re: Gilbert, earl of Strathearn (d. 1223) and Maud d'Aubigny

23 views
Skip to first unread message

John P. Ravilious

unread,
Jan 7, 2008, 4:00:58 PM1/7/08
to
Monday, 7 January, 2008


Hello All,

The recent discussion re: Robert de Tony, the brothers de
Ros and their kin brought up an old discussion. In 2003 I had
addressed the issue of the parentage of Maud or Matilda
d'Aubigny (de Albini, &c.), the wife of Gilbert, earl of
Strathearn [1]. Beyond the onomastic and chronological
matters discussed, and Chris Phillips' citation from Complete
Peerage, the matter was essentially where CP XII(1):381, note
(e) had left it, stating of Maud' father that

' He was probably William the Breton (Brito) II,
ancestor of the Lords of Belvoir, whose wife was
Maud de St Liz, da. of Robert FitzRichard de Clare. '[2]

I can add to the foregoing what the heraldic evidence
indicates. The account in Scots Peerage of the Earls of
Strathearn notes that Earl Gilbert had a seal with nine billets
(or similar), but that "The later Celtic Earls all bore or, two
chevronels gules" [3]. The arms of d'Aubigny of Belvoir were,
"Or, within a bordure gules two chevrons of the last"
(alternately described as "Or, two chevrons within a bordure
gules"). These are reflected in many printed sources, and are
also the arms found in the windows at Belvoir castle. The arms
of d'Aubigny of Arundel were 'Gules, a lion rampant or', which
were modified by their Mowbray kinsman [4]. These arms were
clearly unrelated to the arms of the lords of Belvoir, or to
those of the Earls of Strathearn.

This is a clear indication of the adoption of the arms of
Gilbert's wife in place of his own, with a difference in that
the bordure was eliminated. This provides sufficient evidence
that Maud d'Aubigny was of the family of d'Aubigny of Belvoir,
and clearly not that of the d'Aubigny Earls of Arundel. While
it does not in itself assist in placing her in the correct
generation, I believe all the evidence points to Maud being
the daughter of William d'Aubigny and Maud de St. Liz, as
previously discussed.

Cheers,

John *

NOTES

[1] J. Ravilious, <Gilbert, earl of Strathearn (d. 1223) and
Maud d'Aubigny>, SGM, 19 June 2003:

' SP says in part of Gilbert, Earl of Strathearn (d. 1223),

' He married, first, Matilda, daughter of William
d'Aubigny. She witnessed many of his charters to
Inchaffray up to the year 1210 [NOTE 5: Charters
of Inchaffray, 25]. He married, secondly, Ysenda,
a lady who held lands in Abercairey, and had two
brothers Sir Richard and Galfrid of Gask.' [1]

No further identification is provided, resulting in various
readers/databases giving numerous affiliations for Matilda
daughter of William. A number indicate Matilda as a
daughter of one of the Earls of Arundel.

I would identify Matilda/Maud d'Aubigny as the
daughter of William d'Aubigny of Belvoir, co. Leics.
(d. ca. 1167) by his wife Maud fitz Robert, based
on a number of factors.

1. Gilbert was born say 1150, being allegedly aged 73
at his death in 1223 (SP VIII:242). His first wife
Matilda/Maud was likely born about or slightly later
than the same date.

2. William d'Aubigny, son and heir of William (d. 1167)
and Maud fitz Robert, was born after 1146 (MC 5).

3. Of the issue of Gilbert of Strathearn and Maud
d'Aubigny, the fourth son (and eventual heir) Robert
" ..appears, with his elder brothers, as a witness
to his father's charters to Inchaffray so early as
1199,..." (SP VIII:244). Assuming Robert was born
no later than 1185, and was at least the fourth
child of Gilbert and Maud, it is safe to say the
eldest known child (son, Gilchrist) was born no
later than say 1179/1180, and possibly somewhat
earlier. This appears to strengthen a birth range
for Maud d'Aubigny of between say 1150 and 1165 at
the extreme, and most likely say 1155-1160.

