother.

He used 'propinquus' to mean a close relative, including a first cousin,
i.e. as an alternative term for 'consobrinus' (mentioning that as a
young man he had seen Charlemagne's first cousin St Adalard, abbot of
Corbie, whom he called 'propinquus' to the emperor).

This doesn't of course preclude the possibility that Hincmar also used
'propinquus' for a great-uncle, as has been suggested, though this
doesn't strike me as plausible. The chronology would be somewhat
stretched if Udo and his brothers were two generations removed from
Adalard the Seneschal. The three brothers Udo, Berengar and Waldo were
all adults when they fled to western Francia in 861, and Waldo was
already an abbot (he has been variously called abbot of Fulda,
Schwarzach and St Maximin, but there are problems with each of these and
his abbey remains uncertain). Adalard and his presumed brother Gerard
both lived until the late 870s, that would be exceptional for two
siblings of a lady with grandsons who were adults nearly two decades
earlier.

Peter Stewart

[Paulo Canedo]

Mr.Peter the suggestion that Udo of Lahngau son of Hadrien and Waldrade was the same as Eudes of Orleans was first suggested by Levillain in order to explain the cousin relationship between Eudes's son Guillaume and Charles the Bald.

[Peter Stewart]

On 11/04/2017 7:17 PM, Paulo Canedo wrote:
> Mr.Peter the suggestion that Udo of Lahngau son of Hadrien and Waldrade was the same as Eudes of Orleans was first suggested by Levillain in order to explain the cousin relationship between Eudes's son Guillaume and Charles the Bald.
>

Fine, Levillain was making a suggestion that should have been considered
and that can't be either proved or disproved. But since his time it has
unfortunately come to be widely rated as more than that, as a
satisfactory solution - which it isn't. The the two Fulda charters do
not warrant deducing that Waldrada widow of Hadrien and the Udo who held
comital authority in the Lahngau were probably mother and son, only that
they were connected by a joint interest in donations. This could just as
well occur with brother and sister, or with cousins, etc.

From the point of view of those obsessed with onomastics, the name
Guillaume ought to be troubling to place in the Conradian lineage,
appearing with a brother and son of Eudes and then vanishing without a
trace. For the same reason they ought to question the one-off
appearances of the names Berengar and Waldo with two brothers of the
later Udo we have been discussing - maybe they had the same mother,
sister of Ernest, but a different father. But again, suggestions that
are incapable of proof are not very useful.

Peter Stewart

[Paulo Canedo]

That Udo was a son of Hadrien is supported because Hadrien had a father Gerold who is probably the same as Gerold father of Hildegarde wife of Charlemagne and a Eudes providing onomastic evidence.

[Stewart Baldwin]

On 4/11/2017 9:18 AM, Paulo Canedo wrote:

> That Udo was a son of Hadrien is supported because Hadrien had a
> father Gerold who is probably the same as Gerold father of Hildegarde
> wife of Charlemagne and a Eudes providing onomastic evidence.

It may very well be the case that Gerold father of Hadrien and Gerold
father of Hildegarde were the same man, but we don't have much evidence
for this beyond the fact that they shared the same name. The fact that
men named Voto were related (or apparently related) to both families
adds a little, but is far from making a conclusive case.

Stewart Baldwin

[Peter Stewart]

On 12/04/2017 2:51 AM, Stewart Baldwin wrote:
> On 4/11/2017 9:18 AM, Paulo Canedo wrote:
>

>> That Udo was a son of Hadrien is supported because Hadrien had a
>> father Gerold who is probably the same as Gerold father of Hildegarde
>> wife of Charlemagne and a Eudes providing onomastic evidence.
>

> It may very well be the case that Gerold father of Hadrien and Gerold
> father of Hildegarde were the same man, but we don't have much
> evidence for this beyond the fact that they shared the same name. The
> fact that men named Voto were related (or apparently related) to both
> families adds a little, but is far from making a conclusive case.

Very far - the onomastics brigade are inclined to treat given names as
some kind of supernatural talismans, almost an article of faith. For
instance, in this case Donald Jackman stated that "The affiliation of
Odo with Adrian and Waldrada, while remaining uncertain, can be adhered
to". Like the doctrine of the Trinity, I suppose. The only way I adhere
to genealogical uncertainty is to be careful not to extrapolate
relationships from it. The possible alternative permutations that might
fit the patchy evidence can't all be eliminated in favour of the most
tantalising.

Peter Stewart

[Paulo Canedo]

But there are cases in which onomastics really fits well for example Mathieu's theory of Ebles of Roucy's ancestry.

[Peter Stewart]

On 12/04/2017 7:12 PM, Paulo Canedo wrote:
> But there are cases in which onomastics really fits well for example Mathieu's theory of Ebles of Roucy's ancestry.
>

I'm not saying that onomastics should never be taken into account, but
only that Maurice Chaume and many who adopt his methods are often
deluding themselves.

An example of the objectionable inanity I mean is in Donald Jackman's
bland assurance that the name Eberhard must have passed into the
Conradian lineage from the Unruochings: there is absolutely no evidence
for this transmission or the direction ascribed to it. The first
Eberhard in the Unruoching line was probably a marquis of Barcelona in
the early 9th century, and the first who certainly belonged to the
family was marquis in Friuli in the mid-9th century, the son-in-law of
Louis the Pious. The first Conradian of this name was probably a son of
the later Udo we have been discussing, and was born around the mid-9th
century.

How can we conceivably know that the name Eberhard had not passed from
the Conradians to the Unruochings, or from another family altogether
into both of these independently? We can't, obviously. But since the
onomasticists (to coin an ugly term) label the Unruochings as the chief
possessors of the name Eberhard, for no better reason than the
prominence of the most noted early holder of it, somehow it becomes
orthodoxy to believe that they invented the name or held exclusive
rights over it.

It is nonsense enough to believe that every Eberhard must necessarily be
the descendant of another, but even if they were proved to be so we
can't know where and when their families came by the name unless we have
a definitive record - usually from naming after a maternal grandfather
or perhaps uncle - of its first use in their agnatic line.

Most Germanic names are made up of quite common syllabic elements, and
there is no good reason to believe that these were originally exclusive
to specific bloodlines, rather than taken up across social ranks and
broad swathes of territory as descriptive of hoped-for personal
qualities or otherwise culturally propitious.

We can have no idea how frequent and widespread any name was before the
chance survival of the earliest record of it, and no warrant to suppose
that the family in which it first occurs in this way held a proprietary
lock on it.

Peter Stewart