CP Addition: Cecily Beauchamp's 2nd Turberville marriage
Douglas Richardson
Complete Peerage 2 (1912): 48-50 (sub Beauchamp) includes an account
of the baronial Beauchamp family of Hatch Beauchamp, Somerset. The
senior male line of this family ended in 1361, on the death of John
Beauchamp, 3rd Lord Beauchamp, at which point his lands were divided
between his sister, Cecily, widow of Roger Seymour (then aged 40) and
his nephew, John de Meriet (then aged 15).
In note a on page 50, Complete Peerage states that "the bulk of the
estates seems to have devolved on the 1st sister, Cecily [Beauchamp],
who m., 1stly, Sir Roger Seymour, and 2ndly, before 1383,(_____)
Turberville, having issue by both."
My research indicates that Cecily Beauchamp's 1st husband was Sir
Roger Seymour, of Undy, Monmouthshire, who died testate before 1361.
They had one son, Sir William Seymour, who I find was executor of his
father's will. Sir William Seymour reportedly attended Edward the
Black Prince in Gascony in 1362. Given these facts, it would seem
that Cecily Beauchamp's 1st marriage was clearly to Sir Roger Seymour,
as stated by Complete Peerage.
As far as Cecily Beauchamp's 2nd marriage is concerned, this is much
less certain. Dictionary of Welsh Biography (1959): 988 identifies
Cecily Beauchamp's 2nd husband as Gilbert Turberville, Knt., of Coity
Castle, Glamorganshire, Seneschal of Gascony (died 1349). Such a
marriage is surely chronologically impossible. Elsewhere, however, I
find that J.S. Roskell, House of Commons 1386–1421, 4 (1992): 872–873
(biog. of Sir Robert Turberville) states Cecily Beauchamp married
(2nd) Gilbert Turberville, Knt., of Coity, not Sir Richard
Turberville, of Bere Regis, Dorset, correcting Dorset Vis. Add., ed.
Colby and Rylands, pg. 13.
While I believe that Cecily Beauchamp likely married a Gilbert
Turberville, Knt., of Coity Castle, I suspect that it was Gilbert,
Jr., who married Cecily, not his father. Also, if there was issue of
this marriage as alleged by Complete Peerage, it must have died out
fairly quickly, as Coity Castle soon afterwards passed to the
Berkerolles family. Interestingly, the Turberville and Berkerolles
families are both ancestral to Sir Edward Stradling, husband of Joan
Beaufort.
Hopefully some evidence can be located which will confirm the name of
Cecily Beauchamp's 2nd husband.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
Gryphon801
>My research indicates that Cecily Beauchamp's 1st husband was Sir
>Roger Seymour, of Undy, Monmouthshire, who died testate before 1361.
[snip]
>Given these facts, it would seem
>that Cecily Beauchamp's 1st marriage was clearly to Sir Roger Seymour,
>as stated by Complete Peerage.
This is wrong. Seymour was the 2nd husband.
>While I believe that Cecily Beauchamp likely married a Gilbert
>Turberville, Knt., of Coity Castle, I suspect that it was Gilbert,
>Jr., who married Cecily, not his father.
No, this is also wrong.
Cecily de Beauchamp and her husbands were included by Paul C. Reed, FASG in
"Royal Line I," of the article on the Corderoy/Ironmonger families in TAG 73,
no. 4 (October 1998), page 309, which also included additions to CP on the
Beauchamp family of Hatch (which see).
Sir Gilbert was first husband of Cecily, not second.
Much more on this will also appear in the account of the Seymour family which
will appear in the next few months on the APSG web site.
> Also, if there was issue of
>this marriage as alleged by Complete Peerage, it must have died out
>fairly quickly, as Coity Castle soon afterwards passed to the
>Berkerolles family. Interestingly, the Turberville and Berkerolles
>families are both ancestral to Sir Edward Stradling, husband of Joan
>Beaufort.
