D'Arcy of Normandie, England and Ireland
Michael O'Hearn
being William de Areci who (later?) became a monk at Fécamp, their son being
Norman D'Arcy.
The following is from the Rootsweb Clare List archives (July 4, 2006):
The genealogy of the Darcies of Clonuane in the county of Clare, and
Kiltolla in the county of Galway : descended from the ancient and honourable
family of the Darcies of Platten in the county of Meath, near the river
Boyne, which descended from Sir John Darcy, who after being twice Lord
Justice and General Governor of Ireland, was the third time constituted for
life, in the year 1334, he descended from Sir Richard Darcy, who accompanied
King William the Conqueror from Normandy into England in the year 1066, he
descended from David, who was the first surnamed D'Arcy or Darcy and
descended from Charlemagne or Charles the Great, King of France and emperor
of the Romans.
The family moved to Ireland when Sir John Darcy was sent as in the 1320s
and, in 1334, "... was constituted for life in that eminent post of trust."
(p. 10). He had already spent time as the British governor of Scotland. Sir
John married twice; the D'Arcy family of England descends from him via his
first wife, that of Ireland via the second wife.
I don't have any line of descent from Sir Richard to Sir John. Any ideas?
--
Michael O'Hearn
taf
wrote:
> The derivation is Richard II of Normandie and Judith de Bretagne, their son
> being William de Areci who (later?) became a monk at Fécamp, their son being
> Norman D'Arcy.
It looks like the Darcy historian had a whimsical streak when he came
to inventing this derivation from a monk, but invent it he did.
taf
WJho...@aol.com
michae...@gmail.com writes:
> I don't have any line of descent from Sir Richard to Sir John. Any
> ideas?
>
It's a load of nonsense, every word of it.
Alex Maxwell Findlater
> I don't have any line of descent from Sir Richard to Sir John. Any ideas?
>
You could do worse than starting with the rather long article in CP on
Lord Darcy. The Duke of Buckingham (Steenie) was descended from the
Darcies.
Michael O'Hearn
Ireland is the best attested as being descended from the D'Arcys of
Lincolnshire who settled there *temp* William I from Normandy. About a
decade after the Battle of Hastings in 1066, a dispute arose between
William's half-brother Odo of Bayeux and and Lanfranc, Archbishop of
Canterbury, regardinf Church property confiscated by earl Godwine in the
reign of Edward the Confessor, settled at the trial of Penden Heath
*circa *1072.Among
those present at the trial was william de Arsic. Apparently he had a son
Manasser de Arsic. of Cogges, Witney, Oxfordshire. These are likely of the
same Norman lineage as the D'Arcys who settled in County Meath mentioned
above.
The results of the Dorsey Y-DNA Project show that of the ten separate
lineages found, eight and all of the unmatched in Ireland are of the R1b
haplogroup common the western Europe. The African-American Dorseys have
results of E1b1a. The D'Arcys of Platten, Westmeath and their colonial
American cousins all have E1b1b1, which originates in North Africa and is
common among Jews, with an estimated 18%-20% of male Ashkenazi Jews and
8.6%-30% of male Sephardic Jews worldwide belonging to this group.
It has been said that in about 1170, King John remitted to Thomas D'Arcy a
debt of 225 marks "which he then owed to the Jews". Based upon the Y-DNA
results above, it is probable that Thomas D'Arcy's paternal lineage in
Normandie goes back to these very Jews although Thomas came from a Christian
family.
My Dorsey/Darcy ancestors were from County Kildare in Leinster, Ireland and
probably are of the same lineage as the D'Arcys of Plattyn although they may
be of another branch from England since D'Arcys have been found in Dublin
predating the Plattyn branch..
--
Michael O'Hearn
Wjhonson
I agree if "best attested" means "completely made up based on no documentary evidence whatsoever."
*circa *1072.Among
above.
family.
predating the Plattyn branch..
--
Michael O'Hearn
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com
with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
the message
Michael O'Hearn
knowledge. Anything better attested for Darcys pf Normandie lineage in
England and Ireland than those descended from William D'Arcy whose father
was John D'Arcy of Crécy fame? Or is that one more of your wild imaginings?
