Cabrera, Marques de Moya
Graham Milne
was Dona Violante de Cabrera, who I think was the sister of Andreas de
Cabrera, 1st Marques de Moya (who was apparently of Jewish descent). At
least the Jewish Encylopedia
(http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?letter=S&artid=474) says that
Don Abraham was a 'near relative' of Andreas de Cabrera and I assume that
this was through his wife. Can anyone confirm this either way?
Interestingly, Empress Eugénie of France (1870-1920), wife of the Emperor,
Napoleon III (1808-1873), was the daughter of Don Cipriano de Palafox y
Portocarrero (1785-1839, 17th Marquis of Moya, which presumably means that
she was part Jewish.
Graham Milne
http://www.circulodeopinion.com/II_premio_A_pardo.htm#TERCERO1
'Don Andrés de Cabrera, hijo de Pedro López de Madrid o Xibaja y de doña
María Alonso de Cabrera, nació en Cuenca en 1430, siendo bautizado en la
parroquia de San Miguel. Sobre él pesó la sombra de su ascendencia conversa;
sabrás que no era lo mismo ser cristiano nuevo que viejo en aquellos
tiempos. Andrés y su hermano Pedro fueron introducidos en la corte por Juan
Pacheco, marqués de Villena, su más eterno rival por el dominio de la ciudad
de Segovia.'
This says that he was a 'new Christian' (cristiano nuevo').
"Graham Milne" <grahamm...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:24OdnXItNtk4QDPR...@bt.com...
sa...@abc-publications.co.uk
Castile, was Dona Violante de Cabrera, who I think was the sister of
Andreas de Cabrera, 1st Marques de Moya (who was apparently of Jewish
descent). At least the Jewish Encylopedia (http://
www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?letter=S&artid=474) says that Don
Abraham was a 'near relative' of Andreas de Cabrera and I assume that
this was through his wife. Can anyone confirm this either way?
Interestingly, Empress Eugénie of France (1870–1920), wife of the
Graham Milne
J.L.Fernandez Blanco
wrote:
As you said, "part" Jewish...minimal (to the point of being virtually
non existent), as is the case with ALL the titled nobility in Spain
(and, I dare say, most Spaniards, noble or not). Statistically is
impossible not to have any Jewish or Muslim (be it Arab or otherwise)
ancestry if you are of Spanish stock. For almost 800 years the three
communities lived together (and intermingled without it being a major
cause for any scandal) and it wasn't until the mid to late XIV century
that problems began.
However, going to your specific question, all the siblings (and half-
brothers) of Andrés de Cabrera are known, are there is no Violante
among them--besides, the chronology points to an earlier generation.
You must bear in mind that conversos usually adopted the last names of
their godparents or the name of city/place where they came from.
That's the reason why so many Jewish families have such names as
Toledo, Rojas, Guzmán, Mendoza, Córdoba, Ayala, Luna, Carvajal, etc.,
all of whom, at some point in time, intermarried with "cristiano
viejo" families.
Regarding the first marqués de Moya's pedigree much has been said, yet
there is no solid proof that his ancestry was converso, just
suspicions. The López de Madrid or Gibaja are documented from the mid
XIV century on and they always appear as "hijodalgos" in Cuenca with
no mention of any converso ancestry. If there is any in this pedigree
it has to come through Leonor López de Cetina, about whom little is
known (she was Andres' paternal grandmother). Andres' mother María
Alonso de Cabrera was, on her paternal side, most probably from
peasant stock and on her maternal side she belonged to the lower ranks
of the nobility.
Regards,
JL
Graham Milne
wrote:
Many thanks for your reply. The Jewish Encyclopedia must have had a
sound reason for referring to Don Abraham Senior as a close realtive
of Andres de Cabrera. Since Violante was apparently not Andres' sister
perhaps she was his aunt or a close cousin. It would be quite a
coincidence if Don Arbaham was a close relative but NOT through his
wife bearing the name de Cabrera.
taf
<jfernandezbla...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> As you said, "part" Jewish...minimal (to the point of being virtually
> non existent), as is the case with ALL the titled nobility in Spain
> (and, I dare say, most Spaniards, noble or not). Statistically is
> impossible not to have any Jewish or Muslim (be it Arab or otherwise)
> ancestry if you are of Spanish stock. For almost 800 years the three
> communities lived together (and intermingled without it being a major
> cause for any scandal) and it wasn't until the mid to late XIV century
> that problems began.