This inheritance was discussed in detail on this group by Paul Reed, Brad
Verity, and others, Check the archives for that thread.
Gryphon801
already included these observations in your book (crediting Paul Reed, of
course).
Douglas Richardson
After my initial post yesterday, I did some additional checking on
Cecily de Beauchamp, wife of Roger de Seymour, who is a direct
ancestress of Jane Seymour, wife of the much married King Henry VIII
of England.
In my previous post, I followed Complete Peerage in its statements
that Cecily Beauchamp married (1st) Roger de Seymour (dead before
1361), and (2nd) before 1383 (_____) Turberville [Reference: Complete
Peerage, 2 (1912): 48-50 (sub Beauchamp). Actually, this information
may be in error as to more than one point.
What is certain is that Cecily de Beauchamp was born about 1321/31
(aged 30 or 40 in 1361). She married Roger de Seymour, of Undy,
Monmouthshire, who was living in 1358/9. They had one son and heir,
William.
In 1361, Cecily de Beauchamp was found to be co-heiress to her
brother, Sir John de Beauchamp. At the time of the inquisitions on
her brother's estates, Cecily was variously styled "Cecily de
Beauchamp," "Cecily Turbervyll," and "Cecily de Seymor" [Reference:
Cal. IPMs 11 (1935): 22-26]. From this record, it is clear that
Cecily de Beauchamp's other marriage to _____ Turberville took place
long before 1383, the date suggested by Complete Peerage. Also,
Cecily was listed as aged 30 or 40 in 1361, not just 40 as indicated
by Complete Peerage.
Cecily de Beauchamp's known husband, Roger de Seymour, was dead before
29 Jan. 1365/6 [Reference: Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1364-1367 (1912):
81]. My research indicates that Roger de Seymour died testate. Their
son, William, was the executor of Roger's will. As such, it seems
that William was born no later than 1344. Cecily lived until 1394.
The online PROCAT catalog lists the following two records regarding
Cecily de Beauchamp, she appearing as Cecily Turberville in records
after 1361.
C 143/369/11:
Valentine atte Forde, chaplain, to retain rent in Shepton Beauchamp
acquired from Cecilia Turbervill, together with the reversions of
lands there now held for life respectively by Richard Miles, John
Mower, John Vyncent the younger, Walter Peverel, John Vyncent the
elder, John Brouke, William Brute, Nicholas Fort, and Benedict
Chepman.
Date: 43 EDWARD III.
C 143/375/9:
Valentine atte Forde, chaplain, to retain rent charged on a mill and
land in Shepton Beauchamp, held for life respectively by Richard
Miles, John Mower, John Vyncent the younger, Walter Peverel, John
Vincent the elder, John Brouke, William Grute, Nicholas Fort, and
Benet Chipman, with the reversions of the said mill and land, granted
to him for life by Cecily Turbervill.
Date: 45 EDWARD III.
So when was Cecily de Beauchamp's Turberville marriage? According to
Complete Peerage, the marriage took place before 1383. Other sources
such as Dictionary of Welsh Biography, Bartrum, and Roskell state that
Cecily married Gilbert IV de Turberville (died 1349), of Coity Castle,
Glamorgan. If so, it would seem to Cecily de Beauchamp married (1st)
Gilbert IV de Turberville sometime before 1349. But did Cecily really
marry Gilbert IV de Turberville?
My research indicates that Gilbert IV de Turberville was born say
1300/5. As such, he was considerably older than Cecily de Beauchamp.
He allegedly succeeded his father, Pain III de Turberville, in the
family estates about 1318. In 1327 he petitioned the king for the
restoration of certain tenements at Llanhary and the land of Comtyok
called "La Niwelonde" in Glamorgan [Reference: Cal. Inqs. Misc. 2
(1916): 235-236; T.B. Pugh, Glamorgan County History 3 (1971): 174].