--
Michael O'Hearn
Wjhonson
There is no documentary evidence whatsoever for anybody named in your postings
Do you just sit in a corner making up wild ravings of nonsense all day long?
Doesn't it occur to you to at least read a book once in a while, or do you get all your genealogy from nutcases posting to forums?
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael O'Hearn <michae...@gmail.com>
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Thu, Feb 17, 2011 5:42 pm
Subject: D'Arcy of Normandie, England and Ireland
--
Michael O'Hearn
-------------------------------
Michael O'Hearn
start there and look up John D'Arcy at the battle of Crécy and his son
William D'Arcy of Plattyn, Westmeath. Only nut cases like that Danish chap
would not consider this to be well attested.
--
Michael O'Hearn
Wjhonson
Uh Crecy took place in 1346. You're almost 300 years past the Norman invasion here bub.
No one is disputing that there were people named Darcy. Only that the antiquity you want to give them is utter nonsense.
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael O'Hearn <michae...@gmail.com>
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Thu, Feb 17, 2011 5:57 pm
Subject: D'Arcy of Normandie, England and Ireland
--
Michael O'Hearn
-------------------------------
Michael O'Hearn
They didn't arrive in Ireland until the 14th century as I have already
stated. You still haven't answered whether there are any better attested
Darcy families of Anglo=Norman descent than those of Plattyn, Westmeath.
--
Michael O'Hearn
Wjhonson
You can't be worse attested... when you are NOT attested at all.
Can you grasp this idea? The connection you are trying to draw is not attested. Nothing. Zero. Nada. Not present.
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael O'Hearn <michae...@gmail.com>
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Thu, Feb 17, 2011 7:22 pm
Subject: D'Arcy of Normandie, England and Ireland
Well duh?
--
Michael O'Hearn
-------------------------------
taf
> It has been said that in about 1170, King John remitted to Thomas D'Arcy a
> debt of 225 marks "which he then owed to the Jews". Based upon the Y-DNA
> results above, it is probable that Thomas D'Arcy's paternal lineage in
> Normandie goes back to these very Jews although Thomas came from a Christian
> family.
Or maybe that Thomas' wife was a bit to friendly with his bankers.
You need to be a little careful here. Just because a given DNA type
is common among Jews doesn't mean that the person who had it must have
been a Jew. You could have a Samaritan or Carthaginian that arrived
in Gaul with one of the Legions.
taf
Michael O'Hearn
Historically, De Areci/ D'Arcy families were in England *temp* William I who
granted extensive estate, no less than thirty three lordships in
Lincolnshire.
It is also the case that William D'Arcy of Plattyn, Westmeath was a son of
John D'Arcy, a descendant of the D'Arcy barons of Nocton, Lincolnshire,
dating back to the time of the Norman Conquest.
The Plattyn Darcys have Y-DNA results that are atypical for Western
Europeans, and are consistent with a Jewish origin. Thomas D'Arcy owed
money to the Jews of England as mentioned previously.
It has been suggested that Areci or Arcy, from which the surname derives,
was a place in Normandie. The possibility of Arques in Normandie has been
suggested, and Norman D'Arcy as a son of William d'Arques who was a son of
Richard II of Normandie and who became a monk. I only mentioned that in the
form of a question, not as a definitive answer to a question. In any case,
this derivation is unlikely insofar as Richard II was of Scandinavian origin
descending from Rögnwald who was definitely not Jewish.
Another possibility is Orsay, a suburb outside Paris established as a town
in 999 AD, now the location of the Musée D'Orsay. The name Dorsey/Darcy is
suggested to be derived from a place called Orsiacum from Arsiacum, Latin
from Gaulish *ars *meaning 'bear' plus *cum* meaning 'place'. This location
would be consistent with a Jewish origin for D'Arcy families.
--
Michael O'Hearn
taf
> The Plattyn Darcys have Y-DNA results that are atypical for Western
> Europeans, and are consistent with a Jewish origin. Thomas D'Arcy owed
> money to the Jews of England as mentioned previously.
It is also consistent with a non-Jewish origin, and most of the major
nobility of England owed money 'to the Jews of England' at one time or
another.