4. The names of the issue of Gilbert, earl of Strathearn
and Maud d'Aubigny definitely reflect a close
relationship to the d'Aubigny family of Belvoir, and
not that of the earls of Arundel. Their names, and the
evident name source/namesake, are as follows:

Child Name Namesake Relation to
(Apparent) Child

A. Gilchrist None identified (* possibly no familial
source: name means
"servant of Christ")

B. William William d'Aubigny Maternal Grandfather
of Belvoir (d.ca.1167)

also

William, the son Maternal Uncle

C. Ferteth Ferteth, earl of Paternal Grandfather
Strathearn (d. 1171)

D. Robert Robert fitz Richard Mother's Maternal
de Clare, of Little Grandfather
Dunmow, Essex (d. 1134)

E. Fergus Not identified Unknown

F. Malise Malise, earl of Father's Paternal
Strathearn (d. aft 1140) Grandfather

also,

Malise, of Muthill & c. Paternal Uncle

G. Gilbert Gilbert, earl of Father
Strathearn

H. Matilda Matilda d'Aubigny Mother

also,

Maud fitz Robert Maternal Grandmother

I. Cecilia Cecilia de Belvoir, Mother's Paternal
also le Bigod, heiress Grandmother
of Belvoir (d aft 1129)

J. Ethna Ethna, wife of Ferteth, Paternal Grandmother
earl of Strathearn


I would be interested in hearing of any further docu-
mentation, opinion or relevant comment/criticism concerning
this identification. As a followup, I will post a detailed AT
for either the children (or a grandchild) of Gilbert of
Strathearn and Maud d'Aubigny.

Meanwhile, good luck, and good hunting.

John *

NOTES:

[1] The Scots Peerage, ed. Sir James Balfour Paul, vol.
VIII, p. 242 (The Ancient Earls of Strathearn). '

[2] Chris Phillips replied as follows, in the same thread:

'Complete Peerage, vol. 12, part 1, p. 381, note e, suggests
the same affiliation:
"Inchaffray, pp. 2, 6 [Charters of Inchaffray Abbey, Scot.
Hist. Soc.] He was probably William the Breton (Brito) II,
ancestor of the Lords of Belvoir, whose wife was Maud de St Liz,
da. of Robert FitzRichard de Clare. See Round, Feudal England,
pp. 474-76, 575; Farrer, Early Yorkshire Charters, vol. i, p.
461; vol. vi, ed. C. T. Clay, Yorks Arch. Soc., Rec. Ser., p.
209." '


[3] SP VIII:254.


[4] John W. Papworth, An Alphabetical Dictionary of Coats of
Arms Belonging to Families in Great Britain and Ireland
(London: T. Richards, 1874),p. 78]. See also Joseph
Foster, Some Feudal Coats of Arms (Oxford and London:
James Parker & Co., 1902), p. 66.


* John P. Ravilious

M.Sjostrom

unread,
Jan 7, 2008, 5:28:54 PM1/7/08
to GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com

Interestingly enough, the matriline to which William
the Conqueror belonged, continues straight through
this family:
http://genealogics.org/descend.php?personID=I00002954&tree=LEO&displayoption=female&generations=6

It would be a service to this matriline (passing the
mitochondrial DNA of the exalted fisher's wife from
Normandy), if daughters of this Strathearn couple were
to have children, also daughters to continue it.

____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

t...@clearwire.net

unread,
Jan 7, 2008, 7:30:46 PM1/7/08
to

It is perhaps noteworthy that the Clare family and their kin represent
one of the well-studied clusters of related arms in Anglo-Norman
England (along with the Vere-Mandevilles quarterly cluster and the
Warenne-Beaumont chequey cluster), sharing chevrons. It would seem
that the chevron arms of Aubigny of Belvoir come from Clare via St.
Liz.

taf

John P. Ravilious

unread,
Jan 17, 2008, 8:32:29 AM1/17/08
to
Dear Todd,

Actually, the marital connections which brought the adoption of
the chevron(s) gules into successive families does not actually
include St. Liz. As indicated below, the descent and adoption of the
chevron gules appears to go de Clare -> FitzWalter -> d'Aubigny ->
Strathearn:

CLARE
Or, three Robert fitz Richard = Maud de
chevrons of Dunmow, Essex I St.
gules (yr brother of Gilbert I Liz
de Clare, d.ca. 1117) I
I
________________________I___
I I
Walter fitz Maud 'de St. Liz'
Robert = William
= 1) Maud de Lucy d'Aubigny
I I
I __________I_____
FITZWALTER Sir Robert fitz I I
Or, a fess Walter I I
between two (MC Surety) I I
chevrons gules I I
I I
William d'Aubigny Maud
of Belvoir = Gilbert
D'AUBIGNY d. 1236 E of
Or, within a Strathearn
bordure gules d. 1223
two chevrons of I
the last I
I
STRATHEARN Robert
Or, two E of
chevronels gules Strathearn


A generous correspondent has provided evidence that there were
known links carrying these arms (e.g. FitzWalter to Pecche), but the
d'Aubigny and Strathearn 'descent' was apparently not previously
noticed.