In 1331, on appeal to the king, he obtained the appointment of a
commission to deal with his claim to Landimore manor [Reference: T.B.
Pugh Glamorgan County History 3 (1971): 247]. In 1335 he conceded his
claim to Landimore to Robert de Penres [Reference: W. Rees, Cal.of
Ancient Petitions rel. to Wales (Board of Celtic Studies, Hist. & Law
Ser. 28) (1975): 500-501].
Dictionary of Welsh Biography provides additional information about
Gilbert IV de Turberville:
"GILBERT IV, son of Payn III, succeeded. He married Cicely, daughter
of John, lord Beauchamp of Hache. He recovered the Gower property at
Llandymôr in 1336, and was present at the siege of Calais in 1346. In
1337 he was granted the wardship of the royal castle of Cardigan and
the seneschalship of the county for life. He apparently died in 1349.
Gilbert V, son of the last named, succeeded, but very little is known
of him. He apparently died without issue, and the property reverted
to Richard II, son of Payn III, who also died without issue and
probably unmarried."
The above information indicates that Gilbert IV de Turberville was
"present at siege of Calais in 1346" and "apparently" died in 1349.
While the first part of this statement may be true, the second
statement about his death in 1349 is possibly erroneous. In any case,
if Gilbert IV de Turberville lived as late as 1346 as alleged by DWB,
it is almost impossible for him to have married Cecily de Beauchamp,
who as we see above was almost certainly married to Roger de Seymour
in or before 1344.
With regard to Gilbert IV's son and heir, Gilbert V de Turberville, he
did exist. Bartrum claims that Cecily de Beauchamp was the mother of
Gilbert V. An inquisition post mortem exists for Gilbert V's estates
and it indicates that he died without issue 17 Jan. 1349. If correct,
it would seem that it was Gilbert V de Turberville who died in 1349,
not his father, Gilbert IV (thus correcting Dictionary of Welsh
Biography and Peter Bartrum). While Gilbert V de Turberville was
evidently the same approximate age as Cecily de Beauchamp, he clearly
survived until 1349, thus precluding him as a candidate to be Cecily
de Beauchamp's Turberville husband.
So, which Turberville man married Cecily de Beauchamp? If I read the
above records correctly, it seems evident that Gilbert IV de
Turberville was active until at least 1337. If so, it is possible
that he married Cecily de Beauchamp in this time period as a younger
second wife. Cecily was born as early as 1321, and thus would have
been 16 or younger in 1337. If Gilbert IV married Cecily, however, he
could not be the Gilbert de Turberville at the siege of Calais in
1346, as Cecily was already married to Roger de Seymour by that date.
Rather, the Gilbert de Turberville at the siege of Calais would
necessarily be Gilbert IV's son and heir, Gilbert V de Turberville.
If true, then Gilbert V was surely was not a son of Cecily de
Beauchamp as claimed by Bartrum. At best, he could only be her
step-son.
So, corrections abound and questions remain. This matter deserves
further study.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
royala...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson) wrote in message news:<5cf47a19.04041...@posting.google.com>...
> Dear Everyone ~
>
> Complete Peerage 2 (1912): 48-50 (sub Beauchamp) includes an account
> of the baronial Beauchamp family of Hatch Beauchamp, Somerset. The
> senior male line of this family ended in 1361, on the death of John
> Beauchamp, 3rd Lord Beauchamp, at which point his lands were divided
> between his sister, Cecily, widow of Roger Seymour (then aged 40) and
> his nephew, John de Meriet (then aged 15).
>
> In note a on page 50, Complete Peerage states that "the bulk of the
> estates seems to have devolved on the 1st sister, Cecily [de Beauchamp],
> who m., 1stly, Sir Roger Seymour, and 2ndly, before 1383,(_____)
> Turberville, having issue by both."
>
> My research indicates that Cecily de Beauchamp's 1st husband was Sir
> Roger Seymour, of Undy, Monmouthshire, who died testate before 1361.