> It has been suggested that Areci or Arcy, from which the surname derives,
> was a place in Normandie. The possibility of Arques in Normandie has been
> suggested, and Norman D'Arcy as a son of William d'Arques who was a son of
> Richard II of Normandie and who became a monk. I only mentioned that in the
> form of a question, not as a definitive answer to a question. In any case,
> this derivation is unlikely insofar as Richard II was of Scandinavian origin
> descending from Rögnwald who was definitely not Jewish.
This so-called "Norman d'Arcy, son of William d'Arques' is a complete
fiction, so any speculation of what is and is not possible based on
him is pointless and misplaced. Further, not everyone with a
haplotype of E1b1b was Jewish, and you have no evidence that the
family with this haplotaype had anything to do with the Thomas who
owed money.
> Another possibility is Orsay, a suburb outside Paris established as a town
> in 999 AD, now the location of the Musée D'Orsay.
How many Parisians accompanied the Norman conquest?
> The name Dorsey/Darcy is
> suggested to be derived from a place called Orsiacum from Arsiacum, Latin
> from Gaulish *ars *meaning 'bear' plus *cum* meaning 'place'. This location
> would be consistent with a Jewish origin for D'Arcy families.
And is everyone from Bearne also Jewish? There is absolutely nothing
about a Paris suburb that would suggest the slightest relationship to
Jewish origin. You are looking for patterns where there are none.
taf
Michael O'Hearn
Obviously, but we know the the percentages of this type among Jew as stated
previously...
>>and most of the major
nobility of England owed money 'to the Jews of England' at one time or
another.
We know that Jews were in England at the same time D'Arcy/D'Areci is
recorded in England.
My intention is not to prove with 100% certainty that D'arcy descends from
Jews. Just saying that that is a reasonable assumption.
>>This so-called "Norman d'Arcy, son of William d'Arques' is a complete
fiction, so any speculation of what is and is not possible based on
him is pointless and misplaced.
Why do say that. It has been suggested. I only mention it to find out
whether it is true or false.
>>Further, not everyone with a
haplotype of E1b1b was Jewish,
Any evidence of a non-Jewish ethnic minority with this haplotype common in
England at that time?
>>and you have no evidence that the
family with this haplotaype had anything to do with the Thomas who
owed money.
It demonstrates that Jews were in contact with D'Arcy at that time. Is
there any evidence whatsoever that any other non-Jewish group with that
exact haplotype in England at that time?
>>How many Parisians accompanied the Norman conquest?
The family may have already been living in England, or may have arrived from
Normandy having settled there fro the region of Paris. That wold be
consistent with itinerant Jews. Don't misquote me by insinuating that this
in any way proves that they were Jews, just that it is consistent with a
Jewish origin which would agree with their DNA results, unless of course
you can demonstrate another *reasonable *explanation for the DNA results,
which so far you have not been able to do.
>>And is everyone from Bearne also Jewish?
Sorry if you assumed that I had suggested that everyone in Paris is Jewish?
Is there a place in Bearne called Arcy of Orsay?
>>There is absolutely nothing
about a Paris suburb that would suggest the slightest relationship to
Jewish origin. You are looking for patterns where there are none.
Sorry if you misintrepreted what I said. Where did I say that a suburb of
Paris has a Jewish origin? What I did say is that this location is
consistent with a Jewish origin of D'Arcy families. Can you provide
evidence for another ethnic origin consistent with the Y-DNA haplogroup? My
point is not to prove that they were of Jewish origin, just that tis is a
reasonable assumption, which a non-Jewish origin would not be unless you can
come up with *evidence* in support of a non-Jewish origin.
--
Michael O'Hearn
WJho...@aol.com
michae...@gmail.com writes:
> If we don't ask questions, we never arrive at the right answers.ars
You're not "asking" you're "telling". Quite a distinction.
>
> Historically, De Areci/ D'Arcy families were in England *temp* William I
> who
> granted extensive estate, no less than thirty three lordships in
> Lincolnshire.
Historically you are making this up, there is no documentation supporting
this whatsoever.