FWIW, a recent genetic analysis shows the Spanish population to be
predominantly an equal admixture of Northern and Southern European
genetics, slightly more south than north. They also have about 8%
West Asian type (typical in the Caucasus), and another 8% being
roughly equal amounts of Semitic, Arab (slightly less), Moor (slightly
more), and what they call Druze - typical of Lebanon's Druze
population. Of these, the West Asian type seems odd - does this
represent something picked up by the Visigoths on their way to Spain?
Or represent slave populations brought in by the Arabs (but it is
awfully high). It does not represent a sometimes-hypothesized Basque/
Caucasus population - French Basques have none of this. The Druze may
represent either Arab slave populations or Phoenicians.
On a more historical level, essentially the entire (small) Jewish
population under the Visigoths were absorbed into the Visigoth noble
classes, such that most of the late-period Visigoths were 'part-
Jewish' and these presumably served as the ancestors of the later
nobility in Reconquest and Mozarab Iberia, with the latter presumably
picking up additional later influx. (Which influx has been overstated
by some in the 'everybody's a Jew' camp, such as Roth - for one
family, he argues that one of the Toledo families was Jewish because
they had a daughter who married another family that is claimed to be
Jewish, as if such noble families would not have married had they not
both had Jewish blood.)
As always, it is not a question of claims, or probabilities, but of
proof.
taf
WJho...@aol.com
t...@clearwire.net writes:
> Of these, the West Asian type seems odd - does this
> represent something picked up by the Visigoths on their way to Spain?
> Or represent slave populations brought in by the Arabs (but it is
> awfully high). It does not represent a sometimes-hypothesized Basque/
> Caucasus population - French Basques have none of this. The Druze may
> represent either Arab slave populations or Phoenicians.
>
You forgot the "Greeks" who conquered part of Spain in Merovingian times.
Soldiers from the Byzantine Empire.
You remember we recently had a thread about the fate of that little prince
taken to Constantinople and held there for at least a little.
taf
> In a message dated 10/25/2010 6:36:10 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
>
> t...@clearwire.net writes:
> > Of these, the West Asian type seems odd - does this
> > represent something picked up by the Visigoths on their way to Spain?
> > Or represent slave populations brought in by the Arabs (but it is
> > awfully high). It does not represent a sometimes-hypothesized Basque/
> > Caucasus population - French Basques have none of this. The Druze may
> > represent either Arab slave populations or Phoenicians.
>
> You forgot the "Greeks" who conquered part of Spain in Merovingian times.
> Soldiers from the Byzantine Empire.
I assumed Greeks would be of the 'Southern European' type, along with
Romans and any Etruscans they may have brought with them.
taf
Graham Milne
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/CATALAN%20NOBILITY.htm#BernardoIIIdied1368A
Any views on the likelihood of her being the first wife of Don Abraham Senior (1410/12-1493)? See:
http://www.peerage.org/genealogy/pedigree.htm#5
I can't find any other Violante de Cabrera at this period.
Graham Milne
http://www.peerage.org/genealogy/Violante%20de%20Cabrera.pdf
Graham Milne
http://www.peerage.org/genealogy/Violante%20de%20Cabrera.pdf
Any ideas/comments would be welcome.
On Friday, 8 October 2010 10:00:16 UTC+1, Graham Milne wrote:
J.L. Fernandez Blanco
> I think I may have found Violante de Cabrera. See: http://www.peerage.org/genealogy/Violante%20de%20Cabrera.pdf Any ideas/comments would be welcome. On Friday, 8 October 2010 10:00:16 UTC+1, Graham Milne wrote: > The first wife of my ancestor, Don Abraham Senior (1410/12-1492) of Castile, > was Dona Violante de Cabrera, who I think was the sister of Andreas de > Cabrera, 1st Marques de Moya (who was apparently of Jewish descent). At > least the Jewish Encylopedia > (http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?letter=S&artid=474) says that > Don Abraham was a 'near relative' of Andreas de Cabrera and I assume that > this was through his wife. Can anyone confirm this either way? > > Interestingly, Empress Eugénie of France (1870-1920), wife of the Emperor, > Napoleon III (1808-1873), was the daughter of Don Cipriano de Palafox y > Portocarrero (1785-1839, 17th Marquis of Moya, which presumably means that > she was part Jewish.
Best wishes.
José Luis.
Graham Milne
'Casade Cabrera en Cordoba' at
(http://books.google.es/books?id=iM0WAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_v2_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false)
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/CATALAN%20NOBILITY.htm
http://www.enciclopedia.cat/enciclop%C3%A8dies/gran-enciclop%C3%A8dia-catalana/EC-GEC-0013192.xml?s.q=cabrera#.Uq-FIvRdWSp
Are we supposed to accept your unsupported opinion about something you clearly haven't read? First lesson in genealogy: If you want people to accept your opinions then provide arguments supported by facts.
J.L. Fernandez Blanco
I have and I read Casa de Cabrera. It's one of the famous "Memoriales" written by some well paid "chronista", in this case Francisco Ruano. The newest studies (mainly Salazar Acha) show that the genealogy contained therein is nothing but fiction. So, you trust an almost not documented "Memorial" written in the XVIII century and done in order to show the huge merits of the "payer" in order to obtain a Title of Castile over a very well documented work by Salazar Acha? Or Sánchez Saus? Or whomever is doing a wonderful job digging documents that nobody cared to analyse before? I don't get it.
Now, Medieval Lands...what? Are you kidding me? How many times have we written and discussed in this very forum about the reliability of this website as a source? This caveat: "The primary sources which confirm the parentage and marriages of the following family members have not yet been identified, unless otherwise stated below." for the generations after Guerau IV, should suffice to take what is stated with a grain of salt, as few, if any, documentation are mentioned and it's a blutant copy of the García Caraffas brothers and Fernández de Bethancourt works from the end of the XIX and beginning of the XX centuries, lacking any modern scientific method of research.
And, OF COURSE, I know the Enciclopedia Catalana...so, what? Where is the documentation proving the provided genealogy?
If you don't know, the website is mainly based on the works of Armand de Fluviá, an excellente Catalonian genealogist, whom they shamelessly fail to mention as they fail to mention others. Get the originals by Fluviá et al., fully documented...and then, please, start an intelligent discussion.
I have most of them, and I have thoroughly worked through them. Try to get them (there are wonderful interlibrary loans in the USA, that's my own experience of the ten years spent studying and getting my Masters degree and working for the US Department of Education there) and then let me know where some of the lines mentioned in the website Gran Enciclopèdia Catalana happen to be mentioned by Fluvià, member of the Institució Catalana de Genealogia i Heràldica (the only official institution recognized not only by the Catalonia government but by the international community of genealogists and historians as well). The one you should be looking for is "Repertori de grandeses, títols i corporacions nobiliàries de Catalunya II (2004)." Also, any other publication by the Institució Catalana de Genealogia i Heràldica follow the guidelines for well-documented research. You may search or get in contact with them about ALL the works they have about the vescomtes de Cabrera (who, needless to say ARE NOT RELATED IN ANY WAY to the minor nobility Cabrera family to which the 1st Marquis de Moya and his uterine-brothers belonged, as has been demonstrated, i.a., by Sánchez-Saus in "La Nobleza Andaluza en la Edad Media, Universidad de Granada, 2005...you may also consider getting this superbly documented analysis). This [the connection between the vescomtes de Cabrera, and the 1st marquis de Moya's family] not even Charles Cawley dare to suggest.
Until then, the rest, as I said in another thread is garbage unless proven otherwise.
Don't insult my and yours intelligence unwarranted stating that whatever I say is "my opinion." Get to work scientifically and not just regurgitating old nonsense, and then we can discuss the topic as it should be.
Regards,
José Luis.
J.L. Fernandez Blanco
So, please, avoid ill-informed "opinions" on your side about me.
Regards.
Graham Milne
You state:
'I have and I read Casa de Cabrera. It's one of the famous "Memoriales" written by some well paid "chronista", in this case Francisco Ruano. The newest studies (mainly Salazar Acha) show that the genealogy contained therein is nothing but fiction.'
Nothing but fiction? So, not one single correct fact? NONE of the people mentioned even existed? This is what you are saying. This an exaggeration on your part - a 'mis-statement - a deliberate mis-statement - i.e. a lie. I cannot have a meaningful discussion with someone who demonstrably lies.
I am afraid that your dishonesty negates all four of your degrees. Perhaps you had to take four degrees in a row because you couldn't find anyone willing to give you a job.
Francisco Tavares de Almeida
Best regards,
Francisco
(Portugal)
J.L. Fernandez Blanco
> Did you learn any manners? Evidently not. You state: 'I have and I read Casa de Cabrera. It's one of the famous "Memoriales" written by some well paid "chronista", in this case Francisco Ruano. The newest studies (mainly Salazar Acha) show that the genealogy contained therein is nothing but fiction.' Nothing but fiction? So, not one single correct fact? NONE of the people mentioned even existed? This is what you are saying. This an exaggeration on your part - a 'mis-statement - a deliberate mis-statement - i.e. a lie. I cannot have a meaningful discussion with someone who demonstrably lies. I am afraid that your dishonesty negates all four of your degrees. Perhaps you had to take four degrees in a row because you couldn't find anyone willing to give you a job. On Sunday, 22 December 2013 07:50:13 UTC, J.L. Fernandez Blanco wrote: > Continuing the saga, I believe that having four Universtiy degrees, qualifies me not to just state "opinions": Master Magna Cum Laude in International Business, Master Summa Cum Laude in History, specializing in Medieval Genealogy and Sigillography; Master Cum Laude in Anthropology and Master Cum Laude in Education and currently preparing PhD dissertation on the topic "The Grafschaft Mansfeld. A case of a failed state due to religious turmoil during the Reformation." > > So, please, avoid ill-informed "opinions" on your side about me. > > Regards.