> They had one son, Sir William Seymour, who I find was executor of his
> father's will. Sir William Seymour reportedly attended Edward the
> Black Prince in Gascony in 1362. Given these facts, it would seem
> that Cecily Beauchamp's 1st marriage was clearly to Sir Roger Seymour,
> as stated by Complete Peerage.
>
> As far as Cecily de Beauchamp's 2nd marriage is concerned, this is much
> less certain. Dictionary of Welsh Biography (1959): 988 identifies
> Cecily de Beauchamp's 2nd husband as Gilbert Turberville, Knt., of Coity
> Castle, Glamorganshire, Seneschal of Gascony (died 1349). Such a
> marriage is surely chronologically impossible. Elsewhere, however, I
> find that J.S. Roskell, House of Commons 1386?1421, 4 (1992): 872?873
> (biog. of Sir Robert Turberville) states Cecily Beauchamp married
> (2nd) Gilbert Turberville, Knt., of Coity, not Sir Richard
> Turberville, of Bere Regis, Dorset, correcting Dorset Vis. Add., ed.
> Colby and Rylands, pg. 13.
>
> While I believe that Cecily de Beauchamp likely married a Gilbert
Reedpcgen
>further study.
Dear Doug,
Thank you for your good post, ignoring what was recently posted pointing you to
my article. I've checked all that you've just posted and much more (including
many things not available at Salt Lake City).
If you will kindly order PRO Ministers' and Receivers' Accounts, S.C. 6/1,
202/15 [Gower Lordship, 23 Rich. II to Hen. IV] and check the section
concerning Llandimore and Knytehull, it will resolve your conundrum, once you
make out the Latin.
As the color copy supplied me is copyrighted, I cannot scan it without
permission (I kept it on my wall for the longest time, because it as an unusual
source and very difficult to find).
The discovery of this evidence was so important I begged the editor of TAG to
make room for it so it could be included in the article in TAG and get into
print, though there was not space to discuss other things.
Far be it for you to ignore direct evidence I put forward and collegially bury
your head in the sand.
Best wishes,
Paul C. Reed, Salt Lake City
Reedpcgen
The dower assigned to Elizabeth, widow of Thomas, Duke of Norfolk, in the
lordship of Gower 6 July 1400 included Kittlehill (the manor bringing in 78s. 7
1/2d.) and Llandimore, "a third part of the manor, being the ancient dower of
Cecily de Turbervile". This helped lead me to the record I mentioned in the
previous post. An account from local officials in 1400 concerning lands that
had passed into the King's hands during the minority of Thomas Mowbray, heir of
the late Duke of Norfolk, found that rents in Roselly [Rhossili] had been
"coming into the hands of the Lord from the dower of Lady Cicely de St. Maur,
who was the wife of Sir Gilbert Turberville, for the manors of Landymore,
Knythull [Kitehill] and Roselly".
As to the younger Gilbert, who was at Calais, and too old to be sone by Cecily,
since the inquisition specifically calls him, "Gilbert, son of Gilbert de
Turbervill," he was not Gilbert the son of Pain. He died Friday after St.
Hilary 22 Edward III [16 Jan. 1348/9]. His heir was his uncle, Richard de
Turbulvile, aged thirty or more [b. by 1318]. Gilbert held two parts of the
manor of "Koytyff and la Niwelond," two parts of the manor of Newcastle, two
parts of the manor of Lanhari, and land in Koyechirch [the other third must
have been held by Cecily in dower, as she lived long afterwards, and it was
stated to be her dower, above].
Since William de Seymour was acting as his father's executor 29 January 1365,
but his father was probably dead by 1361, it would seem most likely that
William was born about 1344. Sir Riger's elder brother John Seymour was father
of a son named Roger born ca. 1340/1. Since the elder Gilbert was Cecily's
husband, one would conlcude he had to be dead by 1344.