>
> It is also the case that William D'Arcy of Plattyn, Westmeath was a son of
> John D'Arcy, a descendant of the D'Arcy barons of Nocton, Lincolnshire,
> dating back to the time of the Norman Conquest.
You could cite a document here if you want anyone other than yourself to
believe this.
>
> The Plattyn Darcys have Y-DNA results that are atypical for Western
> Europeans, and are consistent with a Jewish origin. Thomas D'Arcy owed
> money to the Jews of England as mentioned previously.
A Jew owing money to a Jew is not likely to be remarked upon at all.
And certainly not as "owing money to the Jews" since this would make no
sense.
>
> It has been suggested that Areci or Arcy, from which the surname derives,
> was a place in Normandie. The possibility of Arques in Normandie has been
> suggested, and Norman D'Arcy as a son of William d'Arques who was a son of
> Richard II of Normandie and who became a monk. I only mentioned that in
> the
> form of a question, not as a definitive answer to a question. In any
> case,
> this derivation is unlikely insofar as Richard II was of Scandinavian
> origin
> descending from Rögnwald who was definitely not Jewish.
I'm suggesting it was a place in Japan, and that he was Japanese.
Rognwald was certainly Jewish. Rognwald meaning "red headed monster" in
Hebrew....
That is if I were inclined to make up fantasies as silly as yours.
>
> Another possibility is Orsay, a suburb outside Paris established as a town
> in 999 AD, now the location of the Musée D'Orsay. The name Dorsey/Darcy
> is
> suggested to be derived from a place called Orsiacum from Arsiacum, Latin
> from Gaulish *ars *meaning 'bear' plus *cum* meaning 'place'. This
> location
> would be consistent with a Jewish origin for D'Arcy families.
>
Another possibility is that you are smoking too much stinky weed and trying
to connect the Bear, Ursa Major, well known to Templar / Mason / Grail
nutcases to your family. "Latin from Gaulish".... please.
taf
wrote:
> >>It is also consistent with a non-Jewish origin,. . .
>
> Obviously, but we know the the percentages of this type among Jew as stated
> previously...
It is also highly represented among Berbers. That doesn't make Adolf
Hitler, another E1b1b, a Berber.
> >>and most of the major
>
> nobility of England owed money 'to the Jews of England' at one time or
> another.
>
> We know that Jews were in England at the same time D'Arcy/D'Areci is
> recorded in England.
Just take a step back and see what you are doing. The Percy's were in
England at this time. The FitzAlans were in England at this time.
Being in the same country as the people to whom you owe money doesn't
make you any more likely to be one of them.
> My intention is not to prove with 100% certainty that D'arcy descends from
> Jews. Just saying that that is a reasonable assumption.
But it isn't a reasonable assumption. A haplotype that is found
everywhere from the Sahara to Austria and a debt to the most common
moneylenders in the country? No.
> >>This so-called "Norman d'Arcy, son of William d'Arques' is a complete
> fiction, so any speculation of what is and is not possible based on
> him is pointless and misplaced.
>
> Why do say that. It has been suggested. I only mention it to find out
> whether it is true or false.
I say it to try to get across to you that your efforts here are a
complete waste of your time and efforts. You had already been told it
is false, and yet you persist. It is completely untrue, invented
('suggested') by someone with more imagination than integrity. The
question is not 'why would I say that this is a nonproductive
avenue'. The question is why you still pursue this fiction?
>
> >>Further, not everyone with a
>
> haplotype of E1b1b was Jewish,
>
> Any evidence of a non-Jewish ethnic minority with this haplotype common in
> England at that time?
There is no evidence on ANYONE in England having this haplotype at
this time, Jewish or not.
> >>and you have no evidence that the
> family with this haplotaype had anything to do with the Thomas who
> owed money.
>
> It demonstrates that Jews were in contact with D'Arcy at that time. Is
> there any evidence whatsoever that any other non-Jewish group with that
> exact haplotype in England at that time?
Again, you are begging the question.
>
> >>How many Parisians accompanied the Norman conquest?
>
> The family may have already been living in England, or may have arrived from
> Normandy having settled there fro the region of Paris. That wold be
> consistent with itinerant Jews. Don't misquote me by insinuating that this
> in any way proves that they were Jews, just that it is consistent with a
> Jewish origin which would agree with their DNA results, unless of course
> you can demonstrate another *reasonable *explanation for the DNA results,
> which so far you have not been able to do.
Don't really understand how this DNA stuff works, do you? There are
very few haplotypes that are exclusive to a single population, and
E1b1b isn't one of them. The closely related E1b1a is most common in
West Africa. Does that make all of them Jews too?
How did it get there? It could have come with Phoenecian traders. It
could have come with a Middle-Easterner in one of the Roman Legions.
It could have come via a slave captured by one of the Viking Iberian
raids and sold in Ireland or England. It could have come via any of
the numerous ways that haplotypes have dispersed over the 10000 years
since they originated. Thomas Jefferson also has a 'Middle-Eastern'
haplotype, does this mean that his ancestors also must have borrowed
money from Jews?
> >>And is everyone from Bearne also Jewish?
>
> Sorry if you assumed that I had suggested that everyone in Paris is Jewish?
>
> Is there a place in Bearne called Arcy of Orsay?
You derived Orsay from 'bear', as if that was somehow significant to
being Jewish
> >>There is absolutely nothing
>
> about a Paris suburb that would suggest the slightest relationship to
> Jewish origin. You are looking for patterns where there are none.
>
> Sorry if you misintrepreted what I said. Where did I say that a suburb of
> Paris has a Jewish origin? What I did say is that this location is
> consistent with a Jewish origin of D'Arcy families.
What you didn't provide was the slightest reason why this would be the
case. It is a complete non sequitur. "Their name sonds similar to a
suburb of Paris which is called the 'bear place'. This is consistent
with them being Jews." Say what? Jews are more likely to live in a
Paris suburb if its name refers to bears?
> Can you provide
> evidence for another ethnic origin consistent with the Y-DNA haplogroup? My
> point is not to prove that they were of Jewish origin, just that tis is a
> reasonable assumption, which a non-Jewish origin would not be unless you can
> come up with *evidence* in support of a non-Jewish origin.
This is turning Holmes on his head - no matter how tenuous, even
ridiculous, a chain of speculation might be, it can be assumed to be
true unless someone else produces proof that it is false? There is a
reason that you have to jump to these conclusions - because you
haven't the evidence. Do not shift that burden on me. You have an
Irish family with an Anglo-Norman surname and a haplotype that is
modal in North Africa and the Middle East. That is all you have, and
any attempt to turn this into assumptions about genealogy is woefully
misplaced.
taf
Michael O'Hearn
representing almost exactly the same population originating in North Africa,
East Africa and the Near East. Scientific estimates place E1b1b out of
Africa over the Sinai peninsula and into Europe by the late Pleistocene
roughly 10,000 BC, corresponding with Neolithic agricultural expansion.
This is of course well before the Hebrew Exodus from Egypt into the Promised
Land.
Having low frequency in Europe, this type is more common among populations
of the Balkans and of the Mediterranean area.
The Darcys of Hyde Park, Platten, Westmeath who share this Y-DNA type may
therefore be, as something worth looking at but not as a definitive
statement of fact, of Mediterranean descent, e.g. Romano-Gaulish, as well as
possibly being descended from Jewish converts to the true Christian faith.
--
Michael O'Hearn
WJho...@aol.com
michae...@gmail.com writes:
> Having low frequency in Europe, this type is more common among
> populations
> of the Balkans and of the Mediterranean area.
>
> The Darcys of Hyde Park, Platten, Westmeath who share this Y-DNA type may
> therefore be, as something worth looking at but not as a definitive
> statement of fact, of Mediterranean descent, e.g. Romano-Gaulish, as well
> as
> possibly being descended from Jewish converts to the true Christian faith.
>
So "of the Balkans and of the Mediterranean area" becomes in some bizarro
world "possibly being descended from Jewish converts to the true christian
faith."
Leaving aside the eyebrow raising use of the word "true" here, what
indication does any of this have to being Jewish? Even possibly. Or even to the
point of raising the point? Even remotely?
Why can't they be Phoenician or Phrygian or Albanian or Carthaginian or
Alexandrian or Nabatean or Edomian or Tyrian.....
Do the Jews have some kind of DNA stranglehold on the balkans and the
mediterranean in general ?
ADRIANCH...@aol.com
article in "The Irish Genealogist" Vol. 6, No 4 (Nov 1983) p 403 et. seq.
by Stephen Barnwell where he discussess the origins of the Darcy family of
Platten, co Meath (not Westmeath). It is probably they were from
Lincolnshire, but not 100% proved. (Incidentally there was also a Darcy family of
Co Galway but with Gaelic origins. O Dorchaidhe, - descendant of the dark
man)
Adrian
In a message dated 18/02/2011 15:40:51 GMT Standard Time,
michae...@gmail.com writes:
<SNIP>
taf
wrote:
> The particular haplogroup E1b1b1 is the predominant subclade as E1b1b
> representing almost exactly the same population originating in North Africa,
> East Africa and the Near East. Scientific estimates place E1b1b out of
> Africa over the Sinai peninsula and into Europe by the late Pleistocene
> roughly 10,000 BC, corresponding with Neolithic agricultural expansion.
> This is of course well before the Hebrew Exodus from Egypt into the Promised
> Land.
Forget about the Hebrew Exodus, this haplotype was around before there
were Hebrew speakers or Jews, PERIOD. It is well before there were,
cities, societies or anything much more elaborate than the most
animist of religions. This haplotype, with others, would have existed
among the broader population from which this socio-cultural group
arose, and it prevalence in modern Jewish population presumably
represents a combination of successive founder effects and drift.
That means you can have people with this haplotype who were never
Jewish and do not descend in the male line from a single Jewish
ancestor. Yes, someone with this haplotype is of 'Mediterranean'
descent, 10,000 years ago, but that is no distinction - the latest ice
age drove all Europeans into Mediterranean refugia, so in that sense,
all Europeans are Mediterranean.
That being said, this is genetics, not genealogy.
taf
Michael O'Hearn
No, but we do know that there were plenty of Jews in England and Normandy at
the time of the Conquest in 1066. This is not the case with other ethnic
groups of this unusual in Europe haplotype.
As stated once again, this is not to prove that D'Arcy was actually
descended from Jews. We would need more information to corroborate this.
That is why such questions need to be asked. I did include a reference to
Manasser de Arsic whose name looks suspiciously like the Hebrew tribe of
Manasseh, and to the fact that Thomas d'Arcy owed money to the Jews, not
that he himself was Jewish, he being Christian. That said, I cannot say
definitively that any of my D'Arcy ancestors were Jewish. Unless there is
additional information to connect them to the Jews, my assumption is that
they were *goyim* i.e. Gentiles whose ancestors were part of the great
agricultural expansion into Europe many generations ago.
--
Michael O'Hearn
Michael O'Hearn
They cite an unspecified family record for John D'Arcy's son William of
Plattyn as being married to Anne Barnwell and their son John as being
married to Margaret Fleming.
Burke has Sir William married to Margaret, daughter of Fleming of Slane,
County Meath, and his son John D'Arcy of Plattyn married to Anne, Daughter
of Christopher Barnewall of Crickstown, County Meath. (D'Arcy of Hyde Park,
Westmeath)
--
Michael O'Hearn
char...@gmail.com
My Grandfather is a Darcy and based on the reasearch and talks I have had with my family, your informaiton is not far off. I am very interested in the informaiton you have regarding the Darcy/D'Arcy family. How may I contact you?
Bronwen Edwards
That was my penny's worth. Now for my 2 cents worth: I have looked closely at the d'Arcy family and am also a descendant of your bunch through the Butlers. I do not recall anyone even suggesting a genealogical link to the Dukes of Normandy, only that they were of Norman origin. Some of the wording I see in the original post sounds very much like Burke's Peerage although even he did not make the leap to the Dukes (as far as I can recall). I also have not seen an attempt to put him in the conquest of 1066. I do have, as progenitor, Norman de Areci with lordships in Nocton, Coningsby, Dunston, Cawkwell, and Stallingborough. His son was Robert of Nocton who was alive in 1130. His son was Thomas of Nocton who died 2 July 1180 and married Alice d'Eyncourt.
Bronwen