As for my degrees, after studying for more than four decades, I believe I don't have to explain anything to you or whomever it maybe.
Again, if you prefer to trust a work that barely shows any documentation, that is the product of a huge payment made by the then head of the house to exalt his family in order to get a Title of Castile, to any modern scholarly work, then it is up to you.
I am not going to enter into a discussion / argument that reminds me of a troll who's been lost for a time from this forum, because it doesn't do any good to anybody.
For my part, whether you consider Violante as a near relative of the marquis of Moya or not, is irrelevant and you have the right to consider her as such if you wished too. I was just suggesting other [more modern and fully documented] works you could check to see if the assertion made in one Encyclopaedia rings as true or not. For the rest, I couldn't care less.
Good luck with your research.
Regards.
J.L. Fernandez Blanco
> Domingo, 22 de Dezembro de 2013 7:50:13 UTC, J.L. Fernandez Blanco escreveu: > Continuing the saga, I believe that having four Universtiy degrees, qualifies me not to just state "opinions": Master Magna Cum Laude in International Business, Master Summa Cum Laude in History, specializing in Medieval Genealogy and Sigillography; Master Cum Laude in Anthropology and Master Cum Laude in Education and currently preparing PhD dissertation on the topic "The Grafschaft Mansfeld. A case of a failed state due to religious turmoil during the Reformation." > > So, please, avoid ill-informed "opinions" on your side about me. > > Regards. Please excuse my curiosity but why did you choose the "Grafschaft Mansfeld"? Do you have a line to them? Best regards, Francisco (Portugal)
Thanks for your interest.
José Luis.
Francisco Tavares de Almeida
I have the Mansfeld in my collections because quite probably we share a remote ancestor: Graf Burkhard von Querfurt, Burggraf von Madgeburg 1136-1161. I think both lines - to the Mansfeld and mine - are arguable but acceptable this meaning that they are covered in respectable sources and to my knowledge not disproved.
If you also count Graf Burkhard as your ancestor and have studied the line maybe you can give me a clue to his wife Adelheid who brought him the Burggrafschaft of Madgeburg. Some websites identify her with the 3rd daughter of Ludwig, Landgraf von Thüring & Hedwig von Gudensberg but I have this last one as a nun in Drübeck's Abbey and later the 1st Abbess of Eisenach so I keep Adelheid without parentage.
Best regards,
Francisco
(Portugal)
J.L. Fernandez Blanco
I decided to take some days off people and things (except my computer) from the blistering temperatures in BA (40ºC at midnight is like living in the desert, though in the desert temperature drops at night!). As soon as I get back to BA I'll be telling you what I have.
BTW, I have the parents of Franz Verdugo, who was not a Verdugo (not a pun!) in the male line. They did not belong to the nobility. Surely I have data about the Burggrafschaft Magdeburg as this was probably one of the most important acquisitions by the Herren v.Querfurt (until they sold it back to the Erzbistum, becoming first Titular Burggrafen and then Burggrafen v.Maidburg, a fantasy title, a reminder that they had once been v.Magdeburg). Querfurt-Mansfeld and Magdeburg were quite entangled at the time (XIII century, I believe)
How reliable the data is, I cannot say right now, though I believe is based in the most modern studies and has not been disputed otherwise.
I don't remember any connection to the Landgrafen v.Thüringen. If I don't recall it wrongly, he did not inherit the office, but was granted the same by his brother who, after the death of the previous Burggraf, bestowed it on him. This brother was Erzbischof v.Magdeburg. I seem to remember that nothing (not even the name) is recorded about his wife about whom I think some sources just indicate she was "aus Magdeburg" not "von Magdeburg." On the other hand, Magdeburg in itself orbited more towards the lands of Sachsen and Brandenburg than Thüringen although the southwestern and southern borders were with Meißen and Thüringen, AFAIR.
Anyway, as I said, as soon as I go back to BA I'll let you know what I have on this topic.
Seasons Greetings!
José Luis.
J.L. Fernandez Blanco
Cheers,
J.L.