Cheers,

John

On Jan 7, 7:30 pm, t...@clearwire.net wrote:
> On Jan 7, 1:00 pm, "John P. Ravilious" <ther...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > ' He was probably William the Breton (Brito) II,
> > ancestor of the Lords of Belvoir, whose wife was
> > Maud de St Liz, da. of Robert FitzRichard de Clare. '[2]
>
> > I can add to the foregoing what the heraldic evidence
> > indicates. The account in Scots Peerage of the Earls of

> > Strathearnnotes that Earl Gilbert had a seal with nine billets


> > (or similar), but that "The later Celtic Earls all bore or, two

> > chevronels gules" [3]. The arms ofd'Aubignyof Belvoir were,


> > "Or, within a bordure gules two chevrons of the last"
> > (alternately described as "Or, two chevrons within a bordure
> > gules"). These are reflected in many printed sources, and are
> > also the arms found in the windows at Belvoir castle. The arms

> > ofd'Aubignyof Arundel were 'Gules, a lion rampant or', which


> > were modified by their Mowbray kinsman [4]. These arms were
> > clearly unrelated to the arms of the lords of Belvoir, or to
> > those of the Earls ofStrathearn.
>
> > This is a clear indication of the adoption of the arms of
> > Gilbert's wife in place of his own, with a difference in that
> > the bordure was eliminated. This provides sufficient evidence

> > that Maudd'Aubignywas of the family ofd'Aubignyof Belvoir,
> > and clearly not that of thed'AubignyEarls of Arundel. While


> > it does not in itself assist in placing her in the correct
> > generation, I believe all the evidence points to Maud being

> > the daughter of Williamd'Aubignyand Maud de St. Liz, as

John P. Ravilious

unread,
Jan 17, 2008, 8:38:10 AM1/17/08
to
Dear 'M',

There were three known daughters of Gilbert, Earl of Strathearn
and Maud/Matilda d'Aubigny:

1. Matilda, m. Malcolm, Earl of Fife
(his 1st wife; she d. sine prole)
2. Cecilia, m. Walter fitz Alan of Ruthven
There were sons of this marriage (extant descents
via Ruthven, Earl of Gowrie); one daughter I note,
m. Sir Patrick Edgar [see SP IV:255]. There may
be a female descent here, which I have not traced.
3. Ethna, m. David de Hay of Erroll
Again, male issue, from whom the Hays, Earls
of Erroll [see SP III:556 et seq.].
I am not aware of any female line of descent from
this couple.

Hope this is of interest, and possible use.

Cheers,

John

On Jan 7, 5:28 pm, "M.Sjostrom" <q...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Interestingly enough, the matriline to which William
> the Conqueror belonged, continues straight through

> this family:http://genealogics.org/descend.php?personID=I00002954&tree=LEO&displa...


>
> It would be a service to this matriline (passing the
> mitochondrial DNA of the exalted fisher's wife from

> Normandy), if daughters of thisStrathearncouple were

t...@clearwire.net

unread,
Jan 17, 2008, 10:22:06 AM1/17/08
to


Well, the line does include one St. Liz generation, Maud, and didn't
William d'Aubigny's sister Maud also appear with her mother's St. Liz
surname? I vaguely remember this as an odd case of maternal surname
inheritance commented upon by Round in one of the Hist Manu Comm
volumes.

taf

John P. Ravilious

unread,
Jan 17, 2008, 11:25:19 AM1/17/08
to
Dear Todd,

I note that Maud, sister of Walter fitz Robert had adopted the
St. Liz name - she had to choose something after all - and 'filia
Roberti' didn't quite cut it, I suppose. She was a "FitzWalter" in my
book, and there was no insertion of St. Liz arms, or adoption by her
of the arms of St. Liz, at least not as indicated by the adoption of
the Chevrons by her descendants.

As to the wife of Gilbert, earl of Strathearn going by St. Liz,
that doesn't sound familiar. My recollection is that Round's work
focused on the confusion between Maud de St. Liz, wife of Robert fitz
Richrd de Clare, and Maud the wife of William d'Aubigny (her
daughter), whom other writers had taken to be either the same person
or another member of the St. Liz family (i.e. daughter of another male
St. Liz). I will check my notes later, as I think I copied the
appropriate pages from Round some time ago.

Cheers,

John

Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages