Thomas Strangeways, Esq. (living 1442), 2nd husband of Katherine Neville, Duchess of Norfolk

[Douglas Richardson]

On Sunday, October 20, 2013 5:42:02 PM UTC-6, Brad Verity wrote:

< E3) Katherine Neville, by 2nd husband (c.1399-1483) m. 2) Sir Thomas
< Strangways (d. by 1443), and had

Dear Brad ~

As far as I know, the social rank of Thomas Strangeways, living 21 March 1441/2, was esquire (as in the record below).

National Archives, E 210/11104 (Date: 1440–1 — Thomas Strangways, Esq., one of the feoffors of Roger Radclyf, Esq. to John Penykok, groom of the King’s Crown: Appointment of attorneys to deliver seisin of a messuage in Low Burnham and lands, etc., in Eastlound and elsewhere in the Isle of Axholme; Linc.) (available at www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp).

Thomas Strangeways is mentioned in three early pedigrees. He is not styled a knight in any of them:

1. Coll. Top. et Gen. 1 (1834): 300–301 (Neville ped.: “Katherine [Neville] Duchess of Norfolk, [1] = John Duke of Norfolk, [2] = Thomas Strangways.”), 406; 2 (1835): 161 (Strangways ped.: “Thomas [Strangways], mar. Katherine, wid. of [Thos.] Duke of Norfolk”).

2. Glover & St. George, Vis. of Yorkshire 1584–5, 1612 (1875): 202–204 (Strangwayes ped.: “Thomas Strangewayes, married …., relict of the Duke of Norfolk.”).

3. Flower, Vis. of Yorkshire 1563–4 (H.S.P. 16) (1881): 299–302 (Strangewayes ped.: “Thomas Stranguysh maryed to = Katheren relicta Ducis Norfok.”).

The new online index to the Court of Common Pleas lists two lawsuits for Thomas Strangways, esquire for the year 1450:

1. Strangways, Thomas, esq., vs. Lumberd, William, of York, butcher; Lemyng, John, of York, walker
2. Strangways, Thomas, esq, vs. Wilberfosse, John, of Wylberfosse, yeoman; Waltham, Robert, of Pokelyngton, butcher; Rooger, William, of Yolethrop, husbandman; Smolt, Christopher, of Thresk, yeoman; Flesshewer, of Birdlyngton, flesshewer.

I suspect this is a different individual, though, as the following record from the A2A Catalogue indicates that Thomas Strangeways' widow, Katherine Neville, had remarried before 1 October 1443 to John, Viscount Beaumont:

Berkeley Castle Muniments, BCM/D/1/23/3 (Account of daily expenses of the household at Epworth (Lincs.) of John Viscount Beaumont and Katherine his wife from Tues. 1 Oct. to Thurs. the last day of Oct. 22 Hen. VI [1443])(available at www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp).

It is possible, however, that this last record has been misdated 22 Henry VI [1443], as I don't find any further instance of Katherine Neville, Duchess of Norfolk, as the wife of John, Viscount Beaumont, until some years afterwards.

Katherine Neville was definitely married to John Beaumont, Viscount Beaumont, before 1453, in which year he presented to the church of Kirkley, Suffolk (a Mowbray family holding). For this record, see Suckling, History and Antiquities of Suffolk 1 (1846): 268, which may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=XwQVAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA268

In 1460 I find that John, Viscount Beaumont was suing regarding trespasses at Little Framingham and Lopham, Norfolk. See the following weblinks for those lawsuits:

http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no796/aCP40no796fronts/IMG_0036.htm

http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no796/aCP40no796fronts/IMG_0096.htm

Castor, The King, the Crown, and the Duchy of Lancaster (2000): 104, footnote 126 indicates that Katherine Neville, Duchess of Norfolk, held the manors of Little Framingham and Lopham, Norfolk in dower.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

[Brad Verity]

On Monday, October 21, 2013 11:42:32 AM UTC-7, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> As far as I know, the social rank of Thomas Strangeways, living 21 March 1441/2, was esquire (as in the record below).
> National Archives, E 210/11104 (Date: 1440–1 — Thomas Strangways, Esq., one of the feoffors of Roger Radclyf, Esq. to John Penykok, groom of the King’s Crown: Appointment of attorneys to deliver seisin of a messuage in Low Burnham and lands, etc., in Eastlound and elsewhere in the Isle of Axholme; Linc.) (available at www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp).

Thanks, Douglas. I have him as a knight in my database, as that's how Prof. Rowena Archer styles him in her ODNB bio of Katherine (Neville), Duchess of Norfolk: "She [Katherine the Duchess] is not known to have received a jointure at the time of her marriage, but what the duke had left, together with her common-law dower, she carried to Sir Thomas Strangways, a knight who had been in Mowbray's service at least since 1414. Katherine appears, from her accounts, to have been single at Michaelmas 1440. Her second marriage is first mentioned on 27 January 1442, when the couple were fined for not securing the necessary royal licence for their union. Either the marriage had remained secret for some time, or at least one of their two daughters, Katherine and Joan, was born out of wedlock for, by 25 August 1443, Thomas was dead and Katherine was married to John Beaumont, first Viscount Beaumont".

Prof. Archer may be mistaken in making him a knight, as the documents you've cited seem to say different.

The dowager duchess of Norfolk actually had three children with Strangways: a son, Thomas, who died young, and daughters Katherine and Joan. Katherine was no doubt the elder daughter as she was married to the Lord Grey of Codnor in 1454, seven years before her sister Joan was married to Sir William Willoughby of Parham in 1461.

It is of course just possible, if the duchess and Strangways were married right after Michaelmas 1440, for her to have had the three children by him in 1441, 1442 & 1443 - but the possibility of some or all of the children being born before their marriage is intriguing. It's also possible that they were married privately in the 1430s (the duke of Norfolk died in 1432), but did not make their union public until 1441-42.

> I suspect this is a different individual, though, as the following record from the A2A Catalogue indicates that Thomas Strangeways' widow, Katherine Neville, had remarried before 1 October 1443 to John, Viscount Beaumont:
> Berkeley Castle Muniments, BCM/D/1/23/3 (Account of daily expenses of the household at Epworth (Lincs.) of John Viscount Beaumont and Katherine his wife from Tues. 1 Oct. to Thurs. the last day of Oct. 22 Hen. VI [1443])(available at www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp).
> It is possible, however, that this last record has been misdated 22 Henry VI [1443], as I don't find any further instance of Katherine Neville, Duchess of Norfolk, as the wife of John, Viscount Beaumont, until some years afterwards.

Interesting, so the document itself should be examined to determine if there are any indicators within it to confirm the October 1443 date.

I have Thomas Strangways's father as Henry Strangways of Strangways Hall, Lancashire, but I don't have a mother for him. Have you had any luck in identifying his mother?

Thanks & Cheers, ----Brad

[jhigg...@yahoo.com]

On Monday, October 21, 2013 11:42:32 AM UTC-7, Douglas Richardson wrote:

There seems to be evidence on both sides of this question which is not mentioned here, but can lead to a more definite conclusion.

The National Archives record E 210/11104 mentioned above is dated 1 Sept 1440 to 31 Aug 1441, as can be seen here:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/s/res?_q=E+210%2F11104&_sd=yyyy&_ed=yyyy
Although this MAY be the Thomas Strangways who married Katherine Neville, I don't see that we can rule out that this is the other Thomas Strangways mentioned in 1450 in items in the Court of Common Pleas (assuming those items are dated correctly).

Speaking of visitation pedigrees, it's worth mentioning that Clay's edition of Dugdale's 1664-5 visitation does call Katherine Neville's husband SIR Thomas Neville. Admittedly a later visitation, but it should at least be noted in considering the matter.

There appear to be three references to Katherine Neville's 2nd husband in CP - all of them calling him SIR Thomas: Beaumont (2:62), Grey of Codnor (6:131), and Norfolk (9:167). The Norfolk reference is particularly useful, as it includes a footnote citing the pardon of 27 Jan 1441/2 for marrying without a license (which is mentioned in Prof. Archer's ODNB article cited by Brad). The citation for the pardon is to the Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1441-46, available here (see pages 32, 50, 56, and 61):
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=FZY9AAAAMAAJ

All four of these items refer to Katherine Neville's husband as "Thomas Strangways, esquire". This seems to be better (i.e., more conclusive) evidence that he was not a knight, despite the CP references, the visitation pedigrees, and the ambiguous National Archives record of of 1440/1.