Paul
Douglas Richardson
The correct reference to the assignment of Elizabeth Mowbray's dower
is apparently SC 6/1202/15, not S.C. 6/1, 202/15. A brief description
of this item is found in the online PROCAT catalog
(http://catalogue.pro.gov.uk):
"Gower Lordship (Lands late of Thomas Duke of Norfolk, held by the
King during the minority of Thomas, his son and heir): [Glamorgan]
Swansea: [Glamorgan] "Anglissheria": [Glamorgan] "Gallischeria":
[Glamorgan] Bruz Park: [Glamorgan] Kilvey: [Glamorgan] Pennard:
[Glamorgan] Lunon: [Glamorgan] Knytehull: [Glamorgan] Llandimore:
[Glamorgan] Oystermouth: [Glamorgan] Loughor: [Glamorgan] Trewidua:
[Glamorgan] Gower Forest: [Glamorgan] Kilvey (coal mines): [Glamorgan]
Description of Officer: Divers Ministers. Date: 23 Ric II to 1 Hen
IV." END OF QUOTE.
As to Gilbert IV de Turberville's death date, I believe it would be a
relatively easy matter to determine when he died. Dictionary of Welsh
Biography indicates that he was granted the wardship of the royal
castle of Cardigan and the seneschalship of the county for life in
1337 [Reference: D.W.B. (1959): 988]. Since this was a lifetime
grant, one has only to find the appointment of next constable of
Cardigan Castle and seneschal of the county to determine approximately
when Gilbert died.
The question of Cecily de Beauchamp's mysterious Turberville marriage
reveals once again how many standard sources contain serious errors
about prominent people of the medieval period. The moral of the story
is always check standard sources against original contemporary records
when and if possible.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
reed...@aol.com (Reedpcgen) wrote in message news:<20040416034758...@mb-m11.aol.com>...
Douglas Richardson
For those of you who are descended from the Turberville family of
Wales, I might direct you to an interesting website featuring pictures
of Coity Castle, former home of the Turberville family.
http://www.castlewales.com/coity.html
Now greatly ruined, the remains of the castle are still quite
impressive.
The Turberville family is ancestral to Sir Edward Stradling (husband
of Joan Beaufort).
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
royala...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson) wrote in message news:<5cf47a19.04041...@posting.google.com>...
Reedpcgen
>As to Gilbert IV de Turberville's death date, I believe it would be a
>relatively easy matter to determine when he died.
Good. You go for it.
I know he was dead before the constableship of Cardigan was regranted, but that
only provides an endpoint for his death. He was definitely dead by 21
September 1347, when Edward, Prince of Wales, granted "for life to his yeoman,
Roland Daneys, the bailiwick of the constableship of the castle of Cardigan ...
with all profits ... such as Sir Gilbert Turbelvile ... received on account of
these offices...."
Gilbert had received a final grant dated 14 August 1337 that in lieu of the
£40, he was to have £20 of the farm of the town of Cardigan and £20 of the farm
of the town of Lamparden, in South Wales, "for his life." He was definitely
then in favored circles, and witnessed a charter of Hugh le Despenser, lord of
Glamorgan, on 17 August 11 Edward III [1337]. "Domino" Gilbert de Turbirvill'
was a witness to a grant by William of St. Donat's, Abbot of Neath, on 20
October 1341.
You have charged into this Cecily Beauchamp/Tuberville things with quite a
number of assumptions, posting what seemed an announcement of a CP correction.
In fact, as pointed out by gryphon801, a number of your original assumptions
were false. You seemed totally unaware of the material in TAG, One would have
assumed that you would be entirely familiar with all the medieval material in
TAG.
After being brought closer to the truth, you have adjusted your position
without comment, as you usually do, without knowing the depth of research
others have gone into, and continuing to assume that if it is NEW to you, it
must be new to everyone else. That is fallacious, and always astounds me, yet
you have continued to do it year after year, even if using a source that is a
hundred years old.
Paul
Reedpcgen
back in 1997-98), I must correct myself.
Sir Gilbert de Turberville was alive and steward of Cardigan on 6 March 1347.
It is also ordered, on 14 March 1347, that the Prince's clerk and Chamberlain
of South Wales was to pay Sir Gilbert the fees and yearly wages of his office,
as Sir Gilbert de Turbervill was granted for life, by the king's grant, by
letters patent ratified by the Prince, the keeping of the castle and town of
Cardigan and commote of Iscoyt and Ishirewere, and the stewardship of
Cardyganshire, with the accustomed fees and wages.
On 29 August 1347, it is stated that Sir Gilbert Turbervill "is dead," and the
Prince's Chamberlain was ordered to seize the castle, town, etc., and to make
inquisition as to his lands and heir.
I have not seen the inquisition, which should state when Sir Gilbert died.
Paul
Reedpcgen
Also, as the siege of Calais lasted until August 1347, it would be most likely
that Sir Gilbert DID serve in the campaign, which lasted a year. His son,
'Gilbert son of Gilbert,' was not styled knight in the IPM which looked into
his holdings, which IPM stated he died 16 Jan. 1348/9 (or in the Fine Rolls
entries). As he held the 2/3 of Sir Gilbert's lands that was not the 1/3 held
by Cecily in dower, he was definitely not Cecily's husband, which is confirmed
by the Ministers' Account I referred to before.
Though CPR Edw. III, 1364-7, 13(London, 1912):81 calls William Seymour his
father's executor on William was acting as his father's executor 29 January
1365, and he was recorded as William "de Sancto Mauro" held one fee in the
Netherwent which became part of the inheritance of the Countess of Warenne and
half a fee which became part of the inheritance of "the heirs of Ferrers" in
the partition of the inheritance of Walter Marshal, Earl of Pembroke, on 8 July
1366," it is likely he was at least sixteen, and that his mother Cecily married
Roger Seymour not long after Sir Gilbert Turberville's death in August 1347.
On 29 January 1365, Sir Thomas Moreaus was pardoned of his outlawry for
non-appearance to answer William Seymour, executor of the will of Roger
Seymour, for not rendering Ł42 Moreaus apparently owed the estate. The other
possibility is that Roger Seymour had a brother named WIlliam.
"William de Sancto Mauro holds a moiety of a knight's fee in Wondi" according
to an inquisition dated 18 May 8 Edw. III [1334]. CIPM Edw. III, 7(London,
1909):409 (no. 600). William de Sancto Mauro [St. Maur] was also one of three
free tenants listed as holding by knight's fee at Magor in the inquisition post
mortem of Thomas de Rodebergh on 18 May 1334. Robert de Gamages was one of the
other free tenants. Welsh pedigrees record that Gilbert Gamage (d. 1382)
married Letis, daughter of Sir William [sic] Seymour of Pen-hw [Penho], and
that Lettis's son, William Gamage of Coety [heir of the Turberville honor] (d.
1419), who m. Mary, da. of Sir Thomas Rodborough, was father of Thomas Gamage
(b. ca. 1408) (Bartrum, [Gamage]).
As to the elder brother of Roger Seymour [and WIlliam?], John "de Seintmor"
died Tuesday before St. Marks 32 Edw. III [24 April 1358], "in the pestilence
now past," leaving a son and heir (by his wife, Elizabeth, who survived him),
Roger, aged eighteen [aged twenty on 20 July 34 Edw. III].
It may therefore be that the William Seymour who was executor to Roger was an
adult brother, which I had wondered before, and noted in the text of the
Seymour material yet to be presented.
Paul
Reedpcgen
>father's executor on William was acting as his father's executor 29 January
>1365
I should have reworded that. I have to check the original on that again to see
if it merely states that William Seymour was executor of Roger, or if it states
that WIlliam, son of Roger, was executor.
Paul